Author Topic: Most True Christians Are Sadists  (Read 14851 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #116 on: November 17, 2011, 10:23:54 PM »
You know, I sit here and wonder why any of what is being discussed matters anyway. In the non-theist belief system, this world is going to burn up someday and this all amounts to a bunch of nonsensical rantings and ravings. Seriously, what is the non-theist's motivation for challenging any belief system...whether it's Christian, Islam, Buudha, Wicca, etc etc?   

Because it is a systematic Dogma that is used as justification for real world pain and suffering in order to achieve completely false otherworldly benefits. Religion is worse than most Dogmas because it deals with unprovable absolutes and those that do not believe in those unprovable absolutes are treated as lesser human beings. In order to please an invisible intangible being that there is no verifiable evidence of contacting humanity, people have committed homicide, genocide, fratricide, infanticide, and a host of other things I consider as immoral.

In other words, I speak out against it because I believe that it does more harm than good. That isn't a fact, that is my opinion.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #117 on: November 17, 2011, 10:25:26 PM »
Yes, that pretty much sums it up. I trust that everything God has commanded or allowed was for the preservation and betterment of the human race over the entire course of time. He is the Creator, not just some politician in the sky trying to show off.

I think I would be more interested in determining whether I chose to believe He exists rather than picking apart what you perceive as questionable methods. Once you have made a decision that you are completely satisfied with, then you will either see things as He sees them or will continue to challenge his existence on the basis of what your mind deems to be the sum of all knowledge.

Again, though, this pretty much negates the idea that god cares about the least of us. It's rather more as though he has set up this galactic video game in which the ultimate measure of whether he "wins" is whether the earth is in some state of goodness by the time the game is over.

But for all that so many people want to claim we are in the "end times" and so on, it hardly seems that he has done what he had set out to do. At least not thus far. It's not even as though the majority of the earth's people actually believe in him, and this planet is not gonna last forever.

In the meantime, suffering runs rampant, and he doesn't lift an omnipotent finger to do anything about it.

Funny thing about apologetics...you can find answers to any specific question which actually sound pretty good, but as soon as you accept one line of thinking, it seems to punch holes in another.

What I think I hear you saying is that God lacks any goodness whatsoever. Is that correct? This is the impression I get sometimes is that the topic of some of these discussions is focused on God's alleged bad behavior. Do you see any goodness in God ?

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #118 on: November 17, 2011, 10:30:35 PM »
You know, I sit here and wonder why any of what is being discussed matters anyway. In the non-theist belief system, this world is going to burn up someday and this all amounts to a bunch of nonsensical rantings and ravings. Seriously, what is the non-theist's motivation for challenging any belief system...whether it's Christian, Islam, Buudha, Wicca, etc etc?   

Because it is a systematic Dogma that is used as justification for real world pain and suffering in order to achieve completely false otherworldly benefits. Religion is worse than most Dogmas because it deals with unprovable absolutes and those that do not believe in those unprovable absolutes are treated as lesser human beings. In order to please an invisible intangible being that there is no verifiable evidence of contacting humanity, people have committed homicide, genocide, fratricide, infanticide, and a host of other things I consider as immoral.

In other words, I speak out against it because I believe that it does more harm than good. That isn't a fact, that is my opinion.

Thank you for your answer. The question remains, though....in the end, what will it matter?....and, in the short term, how does it interfere with your life?

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #119 on: November 17, 2011, 10:30:48 PM »
Seriously, what do my beliefs do to you personally that hinders you from being able to fulfill goals and dreams and plans that you may have?

What do my beliefs do to hinder your deity and the goals, plans, and dreams it has?

Quote
Thank you for your answer. The question remains, though....in the end, what will it matter?....and, in the short term, how does it interfere with your life?

How do my beliefs hinder, in the end, your deity's life?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #120 on: November 17, 2011, 10:35:16 PM »
I made my point, you made yours. What else is there to say? If you have something in particular you would like me to comment on, just let me know. I did read your post and did not infer that you were seeking a response.
I don't write posts in order to admire my writing.  So let me put it this way.  If you really don't have a response to what I wrote, I won't press you on it.  But if you disagreed with me, or if you wanted clarification on something, or anything like that, then it doesn't do either you or me any good to respond with silence.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #121 on: November 17, 2011, 10:51:12 PM »
You know, I sit here and wonder why any of what is being discussed matters anyway. In the non-theist belief system, this world is going to burn up someday and this all amounts to a bunch of nonsensical rantings and ravings. Seriously, what is the non-theist's motivation for challenging any belief system...whether it's Christian, Islam, Buudha, Wicca, etc etc?   

Because it is a systematic Dogma that is used as justification for real world pain and suffering in order to achieve completely false otherworldly benefits. Religion is worse than most Dogmas because it deals with unprovable absolutes and those that do not believe in those unprovable absolutes are treated as lesser human beings. In order to please an invisible intangible being that there is no verifiable evidence of contacting humanity, people have committed homicide, genocide, fratricide, infanticide, and a host of other things I consider as immoral.

In other words, I speak out against it because I believe that it does more harm than good. That isn't a fact, that is my opinion.

Thank you for your answer. The question remains, though....in the end, what will it matter?....and, in the short term, how does it interfere with your life?
In the end, nothing matters. However, what I value matters to me now, and every day I live.


