Author Topic: Proof that God is imperfect  (Read 6789 times)

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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2011, 10:59:59 AM »
This is the very obvious problem with the entire fall of man bullshit story.  As Alzael pointed out, perfect is not something that a human mind can even conceive of.  Because adjectives used to describe perfect, imply that perfection is a state that can be compromised.  Perfection logically and explicitly does not allow one to describe the possibility of less than perfect. 

Exactly. A perfect human with a perfect freewill would always choose correctly. The choice to disobey God would be an imperfect choice (which was chosen), therefore God's creation was already fallen prior to "The Fall".
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2011, 11:01:05 AM »
What does it mean that Man & Life were created perfect? Isn't it more in line with what was written to say that A&E were blameless and without sin as opposed to being perfect?

So who is at fault for this? if A&E are blameless that leaves only fault with the creator,because he is omni-everything

Who's at fault for what? If you are asking about who's fault it was that Adam and the woman ate of the forbidden tree, then the answer appears to be found in Adam, Eve, and to a lessor degree, the tempter. The two of them could have chosen not to partake of the fruit that they knew they were forbidden from, yet they chose to disobey the directive given them by their maker who had forbade the from eating of its fruit and told them that eating of it would be a punishable offense. Their disobedience is all on them. However, God does have a degree of culpability as after all it was God that created a setting that allowed for the possibility of man sinning.
In a nutshell, what I am saying is that blmelessness and perfection are not necessarily synonomous. Perfect implies a "completeness" and a "fullness" that we aren't told Adam or Eve ever possessed. Blamelessness on the other hand simply means that they were free of guilt and had done nothing tha they could be blamed for. That of course changed once they age of the fruit.

I wonder what would have happenned if Adam didn't eat of the tree but refused to til the ground and cultivate and care for the garden as God had commanded............. 

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2011, 11:02:10 AM »
Exactly. A perfect human with a perfect freewill would always choose correctly. The choice to disobey God would be an imperfect choice (which was chosen), therefore God's creation was already fallen prior to "The Fall".

Or Adam and Eve were perfect and chose correctly.

By the way, theists, I'm still waiting for a reply. I understand that it's difficult to face the truth, but per your own Bible, your god is imperfect.
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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2011, 11:04:08 AM »
<snip>

Adam and Eve were to blame for the fact that they were created perfect and therefore incapable of error?
Or were they created with a flaw that would cause them to disobey, meaning that YHWH is not perfect, since we're supposedly the best he could do?
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Offline jetson

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2011, 11:07:56 AM »
ToT - since we know the entire story is fiction, it could literally go anywhere, and mean anything.  Without knowing the exact person who wrote the story, we will never know the intent of the original author(s).  On the other hand, since we have people running around today who claim to know exactly what this story means, including claims that they know exactly what the God character meant, or intended, we have to address it from every angle.

The most logical angle, is that the God character is imperfect himself, because he needed something, apparently.  Think about it briefly.  God, being the perfect "being", would have no needs at all, and thus creating something, anything actually, defies his own perfection.  It is completely illogical for a triple omni, perfect entity, to create something - as that implies need.  Something perfect, has no needs, by definition.

And don't forget, we do have some Christians claiming that everything God creates is perfect - which is obviously a problem for even many Christians.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2011, 11:12:52 AM »
Who's at fault for what? If you are asking about who's fault it was that Adam and the woman ate of the forbidden tree, then the answer appears to be found in Adam, Eve, and to a lessor degree, the tempter.

Since they had no concept of right or wrong at the time, you can't really blame them can you? They simply had two conflicting things they had been told and went with the one they wanted.

Also the snake didn't tempt them. He never tells them to eat from the tree. He just points out that god lied when he said that they would die.

The two of them could have chosen not to partake of the fruit that they knew they were forbidden from, yet they chose to disobey the directive given them by their maker who had forbade the from eating of its fruit and told them that eating of it would be a punishable offense.

And they were told that this punishment was false, with no moral ability to differentiate between the two. A lack of ability that god had programmed into them.

Their disobedience is all on them. However, God does have a degree of culpability as after all it was God that created a setting that allowed for the possibility of man sinning.

He did more than that though. If god is omniscience then he knew it was going to happen and did it anyways. Not to mention that he created them without a capacity to decide between right or wrong in the first place, yet expected them to adhere to what he said.

