Author Topic: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails  (Read 7156 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #174 on: December 09, 2011, 09:52:20 AM »
As usual, you dig deep.  Salvation is on a personal level.  I'm sorry I make it so simple, but, you can come up with the most complicated hypothetical situation imaginable.  Bottom line is: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved".

I've sat beside death beds,  I have found nothing else comforting.

I've been avoiding this thread for awhile becuase it was an 'angels dancing on the head on a pin' argument as far as I was concerned, but this I just want to address.

What you or other might find comforting is essentially saying "what you want to believe" What you want to believe does not mean it corresponds to reality. This applies every bit to us as it does to you, as it does to someone who believes in another religious/mystical tradition.

"Reality does not give a shit about your feelings," is the appropriate, if vulgar, quote here.



An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline relativetruth

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #175 on: December 09, 2011, 09:58:20 AM »
Onestewart

Would you be available for a test which would indicate your ability to predict which people, who currently call themselves Christians, are deluding themselves and are likely to turn atheist in the future?

Your predictions will be made in secret.

As a pilot to the test I propose you can PM me all your predictions on all the people who self-identify as theists on this site.
Later we can publish a proper statistical analysis of the results.

Remember we are not testing God here we are testing you!

Maybe God has sent me  ;)
God(s) exist and are imaginary

Offline Historicity

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #176 on: December 09, 2011, 02:34:44 PM »
Would you be available for a test which would indicate your ability to predict which people, who currently call themselves Christians, are deluding themselves and are likely to turn atheist in the future?
And which Scotsmen will turn out to be child molestors because No True Scotsman is a child molestor.

Offline onesteward

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #177 on: December 10, 2011, 07:22:41 PM »
The only way his argument works is if we are right.

Right about which one? The Holy Spirit exists or The Holy Spirit doesn't exist?

If it does not exist. 

 I think my point stands either way.

However regarding the claim that if there was no Holy Spirit ( angelic apparition)as you say,and He couldn't have been "with us".I agree. Some of the former Christians- now atheists- don't seem to.
No, we all agree on that.

As far as you know it's universal--no atheist believes  The Holy Spirit exists. That is what I would expect.


 What we do not agree on is your definition of a xian.  If we use your definition, then we would say you are not a xian either.

 I'm taking that to mean the  John 3 : 3-7, born again description.
If so, then I agree 100%, none of you ( atheists) could believe I'm a Christian.
My position has been the same, I'm a Christian based on an action undertaken on my behalf by God Himself. That hasn't changed since I was " born again" originally. If  for some reason I decided to become an atheist I would then have to drop any idea that Bible God even existed never mind "saved" me.

You might do that, but I doubt it.
But in order to call myself " atheist" wouldn't the fundamental 1st move be to claim that deities do not exist?


  I think it is more likely you would look back on your days as a believer with mild embarrassment and possibly a tinge of anger and think, "what a dupe I was!" You would realize that it was not some mystical essence that made you a xian, but what you believed. 

Which is kind of comical in light of you saying this :

" That is the point, I think.  You are making commentary about our experiences as if you know any of us.  You don't.  And you are doing this to diminish us in your own mind. "

What's gravy for the goose is gravy for the gander.


  You would realize that it was not some mystical essence that made you a xian, but what you believed. 

No that isn't how it would go.No God would mean to me no Christianity.I wouldn't be looking for a back door in.

You might also be a little peeved if someone came along and said something along the lines of "well, you were never really a xian anyway."  But not because you don't like his definition.  It would be because who  is he to judge your experiences?  Who is he to say how sincere you were? Who the fuck is he to say he knows the inner working of your mind?
my bolding

Amen!! Preach it Brother!!

Hold on ...Got caught up in the emotionalism there for a sec.Who he might be is someone who heard me say "I've been born-again" still claim to have been born-again, which would need a Deity to be true, and then tell him I am an atheist at present.Who he might be is someone who recognizes that I'd be claiming two "opposites" to exist in the same place at the same time.


