Author Topic: Most True Christians Are Sadists  (Read 12130 times)

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Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #290 on: November 21, 2011, 12:22:03 AM »

That's it? That's your response? You have made no argument whatsoever. You picked out a spelling error??!!!! WTH ??

This is a GREAT example of the hideous double standard that is so often preached but not practiced around here. Amazing. And YOU accuse me of dodging??!!! Do you know how severely I would get railed for posting a response that did not include direct refutations to specific claims?

I call foul. That's stonewalling if I've ever seen it. Unbelievable !!!

WOW   :laugh:

BS, if you only did something like that occasionally you wouldn't get railed for it. You get railed for it because you do it constantly. Remember the thread that you yourself just linked? Cause I just went through half of it (good times). Do you want to go back and look through all of the numerous times that people had nail your feet to the ground to get a solid answer. That was back when everyone was being easy on you and giving you a lot of leeway (Jetson even expressed his amazement at how much everyone was letting you get away with that thread). You've had the same complaints and the same admonishments made since the beginning and you don't ever even try to display better behaviour.

Like I said, don't try to play the martyr, it's an internet forum and we have a long record of your past posts that don't provoke sympathy.

I think I had indicated earlier that I was not going to be participating in conversations with you for the reason stated. You are wasting your time if you think I am going to change my mind. I have not even been reading any of your posts and only accidentally started reading this one before I checked to see who had posted it. Obviously, I cannot stop you from posting but, for the record, you have been advised that I will not be responding so if you choose to keep trying to initiate something with me, again, you are wasting your time. Just so it's clear to you.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #291 on: November 21, 2011, 12:27:16 AM »
I did not just point out a spelling error; I pointed out how you were begging the question.

You did not even establish your position with actual evidence, BS. You simply assumed that "God is perfect morality." You used circular reasoning and quoted some Bible verses. You made baseless claims such as this one:

Quote
I deny any notion that God could or would put anyone in a situation where they must choose between two "rights" that results in a "wrong."

You are yet another theist who refuses acknowledge that his "argument" is flawed.

If you want to whine about me asking you for evidence, go right ahead. Know that I have every right to ask for evidence, because you are the one making positive claims regarding God and morality.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #292 on: November 21, 2011, 12:31:59 AM »
You are yet another theist who refuses acknowledge that his "argument" is flawed.

If you want to whine about me asking you for evidence, go right ahead. Know that I have every right to ask for evidence, because you are the one making positive claims regarding God and morality.

You are yet another theist atheist who refuses acknowledge that his her "argument" is flawed.

Logic and rational thought are the evidence. What exactly are you looking for....a science experiment that proves something?

Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #293 on: November 21, 2011, 12:34:55 AM »

I think I had indicated earlier that I was not going to be participating in conversations with you for the reason stated. You are wasting your time if you think I am going to change my mind. I have not even been reading any of your posts and only accidentally started reading this one before I checked to see who had posted it. Obviously, I cannot stop you from posting but, for the record, you have been advised that I will not be responding so if you choose to keep trying to initiate something with me, again, you are wasting your time. Just so it's clear to you.

Yes, yes, yes, I heard it all before. Translation-you're a whiny little bitch.

However I can still point out all of the flaws in your arguments for the record, and despite what you might think it's not only because of my utter disdain for you that I do so. Ignore them or don't. The flaws are still there for people to see. Your ignoring them doesn't change anything.

Case in point.

So typical. I gave you a link to a conversation that I had regarding morality.

You were asked to provde evidence. Nothing in that thread proved anything because all of your arguments were from your own ideas. You proved nothing, remember, I was there. You also did not provide any reasoning in the thread why morality means there must be a god.

Are you hear just to butt heads or do you actually have a position that would refute the position I laid out in that thread?

Give her a position to refute then. Not a bunch of words that don't prove anything and show that you don't even use the terms that you use (such as your repeated failed attempts to understand what objective meant).

You don't and now you're getting frustrated so you rush to the "where is the evidence that your God exists?"

You realize you're trying to criticize her for doing the exact thing I've been accusing you of for the last two days right?

You are yet another theist atheist who refuses acknowledge that his her "argument" is flawed.

How is it flawed? You never seem to really get around to this part, do you?


Logic and rational thought are the evidence. What exactly are you looking for....a science experiment that proves something?


How do they prove god? By that standard I can say lightening and thunder prove Thor.
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Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #294 on: November 21, 2011, 12:35:33 AM »
Logic and rational thought are the evidence. What exactly are you looking for....a science experiment that proves something?