It's like giving a monkey a gun and then blaming the monkey when someone gets shot. Adam and Eve made the best decisions they could based on what they're infinite creator had given them.

In a nutshell, what I am saying is that blmelessness and perfection are not necessarily synonomous. Perfect implies a "completeness" and a "fullness" that we aren't told Adam or Eve ever possessed. Blamelessness on the other hand simply means that they were free of guilt and had done nothing tha they could be blamed for. That of course changed once they age of the fruit.

We're not necessarily talking about blame though. We're talking about disobedience and sin. Both of which would be imperfections. Actually the fact that they would even want to eat the apple in the first place is an imperfection. A perfect being has no wants or needs because they are whole as they are.

And yes, we are told that Adam and Eve are perfect. Because god is perfect and a perfect being can't create something imperfect. Actually a perfect being would never create something at all, but that's neither here nor there.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2011, 11:27:46 AM »
The most logical angle, is that the God character is imperfect himself, because he needed something, apparently.  Think about it briefly.  God, being the perfect "being", would have no needs at all, and thus creating something, anything actually, defies his own perfection.  It is completely illogical for a triple omni, perfect entity, to create something - as that implies need.  Something perfect, has no needs, by definition.

And don't forget, we do have some Christians claiming that everything God creates is perfect - which is obviously a problem for even many Christians.

EXACTLY, I totally agree! IF we accept the idea that an omni-everything being created anything we have to face the issue of WHY. Why would such a being need to create anything at all?

I never got why people made the leap from saying all of "God's Creation" was good to all of it was perfect. That's a big and frankly unnecessary leap that does not even help to support the position that those making that leap have about God in the 1st place.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2011, 12:02:02 PM »
Who's at fault for what?

Who's at fault for damning all of mankind with regard to the Genesis story? It's either Yahweh or his creations.

If you are asking about who's fault it was that Adam and the woman ate of the forbidden tree, then the answer appears to be found in Adam, Eve, and to a lessor degree, the tempter.

Here's the deal. If Yahweh is omnipotent, omniscient, and already had a plan set in motion, then it's on Yahweh. The only real way out is to say that it wasn't part of his divine plan, but then you've got problems like an incompetent deity to deal with.

The two of them could have chosen not to partake of the fruit that they knew they were forbidden from, yet they chose to disobey the directive given them by their maker who had forbade the from eating of its fruit and told them that eating of it would be a punishable offense.

Wait, was this before the "Fall of Man" when everything was perfect? That can't be the case. As others have mentioned, things had already fallen apart before the "Fall". A snake full of sin was already plotting in the garden. <--There's a little imperfection that already snuck in. Only it didn't actually sneak in, because of the all knowing deity in the sky and all.

How much thought went into their decision making? What were the deciding factors? They lacked some serious knowledge that could have helped them in determining the correct course of action: the knowledge of good and evil. Honestly, they couldn't have even known what the good choice was. Yahweh created two mentally handicapped human beings then damned them for their handicaps he originally deprived them of.

In a nutshell, what I am saying is that blmelessness and perfection are not necessarily synonomous. Perfect implies a "completeness" and a "fullness" that we aren't told Adam or Eve ever possessed. Blamelessness on the other hand simply means that they were free of guilt and had done nothing tha they could be blamed for. That of course changed once they age of the fruit.

If perfect implies completeness, then why wouldn't Yahweh have given his perfect creations a complete knowledge including good and evil to help them with what was THE most crucial moment of their lives?

So how the hell is their punishment justified, TOT?
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2011, 02:01:57 PM »
Who's at fault for what?

Who's at fault for damning all of mankind with regard to the Genesis story? It's either Yahweh or his creations.

Scrictly in regards to the Genesis story, how was all of mankind damned and to what are we assuming mankind was damned to?
The only answer the story allows for seems to be death, but then there's the issue of us assuming without any reason to do so according to the story, that man was in fact immortal before "the fall." A good case can be made that man was a dying creature Adam partook of the forbidden fruit and that man not dying had he not eaten would have been solely due to the providence of man's creator who put a tree of life in the garden and allowed man to have access to it.

If you are asking about who's fault it was that Adam and the woman ate of the forbidden tree, then the answer appears to be found in Adam, Eve, and to a lessor degree, the tempter.

Here's the deal. If Yahweh is omnipotent, omniscient, and already had a plan set in motion, then it's on Yahweh. The only real way out is to say that it wasn't part of his divine plan, but then you've got problems like an incompetent deity to deal with.

