Author Topic: Most True Christians Are Sadists  (Read 12379 times)

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #348 on: November 22, 2011, 03:11:37 PM »

Kindly explain how you know the makeup or operation of God's moral compass. You seem to presume that it is the same as mine or yours?


You presume that it isn't.

Oh and to answer your question, the bible tells us, and so do people like you. We just take your claims and run with it where it leads.

To bring up a previous point that you dodged earlier.

We don't have to be god in order to judge him. Remember your own bible? We know good and evil as god does, we have the knowledge from the tree. If we have the same understanding of good and evil then we should be able to judge him on those terms, and gods actions are clearly that of an evil being.

Even if we didn't have that knowledge though, it doesn't matter. Even if we can't grasp these things as you say, it doesn't make god a good being. It makes god an ambiguous entity, which still brings us right back to the point that your belief that god is good is based on nothing more than your own desire to believe it.

Furthermore if we can't understand whether god is good or evil, why should we follow him if he behaves in a way that we perceive to be evil? True, god may be bucthering children and it may actually be ultimately for a good reason. However if from our limited perspective everything we can understand about god shows that he is evil and a monster, why shouldn't we believe that's what god actually is? Should we actually just assume that he's doing the good thing just because he tells us he is?

That's insanely stupid, BS. Even you must realize that.

God is not a physical being with the same limited mind and abilities.

Your own assertion, not a fact. Furthermore a non-physical being is one that would have no measurable effect on our reality. So god can't be a non-physical being.

So there's another failure on your part.

I will use the example of 'imminent domain' to illustrate. You have no legal right to arbitrarily seize another person's property thus making any effort to do so 'wrong.' However, the very authoritative bodies that declare it wrong for you and I are able to seize or claim property within the confines of the law.

This does not make it morally right to do so however. It just means they have the power to do so and you might not be able to prevent it.

Another example: I can tell my children that arguing with an adult is 'wrong' but I can argue with another adult and not be wrong. In other words, the maker of the 'right' and 'wrong' may not necessarily be bound to them in the same manner as those to whom the maker has given the standards to.

By that logic the government is free to arbitrarily decide to kill you.

And yes, he is bound to them. If your claims of morality being objective are true. If he is not bound to them then it is subjective. What you are arguing is not that morality isn't subjective. You are arguing that god being god entitles him to force his own subjective morality on us.

All this time and you still wallow in the same ignorance, BS. You don't even understand your own arguments.

This getting sad to watch.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 03:13:40 PM by Alzael »
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #349 on: November 22, 2011, 03:19:41 PM »
Kindly explain how you know the makeup or operation of God's moral compass. You seem to presume that it is the same as mine or yours?

BS, this whole "you can't claim to know god" thing fails as an argument right out of the starting gate. It fails because you do, in fact, claim to know the mind of god.

That's what your entire religion is.

You see BS, if you can't know something, then you can't make claims about it. At least not honestly. However you make claims about your god all the time. You just finished claiming that he gave us morality. You claim he is good. You claim he is non-physical. You claim he does not have a mind like us. It's only when your claims work against you that you try to hide behind like a coward and cry that gods ways can't be known.

So either every claim that you've made about god and everything else is an unevidenced opinion at best, or a lie at worst. Or we can know god and his will. You can't have it both ways (at least not honestly).

So let's see what pathetic excuse you provide next. I'm all quivering with excitement.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 03:21:25 PM by Alzael »
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #350 on: November 22, 2011, 03:20:21 PM »
The non-theist theist account for morality lacks any consensus and all assertions are subjective. There are many different people making many different ‘guesses.’ For example, to cite a few, Dawkins Christians say it stems from a selfish gene the Bible, Ruse Muslims say it is an evolutionary illusion explained in the Koran, Walter Sinnott Taoists say morality just simply “is,” and the author of the article I linked to above author of other articles I could also find but can't be bothered to right now says [atheists) [theists) should just be silent about it because they cannot account for it.

The only consensus seems to be that “evolution god diddit”….which amounts to nothing more than an opinion.

FTFY.   ;)
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Offline C

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #351 on: November 22, 2011, 03:23:52 PM »
Kindly explain how you know the makeup or operation of God's moral compass.

Well, gee, there's an entire book and a plethora of religious denominations centered around the Christian God and on what he did in his early days and his later days. How your God acted throughout the Bible, pretty much sums his moral compass up.

Quote
You seem to presume that it is the same as mine or yours? God is not a physical being with the same limited mind and abilities.


