So, let me make sure I understand what onesteward is saying. If I understand correctly, it sounds like:
1. he defines a xian as someone who is "inhabited" by the holy spirit
Pretty much.Based in part on these scriptures from John 3 :
3) Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God.
5) Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.
6) What is born of [from] the flesh is flesh [of the physical is physical]; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not [do not be surprised, astonished] at My telling you, You must all be born anew (from above).
2. atheists who claim to have been genuine xians do not believe in the existence of a holy spirit, and so, retroactively, could not have been "inhabited" by it.
To claim that The Holy Spirit doesn't exist, never existed, and claim to have been "born again by
The Holy Spirit..... just doesn't line up as I see it.
3. thus, they were never actually xians.
That seems to make more sense. That is the only point I'm trying to make.If you want to hang onto your atheism you have to let go of your 'born- again' experience.
However! onesteward claims he really, really is a xian because he is now a receptacle for the hallowed haunt himself.
I do claim to be a Christian.Born again Christian.
They are contradictory arguments. In the first case he more or less goes along with the idea that there is no pious poltergeist.
If you got that from what I wrote I either accidentall
y made a humongous misrepresentation of my belief or you misinterpreted it.
The only way his argument works is if we are right.
Right about which one? The Holy Spirit exists or The Holy Spirit doesn't exist?
If there is no angelic apparition, then it could not have been "with us".
Correct me if I'm mistaken here, You may be confusing your pejoratives.I don't think "angelic apparition" would apply in the case of The Holy Spirit.At least not the Holy Spirit in the Bible.However regarding the claim that if there was no Holy Spirit ( angelic apparition)as you say,and He couldn't have been "with us".I
agree. Some of the former Christians- now atheists- don't seem to.
But then he reverses his position when it comes to himself. He definitely has it. You can't have it both ways.
My position has been the same, I'm a Christian based on an action undetaken on my behalf by God Himself.That hasn't changed since I was " born again" originally.If for some reason I decided to become an atheist I would then have to drop any idea that Bible God even existed never mind "saved" me.
Either there really is a saintly spook, or there is not. If not, then onesteward is right, we were never really xians. But neither is he. Owie.
Correct- no Holy Spirit = no Christians.
If there is, then...
Either atheists who claim to be former xians really were inhabited by the sacred spectre, or they were not.
That seems to be it in a 'nutshell'.Can an atheist, whom for all intents and purposes denies the very existence of The Holy Spirit, at the same time, maybe in the same breath claim to have been "inhabited" by the same Holy Spirit and still "make sense"?What I'm saying... the only thing I'm trying to
say is that, by their own admission
,an atheist takes the " born again"as per John:3 off the table.Like you said " you can't have it both ways". It seems that way to me anyway.
If not, they were not a real xians, as one steward claims. But he has no way of knowing or showing that was the case.
I'd say " as defined by The Gospel of John" You are correct.The only way I have of knowing ,in here anyway, would be their 'testimony' about it.My point is if someone now
declares themselves "atheist" I'm pretty sure they would be denying a "born -again' experience.I could see a Deist becoming atheist 'cuz you and God never hung out.To be a Christian means that at the time you 'believed' God interracted with you. On the spot, right then and there.
I mean, the reverent wraith can come and go as it pleases, right? So ostensibly it could have been with someone and then either left or was evicted So, if it exists for him, it exists for all. And his job to support his claim is to show that it
was not with us at one point and then left was never with us in the first place.
Let me see, my job is to convince atheists that God...The Holy Spirit...wasn't with you at some point.How the heck much convincing could that take!?You're atheists.
Are you planning on countering my argument by arguing that The Holy Spirit was "with you' at some point?The same Holy Spirit that you don't believe exists?.
Frankly, I think his definition is a poor one. I would say that a xian is someone who believes that nonsense. That would make it easy for onesteward, or anyone, to establish their bona fides as a xian. All he or she would have to say is "I believe suchandsuch..." But that would force him to admit that those of us who were once xians really were xians and not a bunch of phonies.
I absolutely could believe some of you were Christians at one point.I just don't understand the claim that they are atheist now and both
are true.And sure, just change the definition of Christianity and everybody is covered.That actually was my basic reason for back-sliding: The more I read the Bible the more I came to realize that Christianity wasn't going to change to suit me but I was going to be the one changing.Period.I "fussed" about that for a decade or so.
And given that the blessed banshee is normally defined as "completely undetectable by any means other than just 'knowing' it is real", I think he's shit outta luck.
I didn't know that was the 'normal' definition.In here you mean?
He has as much evidence for his own credentials as a True Xian as any of us.
Sucks to be him.
Time will tell that tale.
edit - clarified my point