Stating that God’s plan had “major flaws” is conjecture. It’s an opinion that you cannot support with evidence. Therefore, you did not ‘make a point’ nor could you possibly do so …..you merely stated what your impression is. Are you able to provide the evidence that would validate your ‘opinion.’
No it is not conjecture. You made a claim that gods plan was to get rid of the evil people. I pointed out that the people he "saved", the people you said were non-evil, went right ahead and kept on doing evil.
Hence, the plan did not work
. Maybe you use different definitions than I do, however I would consider a plan that wipes out all life on earth to eliminate evil people whcih fails to eliminate all of the evil people, seriously flawed.
But a fair attempt at a dodge anyways, I'm forced to admit.
Again, this is conjecture on your part since you could not possibly know or demonstrate whether God administered any form of pain and suffering to these infants. You assume that they died a horrible death by drowning but if you want to adhere to the strict guidelines of the forum then I am going to have ask you to prove your so-called ‘point.’
I did prove it already. It's called a simple logical progression.
There were babies on Earth. > Babies are living things. >God drowned all living things except eight humans in a flood. > Ergo,god drowned the babies.
It's sad that I actually had to explain that to you.
The rest is a Strawman since I didn't actually claim that they died a "horrible death". You were the one who felt the need to include that.
You yourself have admitted that god killed everyone except eight people in a flood, so this is actually a rather stupid contention on your part. You also dodge the point about how the babies could be considered evil.
I give it a 3.5 on the dodge-o-meter. Not your best stuff.
Continued conjecture since you cannot possibly demonstrate that God created that which you find fault with. This is simply your opinion with no basis in fact. Do you have proof you can share with us that will demonstrate the validity of your opinion.
Conjecture.....you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Of course it can be demonstrated. First off, according to your beliefs god created all things and is omnipotent. So by your own admission he created what I find fault in.
But let's go beyond that. Humans are created by god. He decided on our nature, put us in the garden with the talking snake, etc. When we ate from the tree, it was god himself who placed the curse of original sin (you have read the bible right, BibleStudent?
) upon us. He made a deliberate choice to place this upon us. Then he created the convoluted path to salvation through faith, in order to save us from the punishment that he himself inflicted on us.
So to make it simple (in deference to you).
God created us. God gave us our mental faculties. God placed us in the garden with the snake in front of the big tree he did not want us to eat from. God chose to inflict us with original sin. God created a place of punishment for those of us who have the infliction of sin. God created a plan to "save" us, from the punishment and infliction that we're both created by him (as opposed to you know, just outright forgiving the sin).
So it looks like I can demonstrate such a thing. Unless you have an actual intelligent argument to make against the point. Instead of just trying to dismiss it as "conjecture".
That's the problem with an omnipotent creator being. Everything ultimately becomes his fault.
Yes, I know the drill all too well and as should be seeing by now, you do not practice what you preach.
Not a response. How did those not make a point? How were they incoherent or not understandable? I just showed how they made valid points (again), do you have an actual argument that invalidates them or not?
What we're seeing, BS, is that my assessments of you remain embarrassingly accurate.
No, it’s not a point at all. It is additional conjecture that presupposes God is somehow bound to adhere to a system of belief that you have created. Furthermore, it presupposes that God sees moments and events in history in the same manner you and I do. Can you demonstrate that God exists in a state that makes Him subject to your moral judicial system? Can you demonstrate that the outcome of any of His decisions, commands, or actions would have had a more favorable result if they had been carried out according to your infinite wisdom?
No, again it is not a conjecture. This isn't even a real response to what I said.
I said that by how humans define morality, god commits actions that could only be carried out by an absolute monster. However you excuse these actions because you "trust" in him that they are done for a good cause. However your trust is given only because he has told you that he is the good guy. A claim which has absolutely no reason to be believed.
I did not say that god was bound to adhere to any particular belif system. I did not say anything about how god sees things. I did not say that he was in anyway subject to human morals. Nor did I claim any infinite wisdom, or that his actions might not actually yield a greater good in the long run. Your entire rant is a pathetic Strawman that doesn't respond in anyway to what was said.