Either there really is a saintly spook, or there is not.  If not, then onesteward is right, we were never really xians[1]. But neither is he.  Owie.
 1. as defined by him

Correct- no Holy Spirit = no Christians.


So then what should we call people of your... ilk?  Since there is no holy spigot for you to be "reborn in", you are clearly not a xian.  Yet, you say you are.  So, what should we call you?  Something you would not mind being called, I mean.
I still regard myself as a Christian..unlike you I do believe  The Holy Spirit is alive and well...always has been , always will be. But as for you. call me whatever you like.
 
 


Being on this side of the fence changes your perspective.   And this whole stupid point is largely about perspective.  From our perspective, your definition puts True Xians in the same category as leprechauns, mermaids and Santa. 

 So a claimant saying they were a "True Christian" is the same as saying they were--for real-- a leprechaun? Someone saying this for example :

" The reason I mention this in my writings is to point out that I was a true believer. Christians sometimes accuse me of having been a phony: "If you really knew Jesus, you would never have left him." But I make a case that I was really a true believer . . . I did believe it . . . I did believe I was seeing miracles. And if I was not a true Christian, then nobody is".
db
Like Dan Barker says here....repeatedly?
 Isn't that like him, according to you, saying over and over " I was a leprechaun, I was!! Really!One good rainbow!I'll show ya.

This from an Assemblies of God minister.If anyone is going to believe in The Holy Spirit it's him!

You don't find it odd that he would still insist on having had that experience?


We now say we did not have the spooky guy with us because we now do not think there is such a thing.  But we could be wrong.  In fact, you think we are wrong.  So you are taking our perspective - something you disagree with - just so you can say "you were never xians".  Kind of a shitty and dishonest thing to do, stewie.
No not that at all. I think scripture is plain. By claiming to be atheists you forfeit the right to claim Christianity.John 3 , which quotes Jesus about what it takes to be a Christian is plain enough.There are many others as well.I just didn't know if atheists understood the ' depth' as it were of their claim.It seems as if  several won't let go of what they now say is...was...a delusion.


  Why do you prefer that route when you could just as easily and more charitably say "well, I think there is a holy spirit, so I grant that maybe you were xians.  Maybe the HS was with you, but maybe not.  But if it was, maybe it left?"  Why is that so hard?

 Hey, I'm human.If it were up to me I'd go 'universalist' or something.One that gives everybody a free pass.I got saved by reading the Bible.I believe what Jesus did and so I believe what He said.All you are suggesting is compromise, a little of this with a little of that...that doesn't seem acceptable in Scripture.
[
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #178 on: December 10, 2011, 07:53:34 PM »
I'm taking that to mean the  John 3 : 3-7, born again description.

Ok if you stick to the position that you have to be a "True Christian" to really be a christian, I invite you to tell us how to become a "True Christian" in the ways we haven't tried. I mean, if it is really hard to do, that would make god a dick right off wouldn't it? If god is really real, then I really would like to know him. I am a logical and internally honest person. If god's existence is factual, I truly want to know this. So, without further ado, tell me what I did wrong when I prayed to Jesus to save my soul and begged his forgiveness for my sins and was baptized in his name, and then believed in him without doubt for many years. I was a kid at the time and I didn't technically own much if anything, but I did give to the poor and I did do many charitable works especially for several poor widow ladies in our area. ( I was a preacher's kid.)

Can you tell me what I did wrong? Was it a bad baptism? It was in a church's baptismal and not a river, like jesus'. Does that matter? I don't recall seeing any white doves then, but I do remember the exhilaration and surge of emotion.   
So what did I do wrong?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #179 on: December 11, 2011, 02:41:31 AM »
Hello onesteward.  I see you're still more interested in arguing the "whether atheists were ever really Christians" question - rather than the "whether Christians were ever really Christians" one.

Let me say it again: how Velkyn et al felt when they believed they were Christians is (so far as I can tell from the thread so far) exactly how you feel now.