This is a cop-out. You don't have evidence. What logic would prove that your God exists?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #295 on: November 21, 2011, 12:42:17 AM »
Logic and rational thought are the evidence. What exactly are you looking for....a science experiment that proves something?

This is a cop-out. You don't have evidence. What logic would prove that your God exists?

Look, you asked for evidence with regards to my claim that objective morality makes a good argument for God. I gave you a place to start which you STILL have not countered. Now you want to move right back to "prove God exists?" You are stonewalling...plain and simple. Now please offer something that relates to the link or just say you don't want to. I would rather you did that than continue to stonewall.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #296 on: November 21, 2011, 12:45:44 AM »
BS, you are lying, plain and simple. I am not stonewalling. You did not even support your argument with evidence, therefore it does not hold up. At least give me some actual evidence if you want me to refute your claims. Otherwise, your claims are nonsense. Just verbal diarrhea that does not deserve my attention.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #297 on: November 21, 2011, 12:50:05 AM »
BS, you are lying, plain and simple. I am not stonewalling. You did not even support your argument with evidence, therefore it does not hold up. At least give me some actual evidence if you want me to refute your claims. Otherwise, your claims are nonsense. Just verbal diarrhea that does not deserve my attention.

Yep, here come the "you are lying" accusations....another very predictable deflection. You're not very original, are you?

Are you saying that a logical, rational argument does not constitute a form of evidence for an argument? If so, then please tell me what, according to your rules, would suffice. Please answer this so I know what to attempt to provide you with.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #298 on: November 21, 2011, 12:53:06 AM »
You know it occurs to me that BS could have saved a lot of his time if he just typed out his argument now. Instead of insisting that she read through all of those pages.

Are you saying that a logical, rational argument does not constitute a form of evidence for an argument? If so, then please tell me what, according to your rules, would suffice. Please answer this so I know what to attempt to provide you with.

I just have one quick question, BS.

WHAT LOGICAL ARGUMENT,WHERE?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #299 on: November 21, 2011, 12:53:24 AM »
BS, the problem is that you did not form a truly logical argument. You gave no evidence; you made baseless claims. I have been asking over and over again for some actual evidence. Where is it, BS?

It seems like all you want to do is pick a fight and and accuse me of things that are completely untrue.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #300 on: November 21, 2011, 12:56:19 AM »

I just have one quick question, BS.

WHAT LOGICAL ARGUMENT,WHERE?

Exactly!  :)

BS, you are totally lying about even having a logical argument. You made baseless claims.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #301 on: November 21, 2011, 12:58:45 AM »
BS, the problem is that you did not form a truly logical argument. You gave no evidence; you made baseless claims. I have been asking over and over again for some actual evidence. Where is it, BS?

If logic and reason do not work for you, what will ? I think this is the third time I have asked that you tell me what type of evidence you are seeking to make an argument for God's objective morality . If you do not answer that then this conversation is over because I am not going to *guess* what will satisfy you.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #302 on: November 21, 2011, 01:00:31 AM »

If logic and reason do not work for you, what will ?

Logica and reason will work fine. When you're ready to start using it let me know.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #303 on: November 21, 2011, 01:04:00 AM »
BS, you should not have to ask what type of evidence. I want logic, which you have yet to truly use to prove God exists and to prove his objective morality. I want scientific evidence. Shouldn't that be obvious? If you actually have evidence, why would you need to ask me what type?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 01:08:25 AM by curiousgirl »
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #304 on: November 21, 2011, 01:40:27 AM »
Would you consider yourself a moral relativist? Do you believe in absolute morality?  Is it your position that there is a single, absolute, and "true" moral standard?

I'll play.

I don't think of Myself as a moral relativist, although I do see a lot of grey zones in morality.  At the same time, I do not think there is such a thing as absolute morality, or a single, absolute and "true" moral standard.

Furthermore, I definitely do not believe there is such a thing as objective morality.  Even morality handed down by divine fiat would be subjective, as it would be contingent upon a god's subjective view of right and wrong.

However, what I see in the world around Me is varying degrees of suffering depending on what is or is not allowed in a given culture.  I'm inclined to look favourably upon social contracts that minimize suffering, not just for the alpha males but for everyone in the group.