Like I said, BS, I make points all the time. You just choose to ignore them.
This is a broad and sweeping judgment based only on an impression you have. It clearly implies that we lack ANY sympathy whatsoever or any desire to be kind, forgiving, merciful. Therefore, kindly provide proof that God and Biblestudent do not care about right or wrong or others suffering and that we enjoy the suffering of others. You are going to have to come up with a lot more than that Nazi story (that you have repeatedly dug up like an old rag) if you want to paint an accurate picture of me and God. This should be interesting because you do not even know me nor could you possibly be aware of the extent of care, sympathy, and assistance I give on a daily basis.
You've proven it with your own words several times so far.
In regards to right or wrong.
1)You have claimed that as god is our creator he has the right to do as he wants with his creations. At this point right or wrong become irrelevant.
2)You follow this god even though you possess no means of knowing whether he is good or evil. You follow simply because he has told you to and because he is powerful. The fact that you have no way of actually knowing his intentions does not matter to you. Again, this shows that you have no consideration for what is right or wrong. Or any moral considerations in general. If you did, it would be very important to whether you actually knew
what your god was doing was right, as opposed to being told it.
3) To quote you. "That is, if God has what you deem to be sadistic character traits, who am I to question it? Is it necessary for me to like, approve, and cherish everything He does in order to bow down to Him?"
"I simply trust that the Creator of our very existence is capable and fully empowered to do with us as He desires in order to fulfill His plan….and, yes, like it or not, ultimately we have no say in the matter."
"Suffice it to say that while I do not understand all that God has done or is presently doing in this world, I accept my place in HIS creation and concede to His power and might. I am in no position to judge that which CREATED ME nor do I claim to know a better way to fulfill His plan."
You outright state here that you do not care if god is good or evil. You bow to god regardless of his actions.
In regards to suffering.
1)God creates suffering on a massive scale to millions of people. This is the closest to any consideration that you shown such a thing so far.
"I do not find anything pleasant about any of those....nor would I condone or encourage any person to embrace them as "right."
However you follow the god who does these things and more. You would commit these acts of suffering if you genuinely thought he was asking them of you, would you not? How can you claim to care about the suffering of others, when you fully support one who causes/ has caused untold levels of it.
2)As an omnipotent being, there is literally no reason for there to ever need
to be suffering. Anything god wanted to do could easily be accomplished without it. So to cause suffering itself, must be a goal of your god. This is also something that you have no discernible problem with.
I could go on, but I've provided more than enough information to prove my point. You are, of course, free to rebut. Just try to actually make it intelligent.
You are not making a ‘point.’ You are using broad generalizations in an adolescent attempt to make it appear as though you are the superior human being.
This, in itself, is a broad generalization.
I will give you a “close but no cigar” on this one. Still, you have failed to demonstrate that your methodology is the only conceivable process.
I never claimed it was, so why would I need to demonstrate it? There may very well be other ones that work that we haven't thought of yet. So we start off with a Strawman. Good job, by the way.
What exactly do you use to gauge whether it represents the optimal and strategy in existence.
Again, did not say it was. Merely said that it worked, and implied that was more easily validated than the biblical method. So another Strawman.
You make accusations that I bend to God simply because he says I should but you are doing the exact same thing. You are bending to a methodology simply because it is the only one you know and, truth be told, could be based on faulty human thinking.
No. I am going with a methodology that has produced billions of tangible results.
BS, you did not respond to one thing that I actually said. You claimed that the methodology I used cannot be shown to work any better than your faith-based one. I provided many, many examples of how my methodolgy provides easily demonstrated benefits. Not only did you not even acknowledge or argue against those examples, you formed a Strawman that claimed I said that the logical method was the only possible method that could ever exist.
Does the existence of things such as your computer, car, tv, etc. all of which were created by science and it's method show that the scientific process works or does it not? That was what you were to respond to, BS, as that was the issue under discussion.