Is there anything you can give us - anything at all - that someone could have used while Velkyn believed she was a Christian to be able to say "yes, Onesteward has truly been born again - but Velkyn, poor girl, is just deluding herself"?

I can only assume, from your continued silence on that question, that you have nothing.

And if that is the case.....
Why should I for one moment accept your claim that there is, really, a Holy Spirit?
Why should you accept the claims of your fellow church members that they have, really, been entered by the Spirit?
And why should THEY accept YOUR claim that you too have, really been entered by the Spirit?

I can only assume, from your continued silence on that question, that you have nothing.

I can keep asking the questions, OS, and you can keep ignoring them.  All your refusal to answer does is confirm that there IS no way of telling a Christian from the deluded - and NO evidence that there is any such thing as a True Christian at all: something you keep asserting there really is.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 02:44:49 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #180 on: December 11, 2011, 07:11:08 AM »

I can only assume, from your continued silence on that question, that you have nothing.

I can keep asking the questions, OS, and you can keep ignoring them.  All your refusal to answer does is confirm that there IS no way of telling a Christian from the deluded - and NO evidence that there is any such thing as a True Christian at all: something you keep asserting there really is.

Ah, the essence of religion. Great for some mental hoop jumping, but when it comes to applying it in a meaningful, practical, useful way, it fails, even when it comes to applying faith to the faithful. I'm guessing that if he does answer, it will be something along the lines of "But if we were able to tell who really was a true believer, it would take away free will". The same free will that God told Adam he would die the same day for attaining. The same free will GOD NEVER WANTED US TO HAVE. I love how free will is such a "go to" argument for Christians, yet it was only attained through disobeying God (who was lying anyways).

I have been spending a lot of time reading KCrady's old posts[1], reposted by Screwtape, and something that KCrady mentions often has really stuck with me. He often points out that believers are having to do all of the weasel worded, circularly illogical hoop jumping to explain why the universe looks and acts exactly the way it would if there was no miracle working all powerful God, in spite of their claims of such a being existing and interacting with humanity on a daily basis. I think that this point that KCrady has made is easily among the most compelling statements I have ever heard in regards to believers. I think that is possibly why OneSteward hasn't responded to you on these questions yet. He's trying to find a hoop big enough that he can't miss it, no matter how desperate the leap. Unfortunately for him, we don't believe in imaginary hoops, either.
 1. 
For anyone reading this who, like me, is too new to remember these posts, it is well worth your time to read them. KCrady makes so many well organized, powerful, logical, and compelling arguments its just ridiculous. He looks at things in a way that is mind blowing yet self-evident once pointed out. He's like an Atheist Messiah, teaching the truth to save those troubled enough to believe that they have souls. Ok, I'll get off KCrady's dick now.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #181 on: December 11, 2011, 07:16:15 AM »
No not that at all. I think scripture is plain. By claiming to be atheists you forfeit the right to claim Christianity.

Can't believe you are still playing this game.

I'm not payed to teach argument, so I'll give you a free lesson. When you argue something, you have to argue it from one consistent point of view. That's generally the point of argument. Switching points of view as you go, generally does not convince your opposition.

From your PoV, God exists, so they can have been Christians. They are now deluded and believe Bible-God does not exist.

From our PoV, they cannot have been conservative Christians, because Bible-God does not exist. This is our PoV, not yours.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline onesteward

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #182 on: December 11, 2011, 12:39:22 PM »
Onestewart

Would you be available for a test which would indicate your ability to predict which people, who currently call themselves Christians, are deluding themselves and are likely to turn atheist in the future?

 We can skip over the formalities and I'll give you the answer right now...I am not able to predict that.


Your predictions will be made in secret.

No need.

As a pilot to the test I propose you can PM me all your predictions on all the people who self-identify as theists on this site.
Later we can publish a proper statistical analysis of the results.

Remember we are not testing God here we are testing you!
Seriously....Homework?

