Author Topic: Too Little Too Late  (Read 798 times)

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Offline Iamrational

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Too Little Too Late
« on: November 24, 2011, 01:29:49 AM »
This is something that drives me crazy. I am laid back, easy going. I don't respond to almost all Christian rhetoric. However, whenever I hear this type of comment I just lose it.

Tonight a twin engine plane crashed into a mountain. It is such a sad story it makes me ill. There were 3 kids going home for Thanksgiving ages 5-9. Hurts me to even type it, but it gets worse.

I feel for these families so much. I can't imagine what they are going through. I have two small children. I don't know what I would want to hear from anyone, but I can tell you what I would not want to hear.

The last thing I would want to hear is "We will be praying for them." Or "Sweetie God Bless you and your family"

I know they mean well. They really care. Seriously though? Too little too late. How about you could have prayed for it never to happen. When you say God bless you it should mean oh God don't let it happen in the first. I know that is hindsight, but remember what is God? That's right.

Like I said most things no worries. Say all the garbage you want. That one gets me everytime. Any accident or tragedy. Here comes the praying. Oy. Thanks for listening.

Offline NonReligious

Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2011, 04:49:27 AM »
Or the other thing, when a terrible accident happens, lot of people die, someone luckily survives, and then they claim that the survival of this particular individual was a "miracle". Praise the Lord and so on...

What about all the other people that didn't survive in the accident? Was that a "miracle" too? Or maybe they just don't count?

Offline plethora

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2011, 06:37:56 AM »
I'm one of those people who wants to be left alone when I'm grieving. I don't want people's sympathy, I don't want anyone to bring it up. Just let me grieve and I'll get over it on my own.

Now, I've had the occasional "I know you don't believe in god but I'll pray for you" from family members. I usually just nod ... once I said "If you want to pray that's fine but you don't need to tell me about it.".

The greatest tragedy that could ever happen to me would be to lose my child. I don't think I would ever be able to get over that. If someone came to me with "I'll pray" I would probably snap and punch them in the fucking face. A bit harsh I know ... but I know myself and in that situation it would be best to just stay the fuck away from me.
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2011, 08:35:08 AM »

The last thing I would want to hear is "We will be praying for them." Or "Sweetie God Bless you and your family"

I know they mean well. They really care. Seriously though? Too little too late. How about you could have prayed for it never to happen. When you say God bless you it should mean oh God don't let it happen in the first. I know that is hindsight, but remember what is God? That's right.

Like I said most things no worries. Say all the garbage you want. That one gets me everytime. Any accident or tragedy. Here comes the praying. Oy. Thanks for listening.

Just recently there was another thread on this topic.

Some atheists can handle it, some atheists cannot. For me, it's like hearing nails on a chalk board and I want to just cover my ears and run the other way. I find it very annoying and will usually make that known immediately in a straightforward and appropriate way, no matter who it is or what the situation.

It's one of the most condescending and innappropriate things a person can say to surviving family members who have lost 3 of their little children members. "God bless you and I'll be praying for you"........

What they're really saying is "" I know right now you can't understand this tragedy, but I do, and so I'll speak with god on your behalf and ask him to help you get over your grief and to understand that he saw fit for his own reasons to allow your children to die horrifically, and to show you also that--first and foremost--all things work for god's glory, and secondly for the good of them that love the lord.""

Does it get anymore tasteless and pig-ignorant than that ? >:(
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Offline jetson

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2011, 08:44:24 AM »
Golf...I find myself less tolerant of religious speak lately, and even my wife noticed.  She thinks I need to chill, and it's hard for me to explain how the feeling is getting more visceral.  I'm not even sure why?

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2011, 09:19:49 AM »
This is something that drives me crazy. I am laid back, easy going. I don't respond to almost all Christian rhetoric. However, whenever I hear this type of comment I just lose it.

Tonight a twin engine plane crashed into a mountain. It is such a sad story it makes me ill. There were 3 kids going home for Thanksgiving ages 5-9. Hurts me to even type it, but it gets worse.

I feel for these families so much. I can't imagine what they are going through. I have two small children. I don't know what I would want to hear from anyone, but I can tell you what I would not want to hear.

The last thing I would want to hear is "We will be praying for them." Or "Sweetie God Bless you and your family"

I know they mean well. They really care. Seriously though? Too little too late. How about you could have prayed for it never to happen. When you say God bless you it should mean oh God don't let it happen in the first. I know that is hindsight, but remember what is God? That's right.