Lets start with that the justification for the US being at war is directly linked to people who destroyed the world trade center. Their actions have created additional debt for the US, longer lines in airports, security checks beyond whatever I had to previously deal with when presenting evidence in tax court, and whenever I go to the IRS building. I also end up dealing with a lot of the veterans of said war who have become mentally deranged because of it.

Religious members of the Black Muslims have treated me like scum because I am white...and it part of what their religious leader tell them to.

The deduction for religious donations is the second most abused part of the tax code, at the individual level, increasing the burden on the rest of us.

Jahovah's Witness have interrupted sleep, a meal, and on one occasion, a shower.

Religious nonsense  has led to siphoning off resources at work, because people are permitted, even encouraged to work at a nearby religious institution during work hours, in part because it makes the bosses look good during the election .

Lets not forget how much more advanced science could be, making our current life less burdensome, were it not for religious proscription against certain lines of research long before I was born.

People have targeted me for verbal abuse because of their religious convictions.

There is the fact that religiosity is often used to propel people into power who are otherwise unqualified to be an elected leader, this incompetence in the decision making process has surely cost the United States something. Some measure of greatness in the scientific, cultural, or economic realms.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #122 on: November 17, 2011, 10:51:38 PM »
Okay. Fair enough. Can you give me an example demonstrating how organized religion hinders your ability to live a fulfilling life?

In the united states, right now, this very minute, religious persons are attempting to repeal Roe vs. Wade. They're trying to prevent people from accessing birth control. They're trying to change our LAWS in ways that will affect women. I'm past any potential child-bearing days, but I still CARE about women's freedom. I CARE about the fact that when I was young women were still dying in back alleys from coat hanger abortions. I still CARE about the fact that women want access to birth control to try to PREVENT the need for abortion, or having a child that they can't afford to feed or clothe. It ANGERS me that religious persons believe it's ok to limit everyone else's freedom to match their thousands-of-years-old concepts of right and wrong. Conservative christians have gained such a foothold in our government here in the states that nothing can get done. It's a frightening time for those of us who've fought for freedom. If the clock gets turned back too far, my "sisters" will not have the advantages that I've been fortunate to have. And that's not tolerable.
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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #123 on: November 17, 2011, 10:53:16 PM »
What I think I hear you saying is that God lacks any goodness whatsoever. Is that correct? This is the impression I get sometimes is that the topic of some of these discussions is focused on God's alleged bad behavior. Do you see any goodness in God ?
Not so much that, per se, as I just don't see consistency in the way he is portrayed. It's getting late, and I'm not up to composing a whole essay on this at the moment, but if I get the chance tomorrow I will try to put it into words.  Broadly, though, I just can't find the common denominator between a supposedly loving, merciful, omnicient and omnipotent god who wants nothing more than to see every soul attain salvation and to have a personal relationship with them and the vengeful tyrant who supposedly created an imperfect (ie. prone to following the minds they were given) race and punishing them for behaving in the way that comes naturally to them.

An omnimax god would simply not have created something so prone to inevitable failure, or would have put more effort into making sure his word wasn't so easily misinterpreted or ignored.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #124 on: November 17, 2011, 10:57:40 PM »
Seriously, what do my beliefs do to you personally that hinders you from being able to fulfill goals and dreams and plans that you may have?

What do my beliefs do to hinder your deity and the goals, plans, and dreams it has?

Quote
Thank you for your answer. The question remains, though....in the end, what will it matter?....and, in the short term, how does it interfere with your life?

How do my beliefs hinder, in the end, your deity's life?

Your beliefs do not hinder me in any way....at least not that I am aware of. Also, I do not know how your beliefs may or may not hinder God's existence.

I think you are missing the point, though. My question was based on the seemingly irrelevant motivation to advance a belief that, in the long term, leads to a red hot end (and I am not referring to Hell when I say that). What is it that keeps you restrained from doing whatever the heck you might feel like doing?

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #125 on: November 17, 2011, 10:59:04 PM »
I made my point, you made yours. What else is there to say? If you have something in particular you would like me to comment on, just let me know. I did read your post and did not infer that you were seeking a response.
I don't write posts in order to admire my writing.  So let me put it this way.  If you really don't have a response to what I wrote, I won't press you on it.  But if you disagreed with me, or if you wanted clarification on something, or anything like that, then it doesn't do either you or me any good to respond with silence.

Then I feel as though I owe you an apology....so, I apologize.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #126 on: November 17, 2011, 11:01:28 PM »
You know, I sit here and wonder why any of what is being discussed matters anyway. In the non-theist belief system, this world is going to burn up someday and this all amounts to a bunch of nonsensical rantings and ravings. Seriously, what is the non-theist's motivation for challenging any belief system...whether it's Christian, Islam, Buudha, Wicca, etc etc?   

Because it is a systematic Dogma that is used as justification for real world pain and suffering in order to achieve completely false otherworldly benefits. Religion is worse than most Dogmas because it deals with unprovable absolutes and those that do not believe in those unprovable absolutes are treated as lesser human beings. In order to please an invisible intangible being that there is no verifiable evidence of contacting humanity, people have committed homicide, genocide, fratricide, infanticide, and a host of other things I consider as immoral.

In other words, I speak out against it because I believe that it does more harm than good. That isn't a fact, that is my opinion.

Thank you for your answer. The question remains, though....in the end, what will it matter?....and, in the short term, how does it interfere with your life?
In the end, nothing matters. However, what I value matters to me now, and every day I live.