Maybe God has sent me  ;)

 Perhaps He has - He's able to save people out of much tougher places than this.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 01:11:49 PM by onesteward »
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline rickymooston

Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #183 on: December 11, 2011, 01:01:20 PM »
TruthSeeker - standard Christianity doesn't come with the belief one can tell whether or not somebody else experienced and accepted the holy spirit

Apparently, the bible does provide indicators to look for. If a person fails those tests, one can assert they, being doers of "evil" are not acting in accodance with the holy spirit.

No absolute test exists for somebody else's salvation.

However!  onesteward claims he really, really is a xian because he is now a receptacle for the hallowed haunt himself.

Somewhere in this wall thread of walls of text, he claimed he has never actually experienced the holy spirit but that he is now ready to receive it?

If the answer is yes, your post makes sense and I agree with your post. Otherwise, what you are saying here is crap and the work of a build of strawmen.  :police:

I liked your introduction where you tried to summarize his arguments though. That sounds intellectually honest. It sounds as if you are trying not to build strawmen.

The true Christian argument in its proper form contains no contradictions but it contains the claim one can know whether one is personally inhabited by his holiness or not. It goes without saying that most atheists, who used to be Christians interpreted brain chemical reactions as being the "holy spirit" but the argument would simply be they used the wrong self test. It assumes the holy spirit exists.

I agree its a bit of a silly definition of Christian because nobody can tell whether somebody else is a 'true" christian by the definition and it is in effect useless.

Carry on. Its an interesting discussion. Got to run



« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 01:02:53 PM by rickymooston »
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline onesteward

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #184 on: December 11, 2011, 02:22:50 PM »
No not that at all. I think scripture is plain. By claiming to be atheists you forfeit the right to claim Christianity.

Can't believe you are still playing this game.

That makes two of us.

I'm not payed to teach argument, so I'll give you a free lesson. When you argue something, you have to argue it from one consistent point of view. That's generally the point of argument. Switching points of view as you go, generally does not convince your opposition.

I don't think I did.I may have come across that way.


From your PoV, God exists, so they can have been Christians. They are now deluded and believe Bible-God does not exist.

I'm just saying- their  claim now is that "Bible -God does not exist".The claim is the same whether I think they are deluded or not.


From our PoV, they cannot have been conservative Christians, because Bible-God does not exist. This is our PoV, not yours.

Exactly my point, thank you.Why are any atheists still persisting with the claim that they were once conservative Christians ( if by that you mean John 3: 3-7)type of Christians as I've been referring to, Shouldn't their POV be the same as yours?

 I  appreciate the " Pro Bono" work  BTW.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #185 on: December 11, 2011, 02:34:36 PM »
So answer the question, onesteward, What did we do wrong? How did you do it, when we failed? Where was the mix-up? Isn't this what the great commission compels you to tell us?
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Offline relativetruth

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #186 on: December 11, 2011, 03:10:58 PM »
Onestewart

Would you be available for a test which would indicate your ability to predict which people, who currently call themselves Christians, are deluding themselves and are likely to turn atheist in the future?

 We can skip over the formalities and I'll give you the answer right now...I am not able to predict that.


If you are able to admit that you cannot spot a 'True Christiantm' in anybody else how can you be soo sure that you are not deluded in your own belief?

What method are you using to judge yourself which is different to how you judge others?

If you are sometimes unconvinced when somebody says that they are 'born again' and is a believer why do you not apply the same skepticism to your own beliefs?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 03:13:45 PM by relativetruth »
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #187 on: December 11, 2011, 04:48:03 PM »
TruthSeeker - standard Christianity doesn't come with the belief one can tell whether or not somebody else experienced and accepted the holy spirit

Apparently, the bible does provide indicators to look for. If a person fails those tests, one can assert they, being doers of "evil" are not acting in accodance with the holy spirit.

No absolute test exists for somebody else's salvation.

???

