Author Topic: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense  (Read 469 times)

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Offline velkyn

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Historicity

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2011, 11:14:38 AM »
It misses some Gobinovian thesis on race.  My source is Martin Gardner in Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science.

One is that civilization is upheld by 5 great cultural races.  One is the Jews.  This is why the Nazis only used paraphrases of Gobineau and avoided quoting him.  They did not want to point followers to a book that had anything nice to say about Jews.

The other is that Gobineau predicted not only the downfall of civilization by race mixing but the extermination of all humans by it.

How?????

Well, think of if we mated every horse to every donkey.  We'd get one generation of mules.  But that would be sterile and there would be no further generations of mules or horses or donkeys.  Gobineau postulated a delayed infertility effect.  Someday after thorough race mixing humanity would find itself sterile and we'd all die out.

I once saw a Hitler quote and then lost it where Hitler said exactly that, visualizing the Earth without the human race and adding, "I, for one, think that would be evil."

Lafcadio Hearn settled and married in Japan.  His last book was Japan: An Interpretation[1] (1904).  In it he included an appendix by Herbert Spencer who was regarded as the greatest philosopher who touched on all subjects.  Spencer, as you may know, invented the phrase "survival of the fittest" and milked the chance fact that he was a cousin of Darwin.  Anyway, in the appendix he approved of a recent Japanese law forbidding intermarriage, stating that any stock breeder knows how mixing strains produces all sorts of defects.  If these defects don't show up immediately, they will in some later generations.  As I read that I heard an echo of Gobineau's delayed sterility.  Spencer was an advocate of eugenics as well.

So I got the impression that Gobineau's idea had become a self-replicating meme in 19th century thought.  It was not that the Nazis had read Gobineau but that thought had filtered thru.
 1. This is the common abbreviation of the title.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 11:50:41 AM by Historicity »

Offline velkyn

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2011, 11:29:37 AM »
just a correction, mules are not always infertile, at least not the female ones. I'm guessing you are assuming all other horses and donkeys have died out to make the point.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2011, 12:06:37 PM »
just a correction, mules are not always infertile, at least not the female ones. I'm guessing you are assuming all other horses and donkeys have died out to make the point.
Yes, I know that.  I have rural ancestors a generation back.  While I recently found that the sheep/goat hybrids are not always sterile, in the next generation they breed back to one species.  Horses and donkeys are within a single genus.  I wonder if the 2nd generation is back to being a horse or donkey.

I also know from my rural ancestry that sometimes a chicken is born with teeth.  The lucky farmer gets a novelty to show off at a fair.  So if a farmer has never seen it, he at least knows a farmer who knows a farmer who has seen it.   It was known to be not impossible but something you were unlikely to see, hence the correct meaning of "as rare as hen's teeth".

I reread and corrected my post above adding my primary source.

Eichmann said in his autobio (a Life magazine exclusive) that he was an "idealist".  Once a Jew stomped into his office and threw down an identity booklet.  Eichmann said he admired the man as a fellow idealist.  He expedited the man's emigration to Israel.  Eichmann said he wanted the Jews to all go to Israel but it was the fault of the verdammt Englisch that prevented it.  There is possibly an element of truth in that.  However at his trial a key piece of evidence was a handwritten note, "Eichmann recommends killing by shooting."

Offline Historicity

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2011, 12:21:38 PM »
Somewhere in a pile of books here I have a history of Christianity published circa 1960.  It is a text book for Catholic high schools.

It quotes the semiofficial L'Osservatore Romano in the early 1930s as the official position of The Church.  IIRC,  "Catholicism is incompatible with National Socialism".

Garry Wills in Hitler's Pope reveals that as a prime example of quote mining.  That was a partial sentence.  The rest of the sentence read, "... as with any form of socialism."

I will be busy this week.  I'll dig up my 2 sources next week to document that.


Offline Historicity

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2011, 12:56:21 PM »
On a tangent -- as I read down in Coell Hellier's article I found this.

Compare:

Quote
“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them.” (Adolf Hitler, speech, April 12 1922).

to the American Family Association's Rev. Bryan Fischer in his essay on the Feminization of the Medal of Honor:
Quote
However, Jesus’ act of self-sacrifice would ultimately have been meaningless - yes, meaningless - if he had not inflicted a mortal wound on the enemy while giving up his own life.

The significance of the cross is not just that Jesus laid down his life for us, but that he defeated the enemy of our souls in the process. It was on the cross that he crushed the head of the serpent. It was on the cross that “he disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in it” (Colossians 2:15).

The cross represented a cosmic showdown between the forces of light and the forces of darkness, and our commanding general claimed the ultimate prize by defeating our unseen enemy and liberating an entire planet from his bondage.

Offline velkyn

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2011, 01:10:52 PM »
interesting.  it's always amusing that AFA will ignore that God/JC evidently needed this "enemy" for this nonsense to work. 
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Offline Historicity

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2011, 02:02:25 PM »
An error by Hellier:
Quote
Christian claims of being “persecuted” by the Nazis originated soon after the war among Allies who were, of course, predominantly Christian themselves, and who had an interest in disassociating the Nazis from Christianity as much as possible.

Contrast:


And from FDR's acceptance speech at the 1940 Democratic National Convention:
Quote
· I have pursued these efforts in the face of appeaser fifth columnists who charged me with hysteria and war-mongering. But I felt it my duty, my simple, plain, inescapable duty, to arouse my countrymen to the danger of the new forces let loose in the world.

So long as I am President, I will do all I can to insure that that foreign policy remain our foreign policy.

All that I have done to maintain the peace of this country and to prepare it morally, as well as physically, for whatever contingencies may be in store, I submit to the judgment of my countrymen. We face one of the great choices of history.

It is not alone a choice of Government by the people versus dictatorship.

