Author Topic: Most True Christians Are Sadists  (Read 13210 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2056
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2011, 11:12:04 AM »
...See my post #52 above.

Sorry, BS, but all #52 says is that you believe the bible, so you're willing to overlook atrocities by trusting that the bible god knows more than you do. That simply doesn't wash. Should a battered child overlook atrocities because it's his parent who inflicted them? Should a rape victim ignore atrocities because her priest or her boss or her father inflicted them? Should the jews or gypsies ignore atrocities because it was their government who inflicted them? Just because a being has power, just because it is higher in status, just because you perceive it as being better than you, doesn't give it excuses for committing, approving, or celebrating atrocities.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline BibleStudent

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1677
  • Darwins +11/-79
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2011, 11:14:48 AM »
He may not have regretted the flood, but according to the story he DID regret creating man in the first place. Wouldn't he have known how it was all going to turn out? That doesn't speak all that well for his omniscience. It simply doesn't make sense for him to create something he knew he was going to regret. It puts god on the same level as, say, someone having too many drinks at a party even though they know they're going to have a hangover the next day.

The answer to this question is difficult to explain but not so difficult to understand once you’ve grasped it. I recommend you start here:

http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/e_teachings/2008/gods-regrets-mans-free-will

Let me know your thoughts.

OK...I understand what he is saying here, but doesn't that negate the idea of god's having a plan? If an omniscient, omnipotent being sets a plan into action, wouldn't he either be assured of the outcome or have a way to ensure that it comes to fruition?

God’s original plan for man included a way out of the predicament of sin and its consequences. He certainly had to know that the temptation in the Garden could result in man turning away from Him. Again, His foreknowledge anticipated this along with a plan to remedy it but the some of the events in-between were not specifically forseen. They had to occur which just reinforces the argument for free will. It makes less sense to me that God would plan or foreknow every single thing that were take place. That would make us nothing more than robots with no free will and thus pawns in some spiritual game.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2011, 11:25:32 AM »
Quote from: BibleStudent link=topic=20647.msg456658#msg456658
No, I do not approve of any of those......they are not the kind of acts any human should be commiting against the life or well being of another human being.
but golly if God does it, and he personally does per your bible, they are perfectly fine.  This omnipotent, omniscient god can’t get by without using what a human finds abhorrent.  If this god can do anything, then it never would have to.  But it does, evidently because it isn’t omnipotent or it likes to do these things. 
Christian or not, we are capable of diverting God’s “PLAN” (<--- key word). He allows us to make choices that run counter to many of the “PLANS” He has for us. The question asked was how do I “know God’s plan is a good one”. I answered it with a specific statement made by God about what His Plan is for us.
ROFL.  So puny humans are suddenly able to divert god’s plan.  Funny how that isn’t what you’ve claimed before:
Quote
I simply trust that the Creator of our very existence is capable and fully empowered to do with us as He desires in order to fulfill His plan….and, yes, like it or not, ultimately we have no say in the matter.
  It either we have choices or we don’t, BS.  Either your god knows what we will do or not.  And sicne this god evidently does, per your bible’s claims that this god knows already who is damned and who isn’t, your claims of some plan being altered are simply excuses for your god on why it is utterly impotent unlike how it supposedly used to be per the bible.
It’s also hilarious to see you insisting that the words in the bible are right from God and can be accepted as such.  That always comes back to how do you know, considering how much Christians ignore of what God directly said. It’s as if you have hmmm, some kind of magic decoder ring that you create your own god from, everything that you like you’ll follow and all that you don’t, gee, isn’t from this god at all.  &)
Quote
God’s plan is to ultimately do away with all sufferring, evil, and sadness….which I’m sure you will agree is a “good” plan.
Funny how he has to use just those things to do it, which is hilarious.  You know, those things you find abhorrent? 
Quote
God’s original plan for man included a way out of the predicament of sin and its consequences. He certainly had to know that the temptation in the Garden could result in man turning away from Him. Again, His foreknowledge anticipated this along with a plan to remedy it but the some of the events in-between were not specifically forseen. They had to occur which just reinforces the argument for free will. It makes less sense to me that God would plan or foreknow every single thing that were take place. That would make us nothing more than robots with no free will and thus pawns in some spiritual game.
Which plan was that?  The flood and covenant which didn’t work? The giving of laws, which didn’t work?  Funny if God would just have kept a certain snake from being in the garden, none of this would have happened but it comes down to either that God wanted the snake there and wanted the events to happen, or this god is again anything but omniscient or omnipotent.  Again, the claims of free will fail if one actually reads the bible and not take the modern Christian’s excuses and the claims of the bible about god are also mistaken in their claims with the new Christian rewrites. Golly, if BS doesn’t find an omniscient god convenient, then that part of the bible is simple to be ignored.  :D It’s hilarious that now we have a god that fouls up constantly, with his “regretting man’s free will”, etc.  This god supposedly has  “plan” but can’t get anything to work out right.  Indeed, why should anyone think it could, including the Christian claims of the usual “end times” nonsense.   It’s fouled up things so far, so it does seem that the usual joke about God having a hard time with tanks and modern science will come true. 

Truly, BS, your ineptitude is only rivaled by your god’s.  But that’s appropriate since you invented him.   


Ray is so correct, you are only a coward who wants to claim "might equals right".
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline BibleStudent

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1677
  • Darwins +11/-79
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2011, 11:28:27 AM »
...See my post #52 above.

Sorry, BS, but all #52 says is that you believe the bible, so you're willing to overlook atrocities by trusting that the bible god knows more than you do. That simply doesn't wash. Should a battered child overlook atrocities because it's his parent who inflicted them? Should a rape victim ignore atrocities because her priest or her boss or her father inflicted them? Should the jews or gypsies ignore atrocities because it was their government who inflicted them? Just because a being has power, just because it is higher in status, just because you perceive it as being better than you, doesn't give it excuses for committing, approving, or celebrating atrocities.

Yes, that pretty much sums it up. I trust that everything God has commanded or allowed was for the preservation and betterment of the human race over the entire course of time. He is the Creator, not just some politician in the sky trying to show off.

I think I would be more interested in determining whether I chose to believe He exists rather than picking apart what you perceive as questionable methods. Once you have made a decision that you are completely satisfied with, then you will either see things as He sees them or will continue to challenge his existence on the basis of what your mind deems to be the sum of all knowledge. 

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2011, 11:31:13 AM »


Velkyn, you are forgetting the basic principle of SPAG.  Nice people have a nice God.

