Author Topic: Using the Holocaust to win debates....  (Read 1966 times)

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Offline Ambivalent

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Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« on: November 18, 2011, 11:46:15 PM »
I have a friend online who is pretty much the opposite of everything I stand for. He's highly religious, preaches about homosexuality and abortion being wrong and anytime I attempt to debate, he compares homosexuality and abortion to Hitler. Regardless, he really tipped the scales to me when I watched this video he showed us, basically abortion versus the Holocaust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7y2KsU_dhwI

I can only sit here in disgust as this video becomes more and more popular, as I watch while thousands of people use the death of millions of Jews to establish their argument.  I can't help but feel a cold shiver as I watch what I consider a complete insult to the death and memory of millions used to establish abortion being wrong.

I understand that I'm biased, as I'm obviously pro-choice, but regardless, how can so many people continue to use these massive deaths as a point? How can I argue when Nazis, Jews, Hitler suddenly get thrown into an argument?

This video has made quite a few rounds and according to my friend, converted many people to the 'pro-life' debate.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2011, 01:09:52 AM »
One thing you can do is hammer it home that Hitler was a devout Christian who believed that he was doing what God wanted him to do.  In other words, for all that your friend is so adamantly opposed to abortion, he is ultimately sabotaging his own argument by invoking Hitler.  Because he cannot evade the fact that religious people who submit their will and decisions to what they believe God wants will be capable of any atrocity, including the one he decries so harshly, if they believe it is what God wants of them.

Offline Death over Life

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2011, 01:10:49 AM »
Tis simple. It is simply comparing apples and oranges. Hitler and the holocaust have nothing to do with a woman's personal body, so it should have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of debate at hand. If anything, it seems more of a desperation attempt.

What does piss me off in the debates though are the fact that they say those who get abortions are "more" evil than Hitler, despite the fact that Hitler murdered actual people while abortions are the choice of a woman who either does not want to, or have the ability to have a growing fetus in her body.

You can always ask them if abortion is murder, then why do we celebrate birthdays instead of conceptiondays? Pro-choice to no ends for me. I also wouldn't worry so much about the pro-lifers though since you find out they are the ones getting all the abortions anyway. Hypocrisy is the greatest aspect of pro-life anyway.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2011, 01:27:06 AM »
I also wouldn't worry so much about the pro-lifers though since you find out they are the ones getting all the abortions anyway. Hypocrisy is the greatest aspect of pro-life anyway.

My mother works in an abortion clinic and there's actually a surprising amount of truth to that. Despite the fact that the place has a lot of right-wing Christians that picket it on occasion. I have actually seen these same women bring their daughters and nieces (sometimes themselves as well) in to get abortions.

They always possess some form of justification of how their particular case is a special exception. It's very disgustingly hypocritical.

The clinic staff hate those women privately as well. Not because they're hypocrites (well not only that), but because they always behave obnoxiously. They really do think and act like they're a special case and tend to demand extra-consideration and treatment, such as being placed at a higher priority than other customers.

As to the OP. I propose you ask a question to your friend.

If he thinks that abortion should be banned, ask him how the law should punish the young (most likely traumatized) girls that get abortions anyways. Because they will still get abortions, as history has shown. So what punishments should be heaped on the poor girls who get one?

I say to ask this because to date I've never actually seen this really answered. I've seen pro-lifers say that it should be illegal, however I've never really received an answer about how these poor girls should be punished. Most of the ones I've seen eventually admit that they don't think the girl should actually be punished for it. Which then, of course, raises the next question of why should you outlaw it then. I don't recall ever receiving a good answer to that line of thought.

There is actually a video somewhere on youtube on the same subject. At a prolife rally the question is asked of various people there. Their answers are very telling in regards to how much thought they have actually put into it.
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Offline pingnak

Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2011, 01:47:20 AM »

Offline Ambivalent

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2011, 01:56:43 AM »
It wasn't generally even the fact he was arguing his debate, that's fine. It's the fact he keeps pulling Hitler out of his butt. I want a REAL debate, not some low reductio ad Hitlerum crap. To quote him back with me feeling offended regarding the use of Jews to establish a point;

Quote
"Hitler killed millions, and his reason was they weren't people.
Now we kill millions, and our reason is they're not people.
It's completely analogous.
The fact that you find it offensive should tell you something about your beliefs.
What's disgusting is that people can see millions of infants killed, and not only be apathetic, but actually defend the right to kill them."