It is not alone a choice of freedom versus slavery.

It is not alone a choice between moving forward or falling back. It is all of these rolled into one.

It is the continuance of civilization as we know it versus the ultimate destruction of all that we have held dear—religion against godlessness; the ideal of justice against the practice of force; moral decency versus the firing squad; courage to speak out, and to act, versus the false lullaby of appeasement.

So, in contrast to Hellier, it was early in the war that Naziism was equated to atheism.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 02:04:00 PM by Historicity »

Offline velkyn

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2011, 02:21:40 PM »
or "religon that wasn't ours" but it certainly looks that way as you say.  Very nice work, historicity (living up to your name I see  ;D )
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2011, 05:28:24 PM »
Looking at this article, it seems obvious to me that Hitler probably loathed American racial mixing and would have gleefully tried to conquer us if he had managed to consolidate his position enough.

Offline Historicity

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2011, 06:33:22 PM »
Looking at this article, it seems obvious to me that Hitler probably loathed American racial mixing and would have gleefully tried to conquer us if he had managed to consolidate his position enough.
I have to crossreference 2 other books, The Strange History of Jim Crow about how America invented segregation circa 1890 and The Last Jews in Berlin.

The author of TSHoJC quoted a report by a South African reported visiting the US who wrote, "You control your blacks better than we do" and he used the words "final solution".  In the early 1900s South Africa introduced apartheid.  The author did not draw the conclusion but it appears to me that apartheid was copied from segregation.

Unfortunately we have been a world model for racism.  No back to the main subject.

In TLJiB there was a SS investigator interviewing a married couple who had a cousin and his wife living with them after their home had been bombed out in another city along with their identity papers. That was the story the 4 were sticking to.  Actually they were a Catholic couple and the other couple were Jews.  The investigator gave an attitude of "I'm not buying this" but closed up the briefcase and left.  The woman said goodbye which is aufwiedersehen = until-again-to-see = "See you later."  "You better hope not," said the investigator.

Outside of the Final Solution there was a complex of laws.  Jews were forbidden any good jobs and were doing scut work like digging ditches and collecting garbage.  It appears to me that to a great number of midlevel Nazis a final solution was to reduce Jews to shoe shine boys and have an occasional lynching to terrify them.

Martin Gardner gave an odd incident from Naziism.  Of course all party members had to have a genealogy check going back to 1750.  For one newspaper propagandist they didn't have to go that far.  His mother was American.  She was half Dakota.  But he was well liked and valuable.  So after conferring about it the Dakota tribe was declared Auslandeutsch -- foreign Germans.  There was no further ruling on other Indians.  A lot of Germans have always admired the American Indians.  When a German tries to reconstruct what German barbarism would have been like around 200 BC or so they are stuck.  We don't know much about the customs.  The Germans figure that they lived about like American Indians.

So drifting into scifi concepts I imagine an American SS in the Nazi occupation that had American Indians in the black uniforms.

Similar to this do you remember the movie Predator?  Do you remember the American Indian commando with the Bowie knife?  That was Sonny Landham from Georgia, a real American Indian.  Well, he joined the Council of Conservative Citizens, a white racist group.  He once ran for office in Kentucky, calling for a genocidal war against the Arabs.


Online Fiji

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2011, 02:35:46 AM »
or "religon that wasn't ours" but it certainly looks that way as you say.  Very nice work, historicity (living up to your name I see  ;D )

Good point velkyn, religions don't tend to make the distinction between "atheist" and "serving a different god".
Since, in their mind, there ARE no other gods, so the pagans are not really worshipping anyone.
(The Quran, fe, expressly makes this point in the second sura)
So, in this mindset, pagans/nazis implicitly worship no gods a while Atheists explicitly worship no gods.


So drifting into scifi concepts I imagine an American SS in the Nazi occupation that had American Indians in the black uniforms.

Didn't Harry Turtledove use a concept like that in ... erm ... I use to have a memory, you know.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2011, 09:46:14 AM »
Fiji:  Turtledove wrote a fairly lengthy book series that involved the South easily winning the Civil War (due to Lee not losing the orders that allowed McClellan to stop him at Antietam), then several additional books (in several series) which followed the alternate history that might have happened.  Basically, the U.S. allied with Germany in WWI, as a result, England, France, and the Confederacy got their butts kicked, so a Hitler-analogue rose to power in the South and did a home-brewed holocaust of blacks.

Historicity:  I was referring more to the fact that America allowed immigrants from practically anywhere, and after a generation or two, they were themselves Americans.  I don't doubt that Hitler would have made common cause with certain groups of Americans; it's the country as a whole that would have had problems.

Offline Historicity

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2011, 05:50:23 PM »
Historicity:  I was referring more to the fact that America allowed immigrants from practically anywhere, and after a generation or two, they were themselves Americans.  I don't doubt that Hitler would have made common cause with certain groups of Americans; it's the country as a whole that would have had problems.

Answering on a weasely tangent[1], I once read an old book published just before WW2 called America Underground.  It was a series done by a reporter for Fortune magazine.  He infiltrated a number of the 5th column groups.  One odd one was a Nazi propagandist in Harlem.  He was promising that an Axis victory would mean black liberation.  His argument?  That the Japanese are colored, so the Axis was really on their side. 

IIRC the book was published in 1941 and my library had a old copy.

 1. For me, atheism is a commitment to truth, so unlike the theists posting my conscience requires me to say that.

Offline Maxwell

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Re: a nice take-down of the "Nazis were atheists" nonsense
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2011, 07:43:55 AM »
Looking at this article, it seems obvious to me that Hitler probably loathed American racial mixing and would have gleefully tried to conquer us if he had managed to consolidate his position enough.

He disliked certain races, we know that for certain.