I also think that morality is inevitable, as I see a clear survival bias in favour of what we think of as moral behaviour.  Groups that treat their members badly simply don't do as well as groups that strive for fairness and avoidance of harm, and over the generations the morally advanced cultures outperform the morally immature ones.
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Offline fishjie

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #305 on: November 21, 2011, 02:36:30 AM »
the bible god is immoral

therefore morality existing is not evidence of bible god existing.

guy turns women into salt pillars, orders genocide on tribes, genocides the entire human race, kills babies, and so on and so forth.    being the omnipotent guy he was, he could have easily avoided this by not creating satan in the first place.   epic fail.     

Offline Klokinator

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #306 on: November 21, 2011, 06:49:36 AM »
Alz, I think begging the question is what BS continues to do. I saw no evidence in any of his posts. This quote from BS regarding God's authority pretty much sums it up:

Quote
I don't declare, He does. I simply believe it.

That says it all, ladies and gentlemen. He simply believes what he thinks God says.
 
Alz, I thought it was pretty ironic that BS said this to you, since he spelled "gnat" incorrectly:

Quote
I am starting to think that you have the IQ of a nat.

WOW... :laugh:

That's it? That's your response? You have made no argument whatsoever. You picked out a spelling error??!!!! WTH ??

This is a GREAT example of the hideous double standard that is so often preached but not practiced around here. Amazing. And YOU accuse me of dodging??!!! Do you know how severely I would get railed for posting a response that did not include direct refutations to specific claims?

I call foul. That's stonewalling if I've ever seen it. Unbelievable !!!

WOW   :laugh:
Perhaps because you have not once posted anything with any reasonable amount of effort put into it that attempts to explain your arguments in a clear logical way.

OMG LULZ BTW HAHA UR SO STUPID 4 NOT UNDERSTANDING THE SECRET MESSAGE IN MY POST HAW HAW HAW

I'm shocked you even know the meaning of a big 3 syllable word like "stonewalling" in the first place.

Offline jetson

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #307 on: November 21, 2011, 08:34:02 AM »
Logic and rational thought are the evidence. What exactly are you looking for....a science experiment that proves something?

This is a cop-out. You don't have evidence. What logic would prove that your God exists?

Look, you asked for evidence with regards to my claim that objective morality makes a good argument for God. I gave you a place to start which you STILL have not countered. Now you want to move right back to "prove God exists?" You are stonewalling...plain and simple. Now please offer something that relates to the link or just say you don't want to. I would rather you did that than continue to stonewall.

BibleStudent,

You have been around long enough to know that we will not tolerate repeated stonewalling and special pleading.  And I know you are fully aware that what the atheist is looking for is natural evidence of an existing god.  If you cannot provide that evidence, then simply say you cannot, so we can move on.

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #308 on: November 21, 2011, 08:42:20 AM »
Would you consider yourself a moral relativist? Do you believe in absolute morality?  Is it your position that there is a single, absolute, and "true" moral standard?

Err... It's almost impossible to judge which booby-trapped fallacy to answer first, so I'll answer then as I see fit, without trying to anticipate your next fallacious move.

We have apparently defined morality as something that makes society perform better. Any act which apparently makes society perform better (in that culture's opinion), is usually considered to be "moral", whether it actually makes society perform better, or not. Child sacrifice is sometimes considered moral, (cf Judaism) if it is thought to benefit society. Soldiers at war (nearly) always consider themselves to be moral, and sacrificing for their tribe, no matter what barbarity they commit (cf Judaism).

Execution of murderers is thought to help society, but some do not agree. Some moral quandries often start "Would you sacrifice 10 people to save 100", and people often have a great deal of difficulty answering, because they are torn between an idealised absolute "morality" for which they have no real basis, and the tribal survival imperative from which the morals were actually derived.

The constraint for deriving what we consider to be morality, is that we are playing the game of life. In order for the tribe and species to gain ground against another, it must conserve itself, but leave room to attack another tribe, or species. You will notice that Christian morality leaves room to kill as many animals and species as we like, and Christians have no problems going to war to kill other tribes off, and there is no prohibition on slaves or torture.

Your question is based on a fallacy, because morality is both absolute and relative. In order for a species and tribe to survive, it's necessary to have an absolute order: "Thous shalt not kill, unless it's people the tribe doesn't like, or wants to get rid of, or animals". Disposing of criminals and other problems, tends to help with tribal evolution, since it eliminates schizophrenia and depression from the gene pool. We can't go around killing each other willy nilly, or the city will look like the set from Evil Dead, within 2 days. Then the neighbouring tribe, who had the "no kill" rule, will replace us.

Those on Easter Island could have done with another moral law: to not cut palm trees down. That is a moral rule that they desperately needed, but obviously could not agree on.