Is he looking for an honest debate? He has a funny way of making my feelings of being offended into something evil!

Quote his friend;

Quote
But you don't know if you would say that because you are obviously not pro-life... Even if this video was bias (which is is not because it shows both perspectives of people who are for abortions and are against it). the point of the video is not to put down Jews. It was to show that what Hitler did is the same as what people who have abortions do. It is Killing innocent people. MURDER!

He hadn't even made the video. This video is just being used a tool to convert people to pro-life.

Quote
One thing you can do is hammer it home that Hitler was a devout Christian who believed that he was doing what God wanted him to do.  In other words, for all that your friend is so adamantly opposed to abortion, he is ultimately sabotaging his own argument by invoking Hitler.  Because he cannot evade the fact that religious people who submit their will and decisions to what they believe God wants will be capable of any atrocity, including the one he decries so harshly, if they believe it is what God wants of them.

This doesn't work too well with him. He likes to keep "on topic" (you know, by bringing up Hitler), but he'll point out he attempts to debate without using God. (Although every argument he has is founded because of God.)  He'll also probably point out how Hitler technically made his own religion. Believe me, I agree with you, but I'm trying to think of how he'd consider it. It means digging into his Christian mind...

Quote
Tis simple. It is simply comparing apples and oranges. Hitler and the holocaust have nothing to do with a woman's personal body, so it should have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of debate at hand. If anything, it seems more of a desperation attempt.

I already pointed it out to him with him insisting it's the same thing and then telling me my views were basically Hitler's. :/ He doesn't think it's a women's issue. It's a baby's issue and he's protecting the baby. Forget women. I already pointed out he shouldn't have a say because he's male and it's not his body. That doesn't matter to him.

Quote
What does piss me off in the debates though are the fact that they say those who get abortions are "more" evil than Hitler, despite the fact that Hitler murdered actual people while abortions are the choice of a woman who either does not want to, or have the ability to have a growing fetus in her body.

It's murder. It's a baby. Nothing I say or do can change his (or his many Church going supporter's) minds on this.

Quote
You can always ask them if abortion is murder, then why do we celebrate birthdays instead of conceptiondays? Pro-choice to no ends for me. I also wouldn't worry so much about the pro-lifers though since you find out they are the ones getting all the abortions anyway. Hypocrisy is the greatest aspect of pro-life anyway.

That's very interesting, but highly believable. It's always easy to judge a situation when you're not in it. And he will never be.

Quote
If he thinks that abortion should be banned, ask him how the law should punish the young (most likely traumatized) girls that get abortions anyways. Because they will still get abortions, as history has shown. So what punishments should be heaped on the poor girls who get one?

I asked. Lets see what my response will be. If any. Now that you've mentioned this, I'm very interested too! 

Offline Alzael

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2011, 02:10:48 AM »
Quote
"Hitler killed millions, and his reason was they weren't people.
Now we kill millions, and our reason is they're not people.
It's completely analogous.
The fact that you find it offensive should tell you something about your beliefs.
What's disgusting is that people can see millions of infants killed, and not only be apathetic, but actually defend the right to kill them."

Quote
It is Killing innocent people. MURDER!

He does realize that before this murder claim can even begin to fly he first has to:

a)Prove that the fetuses can actually count as people.

b)show that the act of abortion was committed with malice aforethought or

c)that the killing specifically violated the law or

d)was done in the commission of the breaking of another law

Once he satisfies that he can start to call it murder.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2011, 07:31:25 AM »
I would just tell him that women have the right to abort fertilized fetuses, by law.  Tell him to get the law changed, and then he has a case for murder.  The person you are debating is not worth debating.  Take a cue from Richard Dawkins, and cut him off before you waste too much of your life on this asshat.

Offline Maxwell

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2011, 07:35:39 AM »
Quote
"Hitler killed millions, and his reason was they weren't people.
Now we kill millions, and our reason is they're not people.
It's completely analogous.
The fact that you find it offensive should tell you something about your beliefs.
What's disgusting is that people can see millions of infants killed, and not only be apathetic, but actually defend the right to kill them."

Quote
It is Killing innocent people. MURDER!

He does realize that before this murder claim can even begin to fly he first has to:

a)Prove that the fetuses can actually count as people.

b)show that the act of abortion was committed with malice aforethought or

c)that the killing specifically violated the law or

d)was done in the commission of the breaking of another law

Once he satisfies that he can start to call it murder.

A fetus may or may not be conscious but do you really want to take the risk? What if it's alive?