I have just checked all 7 pages of posts to see where I said this. My only other post so far besides this current one was mocking how somone about to die is suddenly "in the know" about the existence of God, and that it is impossible that someone about to die converting to whatever could simply be acting out of fear of the unknown. ie. Someone about to die converted to Islam therefore there really is a OneTrueGod™ named Allah! Replace Islam with any major religion of that particular region, and Allah with it's particular brand of sky boogieman and you will get what happens everywhere in the world. It would be done so, out of fear, coercion, or to put the superstitious folk, 'at peace/ease.'

But to respond to your point, yes the Bible does claim, that if you believe in Jesus, you can perform not only ALL his miracles but even bigger and better ones because He is not here. The Christian is Jesus' representative and they are supposed to represent. John 14:11-14

I think being able to drive out demons, cure the sick, raise the dead, turn water to wine, walk on water... just any one of these could qualify as an absolute test. If they do it in Jesus' name, they are True. If they do not, they are false, empowered by Satan himself.

Edit: Added Scrpiture verse.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 04:55:15 PM by TruthSeeker »

Offline screwtape

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #188 on: December 11, 2011, 06:46:03 PM »
I think my point stands either way.

Well, let's keep in mind you also believe in talking snakes, people living inside giant fish, and a wizard who despite being omnipotent cannot seem to rid his creation of something he despises (sin) no matter how many times he tries. So you really are not the best judge of what does or does not stand around here.


  I think it is more likely you would look back on your days as a believer with mild embarrassment and possibly a tinge of anger and think, "what a dupe I was!" You would realize that it was not some mystical essence that made you a xian, but what you believed. 

Which is kind of comical in light of you saying this :

If you were actually trying to understand me, which you clearly aren't, you would note the difference in how we each stated our positions.  You are making statements about us in rather absolute terms.  I preceded my statement above with "You might think think that", which you cut off as a separate reply.  I think moved ahead using qualifying language (which I bolded for you).  So you can take what you think is comical and put it right in your bottom.

No that isn't how it would go.

Again, you are talking out your ass.  You and I have both believed in god, the holy spirit, and all that jazz.  However, only one of us has the requisite experience to have some insight as to how it would go.  And it aint you. 

You are a virgin talking about how you would do this or that with some chic who was willing to let you put your dirty paws all over her.  But you don't really know until you've actually been there.  Maybe it would go how you think, and then again maybe it wouldn't.  From my experience, your perspective would be very different.  For one, that ridiculous passage from John that defines xians would strike you as ridiculous.

I still regard myself as a Christian..unlike you I do believe  The Holy Spirit is alive and well...always has been , always will be. But as for you. call me whatever you like.

faux xian?  deluded phoney?  religious twit?  obviously you cannot suffer us to call you xian.  So what should it be?
 
Being on this side of the fence changes your perspective.   And this whole stupid point is largely about perspective.  From our perspective, your definition puts True Xians in the same category as leprechauns, mermaids and Santa. 

 So a claimant saying they were a "True Christian" is the same as saying they were--for real-- a leprechaun? Someone saying this for example :
...
You don't find it odd that he would still insist on having had that experience?

No, troll.  You are doing a bait and switch.  You are assuming everyone is operating by your definition.  They are not.


It seems as if  several won't let go of what they now say is...was...a delusion.

Part of the delusion includes what the definition of a xian is. 

Hey, I'm human.If it were up to me I'd go 'universalist' or something.One that gives everybody a free pass.I got saved by reading the Bible.I believe what Jesus did and so I believe what He said.All you are suggesting is compromise, a little of this with a little of that...that doesn't seem acceptable in Scripture.

No, no.  You miss the point.  You could still hold the view that we were xian once.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #189 on: December 12, 2011, 08:46:33 AM »
OS, are you unable to address me directly?  It seems that as anfauglir has noted, you have nothing to support your baseless claims about me and my status.  AGain, no dear, by being an atheist now, does not mean I have ever forfeited the right to be called a Christian when I did honestly believe. 