To them the little Canaanite children went to Heaven.

As opposed to sticking around and being subjected to human sacrifice? Burnt alive? If nothing happened would they( The Canaanites) still be practicing it?How many multiplied thousands more children would have suffered?

something that has no archaeological evidence, and seems to be nothign more than propaganda. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3884
  • Darwins +258/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2011, 11:34:52 AM »
@Velkyn-

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I wish I had answers that would explain why some of the things we interpret as cruel and unjust really aren’t that way. I, for one, am comfortable bending a humble knee to what I believe to be a far superior wisdom even when I do not understand it.

So how do you know it is superior? After all, there numerous examples of God being petty, stupid, vile, spiteful, overemotional, sadistic, and petty throughout that "bible" of yours
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2011, 11:38:49 AM »
[Anyways, to answer your question, sfsy1:
Romans 9: 1-3 speaks of Paul's "unceasing anguish" due to his kinsmen being accursed.  Rest assured, Christians don't enjoy others suffering in Hell, nor does God.  See Ezekiel 18:23 -
Quote from: God, via Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

The fact of the matter is, sfsy1, that sometimes unbelievers are set in their ways against God.  (Take a look at some of the members on this forum for an unfortunate first-hand look.)  As Christians we are indeed interested in saving the lost, but it's only going to work out if they want to be saved.  We pray, we argue, we reason... yet if all our efforts are going for naught, we're going to (tearfully) stop trying, or in your words, to say "Well, everyone is entitled to their beliefs - in this life, anyways."  It sucks, but we're not going to bash our heads against an unrelenting brick wall.  That's not to say God can't work a miracle - of course He could - but in the absence of such a miracle, against demonstrable repeated hardheartedness: yes, we will eventually stop trying.
Nice quote form the OT but the NT shows that this isn't true.  Romans 9, remember where God is saying hat some people he has supposed created, are damned through no fault of their own.  They are "set in their ways against God" because God supposedly wants it that way, per JC and why he uses parables. Per your bible, some people can’t be saved and your god intends it that way.  So your claims fail by biblical contradiction again. 

It’s also funny how your prayers always fail, MiC, if this god wants everyone to come to him.  Every single Christians who has claimed that they were going to pray for me to accept God has failed.  is it that God likes me the way I am?  Does he not listen to your prayers?  Why can't you reason your way into an atheist's mind with evidence that this god exists?  Why are all your arguments for the existence of your god the same for every theist’s?  Why is it so simple to look at all Christians and see that even they can’t agree on what this God “really” meant?   Why are creationists caught in lie after lie?  and claims of “miracles” constantly shown to be false? This god fails amazingly well at never helping any Christian convince an atheist and evidently going out of its way to show that Christians are not to be trusted, if you are acting under his “will”. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3884
  • Darwins +258/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2011, 12:15:25 PM »


Velkyn, you are forgetting the basic principle of SPAG.  Nice people have a nice God.

To them the little Canaanite children went to Heaven.

As opposed to sticking around and being subjected to human sacrifice? Burnt alive? If nothing happened would they( The Canaanites) still be practicing it?How many multiplied thousands more children would have suffered?

something that has no archaeological evidence, and seems to be nothign more than propaganda.

Strangely though, the Hebrew weren't exagerrating about the practices of the cult of Moloch. A lot of historians thought it was just yet another one of their bits of BS propaganda until a temple of Moloch was recently unearthed. What they found makes the Jews look civilized by comparison.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1452
  • Darwins +88/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2011, 12:31:50 PM »

Yes, that pretty much sums it up. I trust that everything God has commanded or allowed was for the preservation and betterment of the human race over the entire course of time. He is the Creator, not just some politician in the sky trying to show off.

Assuming that there is a creator, how can anyone determine what, if anything was commanded or allowed by said creator? In addition, how is it possible to identify or describe said creator beyond descibing it as the creator? More questions.........

1. How are we know know whether or not the creator "created" our world purposely verses us being a random accident?

2. How do we know that the creator even is aware of our existence?

3. Is it possible to determine that any other the creators mentioned in various creation myths are in fact the genuine article?

Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2056
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2011, 12:47:06 PM »
....I think I would be more interested in determining whether I chose to believe He exists rather than picking apart what you perceive as questionable methods. Once you have made a decision that you are completely satisfied with, then you will either see things as He sees them or will continue to challenge his existence on the basis of what your mind deems to be the sum of all knowledge.

Way to jump to conclusions there. None of us is saying we have the sum of all knowledge. If he exists as you've described him he's a monster and I'm not interested in worshiping him. I'm not challenging his existance (although I'm beyond highly skeptical of it). I'm challenging the fact that you have unquestioning obedience to something you believe in without any evidence. What if the muslims turn out to be correct? What if the jews turn out to be correct? What if I turn out to be correct? It was passive acceptance of authority that allowed atrocities in our history to happen. What has your passive acceptance allowed?
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline jynnan tonnix

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1780
  • Darwins +88/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2011, 01:00:06 PM »
Yes, that pretty much sums it up. I trust that everything God has commanded or allowed was for the preservation and betterment of the human race over the entire course of time. He is the Creator, not just some politician in the sky trying to show off.

I think I would be more interested in determining whether I chose to believe He exists rather than picking apart what you perceive as questionable methods. Once you have made a decision that you are completely satisfied with, then you will either see things as He sees them or will continue to challenge his existence on the basis of what your mind deems to be the sum of all knowledge.

Again, though, this pretty much negates the idea that god cares about the least of us. It's rather more as though he has set up this galactic video game in which the ultimate measure of whether he "wins" is whether the earth is in some state of goodness by the time the game is over.

But for all that so many people want to claim we are in the "end times" and so on, it hardly seems that he has done what he had set out to do. At least not thus far. It's not even as though the majority of the earth's people actually believe in him, and this planet is not gonna last forever.

In the meantime, suffering runs rampant, and he doesn't lift an omnipotent finger to do anything about it.

Funny thing about apologetics...you can find answers to any specific question which actually sound pretty good, but as soon as you accept one line of thinking, it seems to punch holes in another.

Online jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4933
  • Darwins +563/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2011, 01:07:41 PM »
Warning, this may be long.