Agreed. For all intents and purposes it appears that man was set up to fall by man's creator. That does not change the apparent fact that the couple in the garden paradise could have chosen to listen to and obey God as opposed to listening to the whyle serpent.
In this scenario, God is like Chris Hanson and has set up a sting operation for would be perps. He could have sent them emails and instruction about not being pedaphiles, but instead He chose to have His subjects sent erotic emails to tempt them with that which was a punishable offense.

Wait, was this before the "Fall of Man" when everything was perfect? That can't be the case. As others have mentioned, things had already fallen apart before the "Fall". A snake full of sin was already plotting in the garden. <--There's a little imperfection that already snuck in. Only it didn't actually sneak in, because of the all knowing deity in the sky and all.

How much thought went into their decision making? What were the deciding factors? They lacked some serious knowledge that could have helped them in determining the correct course of action: the knowledge of good and evil. Honestly, they couldn't have even known what the good choice was. Yahweh created two mentally handicapped human beings then damned them for their handicaps he originally deprived them of.

If perfect implies completeness, then why wouldn't Yahweh have given his perfect creations a complete knowledge including good and evil to help them with what was THE most crucial moment of their lives?

So how the hell is their punishment justified, TOT?
 

What is meant by "when everything was perfect?" And why assume that God's creations were "perfect" in the first place? Obviously the humans were not perfect, otherwise there would be no need for the majic trees. According to the story, even before man fell there was a serpent directing against the edicts of God, so how is it conceivable that the situation was somehow "perfect" prior to the fall? I totally understand your sentiments.

As far as what A&E are said to have known according to the story, we can conclude that they knew that the tree's fruit was forbidden and they knew there was a punishment that would be levied for consuming of its fruit. Eve varifies these conclusions for us in her conversation with the serpent. Did they fully understand what death meant and were they able to properly grasp the significance of the decision to disobey their creator, we don't know.

To me, the story told in the first 3 chapters of Genesis does much, but describing a perfect creation is not one of those things. When analyzed further and on its own merits, the punishment man ultimately got seems like a restriction from access to the magic tree of life along with exile from the presence of and possible divine protection of man's creator that apparently had some sort of undisclosed need for man to exist and potentially sin. Was that/those punishments justified? I can see an argument being made in both directions with equal conviction and subjectivity.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2011, 12:34:33 PM »
Exactly. A perfect human with a perfect freewill would always choose correctly. The choice to disobey God would be an imperfect choice (which was chosen), therefore God's creation was already fallen prior to "The Fall".

Or Adam and Eve were perfect and chose correctly.

By the way, theists, I'm still waiting for a reply. I understand that it's difficult to face the truth, but per your own Bible, your god is imperfect.
I may be in over my head here , but it seems to me you are saying that if God is prefect then he must create a prefect being. Why?
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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2011, 12:36:18 PM »
I may be in over my head here , but it seems to me you are saying that if God is prefect then he must create a prefect being. Why?

I am saying that if we were the very best God could do, then he is not perfect.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2011, 12:41:59 PM »
I may be in over my head here , but it seems to me you are saying that if God is prefect then he must create a prefect being. Why?

Something that is perfect cannot possess any flaws. So a perfect being could not create something that isn't similarly perfect, because to do so would require the possession of flaws on the creators part.

Also we are supposedly created in gods image and are gods best creation. So if we are gods best creation and we are not perfect, then god cannot possibly be perfect.

Actually a perfect being wouldn't need to create other beings anyways, but that's neither here nor there.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 12:44:41 PM by Alzael »
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2011, 06:58:50 PM »
I may be in over my head here , but it seems to me you are saying that if God is prefect then he must create a prefect being. Why?

Something that is perfect cannot possess any flaws. So a perfect being could not create something that isn't similarly perfect, because to do so would require the possession of flaws on the creators part.

Also we are supposedly created in gods image and are gods best creation. So if we are gods best creation and we are not perfect, then god cannot possibly be perfect.

Actually a perfect being wouldn't need to create other beings anyways, but that's neither here nor there.
However , for the sake of argument, we are saying that God is perfect and all powerful. So He could have made us perfect but by also giving us free will , man used his free will and thus became un- perfect. Or maybe being that He is all powerful He then  could if He wanted to make something imperfect.