Then, if they are examples of it working, can you provide equal amounts of evidence that your methodolgy works?
If not, then clearly I was right. One can
validate the trustworthiness of my methodolgy far better than yours.
As I said, I make very good points. You just ignore them. As you did here.
Again, the larger portion of your posts are not making ‘points.’ They are ramblings filled with opinions and conjecture and rarely, if ever, supported by anything of substance or which constitutes a verifiable source.
So far you haven't shown this. You have yet to make an actual argument against anything I said. I mean aside from a fallacious one.
With regards to my visit to the ER which, for some strange reason you are glued to, my contentions to having been placed there are contained in the ER thread. Whether you disagree with them or not is irrelevant. Again, there is a difference in feeling about who was right and who was wrong and that’s that. I am not going to re-hash that entire episode with you all over again. If you find some comfort in continuing to beating it like a dead horse, then enjoy yourself !!
As I mentioned before, it was you who brought the ER up. You were the one who made the claim that it was unwarranted and without reason. I merely responded to the claim. If you didn't want to beat the dead horse, why did you pick up the stick?
Besides, in this instance it's relevant, since we are discussing your pattern of behaviour. You tried to portray the fact that you don't respond to some posts as simply negligence on your part. However your entire history on the forum shows that it isn't. Which is why the ER thread is being brought up, along with the old Evolution/Creationism thread that you ran away from last time.
Kindly provide proof that I have lied about anything.
I already did.
I have no problem whatsoever having a “conversation.” I welcome other people’s opinions and comments and observations….BUT…..you obviously do not understand the difference between a simple “conversation” and the more formal process of arguing something. You use both interchangeably when it suits you….providing conjecture and baseless claims at will all the while criticizing me for allegedly doing the same thing. You just don’t get it. You are as guilty of using a double standard as anyone I’ve encountered on this forum or anywhere else.
Feel free to prove this double standard at anytime. I'm still waiting.
I indicated that it “seems” to me as though you do. That word in that context has a certain meaning which qualifies my statement as lacking irrefutable proof. However, if you really want me to go back and list all of the vile insults and accusations you’ve made that led me to making this comment, I gladly will. Just let me know…..it’s a large list.
Allow me to clarify. I meant please prove that this the focus of my efforts.
Of course I insult you. As I said, you're scum. I don't deny that fact and fully stand by every derogatory thing that I've ever said about you. Including the ones that I'm likely to say in the future. However such a thing doesn't mean I don't still make valid arguments against the bile you spew. It also doesn't rule out the possibility of having a legitimate pointed discussion. I still can, and do, respond t everything you saw with considered arguments. I simply insult you as a bonus and because it helps me deal with the nausea.
However I would like you to prove that I focus the majority of my efforts on this.
Scum like me, eh? That’s nice…and very helpful in discussing the topic.
Start actually discussing the topic then. Make an intelligent argument and I won't have to find my own amusement. Nothing you have said so far has actually made a point in regards to what I have said. I need to amuse myself somehow.
Seriously,BS, make a point. Say something intelligent, at least do something to separate yourself from a clothes-wearing monkey.
And even more insults and unprovable accusations. As I stated above, , kindly provide proof that I do not care about right or wrong or others suffering and that we enjoy the suffering of others. You are going to have to come up with a lot more than that Nazi story (that you have repeatedly dug up like an old rag) if you want to paint an accurate picture of me. This should be interesting because you do not even know me nor could you possibly be aware of the extent of care, sympathy, and assistance I give on a daily basis.
No, but I'm aware of the care and sympathy that you demonstrate here.
And I proved my lying, dodging, hiding accusations long ago. I proved them with that big post I made with all of those quotes from the ER and Evolution threads, remember.
You, not surpringly dodged, lied, and hid from them.
This is an utterly inaccurate statement as I have demonstrated above. The vast majority of your so-called ‘points’ are nothing more than opinions.
Not in the least. However please feel free to actually prove this. Whenever you feel like getting around to it.