Like I said most things no worries. Say all the garbage you want. That one gets me everytime. Any accident or tragedy. Here comes the praying. Oy. Thanks for listening.

It is my opinion that showing sympathy, like teaching, is best when tailored to the individual.  For some theists, knowing that many are praying for their well-being and emotional recovery from the tragedy is comforting.  For other theists, such statements are tolerated.  For most atheists, invoking the name of God in a statement of sympathy is, in my opinion anyway, rude at the very least.  I honestly believe, as a theist, I can express sympathy and concern to an atheist who is going through personal loss and not mention God or prayer in the statement.  I will pray for them but see no reason to announce it to the atheist. 

Maybe I'm not on the most solid theological footing with such a position.  But I find it difficult to believe the God I understand and believe in will applaud my efforts to comfort someone who is at the opposite pole of my faith by kicking sand in their face.

My two cents worth.  A very interesting post, Iamrational.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2011, 10:05:37 AM »
Golf...I find myself less tolerant of religious speak lately, and even my wife noticed.  She thinks I need to chill, and it's hard for me to explain how the feeling is getting more visceral.  I'm not even sure why?

Hey Jet  :)

I think it's more than likely a result of us taking our atheist position more seriously than others and the fact that we're quite active with our participation in keeping up with the goings on and shenanigans committed in the world of theism.

I find that my internet participation and going to the various websites and blogs that I do, plus reading books, keeps things fresh in my mind and my level of disdain elevated all the time for the doctrines of religion and the foolish statements of people who have religious faith.

The more I understand how nonsensical and harmful religious belief is, the less tolerant I become of it.

I think it's safe to say that atheists who are the opposite of what you or I might be, are simply not as interested in or concerned about the goings on in the various religions of the world, so they do not form a desire to be active or confrontational against the beliefs or statements of people of religious faith.

Cheers
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 10:07:47 AM by gonegolfing »
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2011, 10:13:02 AM »

Maybe I'm not on the most solid theological footing with such a position.  But I find it difficult to believe the God I understand and believe in will applaud my efforts to comfort someone who is at the opposite pole of my faith by kicking sand in their face.

My two cents worth.  A very interesting post, Iamrational.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

That's a pretty good footing to be on from what I can see.

Now if we could just get you to see that there is no such thing as heavenly applause in the first place.  ;)

Cheers mate.
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Offline wright

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2011, 10:28:53 AM »

It is my opinion that showing sympathy, like teaching, is best when tailored to the individual.  For some theists, knowing that many are praying for their well-being and emotional recovery from the tragedy is comforting.  For other theists, such statements are tolerated.  For most atheists, invoking the name of God in a statement of sympathy is, in my opinion anyway, rude at the very least.  I honestly believe, as a theist, I can express sympathy and concern to an atheist who is going through personal loss and not mention God or prayer in the statement.  I will pray for them but see no reason to announce it to the atheist. 


Wise words, OCG. I wish more theists were like you and took Matthew 6: 5-8 as their guide.

What strikes me about such theist presumption is the lack of real empathy; the assumption that announcing prayer on someone's behalf is a universal balm even among unbelievers. It's a kind of coping mechanism that helps the one praying avoid considering what pain the survivors of tragedy are enduring.
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Offline Iamrational

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2011, 12:10:32 PM »
Or the other thing, when a terrible accident happens, lot of people die, someone luckily survives, and then they claim that the survival of this particular individual was a "miracle". Praise the Lord and so on...

What about all the other people that didn't survive in the accident? Was that a "miracle" too? Or maybe they just don't count?

Good point. That to me just comes off as selfish and egotistic.

I don't have any issues with comfort. I think it is great to console someone in pain. The problem comes with the absence of tact when a theist says God bless or mentions prayer. Prayer is not so clear because they could hit home with another denomination.

It reminds me of that uncomfortable situation when someone asks a woman when she is due, and in fact she is not pregnant. I know that is hyperbole but it gives a similar uncomfortable reaction and possible an angry one at that.

It is tough because Jesus freaks can be very comfortable when you need it most. In this country especially we are so out numbered that it doesn't make sense just to say well play it safe and don't use the God phrases when consoling someone. More times than not they would be correct in using those comments.

