Author Topic: US vs. China  (Read 697 times)

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Offline Nick

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US vs. China
« on: November 20, 2011, 07:56:06 PM »
Remember Tiananmen Square in 1989 when students in China were protesting for more open government?  This Occupy movement reminds me of that.  Especially when I saw the cops spray pepper spray on students sitting peacefully.  And the round ups across the country.  We sure raked on the Chinese when they put an end to the protests.  Kept bringing it up for years afterwards. I wonder what China thinks watching us do the same.
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Offline jetson

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2011, 10:33:20 PM »
But...but...there's nothing wrong with our government...those occupiers are just whiners...   :o

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 11:32:45 PM »
Don't get me started on the Occupy movement.

Christ, talk about conflicted feelings.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2011, 11:38:17 PM »
They fight against social and economic inequality. Clearly they must be the new front in the war on.......something or other.

I bet the republicans are already getting ready to declare that anyone who disagrees with pepper spraying students, hates America.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2011, 08:50:22 AM »
They fight against social and economic inequality. Clearly they must be the new front in the war on.......something or other.

I bet the republicans are already getting ready to declare that anyone who disagrees with pepper spraying students, hates America.

No you don't understand because one occupier committed rape, they are all rapists, since there's been a couple of incidents of vandalism...they are all vandals.

If one cop indiscriminately uses pepper spray...it is an isolated incident.

But before being too judgemental...think about the reverse
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2011, 12:08:44 PM »
The mass media has tried to make them into criminals and say that all they want is their college loans paid for and a bunch of other crap when in reality their movement is futile, because the government is not going to give up their free ride nether are the corporate leaders.   
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Offline C

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2011, 01:17:17 PM »
In the end though, I have a dreadful feeling that the very first significant change in legislation, society or politics from the Occupy movement will be because of violence.

On part of the non-violent and civil disobedient protesters or perhaps authorities.

On the account of authorities acting out of hand, that one veteran marine who fought in the desert over at Oakland who was protesting got hospitalized which rightfully did evoke emotional and actual responses from people around the U.S. and the world. Of course pepper spray "incidents" and nightstick sprees are included.

The question is probably, how long each of these provocative events can spur on the movement's momentum enough so that it can eventually get through to the leaders before people get frustrated enough to get violent.

Because look at Tunisia and its Jasmine Revolution. Protesters tried their best to be peaceful but they ended up overthrowing their government (as they should have) by using actual force after all of their pent up frustration over the stifling laws, the economy and so on got out after a certain catalytic event, i.e. the self-immolation of the vendor.

I'm sure the reverse can be said when you bring up Tahrir Square and other notable movements but still..it doesn't seem that the Occupy protests (Toronto, Taipei, Wall Street, Berlin, and dozens of others) aren't going anywhere yet without some show of real, jarring action that will make the people in charge finally think, "Wait..this really might not bode well for us after all..".
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Offline screwtape

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2011, 09:21:57 AM »
I wonder what China thinks watching us do the same.

To be fair, we haven't run over anyone with a tank yet.


The buffalo beast has a good article about how maybe the occupy movement maybe should at least threaten a little violence. Remember when the teabaggers showed up at President Obama's rally in arizona armed with automatic rifles?  Well, if that is okay, then I don't see the problem of, say 200 OWSers showing up with 12 guage shotguns.  It might make the cops think twice before indiscrimantly pepper spraying a bunch of students.  Or, it might justify the swat team killing them all.  Tough to say.  That whole "second ammendment is to prevent tyranny" concept is really not all that applicable anymore.

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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2011, 11:58:24 AM »
That whole "second ammendment is to prevent tyranny" concept is really not all that applicable anymore.

Would you say that we live in a 1939 Germany were we are a police state, militarist regime, or even a sense of totalitarianism in america? 
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2011, 12:09:32 PM »
No you don't understand because one occupier committed rape, they are all rapists, since there's been a couple of incidents of vandalism...they are all vandals.

If one cop indiscriminately uses pepper spray...it is an isolated incident.

But before being too judgemental...think about the reverse

Excellent point. The main thing I remember coming from the liberal media et al was how racist the Tea Party movement was. There were a few people who had some silly signs making fun of Obama and that one incident of spitting but other than that I saw nothing to substantiate the wide spread claims of racism. Could it be that there were only a few isolated incidents which did not reflect the whole movement?

Now I am seeing reports from the conservative media et al of antisemitism at OWS. There are reports of rape, vandalism, agitation, drugs, sex, public defecation AND racism. As a percentage, these incidents are few and far between and should not be considered as indicative of the whole movement. But I gotta say, it appears to be easier to find examples of racism, agitation and vandalism at OWS than it is/was for the Tea Party. 

One thing to be at least aware of with these two movements and their different approach to affecting change is this:

The Tea Party's goal was to get more conservatives in office. They were successful. No violence was needed.