I will say that it is quite entertaining to watch you in your desperation.   
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #190 on: December 12, 2011, 09:03:30 AM »
I'm going to hold off on any further replies to onesteward until he answers Anfauglir and velkyn.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #191 on: December 12, 2011, 09:10:15 AM »


From our PoV, they cannot have been conservative Christians, because Bible-God does not exist. This is our PoV, not yours.

Exactly my point, thank you.Why are any atheists still persisting with the claim that they were once conservative Christians ( if by that you mean John 3: 3-7)type of Christians as I've been referring to, Shouldn't their POV be the same as yours?

 I  appreciate the " Pro Bono" work  BTW.

I don't think anyone can successfully argue to have been a Christian (or be a Christian), if proof of Christianity involves resurrection at a future date. You cannot prove that you are a Christian, unless you can show me your proof of future resurrection. You may backslide tomorrow, so that means you will not get to the resurrection, which means you may not be a Christian, even now.

Given that there is no working proof that anyone is a Christian, all we have to work with are criterion given by the Bible, that is to say, you are Christian by your belief and works, (concomitant on some paperwork, such as baptism). Your belief and faith do not have to be backed up by anything. You can love God, without him apparently loving you back. It's not in the rules that you have to prove a God loves you back.

The statement that they were once Christian is apparently from your PoV and their old PoV, not their new PoV. Unless you can show some meaningful proof of Christianity, your quibble will remain just that, because only then can we speculate whether any of you were once Christian.

EDIT: Mind you, their new PoV is that Christians are just deluded, so that means all they have to do is prove that they were deluded. This is also tricky, without a proper definition, or certificate of non-resurrection.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 09:21:55 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #192 on: December 12, 2011, 11:57:21 AM »
Maybe God has sent me  ;)

 Perhaps He has - He's able to save people out of much tougher places than this.

....though it seems your god is quite unable to help you answer any of my questions.  Maybe this place IS too tough for him.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Samuelxcs

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #193 on: December 12, 2011, 12:04:22 PM »
Theists should make a decision on what they believe is real and actual reality before claiming they used to be atheists. One Christian said a while ago: "I used to be the biggest atheist of all time!, but now I have found hope in God". How did this happen? Did he publicly revolt against God even when people believed there was no God? If someone is to convert to a religion, they should have good reason, but there is no good reason for doing so. Also, there is no such thing as being the 'biggest atheist of all time'. It makes no sense at all.
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #194 on: December 12, 2011, 01:37:58 PM »
OS, are you unable to address me directly?  It seems that as anfauglir has noted, you have nothing to support your baseless claims about me and my status.  AGain, no dear, by being an atheist now, does not mean I have ever forfeited the right to be called a Christian when I did honestly believe. 
I will say that it is quite entertaining to watch you in your desperation.

 So you don't believe this post you made?

" The concept of grace as presented in Romans 9 makes the assumption that one is given grace first and then you can believe."

I can see where a Reformed denomination would make that a prominent position in salvation.It makes perfect sense, really.

My question now is :

 If you did indeed "honestly believe" wouldn't that be predicated on the fact that God gave you the grace to believe?That is your post on Romans 9.

 If , as an atheist, God or gods don't exist and in fact never existed,  where did you get the grace to "honestly believe" in the first place?




When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #195 on: December 12, 2011, 01:50:07 PM »
OS, are you unable to address me directly?  It seems that as anfauglir has noted, you have nothing to support your baseless claims about me and my status.  AGain, no dear, by being an atheist now, does not mean I have ever forfeited the right to be called a Christian when I did honestly believe. 
I will say that it is quite entertaining to watch you in your desperation.

 So you don't believe this post you made?

" The concept of grace as presented in Romans 9 makes the assumption that one is given grace first and then you can believe."

I can see where a Reformed denomination would make that a prominent position in salvation.It makes perfect sense, really.