Funny thing about all of this is most of the time or more times than not, the comments are empty. I mean that in terms of the confidence of the person offering the prayers that they will be of use or effective. Think about it, when we went to church we never received anything from prayer. We know it doesn't work. Church goers know deep inside it doesn't work. Shoot in writing this I remember now. I violated this rule. I would pray for people like that. I knew I was just talking to myself.

The Catholic church even does this EVERY Sunday. We had a spot during church when the priest would pray for all the important people of the church (of course) and then the chumps in the audience could shout out prayers for friends and family. After every person in a half dead monotone voice we would say something like "we pray to our lord" or "Thanks be to god" Good times you guys. Give it a try.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2011, 02:35:37 PM »

It is my opinion that showing sympathy, like teaching, is best when tailored to the individual.  For some theists, knowing that many are praying for their well-being and emotional recovery from the tragedy is comforting.  For other theists, such statements are tolerated.  For most atheists, invoking the name of God in a statement of sympathy is, in my opinion anyway, rude at the very least.  I honestly believe, as a theist, I can express sympathy and concern to an atheist who is going through personal loss and not mention God or prayer in the statement.  I will pray for them but see no reason to announce it to the atheist. 

[/quote

Wise words, OCG. I wish more theists were like you and took Matthew 6: 5-8 as their guide.

What strikes me about such theist presumption is the lack of real empathy; the assumption that announcing prayer on someone's behalf is a universal balm even among unbelievers. It's a kind of coping mechanism that helps the one praying avoid considering what pain the survivors of tragedy are enduring.

Based on my experiences, I am afraid you are correct.  But not everyone is cut out to be empathetic.  At the risk of insulting everyone on this website, I also feel that ANYONE (atheist or theist) who reaches out to comfort ANYONE (atheist or theist) who is suffering some kind of emotional or physical pain is performing a ministry. 

Now before you begin typing feverishly to point out my flawed logic, keep in mind the first definition of the word "minister" (per Webster's on-line dictionary) is "agent".  And the first definition of the word "agent" (again per Webster's on-line dictionary) is "one that acts or exerts power."    I argue that when comforting a person one is acting to help that person know they are not alone; that in some way you share their pain.  If your words or actions help allay that person's suffering, then I think you have also exerted power. 

Therefore, it seems to me that empathetic atheists can be just as effective ministers as empathetic theists depending, of course, on what is said or done by the empathetic person. 

Hopefully, this little lecture does not ruffle feathers.  Perhaps, it even has an "aha!" moment for some.  Who knows? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2011, 02:37:57 PM »

Maybe I'm not on the most solid theological footing with such a position.  But I find it difficult to believe the God I understand and believe in will applaud my efforts to comfort someone who is at the opposite pole of my faith by kicking sand in their face.

My two cents worth.  A very interesting post, Iamrational.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

That's a pretty good footing to be on from what I can see.

Now if we could just get you to see that there is no such thing as heavenly applause in the first place.  ;)

Cheers mate.

I appreciate your tolerance of this old theist on your website.  So far as seeing the atheistic light, at this point in time I'd say it is not bloody likely.  :)

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2011, 08:47:56 PM »
It is my opinion that showing sympathy, like teaching, is best when tailored to the individual.  For some theists, knowing that many are praying for their well-being and emotional recovery from the tragedy is comforting.  For other theists, such statements are tolerated.  For most atheists, invoking the name of God in a statement of sympathy is, in my opinion anyway, rude at the very least.  I honestly believe, as a theist, I can express sympathy and concern to an atheist who is going through personal loss and not mention God or prayer in the statement.  I will pray for them but see no reason to announce it to the atheist.

A very rare position to hold. Nearly every theist will see this as an opportunity to teach about god, the healing power of jesus, the reason for prayer, etc. It's very counterproductive unless the person shares the same exact beliefs.
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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2011, 06:08:13 AM »
This is something that drives me crazy. I am laid back, easy going. I don't respond to almost all Christian rhetoric. However, whenever I hear this type of comment I just lose it.

Tonight a twin engine plane crashed into a mountain. It is such a sad story it makes me ill. There were 3 kids going home for Thanksgiving ages 5-9. Hurts me to even type it, but it gets worse.