Offline jetson

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2011, 07:39:05 AM »

A fetus may or may not be conscious but do you really want to take the risk? What if it's alive?

What is the risk? 

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2011, 07:39:34 AM »
A fetus may or may not be conscious but do you really want to take the risk? What if it's alive?

It most certainly is alive, just like the cells in your body and bacteria your immune system destroys every single day.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2011, 07:43:35 AM »

A fetus may or may not be conscious but do you really want to take the risk? What if it's alive?

A chicken may or not be conscious, do you not want to eat it? So may a fly, does that mean you're not going to swat it? Your computer might be consious, does that mean you'll think twice before you tear it apart?

There are many things that might be. However what matters is what "is". First define a conscious being, then show that it applies to said fetus. Don't say that it might be something therefore we should treat it that way, unless you're willing to apply that same logic to everything else that might be conscious. Otherwise you're just being hypocritical.

Furthermore, you still have to justify why the fetus shouldn't be killed. We kill living things all the time for various reasons. We even kill each other for various reasons. Soemtimes we do it willingly and consider it a greater good. Look at the Americans, they went into Iraq with the express purpose of killing people. Just because they deemed that risking all of those lives was better than taking the chance of leaving the bad guys alive.

Hell humans make whole songs, movies, and video games centered around our various wars and conflicts where we killed a bunch of people. Have you ever looked at the Call of Duty series? They've been making that series of world war 2 shooters for far longer than the actual war went on.

We're perfectly all right with killing depending on the circumstances. So even if we do count a fetus as being alive and conscious and human, you still have to provide a justification for why it's wrong to kill it under certain circumstances.

You also missed the point of what you quoted. The point was not regarding the issue of abortion. The point was about his designation of it being murder.

By definition (both dictionary definition and legal) murder requires those things to present. If he can't show that those apply to abortion then he is using an appeal to emotion when he calls it murder. Making him a liar trying to manipulate peoples feelings in order to advance his agenda.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 07:52:02 AM by Alzael »
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2011, 07:59:02 AM »
There's actually another relevant question that this brings up.

For those who want to outlaw abortion, they're always rather vague on what their alternative is. Ok, you want to not kill the children, fine. But then what are you going to do with them?

The mothers obviously can't take care of them. The adoption system as it stands couldn't handle all of them. I'm fairly certain that these same people don't want to start paying the taxes required to improve the social services systems so that they can handle the issue. Or the taxes to pay the teenage mothers welfare so that they can raise the kids. You can't reasonably expect humans to just not have sex. So what do you actually plan to do?

This is what has really always annoyed me about pro-lifers. They're so short-sighted. They only care about what happens from conception to birth. Once the child is born they don't give a damn about what happens to it. Or what happens to the society that now has so many new people running around that it can't/is unwilling to look after and raise so that they have a chance to become meaningful contributors to society.

If abortion gives you a bad feeling, that's fine, but there's a lot more to the issue than just you and your icky feelings.
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2011, 08:02:31 AM »
Yeah, that's why God in his wisdom created miscarriage. Something like 1 out of 23.

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Offline jetson

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2011, 08:06:32 AM »
Alzael, let me add this.  What they really want is for humans to not have sex without intent.  When you dig deep enough, that's what it comes to.  They are the morality police, and they want to be able to tell everyone that they must find a soul mate, marry them before God, and then have a little boy and girl to be raised to worship their almighty sky daddy.

Hypocrites will say anything to defend their views.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2011, 08:12:48 AM »
When I was a pro-lifer, I wrote a pamphlet about the BC pill being abortifacient and put 15 in the lit. rack (ediT ADDEDat my church). There would be 14 for a while, and then 15 again.


You get a glass of water and it won't be long, you take a BC powder and you come  back strong!


« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 08:15:45 AM by monkeymind »
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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2011, 08:13:43 AM »
I almost forgot about actually talking about the OP:
This is one of the most pathetic attempts I've seen by someone to win an argument. Taking millions of deaths and twisting them into something like this.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2011, 08:21:41 AM »
Alzael, let me add this.  What they really want is for humans to not have sex without intent.  When you dig deep enough, that's what it comes to.  They are the morality police, and they want to be able to tell everyone that they must find a soul mate, marry them before God, and then have a little boy and girl to be raised to worship their almighty sky daddy.

Hypocrites will say anything to defend their views.