I don’t consider myself significant enough to matter in the first place. That is, if God has what you deem to be sadistic character traits, who am I to question it? Is it necessary for me to like, approve, and cherish everything He does in order to bow down to Him? Most of us have parents and siblings and friends who possess traits and habits that we dislike or do not agree with but that doesn’t prohibit us from continuing to interact with them and show love, understanding and compassion for. I simply trust that the Creator of our very existence is capable and fully empowered to do with us as He desires in order to fulfill His plan….and, yes, like it or not, ultimately we have no say in the matter.

By judging me and proclaiming God a tyrant,, you have elevated yourself to a position of superior intellect and wisdom…..yet you call me “arrogant” and a ‘sycophant?” You speak as though you possess the sum of all knowledge and that your views are indisputable and based on and spoken from an authority that you cannot even identify.
That is entirely the problem.  What you are doing by bowing down to God is saying that you don't care whether he actually is evil.  That means you are acquiescing to evil because it's powerful.  I don't care how powerful someone happens to be, or how close they are to me, if I think they're in the wrong, then I have the duty to point it out to them.  I do no good at all by simply staying silent, or by acquiescing to some "master plan" simply because someone is powerful.  If that's judging, then so be it.

I do not find anything pleasant about any of those....nor would I condone or encourage any person to embrace them as "right."
Except that you would embrace them as 'right' if God commanded you to, as you state in your very next paragraph.

Quote from: BibleStudent
We are teetering on a debate about moral 'rights' and 'wrongs' and that will take on a life all its own. Suffice it to say that while I do not understand all that God has done or is presently doing in this world, I accept my place in HIS creation and concede to His power and might. I am in no position to judge that which CREATED ME nor do I claim to know a better way to fulfill His plan. That, to me, is arrogance and absurdity of the highest order. You and others may question and/or find fault in certain interpretations you have made with respect to God's actions but you are incapable of determining what the outcome would have been had those specific events never occurred.
In other words, if God commanded you to commit genocide, or to murder children by the truckload, you would do it regardless of how you felt about it.  That's what "accepting your place" and "conceding to power and might" mean.  The problem is that means tend to corrupt the end; that's why we have the saying about power corrupting.  Me, I prefer to speak truth to power, rather than letting power determine truth.

Because He says He does:

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Anyone can claim that they're aiming for some nonspecific good end.  It's a lot harder to show people evidence of trustworthiness than to say "trust me, this is for your own good".

Abusive ad hominem <snip>
Yes, those are ad hominems, and you are right to call him out on them, but that is no excuse to ignore the valid parts of what he's saying.

Quote from: BibleStudent
I believe He’s talking to those who believe in Him and have placed their faith in Him.
A good ruler does things that benefit everyone he has authority over, not just the ones he likes or who support him.

Christian or not, we are capable of diverting God’s “PLAN” (<--- key word). He allows us to make choices that run counter to many of the “PLANS” He has for us. The question asked was how do I “know God’s plan is a good one”. I answered it with a specific statement made by God about what His Plan is for us.

God’s plan is to ultimately do away with all sufferring, evil, and sadness….which I’m sure you will agree is a “good” plan.
I know one surefire way to do away with all suffering, evil, and sadness...kill everything that lives (which I absolutely do not advocate or agree with).  I'm quite sure you will agree that this is not a good plan.  Another way to do away with suffering, evil, and sadness is to make everyone into an unfeeling robot that does what it's told.  No feelings means no suffering and no sadness, and if everyone does only what they're told by God, then there's no such thing as evil.  Unfortunately, I can't be quite as sure that you will agree that this is just as bad in its own way as the first way.

I suppose it's a matter of interpretation. I read the Good Book and see a good plan....just the same way you might examine the plan for, say, a way of making peanut butter slices and determine whether it's a good plan or a bad plan. If you read the Good Book and feel that God is playing a big trick on all of us for the purpose of entertaining Himself then I fail to see how I could demonstrate otherwise.
No, it's not the same.  I can test the plan for making peanut butter slices and determine whether it's good or not that way, and if it ends up not being very good, it can be improved on by trying variations.  There is no way to test God's plan, thus no way to tell if it's good or bad, thus no way to improve on it if it happens to be bad.

God did not say that He regretted causing the flood....nor did He drown ALL of creation. He removed the evil which had almost completely destroyed all of mankind and preserved the only living humans who still recognized Him as the one and only God. Satan's grand plan to obliterate any chance of the promised Messiah was brought to an end. While it may seem harsh to you, the consequences of it not occurring would have been a fatal blow to God's plan to save any of us.
Presumably this is according to God (assuming you take the Bible as factual truth, which I don't), who had the opportunity to 'justify' it after the fact to the only people he allowed to survive.  The problem with that is that there's no real way to tell whether there truly was any 'evil' there, or if it was instead something like God throwing a temper tantrum because he wasn't being worshiped enough.  And as for not regretting it, why else promise that he wouldn't destroy the world by water in the future?  If someone thinks they were perfectly right and justified in doing something, they don't arbitrarily say that they won't ever do it again.

Yes, granted, the abbreviated simplistic way I explained it probably does come across to some as sounding a bit like a tall tale. Regardless, it does provide an account (albeit brief) of some of the circumstances involved in the event. Who knows, though, even a more scholarly sounding account may come across the same way to you….I don’t know.
Dress up a myth, with no basis in reality and no evidence to support it, with scholarly rhetoric, and it's still a myth.  That is why some Christians keep trying to distort the historical evidence that we actually have in order to 'prove' that there was a global flood.

Quote from: BibleStudent
I will also concede that some of the stories in the Good Book have a rather odd theme or take place in ways that do not register with our modern way of perceiving the world.  I don’t think there are too many Christians who would deny being puzzled at some of the contents of the Bible. After all, it speaks of a spiritual world that our so-called “enlightened” way of rationalizing has difficulty understanding, much less appreciating.
What it speaks of is people who didn't really understand why things happened, trying to imagine the reasons why those things might have happened.  The problem with that is that it results in speculation that cannot be proved one way or the other.  That's why science focuses on evidence that can be observed and verified.  The explanations for that evidence may be wrong, but they can be checked against the evidence and thrown out if they're shown to be wrong.

Quote from: BibleStudent
However, those impressions do not make it unreal nor do they necessarily mean the Good Book is a fairytale. Instead, it simply means that God’s ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts (Isaiah 55-8). If God's wisdom were to have a weakness, it would still be superior to man’s wisdom (1 Chorinthians 1:18-20). Just because we do not understand something or agree with it does mean we are to dismiss it. We are cautioned not to lean on our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5-6). The result of failing to recognize this is self deception….(I might start a topic on self deception as it relates to the ToE….would love to hear some ‘evolutionary’ explanations for that one).