I am not entirely sure what the OWS goals are and I don't think many of the protesters do either[1]

Whatever the ultimate goal may be, too many people think violence is necessary achieve it.
 1. At least it appears that they can't all agree on what the goals are.
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Offline jetson

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2011, 12:35:47 PM »
I am not entirely sure what the OWS goals are and I don't think many of the protesters do either[1]

Whatever the ultimate goal may be, too many people think violence is necessary achieve it.
 1. At least it appears that they can't all agree on what the goals are.

If you had to take a wild-assed guess, what would be your opinion of why these people are gathering?  Seriously.

Offline screwtape

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2011, 01:45:04 PM »
Would you say that we live in a 1939 Germany were we are a police state, militarist regime, or even a sense of totalitarianism in america?

I'd say we live in a quasi police state.  Cops are more or less at liberty to assault[1] (liberal) civilians without recourse.  The government reads our email and listens to our phone conversations at will, without warrants.


The main thing I remember coming from the liberal media

What's the "liberal media"?

And as far as teabaggers being racist, here is a link with data. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/04/25/are-tea-partiers-racist.html


The Tea Party's goal was to get more conservatives in office. They were successful. No violence was needed.

Are you serious?  There was a constant threat of violence from them.  They went into town hall meetings screaming.  They had mobs of armed people at protests.  One of their favorite signs was the one about watering the tree of liberty.  If you remember the full quote, it said:
Quote
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If you think that is not an explicit thread of violence, there is something wrong with you.  They were constantly talking about "second ammendment solutions".  Try googling "tea party violence".  There is plenty to read.

And let's please keep in mind, the teabaggers were started by PR firms funded by the Koch brothers.

 1. .  For some reason using pepper spray and tasers are okay in situations where cracking someone with a club isn't...
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 10:28:37 PM by screwtape »
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Offline Alzael

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2011, 03:19:42 PM »
The Tea Party's goal was to get more conservatives in office. They were successful. No violence was needed.







Perhaps not needed.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/twitterraid/

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics/browse_thread/thread/572e7d4676380330/8feea72c0da9287f?lnk=raot&fwc=1

But certainly promised.
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2011, 03:45:12 PM »
What's the "liberal media"?

lmao... Dude, from what I can put together? It's literally anything that isn't Fox News. I wish I was joking.

I don't take sides in politics... I think you're a fucking monkey if you dance on a party line. People don't fall into one of two catagories, an "A" side and a "B" side; that shit ain't natural.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2011, 04:00:50 PM »
They had mobs of armed people at protests.  One of their favorite signs was the one about watering the tree of liberty.  If you remember the full quote, it said:
Quote
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
You have forgotten Catherine Crabill, GOP candidate for a the Virginia legislature, who said in 2009, "We have the chance to fight this battle at the ballot box before we have to resort to the bullet box. That's the beauty of our Second Amendment rights ... Our Second Amendment rights were to guard against tyranny."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/16/catherine-crabill-va-gop_n_235459.html

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2011, 06:13:03 PM »
What's the "liberal media"?

That would be the opposite of "conservative media".

Quote
And as far as teabaggers being racist, here is a link with data. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/04/25/are-tea-partiers-racist.html

So that proves everyone who supports the movement is also racist? That article is little more than a propaganda hit piece and if you buy into it I have to seriously question your critical thinking skills. I expect more from you.

Quote
Are you serious?  There was a constant threat of violence from them.  They went into town hall meetings screaming.

So what.

Quote
They had mobs of armed people at protests.

They broke no laws and not one single death or injury resulted from that action.

Quote
One of their favorite signs was the one about watering the tree of liberty.  If you remember the full quote, it said:
Quote
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

And how is that any worse or any different than the current calls for violence from supporters of the OWS movement?

Quote
If you think that is not an explicit thread of violence, there is something wrong with you.  They were constantly talking about "second ammendment solutions".  Try googling "tea party violence".  There is plenty to read.

And there is plenty to read about OWS as well...what's your point?

Quote
And let's please keep in mind, the teabaggers were started by PR firms funded by the Koch brothers.

As if the OWS movement just spontaneously sprung up overnight. You don't think that do you? This movement was meticulously planned and carefully orchestrated.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2011, 11:39:17 PM »
That would be the opposite of "conservative media".

That's vague, jay and doesn't answer the question.  Specifically, what do you consider the "liberal media"? 

You see, lots of conservatives think organizations like "CNN" or "NBC news" or "NPR" are the liberal media.  I am trying to understand where you are on that before I spend too much energy on ranting about something that may not be the case. You are not helping.

So that proves everyone who supports the movement is also racist?

Is that what you think I said?  I sure hope not. 

I think it shows that it is a fair generalization to say teabaggers are statistically more racist than normal people.

That article is little more than a propaganda hit piece and if you buy into it I have to seriously question your critical thinking skills. I expect more from you.

Question all you want.  The article has data collected from multiple polls.  You reject it only because it disagrees with your mental model of the world.  It is a nice belief defense mechanism you have there.  Anything that contradicts what you already believe is a "hit piece".  That is what keeps people ignorant, jay.  Defense mechanisms that prevent them from even considering the idea that they might be wrong.  Do you want to stay ignorant?