I feel for these families so much. I can't imagine what they are going through. I have two small children. I don't know what I would want to hear from anyone, but I can tell you what I would not want to hear.

The last thing I would want to hear is "We will be praying for them." Or "Sweetie God Bless you and your family"

I know they mean well. They really care. Seriously though? Too little too late. How about you could have prayed for it never to happen. When you say God bless you it should mean oh God don't let it happen in the first. I know that is hindsight, but remember what is God? That's right.

Like I said most things no worries. Say all the garbage you want. That one gets me everytime. Any accident or tragedy. Here comes the praying. Oy. Thanks for listening.

Perhaps the belief in God allows these statements you personally detest to bring comfort to others in a way you do not understand?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 11:10:14 AM »
Perhaps the belief in God allows these statements you personally detest to bring comfort to others in a way you do not understand?

I think many of us understand why it brings comfort to some.  A claim that "I'll be praying to Krishna for the dead" is, I'm sure, comforting to Hindus. Humans love to feel like they are being taken care of.  However, I don't believe that's the only point of the OP.   Prayer fails *always* to change anything except perhaps a feeling.  Being in a majority Christian nation, I can guess that the parents of the children, or someone probably prayed that they got to their destination safely.  That prayer obviously failed miserably.  So why continue with a lie that benefits no one, but only gives false hope?
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 11:42:41 AM »
I identify personally with most of the posts on this thread.

Yet it's also hard the other way...when theists come and tell me their younger brother died a painful death of cancer and then they something about how 'Johnny's with God now...' or some other nonsense...

I want to be sympathetic and helpful to them, but for a micro-second I stammer while trying to make myself utter something in agreement. 

I don't go about trying to convert people or anything like that.  I don't want to pour any salt on someone's wounds either. 

It seems to work best when I say something about grief or I am sorry for your loss or whatever...

But I tell you, it's awkward sometimes.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2011, 11:57:49 AM »
Perhaps the belief in God allows these statements you personally detest to bring comfort to others in a way you do not understand?

Oh, quite probably.  And for a Christian to say it to another Christian is fine.

Tell me...how would you feel is someone came up to you when your children had died and said "I'll be praying to Allah for them"?

Would it comfort you?  If not, why not?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2011, 12:11:38 PM »
Perhaps the belief in God allows these statements you personally detest to bring comfort to others in a way you do not understand?

Oh, quite probably.  And for a Christian to say it to another Christian is fine.

Tell me...how would you feel is someone came up to you when your children had died and said "I'll be praying to Allah for them"?

Would it comfort you?  If not, why not?

I certainly would not be offended, and I think there would be a certain amount of understanding there in the sincerity of their empathy.  However, that is coming from a common background of faith.  Not sure if you'll understand my viewpoint entirely, but in a sense their words would not be a comfort in and of themselves, but rather they would be a reminder of the "comfort" that would come from my personal hope in Jesus.  What little comfort to come in such tragic circumstances I believe would come from my hope in Christ.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2011, 12:14:12 PM »
<snip>

You know, I never understood this[1], maybe you can explain it to me.
Why do you feel sad when someone dies? You should be exhilarated! If they're a good person, they're up in heaven right now, happy for eternity. If they're a bad person, they're in hell where (your religion claims) they belong.
 1. In the sense that I've never had a theist explain this to me. I have my own thoughts on this matter.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2011, 12:26:43 PM »
I certainly would not be offended, and I think there would be a certain amount of understanding there in the sincerity of their empathy.  However, that is coming from a common background of faith.  Not sure if you'll understand my viewpoint entirely, but in a sense their words would not be a comfort in and of themselves, but rather they would be a reminder of the "comfort" that would come from my personal hope in Jesus.  What little comfort to come in such tragic circumstances I believe would come from my hope in Christ.

I'm curious on how the words wouldnt' be a comfort to you "in and of themselves" which I would think one human empathizing with another.  From what you've said here, it seems that you would only take them as a reminder that you are the only "right" one when it comes to religion.  That seems rather arrogant considering that neither of you have any evidence that you are correct in the least.
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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2011, 01:34:51 PM »
<snip>

You know, I never understood this[1], maybe you can explain it to me.
Why do you feel sad when someone dies? You should be exhilarated! If they're a good person, they're up in heaven right now, happy for eternity. If they're a bad person, they're in hell where (your religion claims) they belong.
 1. In the sense that I've never had a theist explain this to me. I have my own thoughts on this matter.