God created every good thing in this world, including man. It only follows that He knows far more than we do and His wisdom far surpasses our own.
It is true that we can't disprove a "spiritual world", but that is because it exists entirely in the realm of speculation.  There is no evidence for it one way or the other.  I can speculate about telepathic horses and cats on other worlds, and you can't disprove my speculations.  Does that then mean we should treat those telepathic horses and cats as real despite the lack of any evidence about them at all?

God’s original plan for man included a way out of the predicament of sin and its consequences. He certainly had to know that the temptation in the Garden could result in man turning away from Him. Again, His foreknowledge anticipated this along with a plan to remedy it but the some of the events in-between were not specifically forseen. They had to occur which just reinforces the argument for free will. It makes less sense to me that God would plan or foreknow every single thing that were take place. That would make us nothing more than robots with no free will and thus pawns in some spiritual game.
That begs the question of why God provided such an easy means to sin in the 'paradise' of the garden of Eden to begin with.  The way it plays out in the Bible comes across like a parent leaving a knife out on the table, warning their little child not to touch it or they'll hurt themselves, then when the child cuts their hand and the parent finds out, the parent kicks them out to go live in the wilderness for disobeying.  And it doesn't get any better from then on.

Yes, that pretty much sums it up. I trust that everything God has commanded or allowed was for the preservation and betterment of the human race over the entire course of time. He is the Creator, not just some politician in the sky trying to show off.
Then I guess allowing the tree to be there so that Adam and Eve could eat from it even though he commanded them not to "was for the preservation and betterment of the human race over the entire course of time"?

Quote from: BibleStudent
I think I would be more interested in determining whether I chose to believe He exists rather than picking apart what you perceive as questionable methods. Once you have made a decision that you are completely satisfied with, then you will either see things as He sees them or will continue to challenge his existence on the basis of what your mind deems to be the sum of all knowledge.
If you don't pick apart questionable methods, then you can't possibly base your belief on anything other than sand, perhaps even quicksand.  And you don't have to think you possess the sum of all knowledge to see and realize that something's fishy about a belief when the evidence doesn't support it, and when it depends upon accepting a being as 'right' because it's mighty.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 01:10:55 PM by jaimehlers »

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2011, 01:12:08 PM »
Strangely though, the Hebrew weren't exagerrating about the practices of the cult of Moloch. A lot of historians thought it was just yet another one of their bits of BS propaganda until a temple of Moloch was recently unearthed. What they found makes the Jews look civilized by comparison.

have you a link to this stuff? I hadn't seen anything about it if it's new.  Wiki has some stuff but it all seems to indicate that the assumptions of child sacrifice isn't very valid from its sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sacrifice#Ancient_Near_East

« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 01:18:13 PM by velkyn »
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline onesteward

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
  • Darwins +3/-7
  • Gender: Male
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2011, 01:35:24 PM »

As opposed to sticking around and being subjected to human sacrifice? Burnt alive? If nothing happened would they( The Canaanites) still be practicing it?How many multiplied thousands more children would have suffered?


Not a lot.  The Hebrews practiced human sacrifice, too.  Including their own children.  They eventually quit.

Exactly...Ps 106: 34-42. They didn't destroy the Canaanites and eventually became like them-Just as God said they would.He then in turn punished them severely to bring them to repentance...which it seems to have done.
Quote
The Canaanite children were not killed to save them.  They were killed as human sacrifice to Jehovah.

I've seen Moloch mentioned and this admonition from God:     You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshipping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. (Deut 12.31)

 And this:  Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, (Deut 18.10)
I haven't seen Jehovah mentioned as one of the Canaanite gods but I didn't check extensively.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3884
  • Darwins +258/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2011, 02:09:10 PM »
Strangely though, the Hebrew weren't exagerrating about the practices of the cult of Moloch. A lot of historians thought it was just yet another one of their bits of BS propaganda until a temple of Moloch was recently unearthed. What they found makes the Jews look civilized by comparison.

have you a link to this stuff? I hadn't seen anything about it if it's new.  Wiki has some stuff but it all seems to indicate that the assumptions of child sacrifice isn't very valid from its sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sacrifice#Ancient_Near_East

Sorry, I had heard this about 15 years ago from someone with a history degree. After a little bit of snooping, he vastly overstated it. I took him at face value because he first talked about points where archeology didn't match the Bible.

However there was a Temple of Moloch which did have the remains of over 6000 children buried benath it. Evidence shows that they were burned. However scholarly debate remains to this date....and I mean real scholars, not just people looking to justify the Bible, as to whether this was a ritual disposing of children who had died, or ritual Child sacrifice.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 02:19:07 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline BibleStudent

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1677
  • Darwins +11/-79
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2011, 02:15:04 PM »

Yes, that pretty much sums it up. I trust that everything God has commanded or allowed was for the preservation and betterment of the human race over the entire course of time. He is the Creator, not just some politician in the sky trying to show off.

Assuming that there is a creator, how can anyone determine what, if anything was commanded or allowed by said creator? In addition, how is it possible to identify or describe said creator beyond descibing it as the creator? More questions.........

1. How are we know know whether or not the creator "created" our world purposely verses us being a random accident?

2. How do we know that the creator even is aware of our existence?

3. Is it possible to determine that any other the creators mentioned in various creation myths are in fact the genuine article?

The Bible along with faith is the answer to all of your questions.

Offline fishjie

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Darwins +12/-0
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2011, 02:24:06 PM »

Yes, that pretty much sums it up. I trust that everything God has commanded or allowed was for the preservation and betterment of the human race over the entire course of time. He is the Creator, not just some politician in the sky trying to show off.

Assuming that there is a creator, how can anyone determine what, if anything was commanded or allowed by said creator? In addition, how is it possible to identify or describe said creator beyond descibing it as the creator? More questions.........

1. How are we know know whether or not the creator "created" our world purposely verses us being a random accident?

2. How do we know that the creator even is aware of our existence?

3. Is it possible to determine that any other the creators mentioned in various creation myths are in fact the genuine article?

The Bible along with faith is the answer to all of your questions.

How do you know the bible is valid?     

The problem here is you stated that God has a good plan in the bible.   When called out on it and pointed out the problems with this "plan" in said Bible, you say it doesn't matter because God is super powerful, so obviously we cannot question him.    You didn't actually address any of the posts at all and completely ignored mine.     This means you don't  have a good explanation for it, which means the bible does not contain the answers.    If it did, you could simply use them to respond to all these questions. Which just leaves faith.   Which is believing in something for no good reason. 