Lets start with that the justification for the US being at war is directly linked to people who destroyed the world trade center. Their actions have created additional debt for the US, longer lines in airports, security checks beyond whatever I had to previously deal with when presenting evidence in tax court, and whenever I go to the IRS building. I also end up dealing with a lot of the veterans of said war who have become mentally deranged because of it.

Religious members of the Black Muslims have treated me like scum because I am white...and it part of what their religious leader tell them to.

The deduction for religious donations is the second most abused part of the tax code, at the individual level, increasing the burden on the rest of us.

Jahovah's Witness have interrupted sleep, a meal, and on one occasion, a shower.

Religious nonsense  has led to siphoning off resources at work, because people are permitted, even encouraged to work at a nearby religious institution during work hours, in part because it makes the bosses look good during the election .

Lets not forget how much more advanced science could be, making our current life less burdensome, were it not for religious proscription against certain lines of research long before I was born.

People have targeted me for verbal abuse because of their religious convictions.

There is the fact that religiosity is often used to propel people into power who are otherwise unqualified to be an elected leader, this incompetence in the decision making process has surely cost the United States something. Some measure of greatness in the scientific, cultural, or economic realms.

Is it fair to say, then, that you find no good whatsoever in any religious belief? If so, do you still feel the negatives outweigh the positives?

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #127 on: November 17, 2011, 11:09:08 PM »
What I think I hear you saying is that God lacks any goodness whatsoever. Is that correct? This is the impression I get sometimes is that the topic of some of these discussions is focused on God's alleged bad behavior. Do you see any goodness in God ?
Not so much that, per se, as I just don't see consistency in the way he is portrayed. It's getting late, and I'm not up to composing a whole essay on this at the moment, but if I get the chance tomorrow I will try to put it into words.  Broadly, though, I just can't find the common denominator between a supposedly loving, merciful, omnicient and omnipotent god who wants nothing more than to see every soul attain salvation and to have a personal relationship with them and the vengeful tyrant who supposedly created an imperfect (ie. prone to following the minds they were given) race and punishing them for behaving in the way that comes naturally to them.

An omnimax god would simply not have created something so prone to inevitable failure, or would have put more effort into making sure his word wasn't so easily misinterpreted or ignored.

Ponder this: is it possible that what you perceive as inconsistencies and confusion and cruelty are not really not as it seems? Perhaps there are legitimate 'big picture' motives behind some of what you perceive as an unexplainable or immoral act.

Offline freefromjesus

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #128 on: November 17, 2011, 11:21:52 PM »
What I think I hear you saying is that God lacks any goodness whatsoever. Is that correct? This is the impression I get sometimes is that the topic of some of these discussions is focused on God's alleged bad behavior. Do you see any goodness in God ?
Not so much that, per se, as I just don't see consistency in the way he is portrayed. It's getting late, and I'm not up to composing a whole essay on this at the moment, but if I get the chance tomorrow I will try to put it into words.  Broadly, though, I just can't find the common denominator between a supposedly loving, merciful, omnicient and omnipotent god who wants nothing more than to see every soul attain salvation and to have a personal relationship with them and the vengeful tyrant who supposedly created an imperfect (ie. prone to following the minds they were given) race and punishing them for behaving in the way that comes naturally to them.

An omnimax god would simply not have created something so prone to inevitable failure, or would have put more effort into making sure his word wasn't so easily misinterpreted or ignored.

Ponder this: is it possible that what you perceive as inconsistencies and confusion and cruelty are not really not as it seems? Perhaps there are legitimate 'big picture' motives behind some of what you perceive as an unexplainable or immoral act.

So BibleGod's ends justify His means? That's not normally considered a moral thing to do.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #129 on: November 17, 2011, 11:24:02 PM »


Is it fair to say, then, that you find no good whatsoever in any religious belief? If so, do you still feel the negatives outweigh the positives?

No I do know religious belief does make some people behave better than they would otherwise. Particularly those of such limited intellect not to get enlighten self interest nor sufficiently morally developed to have a sense of empathy.  That and the inspired art, I don't mean all religious art. Some of that simply stems from religion have the wealth at its disposal in order to have the ability to be a patron.  But those works that seem to have comes strictly from the passion of religion. I also think it served a a rudimentary manner of tribe cohesiveness in the distant past.

However, measured against what it has cost the human race in the past 5 centuries...overall it has been quite harmful by comparison. Absolutist Dogma like Religion, National Socialism, Communism, and so forth all leave a similar legacy of some measures of merit mixed with acts of unspeakable horror.

It really isn't religion that's the problem, it is holding a dogma that is held above evidence and above simple human kindness. Religion is just the largest and most dominant Dogma of that kind. Look what Religion did to "Mother Theresa" who used the resources and vast goodwill given to her to create buildings to increase suffering, because it thought it made those more like Jesus, rather than using them to attempt to reduce transmission of disease. She thought she was doing good, but she was increasing real world pain.

That is the legacy of religion.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline fishjie

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #130 on: November 17, 2011, 11:24:40 PM »
What I think I hear you saying is that God lacks any goodness whatsoever. Is that correct? This is the impression I get sometimes is that the topic of some of these discussions is focused on God's alleged bad behavior. Do you see any goodness in God ?
Not so much that, per se, as I just don't see consistency in the way he is portrayed. It's getting late, and I'm not up to composing a whole essay on this at the moment, but if I get the chance tomorrow I will try to put it into words.  Broadly, though, I just can't find the common denominator between a supposedly loving, merciful, omnicient and omnipotent god who wants nothing more than to see every soul attain salvation and to have a personal relationship with them and the vengeful tyrant who supposedly created an imperfect (ie. prone to following the minds they were given) race and punishing them for behaving in the way that comes naturally to them.