 Or am I really reaching here? :?
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2011, 07:59:00 PM »
I may be in over my head here , but it seems to me you are saying that if God is prefect then he must create a prefect being. Why?

Something that is perfect cannot possess any flaws. So a perfect being could not create something that isn't similarly perfect, because to do so would require the possession of flaws on the creators part.

Also we are supposedly created in gods image and are gods best creation. So if we are gods best creation and we are not perfect, then god cannot possibly be perfect.

Actually a perfect being wouldn't need to create other beings anyways, but that's neither here nor there.
However , for the sake of argument, we are saying that God is perfect and all powerful. So He could have made us perfect but by also giving us free will , man used his free will and thus became un- perfect. Or maybe being that He is all powerful He then  could if He wanted to make something imperfect.

 Or am I really reaching here? :?

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2011, 10:54:10 PM »
I may be in over my head here , but it seems to me you are saying that if God is prefect then he must create a prefect being. Why?

Something that is perfect cannot possess any flaws. So a perfect being could not create something that isn't similarly perfect, because to do so would require the possession of flaws on the creators part.

Also we are supposedly created in gods image and are gods best creation. So if we are gods best creation and we are not perfect, then god cannot possibly be perfect.

Actually a perfect being wouldn't need to create other beings anyways, but that's neither here nor there.
However , for the sake of argument, we are saying that God is perfect and all powerful. So He could have made us perfect but by also giving us free will , man used his free will and thus became un- perfect. Or maybe being that He is all powerful He then  could if He wanted to make something imperfect.

 Or am I really reaching here? :?
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2011, 11:00:13 PM »

If you want to get into heaven you can't use your "free-will" as you see fit or you will go to hell......"obey" is your only choice.

That raises another issue as well. We were created with the ability to sin. Which we wouldn't have been if we were created perfect. Since we're not perfect, it again reasons that god cannot be perfect.
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2011, 11:13:45 PM »

If you want to get into heaven you can't use your "free-will" as you see fit or you will go to hell......"obey" is your only choice.

That raises another issue as well. We were created with the ability to sin. Which we wouldn't have been if we were created perfect. Since we're not perfect, it again reasons that god cannot be perfect.
So , why is it that a perfect being can not create sometime that is not perfect. Can not a perfect being create something for a purpose that in itself had to not be perfect to suit the purpose for which it was created.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2011, 11:31:10 PM »
So , why is it that a perfect being can not create sometime that is not perfect. Can not a perfect being create something for a purpose that in itself had to not be perfect to suit the purpose for which it was created.

A couple of reasons. First, a perfect being has no need to create anything in the first place. A perfect being has no needs or wants. That's why humans have the desires we do. Because we feel that there are things in our lives that are missing and we think they will complete us. A perfect being though is complete. There is nothing that it can want or need, because it already has everything it could want or need as a natural prerequisite for it's perfection.

Secondly, because as the saying goes "bad fruit cannot come from a good tree". So think about it, this perfect god created a perfect universe which was rendered imperfect by the humans that it created. So this would mean that a perfect being is the cause of imperfection. Which is logically not possible.

Third, what use would a perfect being have for imperfect things? This being can do anything it wants anyways. Why create imperfect beings that would only detract from it's perfection?
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Offline changeling

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2011, 11:43:29 AM »
So , why is it that a perfect being can not create sometime that is not perfect. Can not a perfect being create something for a purpose that in itself had to not be perfect to suit the purpose for which it was created.

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Offline dloubet

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2011, 01:16:02 PM »
And what is the reason for the whole Rube Goldberg universe anyway? If the god has needs, then it ain't perfect. If it requires a plan, then it ain't omniscient. If it has to follow a process, then it ain't omnipotent.

And many Christians insist that if we don't have a creator, then we don't have purpose. Then they insist the god has no creator. Has any Christian ever expressed what the purpose of their god is supposed to be?
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Offline ungod

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2011, 03:10:02 PM »
And what is the reason for the whole Rube Goldberg universe anyway? If the god has needs, then it ain't perfect. If it requires a plan, then it ain't omniscient. If it has to follow a process, then it ain't omnipotent.

And many Christians insist that if we don't have a creator, then we don't have purpose. Then they insist the god has no creator. Has any Christian ever expressed what the purpose of their god is supposed to be?