Which basically means there's no good rational reason to believe in any of this.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3884
  • Darwins +258/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2011, 02:26:00 PM »

Yes, that pretty much sums it up. I trust that everything God has commanded or allowed was for the preservation and betterment of the human race over the entire course of time. He is the Creator, not just some politician in the sky trying to show off.

Assuming that there is a creator, how can anyone determine what, if anything was commanded or allowed by said creator? In addition, how is it possible to identify or describe said creator beyond descibing it as the creator? More questions.........

1. How are we know know whether or not the creator "created" our world purposely verses us being a random accident?

2. How do we know that the creator even is aware of our existence?

3. Is it possible to determine that any other the creators mentioned in various creation myths are in fact the genuine article?

The Bible along with faith is the answer to all of your questions.

So your answer is "we can't, but I'll just go along with the myth structure prevalent in the society around me anyway, because that makes me comfortable and not think too much"
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline MathIsCool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
  • Darwins +1/-6
  • Gender: Male
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2011, 02:39:52 PM »
Romans 9, remember where God is saying hat some people he has supposed created, are damned through no fault of their own.  They are "set in their ways against God" because God supposedly wants it that way, per JC and why he uses parables. Per your bible, some people can’t be saved and your god intends it that way.  So your claims fail by biblical contradiction again. 
What claim of mine failed by biblical contradiction again?  Look at Romans 9 a little more closely, I'm curious where it says people are damned through no fault of their own.  The specific verse in Romans 9, if you would be so kind.

It’s also funny how your prayers always fail, MiC, if this god wants everyone to come to him.  Every single Christians who has claimed that they were going to pray for me to accept God has failed.  is it that God likes me the way I am?  Does he not listen to your prayers?  Why can't you reason your way into an atheist's mind with evidence that this god exists?  Why are all your arguments for the existence of your god the same for every theist’s?  Why is it so simple to look at all Christians and see that even they can’t agree on what this God “really” meant?   Why are creationists caught in lie after lie?  and claims of “miracles” constantly shown to be false? This god fails amazingly well at never helping any Christian convince an atheist and evidently going out of its way to show that Christians are not to be trusted, if you are acting under his “will”.
Tell me, Velkyn: Supposing God is real, supposing the whole biblical narrative, from creation to fall to redemption, is true.  Is God then under an obligation to save you?

Demanding God's salvation as some sort of right you are entitled to won't get you anywhere.  Humbly and brokenly asking for it as something you don't deserve - you might have more luck that way.
Why not name the website ... "whywontGodallowlaserstoshootoutofmyeyespewpewpew.com"

 - Expurgate, here

Offline fishjie

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Darwins +12/-0
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2011, 02:52:12 PM »
Romans 9, remember where God is saying hat some people he has supposed created, are damned through no fault of their own.  They are "set in their ways against God" because God supposedly wants it that way, per JC and why he uses parables. Per your bible, some people can’t be saved and your god intends it that way.  So your claims fail by biblical contradiction again. 
What claim of mine failed by biblical contradiction again?  Look at Romans 9 a little more closely, I'm curious where it says people are damned through no fault of their own.  The specific verse in Romans 9, if you would be so kind.

It’s also funny how your prayers always fail, MiC, if this god wants everyone to come to him.  Every single Christians who has claimed that they were going to pray for me to accept God has failed.  is it that God likes me the way I am?  Does he not listen to your prayers?  Why can't you reason your way into an atheist's mind with evidence that this god exists?  Why are all your arguments for the existence of your god the same for every theist’s?  Why is it so simple to look at all Christians and see that even they can’t agree on what this God “really” meant?   Why are creationists caught in lie after lie?  and claims of “miracles” constantly shown to be false? This god fails amazingly well at never helping any Christian convince an atheist and evidently going out of its way to show that Christians are not to be trusted, if you are acting under his “will”.
Tell me, Velkyn: Supposing God is real, supposing the whole biblical narrative, from creation to fall to redemption, is true.  Is God then under an obligation to save you?

Demanding God's salvation as some sort of right you are entitled to won't get you anywhere.  Humbly and brokenly asking for it as something you don't deserve - you might have more luck that way.

Ok let's assume for a second that God is omnipotent and omniscient (let's just set aside the fact for now that both attributes are logically impossible).   God creates humanity.     He puts a talking snake in there, KNOWING he will corrupt adam and eve.     This is similar to leaving a baby with used heroin needles lying around the house.   Humanity is now fallen.   At this point, if we take at face value that jesus is the only way into heaven (except Enoch and Elijah who got to ascend), then the vast majority of these people all burn in hell.    He waits thousands of years later to send jesus, KNOWING that in the meantime, billions will be burning.   

Jesus comes and goes.    God despite his amazing power, only manifests himself in a small remote section of the desert aka the middle east.   He completely ignores the rest of the world, even though he is powerful enough to use teleportation (we see in the book of Acts that Philip was teleported away after he had baptized the Ethiopian.   Jesus also teleported around after he rose from the dead) to have sent Jesus everywhere to spread the good news.    During this time, billions of people end up burning in hell, as missionaries are too slow to convert.   

So to conclude, God sets humanity up to fail, knowing it will fail, then takes his sweet time sending salvation around, and punishes billions with eternal damnation for simply being born in the wrong country or before jesus was born.

So yes, it is fair to demand salvation, since billions have been unfairly punished.     

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1452
  • Darwins +88/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2011, 02:59:29 PM »

Yes, that pretty much sums it up. I trust that everything God has commanded or allowed was for the preservation and betterment of the human race over the entire course of time. He is the Creator, not just some politician in the sky trying to show off.

Assuming that there is a creator, how can anyone determine what, if anything was commanded or allowed by said creator? In addition, how is it possible to identify or describe said creator beyond descibing it as the creator? More questions.........

1. How are we know know whether or not the creator "created" our world purposely verses us being a random accident?

2. How do we know that the creator even is aware of our existence?

3. Is it possible to determine that any other the creators mentioned in various creation myths are in fact the genuine article?

The Bible along with faith is the answer to all of your questions.

Ah ha, now to the real issue! The issue BibleStudent is this: There is no reason that we can rely on that will lead anyone to reasonably conclude that the Bible is in fact a writing inspired by the hypothetical creator we are discussing.

Why do you believe that the Bible is a collective of God's books?