An omnimax god would simply not have created something so prone to inevitable failure, or would have put more effort into making sure his word wasn't so easily misinterpreted or ignored.

Ponder this: is it possible that what you perceive as inconsistencies and confusion and cruelty are not really not as it seems? Perhaps there are legitimate 'big picture' motives behind some of what you perceive as an unexplainable or immoral act.

Ponder this:   maybe the god in the bible is actually a jerk....   if it acts, walks and quacks like a duck well........

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #131 on: November 17, 2011, 11:28:49 PM »
Okay. Fair enough. Can you give me an example demonstrating how organized religion hinders your ability to live a fulfilling life?

In the united states, right now, this very minute, religious persons are attempting to repeal Roe vs. Wade. They're trying to prevent people from accessing birth control. They're trying to change our LAWS in ways that will affect women. I'm past any potential child-bearing days, but I still CARE about women's freedom. I CARE about the fact that when I was young women were still dying in back alleys from coat hanger abortions. I still CARE about the fact that women want access to birth control to try to PREVENT the need for abortion, or having a child that they can't afford to feed or clothe. It ANGERS me that religious persons believe it's ok to limit everyone else's freedom to match their thousands-of-years-old concepts of right and wrong. Conservative christians have gained such a foothold in our government here in the states that nothing can get done. It's a frightening time for those of us who've fought for freedom. If the clock gets turned back too far, my "sisters" will not have the advantages that I've been fortunate to have. And that's not tolerable.

The opposition to abortion is not exclusive to "religious" groups:

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html
http://www.atheistperspective.net/p/atheists-against-abortion-rights.html
http://www.l4l.org/
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/debates/secularist/abortion/roth1.html
http://www.plagal.org/
 

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #132 on: November 17, 2011, 11:33:44 PM »


Is it fair to say, then, that you find no good whatsoever in any religious belief? If so, do you still feel the negatives outweigh the positives?

No I do know religious belief does make some people behave better than they would otherwise. Particularly those of such limited intellect not to get enlighten self interest nor sufficiently morally developed to have a sense of empathy.  That and the inspired art, I don't mean all religious art. Some of that simply stems from religion have the wealth at its disposal in order to have the ability to be a patron.  But those works that seem to have comes strictly from the passion of religion. I also think it served a a rudimentary manner of tribe cohesiveness in the distant past.

However, measured against what it has cost the human race in the past 5 centuries...overall it has been quite harmful by comparison. Absolutist Dogma like Religion, National Socialism, Communism, and so forth all leave a similar legacy of some measures of merit mixed with acts of unspeakable horror.

It really isn't religion that's the problem, it is holding a dogma that is held above evidence and above simple human kindness. Religion is just the largest and most dominant Dogma of that kind. Look what Religion did to "Mother Theresa" who used the resources and vast goodwill given to her to create buildings to increase suffering, because it thought it made those more like Jesus, rather than using them to attempt to reduce transmission of disease. She thought she was doing good, but she was increasing real world pain.

That is the legacy of religion.

All that really says is that there are misguided extremists within various religions. You take "religion" out and don't you believe there would still be extremists views about any number of issues? We are all different and differing views will always be present.....whether religion is behind them or not.

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #133 on: November 17, 2011, 11:43:57 PM »
Ponder this: is it possible that what you perceive as inconsistencies and confusion and cruelty are not really not as it seems? Perhaps there are legitimate 'big picture' motives behind some of what you perceive as an unexplainable or immoral act.
You can't have it both ways, though...if Biblegod is all about the "big picture" and millions live lives of suffering and/or go on to everlasting torture in the course of whatever game he's staging, that's one thing. Certainly not a thing I'd particularly want to worship a deity for, but a "thing" nonetheless. I'll grant that it's possible to imagine an entity for whom there is a big picture beyond anything I can fathom . But then you don't get to also play the card that says he knows and cares for each and every one of us with a deep and abiding love. Wouldn't omnipotence do away with collateral damage?

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #134 on: November 17, 2011, 11:45:29 PM »
Thank you for your answer. The question remains, though....in the end, what will it matter?....

It won't.  In the end, nothing will matter.  That's just a fact.  But right now is not the end.  Right now, things matter.  And right now, religion is the single most dangerous thing threatening the survival of our species. I, personally, would like to afford future generations of people the best possible chance at living the type of life I live.     

People don't think of things in terms of "what does this matter in the end" because our minds don't work that way.  We don't spend time thinking like that. Nobody does.  As an atheist, I understand that my existence is ultimately worthless, but I spend a grand total of about 1 second of time per year dwelling on it.  It's not a pleasant one second, but it's there.  I'm a big boy.  I can deal with it.  But I think it takes far more courage to admit that as the truth than to create some sort of fairy tale happy ending that has me becoming some sort of cosmic cheerleader for eternity just to make that one second of time less difficult. 