I agree, I could have gone on much longer pointing out all of the flaws and the things they don't consider in their arguments. Such as educating all of those extra kids when the American system already has difficulty educating the ones it has now.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2011, 09:06:58 AM »
Okay, he wants to keep this non-religious.  Given that actually benefits your argument, I think he's being foolish, but whatever.

First off, Alzael's advice about the murder accusation is spot-on.  He has to prove that it's murder, which he can't because it's not, or he has to convince you and others why it should be murder, which he's also not doing.  All he's actually doing is making an appeal to emotion to sway people into accepting his view, which is to say, he's acting exactly the same as a con artist.  He probably won't believe you, but the important thing is to make that point, because it makes it clear what his appeal to emotion really is.  Then you can challenge him to prove that it should be considered murder, instead of just making the claim in order to con people into accepting his view.

Then you need to get him to define when a fetus starts being a person.  If he tries to claim that it happens at conception, you can pull up the fact that there is a 75% miscarriage chance within the first two weeks.  In other words, 75% of all 'people' die before they ever properly get started.  At that point, you can actually have a reasonable argument with him, because his argument about all abortions are murder falls flat if it's natural for that many zygotes to die.  But you have to actually get him to that point before.

I would also say, if he's not capable of understanding that he's acting exactly like a con artist, or unwilling to admit it, then your best bet is to tell him that it's not worth being friends with a person who is willing to con people into accepting his view and that you are unwilling to associate with such a person.  Because if he's like that, then you aren't going to be able to convince him, and he'll just keep using that youtube video to browbeat you because people are accepting his view.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2011, 09:46:05 AM »
Is he looking for an honest debate?

Heck no.  He's trying to convince people of his position.  And emotional appeals are amazingly effective.  Waaay more effecitve than facts.  They take a lot less time, require less thought and they exploit the way our crappy brains funtion. 

Debates are for academics.  If you want to persuade people of something, use emotional appeals in a narrative story.  It is how brains work.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2011, 11:18:23 AM »
Right.  The point is that he's using only emotions to try to sway people.  It works, but it's a con job, because the person isn't really agreeing in any actual sense.  That's why I suggested calling what he's doing a con job and demonstrating that it is so, because it hits him on an emotional level yet has actual facts to back it up rather than just being emotional fluff.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2011, 10:50:11 PM »
good luck with that, Mr Spock.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2011, 11:09:32 PM »
I'm actually not suggesting using pure logic.  As you said, it doesn't work too well because people tend not to think logically unless they're trained to.  What I think might work, or at least be worth trying, is to incorporate the logic and facts into the emotional argument.  That is, speaking to their heart as well as their head.  Most religious people just speak to the heart.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2011, 11:21:03 PM »
Quote
"Hitler killed millions, and his reason was they weren't people.
Now we kill millions, and our reason is they're not people.
It's completely analogous.
The fact that you find it offensive should tell you something about your beliefs.
What's disgusting is that people can see millions of infants killed, and not only be apathetic, but actually defend the right to kill them."

Quote
It is Killing innocent people. MURDER!

He does realize that before this murder claim can even begin to fly he first has to:

a)Prove that the fetuses can actually count as people.

b)show that the act of abortion was committed with malice aforethought or

c)that the killing specifically violated the law or

d)was done in the commission of the breaking of another law

Once he satisfies that he can start to call it murder.

Fundy answer:

(a) they do I know they do it is God's law(regardless of the fact it in no way appears in the Bible)

(b)It isn't like it happens accidentally!

(C) God's Law

(D) God's Law

Really none of that is going to work on these people
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2011, 03:51:55 PM »
Really none of that is going to work on these people

Not on the nutjobs no. But that doesn't apply to all of them.
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Offline Ambivalent

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2011, 11:38:34 PM »
The good news is, he FINALLY admitted why the video maybe offensive. However, after I *assume * he looked up what "reductio ad Hitlerum" meant, he tried desperately to assure me that what he said DID correspond directly with Hitler. Now, he didn't make the video, but he uses it as his little tool to promote it. Anyway, I asked him how he feels we should deal with women who get abortions and he responded this:

 
Quote
I think our government has done an extreme disservice to our young people. The government and doctors are seen as authority figures, and if a doctor tells you abortion is a viable option, then you are likely to think to yourself, "well if the doctor says it's okay it must be okay." They then make ignorant decisions based on what their authority figures have brought them to believe, and are actually killing their own sons and daughters, without realizing what their doing. Films like these are obviously biased, the point of this film is not to present both sides of the argument and allow you to choose, it is to shock you back into reality. It's to challenge the prior beliefs you had based on what your authorities have told you, and show you just terrible of a situation our country is in right now.