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2011, 03:17:19 PM »
Romans 9, remember where God is saying hat some people he has supposed created, are damned through no fault of their own.  They are "set in their ways against God" because God supposedly wants it that way, per JC and why he uses parables. Per your bible, some people can’t be saved and your god intends it that way.  So your claims fail by biblical contradiction again. 
What claim of mine failed by biblical contradiction again?  Look at Romans 9 a little more closely, I'm curious where it says people are damned through no fault of their own.  The specific verse in Romans 9, if you would be so kind.
Oh I do love when Christians are stuck between claiming ridiculous ignorance or hoping I evidently can’t read a bible since I’m an atheist in order to put off the inevitable.  Hilarious.  Well, dear, since you simply can’t find wehre this is, I’ll humor you, and I’ll even give a play by play.
Quote
Romans 9: 10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
before Jacob and Esau did anything, God decided who he love and who he hated.  No choice there at all for the humans.
Quote
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,  and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Again, no choice at all for humans. 
Quote
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Again, no choice for humans.  God makes someone do what God wants for no more purpose than to show off.  Gee how fair and generous, blah, blah, blah.
Quote
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
This could be right out of Job, the usual blowhard God insisting that might makes right.  Why indeed does God blame those whom he controls? Again, we see that god makes some to be damned for no reason and some not to be, again for no reason, except divine capriciousness. 
Quote
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
and again, we see God randomly choosing one group to benefit and the rest to damn, only created to show off with. 

The contradiction comes in with these lovely verses from your bible:
This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. -1 Timothy 2:4
"Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign LORD. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live. - Ezekiel 18:23
I don't want you to die, says the Sovereign LORD. Turn back and live!
-Ezekiel 18:32
The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. -2 Peter 3:9

Now, which is it, MiC?  Are there those who cannot ever be accept JC and be saved like is said in Romans 9 and Matthew 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8?  Or is everyone given an equal chance as these verses from Timothy, Ezekiel and Peter say?
It’s also funny how your prayers always fail, MiC, if this god wants everyone to come to him.  Every single Christians who has claimed that they were going to pray for me to accept God has failed.  is it that God likes me the way I am?  Does he not listen to your prayers?  Why can't you reason your way into an atheist's mind with evidence that this god exists?  Why are all your arguments for the existence of your god the same for every theist’s?  Why is it so simple to look at all Christians and see that even they can’t agree on what this God “really” meant?   Why are creationists caught in lie after lie?  and claims of “miracles” constantly shown to be false? This god fails amazingly well at never helping any Christian convince an atheist and evidently going out of its way to show that Christians are not to be trusted, if you are acting under his “will”.
Tell me, Velkyn: Supposing God is real, supposing the whole biblical narrative, from creation to fall to redemption, is true.  Is God then under an obligation to save you?[/quote] Assuming God is real and the *whole* bible narrative is true?  Well, to assume it all true, the contradictions make that rather hard since daming some and accepting everyone cannot exist at the same time.  However, if I assume those parts that you seem to think are true are true, and ignore those others, I would say yes, he is.  If this god really does want everyone to come to him, he is required to do all that he can to get me to believe and being omnipotent and omniscient, he should know exactly what that would take. In that I already know what that is, this would be “forcing’ me like so many apologists want to claim, to excuse their god’s impotence.  He simply has to meet that  requirement, which incidentally, he’s responsible for if he made me the way I am, questioning mind, and keen eye for hypocrisy.
Quote
Demanding God's salvation as some sort of right you are entitled to won't get you anywhere.  Humbly and brokenly asking for it as something you don't deserve - you might have more luck that way.

ROFL.  Oh and another magic spell way to get this god’s attention.  As I’ve said before, tried that, tried asking “humbly and brokenly” for this god’s help to keep my faith and I got nothing.  Let me guess, MiC, you’ll say that I didn’t’ ask “humbly and brokenly” enough. :D   Isn’t that convenient! 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline BibleStudent

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1677
  • Darwins +11/-79
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2011, 03:33:19 PM »
The problem here is you stated that God has a good plan in the bible.   When called out on it and pointed out the problems with this "plan" in said Bible, you say it doesn't matter because God is super powerful, so obviously we cannot question him.    You didn't actually address any of the posts at all and completely ignored mine.     This means you don't  have a good explanation for it, which means the bible does not contain the answers.    If it did, you could simply use them to respond to all these questions. Which just leaves faith.   Which is believing in something for no good reason. 

Which basically means there's no good rational reason to believe in any of this.
So your answer is "we can't, but I'll just go along with the myth structure prevalent in the society around me anyway, because that makes me comfortable and not think too much"

Ah ha, now to the real issue! The issue BibleStudent is this: There is no reason that we can rely on that will lead anyone to reasonably conclude that the Bible is in fact a writing inspired by the hypothetical creator we are discussing.

Why do you believe that the Bible is a collective of God's books?

Bible verses are typically frowned upon in this forum as acceptable evidence so I hesitate to inject too many of them into any conversation. But, yes, it is the Bible that declares God goodness and if you would like me to provide some examples, I would be glad to do so. If you are seeking some type of empirical proof for the validity of the Bible then you are going to have to decide whether Jesus was and is Who the Bible says.  Did He walk the earth as God Himself? Only you can decide that based on the evidence you seek and examine. It is a decision each of us makes. We each individually examine the evidence behind different views and beliefs and form a ‘position.’ This position can change from time to time and even radically in some people’s lives...but it is a personal decision that only you can make.

You seek tangible empirical evidence to validate your beliefs. Nothing outside of that system will satisfy how you form your position. There is simply no room for looking outside of that system because that is all you know and all you are willing to employ. You can’t see, hear, or touch God so, therefore, He does not exist. And even if He does exist, the moral standards you have adopted will dictate whether He is a good God or a bad God. In other words, you have confined yourself to a specific methodology for determining truth and proof and goodness and  it is based on what your senses are capable of confirming or what some theory proclaims as true.. all the while being completely incapable of determining whether it is absolutely correct or not. Do you see the hypocrisy? Do you realize you may be just as deceived as you accuse me of being? You claim to use ‘logic’ and ‘rationalization’ as your guide but you cannot validate their trustworthiness anymore than I can validate the Bible. How do you know that ‘logic’ leads to truth?

Christian beliefs are not confined solely to that methodology. We understand that there very well may exist something that our senses are incapable of confirming.
 
What I find amusing is that the non-theist will continues to ask the same questions and probe for the same evidence that they know does not exist. Rather odd.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 03:43:21 PM by BibleStudent »

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3884
  • Darwins +258/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2011, 03:45:37 PM »

What I find amusing is that the non-theist will continues to ask the same questions and probe for the same evidence that they know does not exist. Rather odd.


Not odd, it is just tring to pound the fact that you have no evidence, therefore are asserting thing that are non-sense with no more proof than Santa Claus, so that the least dense amongst theists might actually get it.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline fishjie

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Darwins +12/-0
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2011, 04:01:18 PM »

Bible verses are typically frowned upon in this forum as acceptable evidence so I hesitate to inject too many of them into any conversation. But, yes, it is the Bible that declares God goodness and if you would like me to provide some examples, I would be glad to do so. If you are seeking some type of empirical proof for the validity of the Bible then you are going to have to decide whether Jesus was and is Who the Bible says.  Did He walk the earth as God Himself? Only you can decide that based on the evidence you seek and examine. It is a decision each of us makes. We each individually examine the evidence behind different views and beliefs and form a ‘position.’ This position can change from time to time and even radically in some people’s lives...but it is a personal decision that only you can make.

You seek tangible empirical evidence to validate your beliefs. Nothing outside of that system will satisfy how you form your position. There is simply no room for looking outside of that system because that is all you know and all you are willing to employ. You can’t see, hear, or touch God so, therefore, He does not exist. And even if He does exist, the moral standards you have adopted will dictate whether He is a good God or a bad God. In other words, you have confined yourself to a specific methodology for determining truth and proof and goodness and  it is based on what your senses are capable of confirming or what some theory proclaims as true.. all the while being completely incapable of determining whether it is absolutely correct or not. Do you see the hypocrisy? Do you realize you may be just as deceived as you accuse me of being? You claim to use ‘logic’ and ‘rationalization’ as your guide but you cannot validate their trustworthiness anymore than I can validate the Bible. How do you know that ‘logic’ leads to truth?

Christian beliefs are not confined solely to that methodology. We understand that there very well may exist something that our senses are incapable of confirming.
 
What I find amusing is that the non-theist will continues to ask the same questions and probe for the same evidence that they know does not exist. Rather odd.

Bro you just typed out a long winded way of saying "I don't know".     

Why can't the exact same argument be used for other religions?   I could replace "Bible" with Qu'ran or Tao te Ching or Book of Mormon or any other religious text, and such.   

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2011, 04:20:08 PM »
Bible verses are typically frowned upon in this forum as acceptable evidence so I hesitate to inject too many of them into any conversation. But, yes, it is the Bible that declares God goodness and if you would like me to provide some examples, I would be glad to do so. If you are seeking some type of empirical proof for the validity of the Bible then you are going to have to decide whether Jesus was and is Who the Bible says.  Did He walk the earth as God Himself? Only you can decide that based on the evidence you seek and examine. It is a decision each of us makes. We each individually examine the evidence behind different views and beliefs and form a ‘position.’ This position can change from time to time and even radically in some people’s lives...but it is a personal decision that only you can make.
Shall I quote some of the Qu’ran to tell you how great it is too. Surely you’ll believe me that it’s correct since it obviously *says* its telling the truth.  &)    What, you want evidence that Allah is real and Mohammed really did fly to Jerusalem in a single night and wrote what the angel Gabriel recited to him?  Gee, we’ll need to decide all this “really” means, with empircle evidence and everything.  It’s cute to see you deciding against all reality that evidence can mean anything anyone wants just so your can excuse your god’s lack of it.  My, how nice that would be for a criminal court. 
Quote
You seek tangible empirical evidence to validate your beliefs.
and so do so very many Christians, to the point of lying about what they have supposedly found.
Quote
Nothing outside of that system will satisfy how you form your position. There is simply no room for looking outside of that system because that is all you know and all you are willing to employ. You can’t see, hear, or touch God so, therefore, He does not exist.
and you do the same thing.  You can’t hear or touch Zeus so he doesn’t exist. Golly how can anyone think of thinking such a thing. :D
Quote
And even if He does exist, the moral standards you have adopted will dictate whether He is a good God or a bad God.
  Why yes they do.  You see, I don’t like slavery, or treating women as property or killing your children if they are disobedient, or killing someone if they didn’t cough up enough tithe money. etc.  Your god has no problem with these things.  I suppose you have no problem with them either, because if you do, you are judging this god’s morality just as much as me. 

Your supposed holy book was written and complied in an age where this god’s morality mirrored the people’s.  No one would question it since it was their own.  Now, that humanity has mostly advanced beyond the tribal state, we have morals that reflect that. And your god is left behind in the Bronze/Iron ages, still a bratty warlord with too much power.  What’s sad is that you like this tribal nonsense, obeying the warlord no matter what because you’ve wrapped up all of your self-worth in greedily backing something you think is powerful and will give you what you want.  Happily many people have advanced beyond such an attitude.
Quote
In other words, you have confined yourself to a specific methodology for determining truth and proof and goodness and  it is based on what your senses are capable of confirming or what some theory proclaims as true.. all the while being completely incapable of determining whether it is absolutely correct or not. Do you see the hypocrisy? Do you realize you may be just as deceived as you accuse me of being? You claim to use ‘logic’ and ‘rationalization’ as your guide but you cannot validate their trustworthiness anymore than I can validate the Bible. How do you know that ‘logic’ leads to truth?
a methodology that you use too, BS.  But only when it’s convenient for you.  And you claim hypocrisy and attempt to claim that atheists may be as deceieved as a theist is.  Well, show how we are deceieved, BS, if you think we are.  Show us this god of yours so we aren’t.   And unfortunately for you, we can validate the use of logic, reason (not rationalization, which would imply a presupposition) and evidence.  It all shows that your bible is nonsense and a compliation of myths from uneducated men from a millennium and more ago.
Quote
Christian beliefs are not confined solely to that methodology. We understand that there very well may exist something that our senses are incapable of confirming.
 
What I find amusing is that the non-theist will continues to ask the same questions and probe for the same evidence that they know does not exist. Rather odd.
And the old attempt to be clever by asking “but why do atheists ask questions that they know we can’t answer”.  As has been said, it’s to show that you have nothing to stand on when you do claim to have evidence of this god.  You keep making the claims, I keep showing how you are wrong.  Admittedly it gets tedious, but lies make me annoyed. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline MathIsCool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
  • Darwins +1/-6
  • Gender: Male
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2011, 04:39:33 PM »
Oh I do love when Christians are stuck between claiming ridiculous ignorance or hoping I evidently can’t read a bible since I’m an atheist in order to put off the inevitable.  Hilarious.  Well, dear, since you simply can’t find wehre this is, I’ll humor you, and I’ll even give a play by play.
Quote
Romans 9: 10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
before Jacob and Esau did anything, God decided who he love and who he hated.  No choice there at all for the humans.
Quote
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,  and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Again, no choice at all for humans. 
Quote
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Again, no choice for humans.  God makes someone do what God wants for no more purpose than to show off.  Gee how fair and generous, blah, blah, blah.
Quote
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
This could be right out of Job, the usual blowhard God insisting that might makes right.  Why indeed does God blame those whom he controls? Again, we see that god makes some to be damned for no reason and some not to be, again for no reason, except divine capriciousness. 
Quote
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
and again, we see God randomly choosing one group to benefit and the rest to damn, only created to show off with. 
Yep, that's Romans 9.  "God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy."  Now show me where in there people are damned, that is, sent to Hell, through no fault of their own.  Note that a lack of God showing mercy does not mean that they do not deserve judgement.


Quote from: me
Tell me, Velkyn: Supposing God is real, supposing the whole biblical narrative, from creation to fall to redemption, is true.  Is God then under an obligation to save you?
...I would say yes, he is.  If this god really does want everyone to come to him, he is required to do all that he can to get me to believe and being omnipotent and omniscient, he should know exactly what that would take. In that I already know what that is, this would be “forcing’ me like so many apologists want to claim, to excuse their god’s impotence.  He simply has to meet that  requirement, which incidentally, he’s responsible for if he made me the way I am, questioning mind, and keen eye for hypocrisy.
Wow.  Really?

Let me be very clear here: He is under no obligation to save you.  He is under NO obligation to show you mercy.  He WILL, if you but ask him, but your demanding it of Him like a petulant child will get you nowhere.  I mean, how could you even think He has some sort of obligation to you?  Remember, we're assuming the whole biblical narrative is true.  How in the world do you get from "I've sinned against an infinitely holy Creator" to "He really ought to save me because I know better than He does about what's best."  Have you even read the Bible?  I mean, that's the whole point of Romans 9: You're a sinner.  You've sinned.  You don't get to demand things of God.  You just don't.  Have you really truly and honestly examined your own life, that you could honestly think a perfect and holy God is required to capitulate to your demands?  Seriously?  The arrogance of such a claim is stunning...
Why not name the website ... "whywontGodallowlaserstoshootoutofmyeyespewpewpew.com"

 - Expurgate, here

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3884
  • Darwins +258/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2011, 04:54:53 PM »


Quote from: me
Tell me, Velkyn: Supposing God is real, supposing the whole biblical narrative, from creation to fall to redemption, is true.  Is God then under an obligation to save you?
...I would say yes, he is.  If this god really does want everyone to come to him, he is required to do all that he can to get me to believe and being omnipotent and omniscient, he should know exactly what that would take. In that I already know what that is, this would be “forcing’ me like so many apologists want to claim, to excuse their god’s impotence.  He simply has to meet that  requirement, which incidentally, he’s responsible for if he made me the way I am, questioning mind, and keen eye for hypocrisy.
Wow.  Really?

Let me be very clear here: He is under no obligation to save you.  He is under NO obligation to show you mercy.  He WILL, if you but ask him, but your demanding it of Him like a petulant child will get you nowhere.  I mean, how could you even think He has some sort of obligation to you?  Remember, we're assuming the whole biblical narrative is true.  How in the world do you get from "I've sinned against an infinitely holy Creator" to "He really ought to save me because I know better than He does about what's best."  Have you even read the Bible?  I mean, that's the whole point of Romans 9: You're a sinner.  You've sinned.  You don't get to demand things of God.  You just don't.  Have you really truly and honestly examined your own life, that you could honestly think a perfect and holy God is required to capitulate to your demands?  Seriously?  The arrogance of such a claim is stunning...

Amazingly, well ok, not so amazingly.... you aren't resonding to what he wrote.

note that his whole statment is predicated on the condition of God being just and benificent. Buy IF god is just and benificent He MUST take responsibility for things he could resonable forsee. IF he is omnicient, he can forsee that Velkyn is doomed to an eternity of torment UNLESS a condition is met. Also IF he is omnipotent he can meet that condition.

This isn't a "petulant demand;" it is a basic reason chain of causality.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline fishjie

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Darwins +12/-0
Re: Most True Christians Are Sadists
« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2011, 05:02:36 PM »


Quote from: me
Tell me, Velkyn: Supposing God is real, supposing the whole biblical narrative, from creation to fall to redemption, is true.  Is God then under an obligation to save you?
...I would say yes, he is.  If this god really does want everyone to come to him, he is required to do all that he can to get me to believe and being omnipotent and omniscient, he should know exactly what that would take. In that I already know what that is, this would be “forcing’ me like so many apologists want to claim, to excuse their god’s impotence.  He simply has to meet that  requirement, which incidentally, he’s responsible for if he made me the way I am, questioning mind, and keen eye for hypocrisy.
Wow.  Really?

Let me be very clear here: He is under no obligation to save you.  He is under NO obligation to show you mercy.  He WILL, if you but ask him, but your demanding it of Him like a petulant child will get you nowhere.  I mean, how could you even think He has some sort of obligation to you?  Remember, we're assuming the whole biblical narrative is true.  How in the world do you get from "I've sinned against an infinitely holy Creator" to "He really ought to save me because I know better than He does about what's best."  Have you even read the Bible?  I mean, that's the whole point of Romans 9: You're a sinner.  You've sinned.  You don't get to demand things of God.  You just don't.  Have you really truly and honestly examined your own life, that you could honestly think a perfect and holy God is required to capitulate to your demands?  Seriously?  The arrogance of such a claim is stunning...

Amazingly, well ok, not so amazingly.... you aren't resonding to what he wrote.

note that his whole statment is predicated on the condition of God being just and benificent. Buy IF god is just and benificent He MUST take responsibility for things he could resonable forsee. IF he is omnicient, he can forsee that Velkyn is doomed to an eternity of torment UNLESS a condition is met. Also IF he is omnipotent he can meet that condition.

This isn't a "petulant demand;" it is a basic reason chain of causality.

yeah amazingly, not so amazingly, dude ignored my post too.   tsk