My question now is :

 If you did indeed "honestly believe" wouldn't that be predicated on the fact that God gave you the grace to believe?That is your post on Romans 9.

 If , as an atheist, God or gods don't exist and in fact never existed,  where did you get the grace to "honestly believe" in the first place?

You've yet to show how you can determine how to differentiate between those that have gotten actual grace and those they only think they have. You are making the claim there is a difference. Show an objective way of determining that claim.

We are waiting for that answer....not additional restatements of the claim. They are not sufficient and could be construed as dodging the question.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #196 on: December 12, 2011, 02:21:05 PM »
OS, are you unable to address me directly?  It seems that as anfauglir has noted, you have nothing to support your baseless claims about me and my status.  AGain, no dear, by being an atheist now, does not mean I have ever forfeited the right to be called a Christian when I did honestly believe. 
I will say that it is quite entertaining to watch you in your desperation.
So you don't believe this post you made?
" The concept of grace as presented in Romans 9 makes the assumption that one is given grace first and then you can believe."
Oh this post?  I believe in what I actually wrote and not your attempts to edit it.
I do love how you keep insisting that your god is real and have yet shown that to be true.  How your sentence should read is “That- when we believe - a sovereign act of God is believed to saves us, seems to be one of the plainest and most agreed upon doctrines in Christendom.God Himself interacts with us to make us Christians.’  It’s also not universally agreed upon, that when we believe *then* God interacts with us to make us Christians. The concept of grace as presented in Romans 9 makes the assumption that one is given grace first and then you can believe.[/i Same with when JC says that there are some already intended to not be able to believe at all.
I’ve italiced what you tried to used on its own. It’s sweet that you took the time to attempt to quote mine me.  In this post, I am showing how your claims are just more Christian nonsense that contradicts your own bible and your fellow Christians. 

Sigh.  I believed in this once upon a time.  Again, this doesn’t mean that I can’t be an atheist now and a believer then.  OS, have you believed in something as true and then come to disbelieve it?  IF so, does that mean you never really believed in it in the first place? 

OS, your whole argument rests on if you can show that you are any more of a Christian now than I was then.   You’ve failed so far.  Care to try again, maybe without any good Christian lies and attempts to misrepresent people?   

Quote
I can see where a Reformed denomination would make that a prominent position in salvation.It makes perfect sense, really.
Really?  If it makes perfect sense, surely you can expand on this.  That’ll be fun, especially when I’ve shown you again attempting to twist my words. Tsk.
Quote
My question now is :
 If you did indeed "honestly believe" wouldn't that be predicated on the fact that God gave you the grace to believe?That is your post on Romans 9.
  No, it would be predicated on my *belief* in such a thing.  There is no fact at all that your god even exists much less gave anyone anything. 
Quote
If , as an atheist, God or gods don't exist and in fact never existed,  where did you get the grace to "honestly believe" in the first place?
  And sigh, we go back to your inability to show that my or your belief is anything more than a human mistakenly thinking something is real.  I believed in God and I believed in grace.  I believed I had the one to get the other.  Tah-dah, all belief no god needed. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #197 on: December 13, 2011, 01:23:39 AM »
My question now is :

 If you did indeed "honestly believe" wouldn't that be predicated on the fact that God gave you the grace to believe?

No.

I'll explain why.

To an atheist, there is no god.  No Holy Spook.  No grace, no magic, no salvation, no mystical woo.  But we accept that there are a lot of people out there who sincerely believe in all that stuff - and those people call themselves "Christians".

There is no contradiction in an atheist saying "I was once a Christian", since all they are saying there is "once upon a time I believed all that woo - like you do now - but now I do not believe it".  No different than being, say, a Miami Dolphns fan.  Once we believed they were "special", now we don't.

For there to be the contradiction you are so desperate to claim, YOU would need to show that any of that woo actually exists, and is NOT simply the product of wishful thinking and self-delusion....something you seem to be at great pains to avoid even attempting to do.