What so many of you Christians seem to think is that we should be dwelling on the fact that our existence is ultimately meaningless.  Why?  Why dwell on what makes you feel bad?  Life is awesome.  I'm enjoying the hell out of it.  I know it's eventually going to end but I don't want it to.  It's a lot like getting on a roller coaster.  When you get on, do you spend the entire time thinking how awful it is that the ride is eventually going to end, or do you enjoy the ride while it's going? 

Ponder this: is it possible that what you perceive as inconsistencies and confusion and cruelty are not really not as it seems? Perhaps there are legitimate 'big picture' motives behind some of what you perceive as an unexplainable or immoral act.

Sure, but what you are asking us to do is abandon the normal way in which we decide whether or not we can consider someone or something 'good' or 'bad'.  Don't you see the problem with that?  It's completely bias. You want us to give the benefit of the doubt to something that really might not exist in the first place, and 'who's ways are not our ways', and all that bullshit.  If God's ways are not our ways, and if we can not trust our own reasoning, then what the hell are we doing?  We don't understand God and we aren't allowed to understand ourselves.... what the fuck are we supposed to do?  Just toss up our hands and stop using our brains altogether?  I'm sorry, but anyone who falls for that is a complete idiot.  The two words that keeps popping up in my mind when I read your writing are "cult" and "brainwashing".   

What you are saying is possible, but the other option (the one where God isn't real, and good / bad things happen as a result of natural circumstances) explains the whole thing much in a much more concise fashion, without having to turn our brains completely off, and without having to see everything that happens as being a good thing for the universe.  Can I ask you which questions about the things that happen in our universe are NOT answered well by that theory?   

I don't know how you can see things like cancer, AIDS and starvation as serving some sort of ultimate purpose.  That's pure stupidity at best, and horribly disgusting at worst.         
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #135 on: November 17, 2011, 11:45:49 PM »
So BibleGod's ends justify His means? That's not normally considered a moral thing to do.

Let's say there is a airplane crossing the Atlantic Ocean headed for a very heavily populated U.S. metropolis. The aircraft contains over 250 civilian passengers. There is indisputable evidence that a nuclear warhead with extraordinary destructive power is aboard the plane and is armed to detonate once the aircraft reaches an optimum altitude on its descent. The U.S. military has the capability to shoot down the aircraft before it reaches a position that would instantly incinerate millions of people. Do you shoot it down or not? 

Offline fishjie

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #136 on: November 17, 2011, 11:59:51 PM »
So BibleGod's ends justify His means? That's not normally considered a moral thing to do.

Let's say there is a airplane crossing the Atlantic Ocean headed for a very heavily populated U.S. metropolis. The aircraft contains over 250 civilian passengers. There is indisputable evidence that a nuclear warhead with extraordinary destructive power is aboard the plane and is armed to detonate once the aircraft reaches an optimum altitude on its descent. The U.S. military has the capability to shoot down the aircraft before it reaches a position that would instantly incinerate millions of people. Do you shoot it down or not?

i'm an omnipotent god  who is also omniscient.   with the snap of my fingers i completely disarm the warhead, cure AIDs, cancer, and world hunger, and let everyone live happily ever after.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #137 on: November 18, 2011, 12:07:08 AM »
I read this:
And right now, religion is the single most dangerous thing threatening the survival of our species.
   
and then this:
Life is awesome. I'm enjoying the hell out of it.  I know it's eventually going to end but I don't want it to.

and it doesn't sound to me like "religion" is getting in the way of you enjoying life.

Can I ask you which questions about the things that happen in our universe are NOT answered well by that theory? 
Go here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17764.0.html

and here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17764.0.html

and here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17265.0.html

You will have to scan through the threads to find my comments but maany of them explain my contention to the "theory."

I don't know how you can see things like cancer, AIDS and starvation as serving some sort of ultimate purpose.  That's pure stupidity at best, and horribly disgusting at worst.         
I don't like suffering anymore than anyone else. Yet, the Bible explains that it does have a purpose. 

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #138 on: November 18, 2011, 12:10:12 AM »
Let's say there is a airplane crossing the Atlantic Ocean headed for a very heavily populated U.S. metropolis. The aircraft contains over 250 civilian passengers. There is indisputable evidence that a nuclear warhead with extraordinary destructive power is aboard the plane and is armed to detonate once the aircraft reaches an optimum altitude on its descent. The U.S. military has the capability to shoot down the aircraft before it reaches a position that would instantly incinerate millions of people. Do you shoot it down or not?
The problem is, in Biblical examples (such as the flood), those numbers are basically reversed.  God was perfectly willing to kill thousands, perhaps millions, of people worldwide by drowning, in order to save eight or so total.  That would be the rough equivalent of evacuating the 250 people from the doomed airplane and getting them to safety, while letting the millions in the city die.

The ends very seldom justify the means.  Occasionally one has to let them, but it doesn't work if the ends are always used to justify the means, because then the means corrupt the ends.

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #139 on: November 18, 2011, 12:27:43 AM »
and it doesn't sound to me like "religion" is getting in the way of you enjoying life.

I said that religion is the greatest threat to the survival of humanity.  Don't you think the end of humanity would get in the way of me enjoying my humanity? 

Have you ever been the most hated minority in your home country Biblestudent?  Ever known what it was like to know that if people around you knew your true feelings that you might be ostracized? Thought less of?  That's how it is in the bible belt for an atheist.  I have to hide what I believe and treat people beliefs with respect that they do not deserve.  If you think I like that, then you're an idiot.