Yes, I'm a moral relativist, if it means that I do not abhore those who worship on a Tuesday. *shudder*. Yes, I'm a moral relativist on the sex before marriage issue, or any other Christian crap.

Moral cross-cultural "absolutes"[1] are derived from life's demands. If you consider that God created life, then you could loosely say that God created morality, but only indirectly, by creating the implicit rules of life[2].

Nobody is actually in contact with God, so apparent cross cultural absolutes must be derived from common-sense, after playing the game of life. Anything which appears "relative" is because some cultures have a different perception on what fine tuning must be done. This is reflected in abortion and torture.

Now, it is not up to you to fault the above part of my argument. It's up to you to demonstrate that morality cannot be derived intellectually.

I'm simply arguing that morals can be constructed by tribes who survive, and tribes who survive will tend to use the same method, by convergent evolution. You have to demonstrate that what you perceive to be a cross cultural absolutes cannot be derived by common sense or survival imperatives. You also have to demonstrate that it can't be done fallaciously, as well. What I mean by that, is that there is no particular reason why we should bother at all. Christianity says 99% of us are going to hell, so it should be moral to kill all of man, but we don't, for some reason. Obviously, our morals construct can be derived fallaciously as well. Why do animals bother? Something pushes them on, illogically.

If that's all too hard for you, then explain to me why you think it's bad to wake up in the morning and go out and kill people and eat them. If you actually can explain this to me, then congratulations, you have a cerebral cortex. If you can't, then the morality must come from God.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #309 on: November 21, 2011, 08:51:52 AM »

So typical. I gave you a link to a conversation that I had regarding morality. You apparently go read it and come back with a spelling error and nothing else. Are you hear just to butt heads or do you actually have a position that would refute the position I laid out in that thread? You don't and now you're getting frustrated so you rush to the "where is the evidence that your God exists?" default deflection. It's getting old, tiring...and so predictable. I gave you a place to start and now you are conveniently using a non-existent standard that you are simply making in order to make it appear as though I failed to respond to your request. So, who's playing the victim?

Yes, and morality has been given other sources, such as culture, and even genetic tribe loyalty(i.e. the entire book The Selfish Gene) so there are two explanations for morality out there:

One: it came from a magic invisible super being. Your version.

Two: We show how it can come reasonably come from naturalistic sources.

Think of why you don't think lightening comes from Zeus, and you will see why we do not accept your argument that morality comes from the Judeo-Christian model of a god.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #310 on: November 21, 2011, 08:54:52 AM »

The critiques of this in the case for God not being equal to a teapot are just a matter of special pleading, and appeal to emotion.

Among several others, two of the stronger arguments that serve as evidence are the arguments for the existence of 'logic' and 'morality.' Arguments for both having come from God serve as strong evidence for the existence of God. The Bible is also a strong evidence as are the mathematical probabilities in conjunction with the biological complexities of life and the universe. By themselves, they most often form a 'weak' argument but when combined the argument becomes strong.


So you are going with special pleading, with an argument of irreducible complexity. Plus a touch of appeal to antiquity.

Still does not seperate it from the teapot
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 08:56:40 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #311 on: November 21, 2011, 09:25:55 AM »
Logic and rational thought are the evidence. What exactly are you looking for....a science experiment that proves something?
Logic and rationality are not evidence.  They are thought processes that use[1] evidence.  That is the point that you are missing and that you can't escape.

Logic depends on its premise.  If the premise is false, then no matter how good the logic is, it is false as well.  To put that another way, garbage in, garbage out, or GIGO.  Religious belief is like a recursive logical process which uses its output as its input to call itself.  No matter how many times you go through the process, it will continue to run endlessly.

Among several others, two of the stronger arguments that serve as evidence are the arguments for the existence of 'logic' and 'morality.' Arguments for both having come from God serve as strong evidence for the existence of God. The Bible is also a strong evidence as are the mathematical probabilities in conjunction with the biological complexities of life and the universe. By themselves, they most often form a 'weak' argument but when combined the argument becomes strong.
Logical arguments do not serve as evidence for anything in their own right (per my statement above, an argument that is not based on evidence cannot be used as evidence), so your statement that arguments for logic and morality having come from God serve as evidence for the existence of God is invalid, because it is a circular (recursive) argument.

The Bible is no more valid in its own right than any religious holy book.  If it is valid, they all are; if they are not valid, then the Bible is not valid either.  And in any case, the Bible (as well as other religious holy books) depends on speculative ideas that are not supported by evidence.  Therefore, it is invalid.