That's an excellent question actually.  I think it is the sense of loss that brings sadness.  Much in the way that I am sad when anyone I love or care for is removed from my life, especially beyond control.  Death, however temporary, is still a ceasing or severing of all relationship and communication until one is reunited.  So, ripping out that relationship, however temporary, is still painful.

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2011, 01:37:47 PM »
I'm curious on how the words wouldnt' be a comfort to you "in and of themselves" which I would think one human empathizing with another.  From what you've said here, it seems that you would only take them as a reminder that you are the only "right" one when it comes to religion.  That seems rather arrogant considering that neither of you have any evidence that you are correct in the least.

Velkyn, I should clarify my statements further regarding "in and of themselves".  It certainly does not mean I wouldn't appreciate the empathy on a human experience level, I believe I would (not having gone through this particular experience).  What I meant was that "Allah" would not be the source of that comfort, but rather hope in Jesus.  Though, I would also not be offended at anyone's attempt to empathize regardless of their religious beliefs or lack there of.

Offline Iamrational

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2011, 01:38:58 PM »


I certainly would not be offended, and I think there would be a certain amount of understanding there in the sincerity of their empathy. 

When I was a catholic I was never offended by other religions. Reason being was ignorance. It is funny but I thought other religions were just a translation of my true religion. Seriously I know I am not the only one. I figured Allah or whoever else was still the same god or Jesus, just a different language. Sad but true.

Another thought that comes to me is faith is gravy and life has all the answers until it is your 9 year old that dies. Then it is WTF God?

Ultimately, it comes down to a few fundamental questions. Does prayer work? No. Will the clan admit it? No. Is it an insult to say Jesus will answer your prayers, after your child just died in the protection of said Jesus? Yes!

There is nothing wrong with sympathizing with someone. Oh yes my heart hurts for you and your family. I would be devastated. Enough said. You say you would not be offended with the Allah. Possible. I won't call you out on it. I guarantee you have a line. So where is it? Tell me when you would be insulted. Positive thought blah blah. What if I said sun god? what if I said Satan will protect you? Yes that is hyperbole but my point is rather than getting into a situation like asking a fat girl when she is due (when she is not), just say my thoughts are with you and be supportive like that. No reason to possibly offend. I would never in a 1000 years want to spout truth on your sad moment by saying something out of line like don't worry brother or sister, your child will decompose and be absorbed into the earth and become a beautiful flower.

Believers, where is your line?

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2011, 01:40:59 PM »
That's an excellent question actually.  I think it is the sense of loss that brings sadness.  Much in the way that I am sad when anyone I love or care for is removed from my life, especially beyond control.  Death, however temporary, is still a ceasing or severing of all relationship and communication until one is reunited.  So, ripping out that relationship, however temporary, is still painful.

You'd rather they be with you and mildly happy sometimes rather than in heaven and entirely happy all the time?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2011, 01:51:05 PM »
Velkyn, I should clarify my statements further regarding "in and of themselves".  It certainly does not mean I wouldn't appreciate the empathy on a human experience level, I believe I would (not having gone through this particular experience).  What I meant was that "Allah" would not be the source of that comfort, but rather hope in Jesus.  Though, I would also not be offended at anyone's attempt to empathize regardless of their religious beliefs or lack there of.
Understood, though I would think that the source of the comfort is the human, not some hope in some magical afterlife.  I do wonder if you realize that they take the same comfort in Allah which I’m guessing you don’t believe in(notwithstanding the claims that Allah and God are the same, they obviously aren’t as soon as Mohammed appears on the scene).  Assuming you are indeed a Christian, have you considered believing in any other religions?
Your other post said that
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That's an excellent question actually.  I think it is the sense of loss that brings sadness.  Much in the way that I am sad when anyone I love or care for is removed from my life, especially beyond control.  Death, however temporary, is still a ceasing or severing of all relationship and communication until one is reunited.  So, ripping out that relationship, however temporary, is still painful.
I’ve seen this argument before and it always strikes me as pure nonsense.  In my experience, the grief that Christians show over death is far far more than they show over a parting.  I watched my sister-in-law have to be physically restrained from her mothers’s casket howling.  I know she didn’t do that when my husband went off to the service for a few years.  I know that I also experience a grief far far greater when someone close to me dies than I do when they leave for a while, even if it’s years.   This argument seems to be a rather weak attempt to try to convince atheists that theists really do believe when it certainly doesn’t seem that way.  If there was only a brief time, in comparision to eternity, that you will be separated, then why the shrieking?  Why not a great wake, saying “good for Johnny, he volunteered to clear land mines and he’s with God now. I’ll see him in about 40 years.” and a bittersweet longing?   
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2011, 02:26:50 PM »
.  If there was only a brief time, in comparision to eternity, that you will be separated, then why the shrieking?  Why not a great wake, saying “good for Johnny, he volunteered to clear land mines and he’s with God now. I’ll see him in about 40 years.” and a bittersweet longing?
That sounds like the Christians in my family.