When I lived in Massachusetts, religion didn't get in the way because there were less of it up there.  Down here in the bible belt, religion is constantly in the way.  In fact, when I lived up north, I never even cared about the question of God.  It was only when I moved here that religion was everywhere; and that fact pushed me to discover what the truth was. 

You will have to scan through the threads to find my comments but maany of them explain my contention to the "theory."

No thanks.  I'm not sifting through threads to find your points of contention. Especially one about evolution and another with 29 pages of posts.   Evolution is true, get over it. The other one, if you'd like to make a point, feel free, because I have no idea what your point was in that one.  (didn't scan the pages).

I don't like suffering anymore than anyone else. Yet, the Bible explains that it does have a purpose.

Why don't you like suffering if ultimately suffering is a good thing?  How can you not like it?  Why don't you see cancer as a mighty gift from God?  Won't God be angry if you see suffering as a bad thing?  Should we fight suffering?  Should we not work to combat AIDS and cancer?  Shouldn't we be giving parties to the lucky few who contract bacterial meningitis?  Shouldn't the proper response to "My mother has Alzheimer's" become "Ohhhh, LUCKY!!"?   

Did you ever stop to think, BS, that the bible might just be wrong here?  That's possible isn't it?  It really might. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #140 on: November 18, 2011, 12:29:17 AM »
So BibleGod's ends justify His means? That's not normally considered a moral thing to do.

Let's say there is a airplane crossing the Atlantic Ocean headed for a very heavily populated U.S. metropolis. The aircraft contains over 250 civilian passengers. There is indisputable evidence that a nuclear warhead with extraordinary destructive power is aboard the plane and is armed to detonate once the aircraft reaches an optimum altitude on its descent. The U.S. military has the capability to shoot down the aircraft before it reaches a position that would instantly incinerate millions of people. Do you shoot it down or not?

i'm an omnipotent god  who is also omniscient.   with the snap of my fingers i completely disarm the warhead, cure AIDs, cancer, and world hunger, and let everyone live happily ever after.

Oh really? And just what would "happily ever after" look like???

Also, you are NOT God. You did not create the universe, our planet, the water, the sand, the sun, the moon, the animals, plants, or any of us. Your mind is incapable of grasping the enormity and complexity of  the vastness of God's existence or any of His creation. Therefore, until you can do such things, you are in a no position to dictate the manner in which they should function. Would you walk into NASA and dictate how the next spacecraft will be designed, engineered, and what color it was going to be painted? They would dismiss you in a rather rapid and forceful manner....but I suspect you wouldn't like that and so you continue to whine and gripe and judge. Are the officials right to remove you from the facilities or not? Of course they would be. You do not possess the knowledge or expertise to dictate how a space program should be managed nor how a spacecraft should be built. You simply have no authority over such matters.  I don't mean this disrespectfully but I marvel at the level of significance you place on yourself and the certainty you display in your views and beliefs in a world filled with countless variations and no way to determine which is right and which is truthful.

If you were able to contemplate that God just might exist and you were then able to begin considering just how grand and far above any of us he really is, you just might start to grasp what I have been trying to assert in this thread.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #141 on: November 18, 2011, 12:41:23 AM »
and it doesn't sound to me like "religion" is getting in the way of you enjoying life.

I said that religion is the greatest threat to the survival of humanity.  Don't you think the end of humanity would get in the way of me enjoying my humanity? 

Have you ever been the most hated minority in your home country Biblestudent?  Ever known what it was like to know that if people around you knew your true feelings that you might be ostracized? Thought less of?  That's how it is in the bible belt for an atheist.  I have to hide what I believe and treat people beliefs with respect that they do not deserve.  If you think I like that, then you're an idiot.

When I lived in Massachusetts, religion didn't get in the way because there were less of it up there.  Down here in the bible belt, religion is constantly in the way.  In fact, when I lived up north, I never even cared about the question of God.  It was only when I moved here that religion was everywhere; and that fact pushed me to discover what the truth was. 

The fact of the matter, Jeff, is that religion is only a small part of what could ultimately get in the way of causing grief to you or anyone else. As long as there are people, there will be differing views and opinions on numerous issues. For example, I demonstrated in an earlier post how various groups of non-theists oppose a woman's choice to have an abortion.....which is something other groups of non-theists promote as a 'right.' You are simply singling out 'religion' to promote your own individual belief system. Religion is nowhere near the problem you or anyone else depict it to be.

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #142 on: November 18, 2011, 12:43:12 AM »
Let's say there is a airplane crossing the Atlantic Ocean headed for a very heavily populated U.S. metropolis. The aircraft contains over 250 civilian passengers. There is indisputable evidence that a nuclear warhead with extraordinary destructive power is aboard the plane and is armed to detonate once the aircraft reaches an optimum altitude on its descent. The U.S. military has the capability to shoot down the aircraft before it reaches a position that would instantly incinerate millions of people. Do you shoot it down or not?
The problem is, in Biblical examples (such as the flood), those numbers are basically reversed.  God was perfectly willing to kill thousands, perhaps millions, of people worldwide by drowning, in order to save eight or so total.  That would be the rough equivalent of evacuating the 250 people from the doomed airplane and getting them to safety, while letting the millions in the city die.

The ends very seldom justify the means.  Occasionally one has to let them, but it doesn't work if the ends are always used to justify the means, because then the means corrupt the ends.

What ???

Offline Alzael

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #143 on: November 18, 2011, 12:46:51 AM »
This is part of the problem. You don't make points and even when I think you try, it is incoherent.

It's pretty much a cliche to say this about you at this point, but at no point did you bother to provide anything to back up this claim. Nor did you actually prove any of your initial assertions either. It's just more baseless BS, BS. Let's move on however.

Funny, pretty much every other person (theist and atheist) seems perfectly capable of understanding when I'm making a point on this forum. But ok, let's roll with this for a minute.

You.
 

God did not say that He regretted causing the flood....nor did He drown ALL of creation. He removed the evil which had almost completely destroyed all of mankind and preserved the only living humans who still recognized Him as the one and only God. Satan's grand plan to obliterate any chance of the promised Messiah was brought to an end. While it may seem harsh to you, the consequences of it not occurring would have been a fatal blow to God's plan to save any of us.   

Me.
He saved the only non-evil people. Who then proceeded to go ahead and do exactly what pissed him off in the first place. Clearly god is a master planner. It was a whole day or two before Noah's son got cursed for doing something wrong.

Here I am pointing out one of the major flaws inherent in "gods plan". Namely that the people he chose to save went ahead and commited the same types of crimes he punished everyone else for immediately.

You had no response to this. If you didn't understand what I was getting at (which seems to be your claim) why didn't you ask for clarification?

And I'm sure the babies of course we're so intensely evil that they had to be drowned as well.

Another point made. This one being that god also drowned all of the babies of the earth. None of whom could have commited any evil as.

Again, no response from you. Also again, if you actually did not understand this, why not ask for clarification on the point that I was making?

Not to mention that an all-powerful god had no choice but to kill everybody. Clearly an omnipotent being just had to do it that way.

A sarcastic comment made here, however a valid point nonetheless. God is all-powerful so there should have been no need to kill anyone (other than that he simply wanted to) to get the end that he desired. Yet he did so anyways.
 
Same as above. No response from you, no request for clarification of the point.

Not to mention that gods plan to "save" us involves saving us from the punishment that he himself inflicted upon us.

Again, a perfectly valid point. Gods plan of "saving" is to save us from something that he himself created and put into place.

Same as above, you know the drill by now.

So what about these does not constitute making a point, BS. Please enlighten me. How were these incoherent or not understandable? Why did you not simply ask for it to be clarified?

But let's go on for now.

You.
Yes, that pretty much sums it up. I trust that everything God has commanded or allowed was for the preservation and betterment of the human race over the entire course of time. He is the Creator, not just some politician in the sky trying to show off.

Me.

However you only think this because god told you so.

Seems to be a fairly straightforward and easy to understand point, isn't it? You trust god only because you were told to trust him. Not for any actually valid reason.

So basically because god tells you that it's for a greater good, it's ok for him to do things that even the most depraved and immoral humans in history would consider evil. All because he has told you to trust him and you decide to do so, even though there's really no apparent reason why you should do so. In fact there's every reason that you shouldn't since by nearly every standard of morals that humans have your god is a monster. Including your own standards. You simply give him a pass because you "trust" that he does these terrible things for a good reason. Wonderful.

Again, a perfectly valid point, isn't it?

By every human standard your god does things that could only be done by a terrible monster. However you excuse it because you "trust" him. Something which he himself told you to do.

What makes this not a valid point about your ideology, BS?

People like Hitler or Pol Pot or Stalin may have killed millions in horrible ways, but at least they had some sense of right or wrong and  some sense of morals. At least they thought they were doing something good, however deluded and wrong they were.

You however, you simply don't care. You show no concern or caring for the suffering and agonies that others experience nor any consequences. Or what may happen to others. All you ever show concern for is the will of your god.

This is pointing out the horrible implications of your theology, BS. That you don't actually care about right or wrong, or others suffering. You only care about what you are told to do and your own salvation.

Aside from being frightening, it also dehumanizes you in a way that is very sad and disturbing.

But again, how is anything I said here and following not a valid point. Or how is it incoherent?

You.
Do you see the hypocrisy? Do you realize you may be just as deceived as you accuse me of being? You claim to use ‘logic’ and ‘rationalization’ as your guide but you cannot validate their trustworthiness anymore than I can validate the Bible. How do you know that ‘logic’ leads to truth?

Me.
There's no hypocrisy at all. The computer that you are using is proof that our methodolgy works. The vaccines that you take, the tv you watch, the food that you eat, the weatherman on the radio that you listened to while you went to work. Nearly everything in our modern lives shows that our methodlogy works. I can look around the room that I am in right now and point to fifty things that show that my methodolgy works, because these things came about as a direct reslut of using that methodology.

A point that shows that the methods of "logic" and "rationalization" have led to almost everything that we enjoy and depend in our lives. A clear refutation of your claim that one cannot validate the trustworthiness of my method anymore than you can the bible. As I pointed out, our method produces real world benefits that anyone can see.

Can you do the same with yours?

How was this incoherent? It was a simple question. Can you use your methodology in a similiar way to show me a real, tangible and practical benefit that comes from it.

This is only one of the posts that I've made so far. However it seems to me that it isn't so much that I don't  make points, but that you've been deliberately ignoring them.

But here you go, in deference to you I made them simpler and explained them in easy words. Feel free to start with those and then we can move onto some of the other ones that have come up so far.

You spend time looking through everyone's post in an efforts to find something that you feel was ignored through negligence and then hound on the person you are writing to.

It's not negligence though, is it? Did you actually go back and read the threads that I linked when you asked for proof about why you went to the ER?

People (not just me) spent entire post after post calling you back to actually respond to various points and issues. Such as your unwillingness to provide Larissa with peer-reviewed expert supporters of creationism, despite your claims that you could find many. How long did we spend on that one, again? Do you want me to go back to your ER thread as well? How many times were the same issues brought up by several people over and over again because you dodged them?

It's not as though those issues were ones that came up once and then no one ever thought about again. They came up constantly.

You don't ignore posts through negligence. The threads I linked to clearly show that because they are full of points brought up over and over again by everyone, and still ignored or dodged.

As for hounding, yes I do actually. That's because I feel it important to point out when people like you are being dishonest in their discussions and outright lying. You don't get to just ignore it when someone makes a point against what you say. You respond to it, even if it only to say "I don't have an answer". It's one thing to sometimes overlook a post when there are a lot of them. Or to not have the time when there are many you have to deal with. However that doesn't apply to you. You ignore posts out of dishonesty. Which is not how the rules of the forum work.

So yes, I do engage in such a thing on occasion. Because it illustrates the point of just how weak of a position people like you have. That you have to continually ignore valid points because you know you can't respond to them in an honest conversation.

As I've mentioned before, you could just actually respond to the points people make instead of dodging. Or at least actually acknowledge them once it's pointed out that you missed them. I don't want to come at you with any crazy ideas, but it might work.

What you seem to focus the majority of your efforts on is making insults and accusations.

Please prove this. While it is true that I do insult you because.....well quite frankly you give me every reason to insult you. I also make and have made many valid points in the process. In fact, that majority of what I have said contains rather points against you and your ideas, as well as what you have said.

Such as my comment about why you are the worst example of humanity possible which preceeded my points about the nature of your theology. I did both, BS. You just ignored what you didn't want to respond to.

Believe it or not, I'm multi-talented. I can make legitimate points in a conversation, and insult scum like you at the same time.

BS, I insult you because you give me absolutely no reason to treat you with any respect at all. You lie, you dodge, you have no intellectual integrity at all, you hide when asked to back up your claims, you show no capacity for empathy or compassion, you are an absolutely terrible person.


You might want to observe how the true intellects in these forums rarely, if ever, attempt to mask their knowledge by beating down their opponent with adolescent remarks.

True intellects? BS, considering you and the way you think, act, and your pitifully limited knowledge the fact that I don't meet your standards of a true intellect is quite possibly the greatest compliment you could give me. Seriously, thank you.

On another note, I'm not beating you down with adolescent remarks. I'm beating you down with truthful remarks backed by evidence, as well as valid points and criticisms. The adolescent remarks are just a bonus. They serve as an outlet to help me deal with people like you.

Then, when you've made those observations, do some self reflection and admit that you are carrying on like a child.

No. If I was carrying on like a child I'd be only insulting you and nothing else. Or I'd be jamming my fingers in my ears and pretending not to listen to you. Or sitting around refusing to engage in the discussion because "I don't want to play with him".

I'm doing none of those.

I am engaging in the conversation, and I am doing it honestly while making valid arguments and backing up my claims. However I am also freely admitting to my feelings regarding you and what you say.

Also, saying "do some self-reflection" doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes from someone like you.

What is the purpose of this? Is it possible that perhaps I am involved in something else and that is why I departed? Is what I do with my time any of your business?

Yes it is possible. However given your standing habit of slinking out of here with your tail between your legs, the implication that you had done so yet again has more than a little validity.

I do concede it was a rather cheap shot, however. I would probably feel bad about it if it had been against anyone else but you.


I beg you to kindly bow out of conversations with me. Talking to you is like trying to watch TV through a substantial haze of static. I know you're there and I know you are trying to say something but I just can't quite tune you in.   

It helps if you actually try, BS. Believe me. It will help if you actually try. Just once try and actually act like someone who deserves some small measure of respect and maybe you'll start to get it. Back up your claims, respond to points, stop dodging, etc.

As it is, I'm betting your reply will be along the lines of: baseless claim, followed by ad hominem, baseless claim, dodge, then whine, etc.
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Offline fishjie

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Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #144 on: November 18, 2011, 12:51:26 AM »
Lol did I hit a nerve bs?   fact of the matter is as an omniscient omnipotent being I could instantly alleviate all suffering.    how?   by not creating humanity in the first place.   i'm omniscient.   i don't need to create anything because i already know how it will turn out.   doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.  I could certainly do a better job than this "god", who has wiped out the world with a flood, and allowed countless suffering to occur on a daily basis for centuries.    based on the evidence, the god in the bible is either bad at his job, malicious, or doesn't care.


Also, you are NOT God. You did not create the universe, our planet, the water, the sand, the sun, the moon, the animals, plants, or any of us. Your mind is incapable of grasping the enormity and complexity of  the vastness of God's existence or any of His creation. 

If that's the case, then YOUR MIND IS INCAPABLE OF GRASPING GOD either.     And yet the christian religion wants to dictate through dogma that God = x,y,z when their minds are too infantile to possibly be able to know him.    You can't have it both ways.   Either god is so far above our ways that we have no way of knowing anything about him and making statements such as "god is good" or "god is evil", or we can look at the evil acts committed in the bible, and conclude that this YHWH character is a jerk.