 So he's basically saying that he doesn't put all of the fault on the ladies or anyone in particular.

I also asked him what he would do for these unwanted babies, to which he responded:

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Considering the massive change in worldview that needs to take place, abortion should be made illegal, but the process of criminalization and punishment would need to be gradual. If abortion were made illegal today, and tomorrow 14 yr old rape victim received an abortion, I do not believed she should get life in prison for infanticide. However, further down the road when we have ended this death happy mentality in favor of abortion, then abortion should be treated as infanticide.
My point of the authority's power is that people are under a false mindset that when they get an abortion they are not actually murdering their child. If this mindset ends, and the mother is aware of this, then she is in fact killing her child, which is infanticide, and should be treated as such.

Gradually, he hopes it becomes considered "infanticide."

When I asked him why the child should have to born to add to the masses of disowned children and population, he responded:

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The bad life of the child argument doesn't work for me. Would you rather be bounced around foster families, or never have life at all? By that kind of mindset, we should just bomb third world countries en mass because their lives suck. Simply because someone has a terrible life (by our standards) doesn't mean we have the right to take it away.
Some people bring up the fact that a horror story might occur. The child might be adopted by a pedophile or something. However, for every horror story there's dozens if not hundreds that weren't horror stories. So that would mean in order to avoid that one horror story, you should kill off hundreds of kids, which doesn't make sense. Also, even if you experience a horror story life, would you still rather to have never been born? Even on the rare chance there is a horror story, and on the odd chance they would rather have never lived than have a bad life, it's not our choice to make. We're not gods that can decide to kill based upon an unforeseen future.

I enjoy speaking with this individual only because he offers insight into how *some* Christians think. He's able to use his words quite well and many Christians prefer using him to make their arguments or statements.

I did think the video he had provided gave me an excellent tool to reveal how some Christians can distort and manipulate feelings to suite their own cause. This youtube video has MANY views and many comments. It's being translated into many languages and obviously has the full support of the 'pro-life' community. Because I'm pro-choice, me telling them that it's wrong to use the Jews to prove their point does little. I attempted to explain that I would have felt the same way regardless, even if I were fully pro-life. I find it a low way to go.

screwtape
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.  He's trying to convince people of his position.  And emotional appeals are amazingly effective.  Waaay more effecitve than facts.  They take a lot less time, require less thought and they exploit the way our crappy brains funtion.

Debates are for academics.  If you want to persuade people of something, use emotional appeals in a narrative story.  It is how brains work.

It's very effective. People are literally shouting; "OM! That movie makes me REALLY THINK!!!" And Christians are posting it like crazy. Keep in mind that the movie doesn't really start talking about abortion until after it's done discussing the plight of the Jews. Which would make anyone feel sad.




Offline Alzael

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2011, 12:03:05 AM »
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I think our government has done an extreme disservice to our young people. The government and doctors are seen as authority figures, and if a doctor tells you abortion is a viable option, then you are likely to think to yourself, "well if the doctor says it's okay it must be okay." They then make ignorant decisions based on what their authority figures have brought them to believe, and are actually killing their own sons and daughters, without realizing what their doing. Films like these are obviously biased, the point of this film is not to present both sides of the argument and allow you to choose, it is to shock you back into reality. It's to challenge the prior beliefs you had based on what your authorities have told you, and show you just terrible of a situation our country is in right now.

In other words, it's not designed to give you any actual information or to help you make an informed and intelligent decision. It's designed to horrify and emotionally manipulate you into agreeing with our position by demonizing anyone who has a different opinion than ours. An opinion which we can't substantiate with an actual logical or evidence-based argument.

Remind your friend that if the only way he can defend his position is with emotional manipulation, demonization, minsinformation and faith, he has essentially admitted that his position has no actual strength of it's own.

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Considering the massive change in worldview that needs to take place, abortion should be made illegal, but the process of criminalization and punishment would need to be gradual. If abortion were made illegal today, and tomorrow 14 yr old rape victim received an abortion, I do not believed she should get life in prison for infanticide. However, further down the road when we have ended this death happy mentality in favor of abortion, then abortion should be treated as infanticide.
My point of the authority's power is that people are under a false mindset that when they get an abortion they are not actually murdering their child. If this mindset ends, and the mother is aware of this, then she is in fact killing her child, which is infanticide, and should be treated as such.