Unless and until you can do that, there is no problem whatsoever in saying "I used to be a Christian, but now I am an atheist", since ALL that statement addresses is the beliefs that one held in the existence, or non-existence, of magical spiritual happenings.

Of course, as soon as you show that "grace" IS a real thing, then yes - at that point we would recognise there is a contradiction in what we are saying, and will happily amend our claims to "I once thought I was a Christian, but I wasn't ever really one".

Ball's in your court, onesteward.  Are you going to take the opportunity to demonstrate how one tells for sure if one really IS a vessel for the holy spirit and thus reduce us all to abject retreat and apology?  So easy for you to win this argument, surely?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline albeto

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #198 on: December 13, 2011, 02:09:18 AM »
Bottom line is: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved".

I've sat beside death beds,  I have found nothing else comforting.

Your opinion doesn't mean it's so.

I was once so stoned I thought I had telepathic powers.  I mean, I really knew I could move the dice in my favor (cosmic wimpout!).  It was great comfort to me to know I had this ability. 

Interestingly, that ability never quite left my imagination.  But it was fun while it lasted.

The difference is, you're straight and you're still using your imagination to pretend something nice is real.  It's not, man.  Let it go.  Embrace reality.  There's far more comfort in empowerment and self-respect. 

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #199 on: December 13, 2011, 07:50:00 AM »
If , as an atheist, God or gods don't exist and in fact never existed,  where did you get the grace to "honestly believe" in the first place?

I see a logical problem with this, in that the OT Yahweigh, never needed people to do anything other than "fear" him, and follow all his rules.

So, it seems a bit odd that Christians typically defend the truth of the Bible intellectually, using prophecy and circular logic, such as "Why would Luke make up the story in Acts? What would he gain?" If that's all it takes to believe that Jesus really existed, and was really crucified, and really died for our sins, then why do we need grace to honestly believe it?

Sounds like you are saying that God stops us honestly believing it, by depriving us of Vitamin Grace. Why don't I have the right to honestly believe, based on the "truth" of the bible? Sure, I may just be gullible, but I have that right.


Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #200 on: December 13, 2011, 12:28:53 PM »

My question now is :

 If you did indeed "honestly believe" wouldn't that be predicated on the fact that God gave you the grace to believe?That is your post on Romans 9.

 If , as an atheist, God or gods don't exist and in fact never existed,  where did you get the grace to "honestly believe" in the first place?

We got it from the exact same place you did.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #201 on: December 13, 2011, 12:49:24 PM »
^Actually, in most cases: they never got it in the same place "we" did.[1]

-Nam
 1. 'cause most Christians never read their Bible to begin with.  We did.
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Theists: why your "I used to be an atheist" stories fails
« Reply #202 on: December 13, 2011, 03:55:46 PM »
^Actually, in most cases: they never got it in the same place "we" did.[1]

-Nam
 1. 'cause most Christians never read their Bible to begin with.  We did.

I was not referring to the bible-- I meant our imaginations! We all got the grace to honestly believe from inside our own heads.

If we had been in India, we would have convinced ourselves that Ganesha or Hanuman was working his miracles for us. But there is no real Ganasha or Hanuman, as I am sure onesteward would agree. So, where does Hindu belief come from, if there are not really any Hindu gods? Either those gods are real, their sacred scriptures are true, and that is why there are Hindus. Or those gods are not real, the sacred scriptures are made up and Hindus convince themselves, using their imaginations to interpret ordinary phenomena as the actions of said dieties.

So, onsteward, as far as you are concerned, the Hindus might as well be atheists because they don't believe in anything "real", right? Or does any supernatural belief count? If you can accept that devout Hindus are deluded, can you accept that a Hindu who renounces Hindu gods as false is no longer deluded? If that Hindu becomes an atheist, you would have to argue that he/she had "never really been a Hindu, or else they would still be a believer." How can that possibly make sense? Before they realized they were deluded, what else would you call them if not a Hindu?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.