So what.

So?  So, you are full of shit.  You said they didn't need violence.  My point is everything about them had an undercurrent of violence.  Their language, their tactics, their slogans - all couched in violent terms.  You don't seem to be denying that now.  Do you take back your claim?


They broke no laws and not one single death or injury resulted from that action.

Not the point and completely irrelevant.

And how is that any worse or any different than the current calls for violence from supporters of the OWS movement?

I reject your premise.  I've not seen anyone in the OWS movement call for violence.  The only talk of violence I have heard has been from conservative commentators fabricating accusations out of thin air or on conservative blogs.  I'm not going to search for it either.   That's your job. 

And there is plenty to read about OWS as well...what's your point?

Are you stupid, jay?  Because you sound pretty stupid, with your "So?s" and "what's your point?s".  I thought my point was pretty clear: Your point about the teabaggers being nonviolent was wrong.  I think I pretty well established it.  And whether the OWS is violent - and I've not yet seen any evidence of it - has no bearing on that.

As if the OWS movement just spontaneously sprung up overnight. You don't think that do you? This movement was meticulously planned and carefully orchestrated.

The teabagger movement was paid for by billionaires to support the interests of billionaires, coordinated through PR firms.  It was well documented.  What you have said above does not equate to what I am talking about.  What I think, jay, is that OWS is not sponsored by rich people.  I think it is not coordinated by PR firms.  I think the leaders and organizers are not on the payroll of front 502c3 organizations that are fronts for billionaires' political interests.  I think they are not a coordinated part of a left wing election strategy.  If you disagree, well, the onus is on you to show it.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2011, 11:52:15 PM »
So what.

So?  So, you are full of shit.  You said they didn't need violence.  My point is everything about them had an undercurrent of violence.  Their language, their tactics, their slogans - all couched in violent terms.  You don't seem to be denying that now.  Do you take back your claim?


They broke no laws and not one single death or injury resulted from that action.

Not the point and completely irrelevant.

I would like to interject here in order to remind Jay that I just provided several instances of violence either done by them, or acts of violence threatened by them. If you'd like I found more that I could show you. Maybe you should read the other posts before you make statements like those, Jayb.
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Offline Nick

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2011, 07:36:28 AM »
Hey, Im sorry for starting this post.  I thought it was wrong to pepper spray the students with their sit-in.  I understand now after watching FOX.  Pepper spray is just a food product. What was I thinking.  I guess they could have washed it off by waterboarding. ;)
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Offline Babdah

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2011, 08:18:03 AM »
You have forgotten Catherine Crabill, GOP candidate for a the Virginia legislature, who said in 2009, "We have the chance to fight this battle at the ballot box before we have to resort to the bullet box. That's the beauty of our Second Amendment rights ... Our Second Amendment rights were to guard against tyranny."

From what i understand and listening  to other people, if the ballot box worked then we would not have half the problems we have now by passing bills that we do not know about. from reading on this forum and other pages the second amendment is useless because even if the people were to stand up to the government the people would be crushed as soon as it happen. the goverment does not care what we have to say so long as they can full fill there agenda.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2011, 10:59:00 AM »
@Screwtape

I almost forgot about our discussion, my apologies.

I think before I continue, we should come to some sort of agreement about what constitutes violence. I generally view violence as an act of aggression which results in physical harm or damage, either to the person or to property. Threats of or calls for violence can also be included simply because of the actions they beg.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: US vs. China
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2011, 08:57:44 AM »
The only thing good to be said about democracy at the moment, is that it allows for "the people" to alternate their vote every 8 years, or so, and throw one load of corrupt arrogant pricks out, to be replaced by a load which aren't corrupt yet.

We've got a situation on the east of Australia, where the land is about to be plundered by Chinese gas companies. Governments since 1900 have endorsed a system where petroleum and mineral companies can walk all over landholders, because the government owns the land under the landholder. The NSW state Labor government (in power for 12 years) paved the way for them to enter our land without even paying royalties. Now, they have been kicked out of office, they are suddenly against Coal Seam Gas.

It's tempting to write some abusive emails to them. Well, hell no, not tempting. Let's do it, now I think of it.

Another interesting thing that has happened, is that one of the worst right wing radio hosts (Alan Jones) is now against CSG, because he has bought a nice big mansion in a CSG area, and his boss owns vineyards in the Hunter Valley. This prick, who has hated Greens for the last 30 years, is now suddenly saying something correct - purely because his property values are about to drop.

It generally amazes me that the right wing in USA does not blame any Bushes and Greenspans for he current financial meltdown, but turns acridly on Obama, when he attempts to fix up the cesspit that the right wing shitheads created.

Judging by all the hate emails I get forwarded to me, it appears that the most pressing issue on every right winger's mind is how refugess are taking over the country, and are receiving unemployment benefits.



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