So basically it's only child-killing if the mother thinks she's killing her child.......fucking brilliant.

To put it with less snark.

So he doesn't actually have any punishment in mind. Just some vague notion that somebody should be punished, somewhere, at some vague point in the future......maybe....if the phase of the moon is correct. (ok, a little less snark)

He doesn't think these girls should be punished, unless the rest of society backs him up on this. I was actually expecting something along those lines, it's a common response when you press that point. Many pro-lifers will try to say things like "well that's for the law to decide" when asked about how people who do this should be punished. He doesn't really want to say it publicly so he waffles and tries to shift the concept away onto the authorities rather than ask himself the question of whether the girls really deserve to be punished.

After all, if you're not going to punish them, what's the point in outlawing it?

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The bad life of the child argument doesn't work for me. Would you rather be bounced around foster families, or never have life at all? By that kind of mindset, we should just bomb third world countries en mass because their lives suck. Simply because someone has a terrible life (by our standards) doesn't mean we have the right to take it away.
Some people bring up the fact that a horror story might occur. The child might be adopted by a pedophile or something. However, for every horror story there's dozens if not hundreds that weren't horror stories. So that would mean in order to avoid that one horror story, you should kill off hundreds of kids, which doesn't make sense. Also, even if you experience a horror story life, would you still rather to have never been born? Even on the rare chance there is a horror story, and on the odd chance they would rather have never lived than have a bad life, it's not our choice to make. We're not gods that can decide to kill based upon an unforeseen future.

Dodge and a Red Herring with a little bit of a Strawman.

No horror stories were brought up. The question was one of society over all.

How will the adoption system cope? How can an education system that already has overcrowded classrooms, poor funding, and already has trouble teaching it's students cope with several million more of them?

There's the workability of the mothers. A lot of them will have to go on welfare. Not to mention they might not be able to work and have/raise the baby so there's also a loss of manpower in the workforce that could have been used elsewhere.

Not to mention a teen mother who gets pregnant and has to drop out of highschool to take care of the baby. There's another potential loss, not to mention all of the other societal problems that comes with lack of education. Keep in mind that we're not talking about one or two babies, we're talking literally millions and millions of new babies that are going to be born. The possible bad life of the child was never even brought up. What was mentioned was the potential societal impact.

The question still remains, what are you going to do with all of these new people?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2011, 08:40:16 AM »
This guy really doesn't have any idea about just how bad things would be if abortion (and I assume contraception) were outlawed.  He talks about the hundreds of stories that weren't horrible for every one that was, except that he doesn't truly understand just what he's talking about.  This planet isn't capable of supporting all the people who currently live on it, let alone all the ones who will be living on it if we allow the population to continue to grow at this unsustainable rate.  If he wants a real horror story, tell him to imagine billions of people trying desperately to keep from starving to death, and slowly failing because there isn't enough food that can be grown for them.  And worse, eating each other to stay alive.

Horror?  Pfah!  He doesn't know what real horror is.  Compared to any likely outcome of unrestricted population growth, the Holocaust was just a ripple.  It isn't that the Holocaust wasn't horrible in its own right, it's that the thought of billions of people dying from starvation, cannibalism, and wars over the remaining food resources is immeasurably worse.

And the worst part is, things like abortion and contraception won't prevent this fate unless people like him wake up and understand just how awful things will be if we were to outlaw either, let alone both.

Offline Death over Life

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Re: Using the Holocaust to win debates....
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2011, 11:53:07 PM »
Watching that 180 movie, near the end, a light-bulb went off. Since Ray Comfort is the epitome of using lies, manipulation, and strawmen arguments to make people change their minds, and using the Holocaust as an anti-abortion tool, only to use this to convert people to Christianity and of course say the usual bs about God, my question is, where is the Bible scripture that claims that ALL forms of Government are personally appointed by God and is righteous and just?

If this Scripture can be revealed, then in that little Scripture, it would pretty much show Ray Comfort to be one of the biggest idiots in all of humanity. Sometimes, letting the guy do his thing could actually be his downfall. How can Ray talk about Hitler and abortion negatively as such when it's there in the Bible that God personally sanctions all of this? Maybe perhaps this could be a great way to show that the Christian God, by this video, is the definition of evil?

P.S.: Is it wrong I might actually be a fan of that Steve fellow despite the neo-nazi bs? Sure he may be a neo-nazi, but the guy seems very charismatic.