Uh, you did say this:

Quote
What I'm saying is that ALL people were created by God and equipped with, built with, an ability to understand and embrace what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' according to the moral standards He has set.

You say God equipped us with a moral compass, with these moral standards it set for us. Well, uh, there you go?

And kindly please explain how you know that God i- ah right, no evidence. Forgot about that.

Quote
I will use the example of 'imminent domain' to illustrate. You have no legal right to arbitrarily seize another person's property thus making any effort to do so 'wrong.' However, the very authoritative bodies that declare it wrong for you and I are able to seize or claim property within the confines of the law.

I have no LEGAL right, but I CAN seize your property without a thought lending to the notion that stealing it is 'wrong'. Legality and ability are completely different things while the area between them, morality, just sits there in this case.

Quote
Another example: I can tell my children that arguing with an adult is 'wrong' but I can argue with another adult and not be wrong. In other words, the maker of the 'right' and 'wrong' may not necessarily be bound to them in the same manner as those to whom the maker has given the standards to.

-_-, so what you're saying is, the moral standards God supposedly gave humanity are only for humanity but not himself such as not killing? So it can do whatever it wants? In what way is that "good"? Do you know how stupid that is? That's like giving birth to 10 children and then giving them strict rules to not steal and not kill while you just shoplift and assassinate random homeless people out on the streets. It's hypocritical.

By the way, I'm using my moral compass right now that God supposedly gave me to judge him. Do you see any problems yet?

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And, for the record, I am in no way conceding that the accusations you made against God are true.

But..you kinda did..

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I do not understand what you are getting at here.

Here:

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Because we believe that God created us all with a sense of 'right' and 'wrong'....Christian or not.

You say that God created all of us with an innate sense of "right" and "wrong", aka morality. Then you said, it doesn't matter if we're Christian or not to have this morality installed by Human IT Tech God. And from that alone, you implied it doesn't matter if you're Buddhist, Hindu or whatever, God gave you morality.

Then when I asked you to clarify, you said that by "we", it is only Christians and those who acknowledge God/Yahweh in other religions get this innate, "objective" morality effectively excluding the people who DON'T acknowledge Yahweh at all.

Then in the following sentence you say:

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Some societies have (with or without acknowledging God) embraced it better than others.

Going against what you said earlier about "objective" morality and what you just clarified. Do you see now?


Quote
No.

Then what are you referring to? That was a "different flavor" and "size" right?

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The non-theist account for morality lacks any consensus and all assertions are subjective.

FINALLY, YOU SORT OF UNDERSTAND!
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Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #352 on: November 22, 2011, 03:24:13 PM »
The non-theist theist account for morality lacks any consensus and all assertions are subjective. There are many different people making many different ‘guesses.’ For example, to cite a few, Dawkins Christians say it stems from a selfish gene the Bible, Ruse Muslims say it is an evolutionary illusion explained in the Koran, Walter Sinnott Taoists say morality just simply “is,” and the author of the article I linked to above author of other articles I could also find but can't be bothered to right now says [atheists) [theists) should just be silent about it because they cannot account for it.

The only consensus seems to be that “evolution god diddit”….which amounts to nothing more than an opinion.

FTFY.   ;)

Nice. Clever, too. Guess I walked right into that one  ;D

Still doesn't refute the claim I am making, though.


Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #353 on: November 22, 2011, 03:32:03 PM »
Besides which, if we are supposedly made 'in his image", there must be some similarity, be it mental, physical, moral or whatever which is a reflection of God. Much more so, one would think than there would be between us and ants, for example.

Even if you grant that there is a vast difference in power and knowledge, our minds must be some shadow of his. And if, on top of that, he supposedly implanted a moral compass, one would think that what we generally find abhorrent must not be pleasing to God.

Of course, the Bible was written back in the day that wholesale slaughter was far more palatable than it is today, so maybe we have drifted away from the ideal by not dashing babies against rocks.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #354 on: November 22, 2011, 03:44:47 PM »
Quote
You seem to presume that it is the same as mine or yours? God is not a physical being with the same limited mind and abilities.


Uh, you did say this:

Quote
What I'm saying is that ALL people were created by God and equipped with, built with, an ability to understand and embrace what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' according to the moral standards He has set.

You say God equipped us with a moral compass, with these moral standards it set for us. Well, uh, there you go?

You keep ignoring my contention that God, being the maker of the moral law, is not necessarily bound to it in the same way you and I are. I have repeatedly asserted this to no avail. You keep repeating the same things over and over and skipping right past this part.

Quote
I have no LEGAL right, but I CAN seize your property without a thought lending to the notion that stealing it is 'wrong'. Legality and ability are completely different things while the area between them, morality, just sits there in this case.

The example I gave was not an illustration having specifically to do with  'morals.' It is an example as to how authority can and does operate. I used it to demonstrate a real life example of how authority can make certain rules/law but not be bound to them in the same manner as those who they are intended to contain. Not sure why you added the 'stealing' element.

Quote
Quote
I do not understand what you are getting at here.
Here:
Quote
Because we believe that God created us all with a sense of 'right' and 'wrong'....Christian or not.
You say that God created all of us with an innate sense of "right" and "wrong", aka morality. Then you said, it doesn't matter if we're Christian or not to have this morality installed by Human IT Tech God. And from that alone, you implied it doesn't matter if you're Buddhist, Hindu or whatever, God gave you morality.

Then when I asked you to clarify, you said that by "we", it is only Christians and those who acknowledge God/Yahweh in other religions get this innate, "objective" morality effectively excluding the people who DON'T acknowledge Yahweh at all.

Then in the following sentence you say:

Quote
Some societies have (with or without acknowledging God) embraced it better than others.

Going against what you said earlier about "objective" morality and what you just clarified. Do you see now?

I have no clue how you got off in the direction you've gone here. All I said was that "we" (Christians) believe that God equipped ALL people (whether Hindu, Buudhist, Muslim, etc etc) with the same moral compass (<--- to borrow your word).



Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #355 on: November 22, 2011, 03:51:04 PM »
You keep ignoring my contention that God, being the maker of the moral law, is not necessarily bound to it in the same way you and I are. I have repeatedly asserted this to no avail. You keep repeating the same things over and over and skipping right past this part.

No one is ignoring it. They are reufting it.

1) It's an assertion

2) It ruins your argument for objectivity

3) It does not equal morality, it equals obedience.

4) If god expects us to live up to morals that he himself won't/can't it makes him a hypocrite.

BS, he's repeating the same things over and over again because you're simply repeating the same argument that's being refuted. If you don't provide any new argument for the claim, how can he provide a new counter-argument.

Tsk, tsk, you always have to have somebody else to blame for your own failings. Don't you?

I also notice a distinct lack of evidence being produced. You did say that you had it, right?
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Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #356 on: November 22, 2011, 03:53:59 PM »
I have no clue how you got off in the direction you've gone here. All I said was that "we" (Christians) believe that God equipped ALL people (whether Hindu, Buudhist, Muslim, etc etc) with the same moral compass (<--- to borrow your word).

So why are Christians so bad at following it, if they have the "right" religion? You'd think they'd at least have some sort of leg-up on the competition.
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Offline C

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #357 on: November 22, 2011, 04:03:23 PM »
You keep ignoring my contention that God, being the maker of the moral law, is not necessarily bound to it in the same way you and I are. I have repeatedly asserted this to no avail. You keep repeating the same things over and over and skipping right past this part.

Funny, what ever happened to this:

Quote
Genesis 1:27 (NIV):
So God created mankind in his own image,
   in the image of God he created them;
   male and female he created them.

Sure, I will concede to you that God doesn't have to be like US. But we sure as hell can be like GOD.
Ultimately it does not matter.

By the way, you completely ignored this:

Quote
-_-, so what you're saying is, the moral standards God supposedly gave humanity are only for humanity but not himself such as not killing? So it can do whatever it wants? In what way is that "good"? Do you know how stupid that is? That's like giving birth to 10 children and then giving them strict rules to not steal and not kill while you just shoplift and assassinate random homeless people out on the streets. It's hypocritical.

By the way, I'm using my moral compass right now that God supposedly gave me to judge him. Do you see any problems yet?


Quote
The example I gave was not an illustration having specifically to do with  'morals.' It is an example as to how authority can and does operate. I used it to demonstrate a real life example of how authority can make certain rules/law but not be bound to them in the same manner as those who they are intended to contain.

....What perverse authority is above the law? Oh, that's right! Tyrants! Dictators! God!

Quote
Not sure why you added the 'stealing' element.

Well...let's take a look (bolded):

Quote
I will use the example of 'imminent domain' to illustrate. You have no legal right to arbitrarily seize another person's property thus making any effort to do so 'wrong.' However, the very authoritative bodies that declare it wrong for you and I are able to seize or claim property within the confines of the law.

That's why.

Quote
I have no clue how you got off in the direction you've gone here. All I said was that "we" (Christians) believe that God equipped ALL people (whether Hindu, Buudhist, Muslim, etc etc) with the same moral compass (<--- to borrow your word).

No BS, now you're just being a wanker, this is what happened, like, MOMENTS AGO, and you miraculously forgot about it:

First you said:

Quote
Because we believe that God created us all with a sense of 'right' and 'wrong'....Christian or not.

You DO NOT SAY that CHRISTIANS believe God created all of us with innate morality. You say 'we'.

So I ASKED YOU TO CLARIFY WHICH LED TO THIS:

Quote
We = Christians and any other religion that acknowledges Yahweh.

Still here you don't only say Christians but you say "ANY OTHER RELIGION THAT ACKNOWLEDGES YAHWEH" which would leave room for, indeed, some other religions BUT would exclude ALL OTHER PEOPLES that do NOT acknowledge Yahweh.

And THEN I pointed out what you said RIGHT AFTER the above quote (Because we believe that God created us...):

Quote
Some societies have (with or without acknowledging God) embraced it better than others.

Which LED ME TO POINTING OUT that you contradicted yourself on morality being "objective" since

A) This is God's moral standards handed down to us, from ITS POV.
B) Societies indeed do NOT need to acknowledge nor even actually need the Christian God to form functioning societies.

NOW, do you see?

Also I advise you to stop claiming and asserting more things about this God (who you said that no one comprehends but people can conveniently claim things about all the same!), since you have already admitted multiple times you have no evidence.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #358 on: November 22, 2011, 04:09:12 PM »
You know, this is actually the best of both worlds. I get to tear apart BS's ridiculously infantile arguments, while at the same time watching everyone else tear them apart as a bystander.
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Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #359 on: November 22, 2011, 04:24:09 PM »
You keep ignoring my contention that God, being the maker of the moral law, is not necessarily bound to it in the same way you and I are. I have repeatedly asserted this to no avail. You keep repeating the same things over and over and skipping right past this part.

Funny, what ever happened to this:

Quote
Genesis 1:27 (NIV):
So God created mankind in his own image,
   in the image of God he created them;
   male and female he created them.

Sure, I will concede to you that God doesn't have to be like US. But we sure as hell can be like GOD.
Ultimately it does not matter.

I take it to mean that you think that verse you cited means that we are equal to God?

Quote
By the way, you completely ignored this:

Quote
-_-, so what you're saying is, the moral standards God supposedly gave humanity are only for humanity but not himself such as not killing? So it can do whatever it wants? In what way is that "good"? Do you know how stupid that is? That's like giving birth to 10 children and then giving them strict rules to not steal and not kill while you just shoplift and assassinate random homeless people out on the streets. It's hypocritical.

By the way, I'm using my moral compass right now that God supposedly gave me to judge him. Do you see any problems yet?

Why is it so difficult to understand and accept that the Maker of the moral rule may not be bound to it in the same fashion as you and I? If, when you were 8 years old, one of your parents told you that arguing with adults was ‘wrong’ but then five minutes later you observed that same parent having an argument with another adult, would you pass judgment on your parent for not practicing what they preach? Of course not. The parent possesses the authority to set a boundary that they themselves are not bound by

As far as you judging God, it’s your prerogative to interact with Him as you see fit.



Offline Truth OT

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #360 on: November 22, 2011, 04:24:18 PM »
Quote
The ends very seldom justify the means.  Occasionally one has to let them, but it doesn't work if the ends are always used to justify the means, because then the means corrupt the ends.
What ???
I didn't think it was all that complicated of a concept.

Someone has a noble goal.  They use non-noble means to try to reach that goal.  As a result, the goal is tainted and corrupted by the means used to try to get to it.

Let's take, oh, say God and his presumed goal of saving humankind from suffering, sin, etc.  As a means to that goal, according to the Bible, he caused the flood and killed all but a mere handful of humans off entirely.  In other words, his fine, noble goal of saving humanity from suffering, sin, and so on at one point required that the vast majority of humans suffer very greatly for a short time and then die.  Again, according to the Bible.  And let's not forget hell; apparently, in order to save humankind from suffering and sin, it's necessary to force a significant subset of the human race to undergo endless suffering because of sins in hell, at least according to a depressing number of true believer Christians anyway.

At what point does this fine, noble goal end up requiring so much awfulness that it's not worth the cost?  That's why the means used to accomplish a goal are just as important as the end of the goal itself.

This is a tangent, but so what, I wanna go there.
If we were to accept the scriptures as truly God inspired, I fail to see how a reasonable person could conclude that God's plan was to save humankind from anything. It seems more reasonable that humankind was/is but one of perhaps various pawns in a plan of God that is not clearly revealed.
In fact, the only logic that one can see in God even creating mankind is that He did so in order to have Jesus, the "perfect" human speciman and His Anointed One come into existance, prove his worth, and then redeem all God had lost back into, according to Colossians 1:19-20, "a good relationship with Himself, by making peace through Jesus' blood [that was shed] on the pole, regardless of whether these things are heavenly or earthly."

So it appears that something "went down" prior to man coming on the scene that perhaps required man being created in order to helf God achieve a goal.

 

Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #361 on: November 22, 2011, 04:28:33 PM »

Why is it so difficult to understand and accept that the Maker of the moral rule may not be bound to it in the same fashion as you and I?

Because your only justification for why this is true is because you say so. Which has been pointed out ad nauseam by everyone here.

Why is it so difficult for you to actually respond to all of the criticisms levelled against your position?


Aside:I think I actually heard his testacles retract this time.
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Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #362 on: November 22, 2011, 04:29:17 PM »
NOW, do you see?

I’ll try this one last time. Let’s see if this clarifies it for you:

When I said “we” I was referring to people (Christians included) who acknowledge the existence of Yahweh. That is, “we” believe that God equipped ALL people (regardless of religious belief, color, size, sex, etc) with a sense of ‘right’ and ‘wrong.’

Offline Traveler

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #363 on: November 22, 2011, 04:34:45 PM »
...Why is it so difficult to understand and accept that the Maker of the moral rule may not be bound to it in the same fashion as you and I? If, when you were 8 years old, one of your parents told you that arguing with adults was ‘wrong’ but then five minutes later you observed that same parent having an argument with another adult, would you pass judgment on your parent for not practicing what they preach? Of course not. The parent possesses the authority to set a boundary that they themselves are not bound by...

I disagree with this. There's a difference between an argument and a discussion about differences. I think if adults would stick with the rules they give to children, perhaps this would be a kinder, gentler, more enlightened world. There's a book entitled All I Really Need To Know I Learned In Kindergarten. I'm not sure that any double standard between adult and children's behavior isn't a false dichotomy. I certainly feel that way about your opinions about god. You're accepting what, to any reasoned person, is unacceptable behavior. I'm of the firm opinion that beings in power should be held to a higher standard. Kings, queens, emperors, popes, parents ... all should set an example for their "underlings". I don't see why a god should be any different.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #364 on: November 22, 2011, 04:37:31 PM »
...When I said “we” I was referring to people (Christians included) who acknowledge the existence of Yahweh. That is, “we” believe that God equipped ALL people (regardless of religious belief, color, size, sex, etc) with a sense of ‘right’ and ‘wrong.’

If god equipped us all equally with this sense of right and wrong, why are we in such violent disagreement about what constitutes right and wrong? Shouldn't such an equipage pretty much eliminate world war and strife? I know you think you're being clear, but this makes no sense to me. If you're correct, why is there so much hatred in the world about basic principles?
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Offline Dante

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #365 on: November 22, 2011, 04:41:19 PM »
If you're correct, why is there so much hatred in the world about basic principles?

C'mon Traveler, you already know the answer.

It's all Satan's fault.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #366 on: November 22, 2011, 04:41:50 PM »
If god equipped us all equally with this sense of right and wrong, why are we in such violent disagreement about what constitutes right and wrong? Shouldn't such an equipage pretty much eliminate world war and strife? I know you think you're being clear, but this makes no sense to me. If you're correct, why is there so much hatred in the world about basic principles?

The problem is that he himself doesn't even understand his own argument.

In the threads before we went through pages of discussion trying to get him to grasp the concept of what objective and subjective actually meant. He still doesn't get it because he didn't bother to listen then. Just as he doesn't bother to listen now.

Likewise in the old evolution thread he started off by claiming that he had studied evolution thoroughly, but couldn't even explain or discuss the most basic concepts of the theory. No matter how much it was tried to explain it to him, he kept on with his own stupid definitions and ideas.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 04:43:51 PM by Alzael »
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Online JeffPT

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #367 on: November 22, 2011, 04:52:20 PM »
The non-theist account for morality lacks any consensus and all assertions are subjective.

And this differs from the experiences we see every single day of our lives in what way?  Is that not a valid assertion to make in light of the fact that EVERYONE has different beliefs when it comes to morality? 

There are many different people making many different ‘guesses.’

Nobody is guessing. It's what they think.  It's their opinion.  By using the word "guessing" you make it sound like we are all struggling to find the same target, when in actuality, each of us have our own target, and mine doesn't have to be the same as yours.  What's right for me is right for me.  What's right for you is right for you.  There is no "right" version for everyone.  And it's stupid to even suggest there has to be.  Why is this so difficult for you people to understand? 

I think murder is bad.  I think strawberries taste good.  I think circumcision is genital mutilation.  I think the Red Sox are the best baseball team.  I think genocide is wrong.  I think Obama is a fine president.  Those are all opinions, are they not?  Why do you think you need the backing of an invisible sky man to say any of those?  The only difference is that we attach the word "moral" to some of them because they mean more to us.  There's nothing more to it than that.  They are all still opinions. 

I’ll try this one last time. Let’s see if this clarifies it for you:

When I said “we” I was referring to people (Christians included) who acknowledge the existence of Yahweh. That is, “we” believe that God equipped ALL people (regardless of religious belief, color, size, sex, etc) with a sense of ‘right’ and ‘wrong.’

I know I should not be getting into this with you again, because you just piss me off with your inability to grasp this subject, but I just can't resist.  This argument of yours is just so bad.

If we are to assume that what you say is true, then how do you explain the fact that people all around the world have a different sense of what 'right' and 'wrong' are?  Would you not expect that if our morality came from one source, that it would be identical among everyone?  Why would we not all have been equipped with the one, true version of right and wrong?  Which among us was imbued with the one true version of right and wrong?   How do you account for the fact that within a culture, morality among the individuals is nearly the same, but morality is not always the same between cultures?  How do you account for the fact that our moral viewpoints can change during a lifetime?  How do you account for the fact that our moral views can change with brain damage and chemical changes? 

The idea that morality is subjective and that it comes from evolution and experiences covers all that handily, without the unnecessary addition of a deity.  If you can answer all of those questions in a better way than the subjective morality theory, then please do.  Otherwise, you lose.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #368 on: November 22, 2011, 05:01:41 PM »
...When I said “we” I was referring to people (Christians included) who acknowledge the existence of Yahweh. That is, “we” believe that God equipped ALL people (regardless of religious belief, color, size, sex, etc) with a sense of ‘right’ and ‘wrong.’

If god equipped us all equally with this sense of right and wrong, why are we in such violent disagreement about what constitutes right and wrong? Shouldn't such an equipage pretty much eliminate world war and strife? I know you think you're being clear, but this makes no sense to me. If you're correct, why is there so much hatred in the world about basic principles?

If all people were Christian, do you think there would still be a violent disagreement about all of the same issues?

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #369 on: November 22, 2011, 05:06:04 PM »
...Why is it so difficult to understand and accept that the Maker of the moral rule may not be bound to it in the same fashion as you and I? If, when you were 8 years old, one of your parents told you that arguing with adults was ‘wrong’ but then five minutes later you observed that same parent having an argument with another adult, would you pass judgment on your parent for not practicing what they preach? Of course not. The parent possesses the authority to set a boundary that they themselves are not bound by...

I disagree with this. There's a difference between an argument and a discussion about differences. I think if adults would stick with the rules they give to children, perhaps this would be a kinder, gentler, more enlightened world. There's a book entitled All I Really Need To Know I Learned In Kindergarten. I'm not sure that any double standard between adult and children's behavior isn't a false dichotomy. I certainly feel that way about your opinions about god. You're accepting what, to any reasoned person, is unacceptable behavior. I'm of the firm opinion that beings in power should be held to a higher standard. Kings, queens, emperors, popes, parents ... all should set an example for their "underlings". I don't see why a god should be any different.

I don't disagree with your position that people in authority should be held to a higher standard....but you can't project that same set of standards. Well, you can, it just doesn't follow that the Creator should be held to a standard that the created somehow devised.


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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #370 on: November 22, 2011, 05:08:19 PM »
If all people were Christian, do you think there would still be a violent disagreement about all of the same issues?

All of the same issues?  Not sure.  Violent disagreement?  Yes, absolutely.  The Crusades and Northern Ireland come to mind, just offhand.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #371 on: November 22, 2011, 05:10:42 PM »
...Why is it so difficult to understand and accept that the Maker of the moral rule may not be bound to it in the same fashion as you and I? If, when you were 8 years old, one of your parents told you that arguing with adults was ‘wrong’ but then five minutes later you observed that same parent having an argument with another adult, would you pass judgment on your parent for not practicing what they preach? Of course not. The parent possesses the authority to set a boundary that they themselves are not bound by...

I disagree with this. There's a difference between an argument and a discussion about differences. I think if adults would stick with the rules they give to children, perhaps this would be a kinder, gentler, more enlightened world. There's a book entitled All I Really Need To Know I Learned In Kindergarten. I'm not sure that any double standard between adult and children's behavior isn't a false dichotomy. I certainly feel that way about your opinions about god. You're accepting what, to any reasoned person, is unacceptable behavior. I'm of the firm opinion that beings in power should be held to a higher standard. Kings, queens, emperors, popes, parents ... all should set an example for their "underlings". I don't see why a god should be any different.

To be fair to BS, I can see where he's coming from with his/her argument. It seems like what BS is saying is that the God/human dynamic is unlike the parent/child or peer to peer dynamic and more comparible to a human/parasite relationship where the parasite needs the human to live, move, and have its being and the human is benevolent if it allows it and is not malevolent if it destroys the parasite. To God, man apparently is a parasite that is infinitely below Him in His eyes much the same way a flea, lice, a tick, or a misquito is below one of us. The only way we are worthy of life is if we submit to God's requirements, otherwise we serve Him no purpose and are but parasites that must be destroyed. Our destruction or clemancy is ultimately then not a reflection on the charactor of God as we are so far below Him that what He does to us is ultimately inconsequential as it pertains to His charactor unless He decides to create Parasite Paradise where we can live in peace and have the sustanance we need forever without having to worry about being killed or threatened ever again by an unwelcoming host.
So, God can piss on the ant hill, throw lighter fluid on it and set it on fire, and still be considered as good because after all, we are just parasites. 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 05:28:01 PM by Truth OT »

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #372 on: November 22, 2011, 05:23:16 PM »
The non-theist account for morality lacks any consensus and all assertions are subjective.

And this differs from the experiences we see every single day of our lives in what way?  Is that not a valid assertion to make in light of the fact that EVERYONE has different beliefs when it comes to morality? 

You are missing the point behind the point. Making claims that evolution explains where our morality was born is speculative at best. Since when is anything you would assert to be true based on speculation rather than on the results of a properly conducted scientific investigation? 

There are many different people making many different ‘guesses.’

Quote
Nobody is guessing. It's what they think.  It's their opinion.  By using the word "guessing" you make it sound like we are all struggling to find the same target, when in actuality, each of us have our own target, and mine doesn't have to be the same as yours.  What's right for me is right for me.  What's right for you is right for you.  There is no "right" version for everyone.  And it's stupid to even suggest there has to be.  Why is this so difficult for you people to understand?

The target is a valid demonstrable account for where morality originated....so, yes, I would like to think that the target is the same. How can you have a different target for the same thing. This makes no sense.

Quote
I’ll try this one last time. Let’s see if this clarifies it for you:

When I said “we” I was referring to people (Christians included) who acknowledge the existence of Yahweh. That is, “we” believe that God equipped ALL people (regardless of religious belief, color, size, sex, etc) with a sense of ‘right’ and ‘wrong.’

I know I should not be getting into this with you again, because you just piss me off with your inability to grasp this subject, but I just can't resist.  This argument of yours is just so bad.

If we are to assume that what you say is true, then how do you explain the fact that people all around the world have a different sense of what 'right' and 'wrong' are?  Would you not expect that if our morality came from one source, that it would be identical among everyone?  Why would we not all have been equipped with the one, true version of right and wrong? 

Very simple. We all have varying beliefs in where the morality originated from and who created the standards those morals should adhere to. This should be rather obvious.

Quote
Which among us was imbued with the one true version of right and wrong?   How do you account for the fact that within a culture, morality among the individuals is nearly the same, but morality is not always the same between cultures?

If all people were Christian, do you think there would still be disagreement about all of the same issues?

Quote
How do you account for the fact that our moral viewpoints can change during a lifetime?

Simple fine tuning for some and a perversion for others....but both based on experiences and things learned.

Quote
How do you account for the fact that our moral views can change with brain damage and chemical changes?

Could you kindly explain further? I believe I know where you are going but would appreciate some clarification and maybe even an example or two. Thanks.
 
Quote
The idea that morality is subjective and that it comes from evolution and experiences covers all that handily, without the unnecessary addition of a deity.  If you can answer all of those questions in a better way than the subjective morality theory, then please do.  Otherwise, you lose.   

No one is trying to force you into accepting anything, Jeff. Ultimately, you get to make the choice whether a deity is behind it or not.




Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #373 on: November 22, 2011, 05:25:05 PM »

To be fair to BS, I can see where he's coming from with his/her argument. It seems like what BS is saying is that the God/human dynamic is unlike the parent/child or peer to peer dynamic and more comparible to a human/parasite relationship where the parasite needs the human to life, move, and have its being and the human is benevolent if it allows it and is not malevolent if it destroys the parasite. To God, man apparently is a parasite that is infinitely below Him in His eyes much the same way a flea, lice, a tick, or a misquito is below one of us. The only way we are worthy of life is if we submit to God's requirements, otherwise we serve Him no purpose and are but parasites that must be destroyed. Our destruction or clemancy is ultimately then not a reflection on the charactor of God as we are so far below Him that what He does to us is ultimately inconsequential as it pertains to His charactor unless He decides to create Parasite Paradise where we can live in peace and have the sustanance we need forever without having to worry about being killed or threatened ever again by an unwelcoming host.
So, God can piss on the ant hill, throw lighter fluid on it and set it on fire, and still be considered as good because after all, we are just parasites.

The problem is that this destroys his contention of there being an objective morality. Which is where his arguments always fail. He doesn't want to believe that morals are subjective, which is why he uses god. However he refuses to grasp that this makes his morals equally subjective.

The other problem is that if god can do anything he wants and be good then good and evil lose all meaning as concepts anyway in relation to him. What you are really saying at this point is that god has no morality at all. Because he never has to adhere to any sort of code, as his actions are always redefined as good.


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Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #374 on: November 22, 2011, 05:25:20 PM »
If all people were Christian, do you think there would still be a violent disagreement about all of the same issues?

All of the same issues?  Not sure.  Violent disagreement?  Yes, absolutely.  The Crusades and Northern Ireland come to mind, just offhand.

If you feel there is any threat of similar events taking place in our day and age, then your point is noted. Not all past conflicts centered primarily (or at all) around religious views.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #375 on: November 22, 2011, 05:27:06 PM »
...Why is it so difficult to understand and accept that the Maker of the moral rule may not be bound to it in the same fashion as you and I? If, when you were 8 years old, one of your parents told you that arguing with adults was ‘wrong’ but then five minutes later you observed that same parent having an argument with another adult, would you pass judgment on your parent for not practicing what they preach? Of course not. The parent possesses the authority to set a boundary that they themselves are not bound by...

I disagree with this. There's a difference between an argument and a discussion about differences. I think if adults would stick with the rules they give to children, perhaps this would be a kinder, gentler, more enlightened world. There's a book entitled All I Really Need To Know I Learned In Kindergarten. I'm not sure that any double standard between adult and children's behavior isn't a false dichotomy. I certainly feel that way about your opinions about god. You're accepting what, to any reasoned person, is unacceptable behavior. I'm of the firm opinion that beings in power should be held to a higher standard. Kings, queens, emperors, popes, parents ... all should set an example for their "underlings". I don't see why a god should be any different.

To be fair to BS, I can see where he's coming from with his/her argument. It seems like what BS is saying is that the God/human dynamic is unlike the parent/child or peer to peer dynamic and more comparible to a human/parasite relationship where the parasite needs the human to life, move, and have its being and the human is benevolent if it allows it and is not malevolent if it destroys the parasite. To God, man apparently is a parasite that is infinitely below Him in His eyes much the same way a flea, lice, a tick, or a misquito is below one of us. The only way we are worthy of life is if we submit to God's requirements, otherwise we serve Him no purpose and are but parasites that must be destroyed. Our destruction or clemancy is ultimately then not a reflection on the charactor of God as we are so far below Him that what He does to us is ultimately inconsequential as it pertains to His charactor unless He decides to create Parasite Paradise where we can live in peace and have the sustanance we need forever without having to worry about being killed or threatened ever again by an unwelcoming host.
So, God can piss on the ant hill, throw lighter fluid on it and set it on fire, and still be considered as good because after all, we are just parasites.

You took it to a rather unnecessary extreme but I do think you're catching on.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #376 on: November 22, 2011, 05:28:25 PM »


You are missing the point behind the point. Making claims that evolution explains where our morality was born is speculative at best. Since when is anything you would assert to be true based on speculation rather than on the results of a properly conducted scientific investigation? 


Show that it's only speculation. We have a lot evidence that shows you're wrong. If you say it's all just speculation, why do you consistently fail to show it? Instead all you make are a couple sentences stating an opinion over and over again and addressing nothing.

You took it to a rather unnecessary extreme but I do think you're catching on.

Maybe one day you'll provide some justification for your position. Or at the very least respond to the flaws in it.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.