Mathematical probabilities do not themselves show anything, because probability is one of those things that is easy to get wrong, unless you can accurately assess all the factors involved.  We cannot, so any argument for God's existence that hinges on mathematical probability is invalid.

The complexities of life and the universe themselves do not prove anything.  They are simply that, complexities.  The fact that something is complex does not mean that it could not have come about through a natural process.  So this is null on its own.

In other words, the arguments you cited are all invalid, except for the one about complexity, which is itself null.  Rebut or recant, please.
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Online rev45

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #312 on: November 21, 2011, 10:15:07 AM »
I feel like I'm watching a magician who's about to do a really really awesome trick but he won't shut up and do it. 
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Offline C

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #313 on: November 21, 2011, 10:47:57 AM »
I feel like I'm watching a magician who's about to do a really really awesome trick but he won't shut up and do it.

A horrible, unending loop of the buildup to the act in a Penn & Teller's magic show.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #314 on: November 21, 2011, 10:52:59 AM »
I feel like I'm watching a magician who's about to do a really really awesome trick but he won't shut up and do it.

A horrible, unending loop of the buildup to the act in a Penn & Teller's magic show.

Please refrain from associating BS to Penn and Teller. It does them a great disservice.

"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline Historicity

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #315 on: November 21, 2011, 11:01:05 AM »
I feel like I'm watching a magician who's about to do a really really awesome trick but he won't shut up and do it.

LOL.

I thought that when he said that logic was a strong argument for the existence of God he was indulging in the Presuppositionalist argument that God Created Logic. 

Quote
(T)he only proof for the existence of God is that without God you couldn't prove anything.
----Cornelius Van Til
Quote
Rather, the claim is even stronger: that the biblical framework is the only one that provides the foundation for science, voluntary will, logic and morality.
---Jonathon Sarfatl

But, as you said, Rev45, we are waiting.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #316 on: November 21, 2011, 11:14:13 AM »
I feel like I'm watching a magician who's about to do a really really awesome trick but he won't shut up and do it.
I feel like I'm watching a magician who's about to do a really really awesome trick but he won't shut up and do it.

LOL.

I thought that when he said that logic was a strong argument for the existence of God he was indulging in the Presuppositionalist argument that God Created Logic. 

Quote
(T)he only proof for the existence of God is that without God you couldn't prove anything.
----Cornelius Van Til
Quote
Rather, the claim is even stronger: that the biblical framework is the only one that provides the foundation for science, voluntary will, logic and morality.
---Jonathon Sarfatl

But, as you said, Rev45, we are waiting.


I really do think he was engaging in the presuppositionalist nonsense.

It isn't so much as waiting for a magician, as listening to a Junior High School boy extolling how can "Kick you ass up and down the street" at length while you wait for him to actually do anything physical, which you know will never come.



An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline C

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #317 on: November 21, 2011, 11:21:13 AM »
I feel like I'm watching a magician who's about to do a really really awesome trick but he won't shut up and do it.

A horrible, unending loop of the buildup to the act in a Penn & Teller's magic show.

Please refrain from associating BS to Penn and Teller. It does them a great disservice.

Referring to the previous quote; not associating P&T with BS at all.

Anyway, BS has already admitted twice in the thread that he has no evidence to offer. So, why is this exactly continuing?
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #318 on: November 21, 2011, 11:58:11 AM »

Anyway, BS has already admitted twice in the thread that he has no evidence to offer. So, why is this exactly continuing?

Amusement mostly. Yes, BS did previously say that he has no evidence. However now he's claiming to have plenty (he didn't bother to address this obvious inconsistency when CG pointed it out to him).

Granted, we all know he's lying and that he doesn't (I'm honestly pretty sure he has no idea of what "evidence" even entails), but it's amusing to watch him hop around ranting about how everyone else is using double-standards, and being mean to him, and how he's so obviously right, etc., etc., etc.

The thing with theists like BS is that all you really can do is mock them. He has a 900 post history which shows that he doesn't listen to anything you say. He does the same stupid things over and over after being told by fifty different people why they're stupid. What else can you actually do?

Also people like him set a good example of some of the worst things that theism can do to people. In BS's case this especially applies when you talk about morals. Like his admittance that he thinks turning a Jewish family over to the Nazis to refrain from lying was a better moral decision than lying to protect them. Or the fact that he makes it clear that he feels god could order him to kill/rape/mutilate/steal from/etc. at anytime and he would accept it without even wondering the reason.

He helps us make our case nearly everytime he posts.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
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