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2011, 02:50:24 PM »
Assuming you are indeed a Christian, have you considered believing in any other religions?

Have I studied some other religions?  Yes.  Have I considered believing in them? No.

Your other post said that
Quote
That's an excellent question actually.  I think it is the sense of loss that brings sadness.  Much in the way that I am sad when anyone I love or care for is removed from my life, especially beyond control.  Death, however temporary, is still a ceasing or severing of all relationship and communication until one is reunited.  So, ripping out that relationship, however temporary, is still painful.
I’ve seen this argument before and it always strikes me as pure nonsense.

Why would it strike you as nonsense to mourn an extended loss?  Especially when all communication and relationship is severed?  We see examples of this to a lesser extent, when people are incarcerated away from family for example.  When a forcible physical separation occurs that is beyond control, I think that sense of "loss" is magnified, regardless of the hope of a future reunion.  If one day the government came and stripped my kids from me and said, don't worry, you can see them again in 20, 30, or 40 years from now.  Would I not grieve, even though I know that "one day" I'll see them again?  The sense of loss would be heartbreaking for me, of that I'm certain.

Offline Omen

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2011, 03:06:45 PM »
Why would it strike you as nonsense to mourn an extended loss?

Presumably they've gone to a better place, a magical fairy land of whatever arbitrary fantasy you believe it is heaven to be that is by virtue of being saved infinitely more valuable than still living.  Death should then be met with nothing but absolute praise.

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We see examples of this..

Really?  You're going to insert an analogy where someone you know and care about is gone to a place that they are better off in compared to being with you and you will see them again regardless?

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to a lesser extent, when people are incarcerated

Prison is supposed to be an analogy for heaven? Prison is an analogy for being saved?

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WIf one day the government came and stripped my kids from me and said, d

Having your children kidnapped into social services is an analogy for heaven? This is an analogy for being saved within 'gods grace'?

If you treated your beliefs as if they were actually 'true', then there would be no reason to mourn and any mourning on your part is your own selfish desire.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Too Little Too Late
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2011, 03:11:23 PM »
Have I studied some other religions?  Yes.  Have I considered believing in them? No.
Why not?  Why is your religion the only “right” religion? Oh and BTW, which sect are you?
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Why would it strike you as nonsense to mourn an extended loss?  Especially when all communication and relationship is severed?  We see examples of this to a lesser extent, when people are incarcerated away from family for example.  When a forcible physical separation occurs that is beyond control, I think that sense of "loss" is magnified, regardless of the hope of a future reunion.  If one day the government came and stripped my kids from me and said, don't worry, you can see them again in 20, 30, or 40 years from now.  Would I not grieve, even though I know that "one day" I'll see them again?  The sense of loss would be heartbreaking for me, of that I'm certain.
I’ve told you why I find that your claim that grieving extended loss is not the same as death.  Again, why the shrieking in *ONLY* the case of death and not a long absence?  I see plenty of women on my bus who have husbands in prison who aren’t wailing like they do at funerals.  And goign to heaven?  I'd be jealous not weeping!  You make claims, theway, but I’ve not seen any evidence that they are true in any way.  I would argue that your example of having one’s children taken away is in essence different from someone going away for job, etc.  Children change into different people as they age, so you are indeed losing something that you will never get back. 

I do understand that humans aren’t the most rational of creatures.  Even the bible has the apostles not really believing in much.  They had to be shown again and again that JC was who he claimed.  It’s a shame that this god can’t do the same for modern believers as he did for Thomas.  That would indeed keep a lot of people like me from chucking religion on the heap. 
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