I once asked that question, and was told by a Theologue that God's purpose was "to enjoy eternal life."   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2011, 03:29:00 PM »
Sorry guys, but I am confused as to how an imperfect being , such as ourselves could even be able to guess as to what a perfect being would think of as perfect? Being that we are imperfect, whatever we conceive as perfect would be imperfect.
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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2011, 03:32:17 PM »
Sorry guys, but I am confused as to how an imperfect being , such as ourselves could even be able to guess as to what a perfect being would think of as perfect? Being that we are imperfect, whatever we conceive as perfect would be imperfect.

Per the ontological argument, we can conceive "perfection". If we can conceive "perfection", then we can also conceive "perfect actions". It's basically the same as empathy - put yourself in another person's shoes and see how they'd react to certain events.
However, if we were to ignore that, christians claim that Adam and Eve were perfect. Perfect cannot be corrupted, for corruptibility is a sign of imperfection.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2011, 04:05:12 PM »
Sorry guys, but I am confused as to how an imperfect being , such as ourselves could even be able to guess as to what a perfect being would think of as perfect? Being that we are imperfect, whatever we conceive as perfect would be imperfect.

If God's definition of perfect is different from ours, then what does the word 'perfect' even mean?  The very word 'perfect' suddenly becomes an useless and unintelligible word.  You might as well say God is plegmorfit.  How could we ever decide whether or not He is worthy of our worship if we don't know what He thinks of as perfect?  Only a being that is perfect by my definition would be worthy of my worship.  God can not just claim He is perfect and shit on people all the time expecting me to just 'get' that He is God, He is perfect, and we don't understand Him.  That's utterly ridiculous. 

And where does it stop? Is God's version of 'good' different from ours?  How about 'bad'?  How about right and wrong?  If we can't have some sort of common ground on these words, then how do we even begin to describe what God is really like, and therefore decide whether or not to worship Him?   

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Alzael

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2011, 04:18:11 PM »
Sorry guys, but I am confused as to how an imperfect being , such as ourselves could even be able to guess as to what a perfect being would think of as perfect? Being that we are imperfect, whatever we conceive as perfect would be imperfect.

If god is perfect, then it must be perfect by how we define and understand the word. Otherwise the phrase is meaningless. This means that there are certain qualities that must be possessed and others that cannot be possessed by god in order for him to be perfect.
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2011, 06:46:56 PM »
Sorry guys, but I am confused as to how an imperfect being , such as ourselves could even be able to guess as to what a perfect being would think of as perfect? Being that we are imperfect, whatever we conceive as perfect would be imperfect.

If god is perfect, then it must be perfect by how we define and understand the word. Otherwise the phrase is meaningless. This means that there are certain qualities that must be possessed and others that cannot be possessed by god in order for him to be perfect.
Being that we are not perfect, and in no way could determine or understand  what perfect truly is by any definition, would  seem to make the phrase meaningless. So if we can't (or refuse) to define or understand something then in turn we just twist it to fit what we need to believe or think. (sounds like a sort of religion to me) :laugh: not that is some funny stuff.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2011, 07:53:25 PM »
Perfection is a relatively recent characteristic applied to biblegod, is it not?  Back in the day, he was one of many gods, brutally jealous of his pets paying attention to other gods.  Today he's the only god around, he's jealous but in a loving way (like Edward sneaking in the house to watch Bella sleep every night for weeks on end isn't creepy but loooove).  He's "perfect" in a way that comes about after deciding that's the only way to stop the one-upping each other in the heavens. 

Offline Alzael

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2011, 08:10:06 PM »
Being that we are not perfect, and in no way could determine or understand  what perfect truly is by any definition, would  seem to make the phrase meaningless. So if we can't (or refuse) to define or understand something then in turn we just twist it to fit what we need to believe or think. (sounds like a sort of religion to me) :laugh: not that is some funny stuff.

Congratulations, you just realized something that takes many theists a long time to realize (and some never do). Now you finally understand how Christianity, Islam, Wicca, Mysticism, etc. came about.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Proof that God is imperfect
« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2011, 08:23:53 PM »
Perfection is a relatively recent characteristic applied to biblegod, is it not?  Back in the day, he was one of many gods, brutally jealous of his pets paying attention to other gods.  Today he's the only god around, he's jealous but in a loving way (like Edward sneaking in the house to watch Bella sleep every night for weeks on end isn't creepy but loooove).  He's "perfect" in a way that comes about after deciding that's the only way to stop the one-upping each other in the heavens.
Meaning that the phrase is in deed meaningless.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin