Evidence that God is the Devil?

[One Above All]

Short intro: I was browsing Wikipedia (Ray Wise's page, to be more specific) and one link led to another, which eventually led me to these:

1 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

I am beginning to think that all of this makes sense - These goat herders weren't as stupid as we thought; they left clues so that we'd know who the real bad guy is! Kinda like the Illuminati and other secret societies that everyone knows about for some reason.

[Samuelxcs]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_as_the_Devil

Well God is more evil than what some Christians would consider the Devil to be today. Others do know that God is more evil so must be a devil rather than a God.

The teaching of God as the Devil has been an accusation leveled at various Christian heretics from the 2nd century to the medieval period. In the modern period authors, such as Thomas Paine, have made the case that the Biblical god is a divine force that wreaks suffering, death, and destruction and that tempts or commands humanity into committing mayhem and genocide.

In the Hebrew Bible God is depicted as the source of both light and darkness, as in Isaiah 45:6-7.[1] However this concept of "darkness" and "evil" is not equivalent to "the devil," a later development in Jewish thought.[2] David's Satan

Many authors have questioned the apparent contradiction correspondence in two Biblical passages. Their significance has been debated by Biblical scholars through the ages,[3] where an action attributed to God in 2 Samuel 24:1 is apparently attributed to Satan in 1 Chronicles 21:1. Christianity

Heretics in The Early Church
There is no first hand evidence that any heretic of the early church ever described the God of the Bible as the devil.


Marcion of Sinope
Tertullian accuses Marcion of Sinope, the first major heretic of Christianity in the 1st century AD, that he "[held that] the Old Testament was a scandal to the faithful … and … accounted for it by postulating [that Jehovah was] a secondary deity, a demiurgus, who was god, in a sense, but not the supreme God; he was just, rigidly just, he had his good qualities, but he was not the good god, who was Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ."[4] The Church condemned his writings as heretical.
John Arendzen (1909) in the Catholic Encyclopedia (1913) mentions that Eusebius accused Apelles, the 2nd century AD Gnostic, of considering the Inspirer of Old-Testament prophecies to be not a god, but an evil angel.[5]
Hegemonius (4th C.) accuses the Persian prophet Mani, founder of the Manichaean sect in the 3rd century AD, identified Jehovah as "the devil god which created the world"[6] and said that "he who spoke with Moses, the Jews, and the priests … is the [Prince] of Darkness, … not the god of truth."[7]
According to their critics, these heretics referred to the Abrahamic God variously as "a demiurgus",[4] "an evil angel",[5] "the devil god",[6] "the Prince of Darkness",[7] "the source of all evil",[8] "the Devil",[9] "a demon",[10] "a cruel, wrathful, warlike tyrant",[11] "Satan"[12] and "the first beast of the book of Revelation".[13]
[edit]Heretics in the Middle Ages
Likewise there is no first-hand evidence that any medieval heretic ever called the God of the Bible the devil.
Nicholas Weber in the Catholic Encyclopedia article Albigenses (1907) notes that the enemies of the Albigenses, a Christian sect in 12th- and 13th-century France, a branch of the Cathari, accused them that their doctrine held that "the creator … of the material world … is the source of all evil … He created the human body and is the author of sin … The Old Testament must be either partly or entirely ascribed to him; whereas the New Testament is the revelation of the beneficent God."[8] They ultimately came into conflict with both the civil order and the Church which lead to the Albigensian Crusade.
Modern times

Thomas Paine
The 18th-century Anglo-American philosopher Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the Word of God."[10]
Walter L. Williams

American anthropologist Walter L. Williams has written a revision of the story of Jesus which presents "God as Satan, the evil doer rejected by Jesus in the New Testament confrontation during Jesus' retreat in the desert."[12] In the Old Testament, God offers all of Canaan to Abraham if he will worship God. Genesis 17:8 "I will give the entire land of Canaan, where you now live as a foreigner, to you and your descendants. It will be their possession forever, and I will be their God.” In the New Testament, Satan offers all the kingdoms on earth to Jesus if he will worship Satan. Luke 4:6-7 “I will give you the glory of these kingdoms and authority over them,” the devil said, “because they are mine to give to anyone I please. I will give it all to you if you will worship me.”

[One Above All]

We all know that God is apparently allergic to iron chariots, right? Well, check out this Wikipedia article.

Here's the short version: It seems that in virtually every culture, iron is seen as something that repels evil, or at least something that came from the gods. So, once again, I posit that the god of the Bible is, in fact, the Devil/Satan.

[jaimehlers]

It's interesting to see the idea of God being evil is nothing new.

[Nick]

It would explain a lot.

[pingnak]

In many 'primitive' cultures, the evil gods are worshipped, because ONLY the evil gods DEMAND it.  If they don't worship the evil gods, plagues, droughts, crop failures, etc. will happen.  Terrible misfortunes!

The good gods are above such petty bullshit.  They're, you know, GOOD.

Just like certain Christians claim America isn't full of holy enough rollers, so that's why there are disasters and attacks, and it has nothing to do at all with the horrific things we do, and terrible regimes we support for petroleum, so drive your SUV in peace.

Of course, in their conversion to Christianity, it is imaginable that for many native people, in the Christians (especially conquistadors) they discovered a much darker, eviler god than any they ever had to worship before, so got right down to worshiping it.

Not that I believe any such crap, but we could posit that there is a 'good' God/Jesus that actually died on the cross, washed away everyone's 'sin' with his sacrifice (however that worked), and everyone is 'saved', no matter what.  Yay good god!

There is also the dark, EVIL, vain, vindictive 'God/Jesus' that demands absolute, unquestioning fealty, constant worship, bloody crusades against heretics, etc., or he will smite the nation with destruction and plagues, and cast everyone into hell, etc., etc., etc.

And there are all kinds of Jesuses and gods in between.

Though in the Bible, satan basically did whatever his god told him to, throughout the OT.  He acted under god's orders, doing QA on the faithful, testing them even to destruction, etc.  There isn't any way an 'omniscient' god wouldn't know what one of his minions was up to.  We see this in the book of job, in eden, in jesus' temptation, throughout the bible.  Satan does god's dirty jobs, working FOR god the whole time, and is ultimately made into a villain in the new testament, predicted to be made a fall guy for all of his loyal work, as was the angel of death, and 'hades', which is odd, since hades seems both a place and a person interchangeably, according to the passage, and separate from 'hell', though a place of torment, according to Luke 16.

Naturally, different flavors of Christians describe hades differently, and different translations change it around, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades_in_Christianity

Satan in the bible...
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Satan&qs_version=NIV

Hades in the bible...
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=hades&qs_version=NIV

[Nicholis2]

Depends on your definition of proof... there are stacks of stories and passionately held beliefs going back to the dawn of mankind... people have founded nations and cultures on them, made and given away fortunes, sacrificed themselves and billions of others simply because they felt there was more than enough 'evidence' for them. I guess there is less evidence for extra terrestrial life. less evidence for love, less evidence for saving for a rainy day, that insurance pays and weigh less evidence that there ever has been or ever will be justice or fair play on this planet... yet somehow we all crave them, make laws to support them, fight for them, give our lives over for them.

Ask a bereaved person at the graveside... if there is an afterlife... and I guarantee they will say "I hope so". There may be no justice in this world... but we hope there will be in the next.

[velkyn]

Depends on your definition of proof... there are stacks of stories and passionately held beliefs going back to the dawn of mankind... people have founded nations and cultures on them, made and given away fortunes, sacrificed themselves and billions of others simply because they felt there was more than enough 'evidence' for them. I guess there is less evidence for extra terrestrial life. less evidence for love, less evidence for saving for a rainy day, that insurance pays and weigh less evidence that there ever has been or ever will be justice or fair play on this planet... yet somehow we all crave them, make laws to support them, fight for them, give our lives over for them.

Ask a bereaved person at the graveside... if there is an afterlife... and I guarantee they will say "I hope so". There may be no justice in this world... but we hope there will be in the next.

I can guarantee that they will say "I hope so" and they will be sure that they, and their loved ones, will only get the "good" version.  Pascal's wager in its finest form.

[One Above All]

Depends on your definition of proof...

You made a mistake right there. I did not say "proof". I said "evidence".
From my understanding, evidence points in the general direction of something. Proof is absolute confirmation.

[riley2112]

We all know that God is apparently allergic to iron chariots, right? Well, check out this Wikipedia article.

Here's the short version: It seems that in virtually every culture, iron is seen as something that repels evil, or at least something that came from the gods. So, once again, I posit that the god of the Bible is, in fact, the Devil/Satan.

If in fact you are right. Are you saying that you believe there is a Satan? Please understand I am just wanting to clarify what you are trying to say here.

[One Above All]

If in fact you are right. Are you saying that you believe there is a Satan? Please understand I am just wanting to clarify what you are trying to say here.

I am saying this in the same way that I say that before I had finished watching the first Matrix movie, I had seen ample evidence that Neo was The One.

[Avatar Of Belial]

If in fact you are right. Are you saying that you believe there is a Satan? Please understand I am just wanting to clarify what you are trying to say here.

You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'.

[songpak3000]

It would seem to think that in fact it is implying that both God and Satan are the same here.  However, if you look through the context of the whole Bible, even in the Book of John for example, Jesus was accused of being a Son of the Devil for performing acts such as casting out Demons.  We know that if you look at the scripture in 1 Chronicles 21:1, it says Satan rose up and incited David to take census of Israel.  Here, the primary instigator in all this is Satan, but God allowing it to happen.  In the Book of Job ch.1, we see that God calls Job a righteous and noble man in all the earth.  Satan wants to attack Job telling God that Job would denounce God and blaspheme Him if Satan were allowed to take away all the blessings, riches, and comforts that Job was enjoying.  For surely if Job had those blessings taken away, he would curse God and sin against Him.  In 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1, there seems to be contraditions but if we look at the character and nature of God as a whole throughout the Bible, surely we know there is God and then on the opposite end of the spectrum, Lucifer, who actually is a fallen angel.  So there are 2 different characters here.  When David sinned against God, He out of his free will just like Adam and Eve sinned.  Satan offered the choice to sin, and man took the choice.  And so, here the "Anger of the Lord burns" for David choosing already to sin and obey Satan's deceit, and therefore God ALLOWS this sin to take place.  It is beneficial to study the whole Bible put these 2 seemingly Scriptures into it's right and meaningful context.  Blessings.

[One Above All]

First of all, if we look at the Bible, YHWH most certainly is Satan. He kills 20000x more people than Satan.
Second of all, Lucifer is not Satan.

[Avatar Of Belial]

In the Book of Job ch.1, we see that God calls Job a righteous and noble man in all the earth.  Satan wants to attack Job telling God that Job would denounce God and blaspheme Him if Satan were allowed to take away all the blessings, riches, and comforts that Job was enjoying.

So God/Satan has multiple personality disorder?

[velkyn]

It would seem to think that in fact it is implying that both God and Satan are the same here.  However, if you look through the context of the whole Bible, even in the Book of John for example, Jesus was accused of being a Son of the Devil for performing acts such as casting out Demons. 

We know that if you look at the scripture in 1 Chronicles 21:1, it says Satan rose up and incited David to take census of Israel.  Here, the primary instigator in all this is Satan, but God allowing it to happen.

2 Samuel 24
1 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”
 2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”
 3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”
 4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.
 8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
 9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
 10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

1 Chronicles 21
1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the troops, “Go and count the Israelites from Beersheba to Dan. Then report back to me so that I may know how many there are.”
 3 But Joab replied, “May the LORD multiply his troops a hundred times over. My lord the king, are they not all my lord’s subjects? Why does my lord want to do this? Why should he bring guilt on Israel?”
 4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab; so Joab left and went throughout Israel and then came back to Jerusalem. 5 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah.
 6 But Joab did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, because the king’s command was repulsive to him. 7 This command was also evil in the sight of God; so he punished Israel.
 8 Then David said to God, “I have sinned greatly by doing this. Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

In the Book of Job ch.1, we see that God calls Job a righteous and noble man in all the earth.  Satan wants to attack Job telling God that Job would denounce God and blaspheme Him if Satan were allowed to take away all the blessings, riches, and comforts that Job was enjoying.  For surely if Job had those blessings taken away, he would curse God and sin against Him.

and we see here God evidently baiting satan and allowing good people to be murdered.  Hmmm, does that make him an accessory? You bet it does.  Screwing around with lifes, just for a bet.  How nice.

In 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1, there seems to be contraditions but if we look at the character and nature of God as a whole throughout the Bible, surely we know there is God and then on the opposite end of the spectrum, Lucifer, who actually is a fallen angel.  So there are 2 different characters here.  When David sinned against God, He out of his free will just like Adam and Eve sinned.  Satan offered the choice to sin, and man took the choice.  And so, here the "Anger of the Lord burns" for David choosing already to sin and obey Satan's deceit, and therefore God ALLOWS this sin to take place.  It is beneficial to study the whole Bible put these 2 seemingly Scriptures into it's right and meaningful context.  Blessings.

Ah, the old “right and meaningful context”  that even Christians don’t agree on.  It is amusing to see that your god again decides to punish people for the crimes of one.  How wonderfully “fair” and “just” this is.  It also shows how the “free will” that so many Christians prate on about isn’t supported at all.  We have a god killing people for no fault of their own.  It’s also with your supposed “correct” interpretation, that God and Satan are often in cahoots.  Leads really nicely up to that last bit in Revelation where God simply *must* release Satan, after killing all evil people and after allowing JC to reign on earth.  I guess this god needs a little more corruption and death to sate its bloody hunger.

[composer]

It would seem to think that in fact it is implying that both God and Satan are the same here.  However, if you look through the context of the whole Bible, even in the Book of John for example, Jesus was accused of being a Son of the Devil for performing acts such as casting out Demons.  We know that if you look at the scripture in 1 Chronicles 21:1, it says Satan rose up and incited David to take census of Israel.  Here, the primary instigator in all this is Satan, but God allowing it to happen.  In the Book of Job ch.1, we see that God calls Job a righteous and noble man in all the earth.  Satan wants to attack Job telling God that Job would denounce God and blaspheme Him if Satan were allowed to take away all the blessings, riches, and comforts that Job was enjoying.  For surely if Job had those blessings taken away, he would curse God and sin against Him.  In 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1, there seems to be contraditions but if we look at the character and nature of God as a whole throughout the Bible, surely we know there is God and then on the opposite end of the spectrum, Lucifer, who actually is a fallen angel.  So there are 2 different characters here.  When David sinned against God, He out of his free will just like Adam and Eve sinned.  Satan offered the choice to sin, and man took the choice.  And so, here the "Anger of the Lord burns" for David choosing already to sin and obey Satan's deceit, and therefore God ALLOWS this sin to take place.  It is beneficial to study the whole Bible put these 2 seemingly Scriptures into it's right and meaningful context.  Blessings.

Two bible versions I have (YLT & EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT) make NO mention of any term Satan in their text so to them Satan doesn't exist!

[composer]

As the Story book biblical god takes credit for ' creating absolutely everything ' i.e. -   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Col. 1:16-17) KJV Story book

Therefore nothing else can also ' create these things ', accordingly, ALL Evil is created, permitted  and maintained by Story book god; whilst so called christians & others try to blame something else like their imaginary Satan the alleged naughty fallen heavenly angel spirit-being. LOL!

[Devils Advocate]

Satan always seems to get a bad rap. The evidence shows that his alleged actions were either coerced or the result of entrapment. Some people like to call it "temptation" when Satan encourages them to do what they really want to do, but the written Word makes clear that it was YHWH that suggested the test of Job, and if the Man in Charge really did not want his creations to sample the tree of life, then why did he plant it in the garden where they lived?

[Historicity]

Szandor La Vey wrote his Satanic Bible which is rarely good writing.  I mean holy scriptures as a form of literature are stylistically to be poetry or at least free verse poetry:  Theogony, Koran, Vedas, Bible, Eddas, Tao Te Ching.  Most of his book are dull expository writing.  I was expecting some real, tingly, horror film turn on but it was largely a yawner.  At least it was short.

In one of the well written parts he declares that Satan is God and "evil" is the eternal sea of chaos from which all opportunities arise.  Only the boldest and most brilliant can ride these seas and pluck the opportunities.  But Satan is a merciful God.  He knows that a vast part of humanity is too timid, submissive and fearful to do that.  For people who like to be meek, Satan has invented such fake religions as Christianity and Buddhism.

BTW, La Vey openly credited Ayn Rand as a principal inspiration for his religion.

[jeremy0]

It's as simple as this - if God created everything, and scripts everything, then he also created evil as well as all the torture and death that people go through in life.

To get it straight - here's how it went:
1.  People felt pain when a loved one died.  So they imagined heaven as a better place where they went.  Every ancient society has a notion of it.  Enter heaven - a fantastical place where everything you ever wanted is given to you. 
2.  People wanted to control the actions of others.  At the time, the best way was by fear.  Enter hell. What's more to fear than the worst of your imagination?
3.  Recent religions want two things - money and power.  Ever since the middle ages.  Enter modern religion - encompassing both notions of heaven and hell, you sure as shit will do as i say if you want these things, and you sure as shit will do what i tell you not to if you don't want to suffer.  Fear, hope - two powerful emotions to control people and get people to make you wealthy and powerful.

Want proof of this control?  Iran was able to get children to run through a mine field to clear the way for tanks.  In it, they were supposed to be sent to heaven and become mortars and be surrounded by numerous frolicking virgins.  years later, the leader of this religious coup stated 'absolute control with promise of mortars'..

To get back to the actual topic of the post, logic tells you that if heaven and hell exist, and god rules both, only satan is there to perform the merciless killings, then satan serves god as opposed to god being satan, which means that god is also on satan's side, which makes god affectively no different from satan himself...

This is how screwed up religion is.

[Graybeard]

The theology behind this is boringly simple. God has created everything – this makes Him the Supreme Being – inanimate, immortal and mortal things were all made by Him, other gods were made by Him.

God created evil:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Jer:18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

However, all is not lost:

Lamentations:2:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

So we see that God does everything, even the bad bits. So what is Satan’s role in the scheme of things?

Well he seems to take the rap when men go bad (unless God did this) or when misfortune is caused by disobedience.

Yet this role is not complete. There is no clear division of responsibility between God and The Devil.

Why might this be? Well, apart from Job and the Temptation of Christ, both of which are old-folk-tales and do not reflect any possible history, Satan, as a character, takes but a very small part in the Bible. Most of the references simply suggest that it is Satan who is going to do bad things to sinners but there is absolutely nothing to show that this might be so, as nowhere does Satan come along and admit to any of this.

Middle Eastern culture was quite keen on fictitious folk-heroes whose deeds were comprised of an amalgam of earlier stories and invented ones mixed in with some history. As God is the embodiment of all justice (not necessarily love, kindness and compassion) and Christ is the embodiment of a newer form of philosophy – Judaism-Lite - so Satan is the embodiment of man’s disobedience towards, or rebellion against, God but, more than that, he’s the one who will do bad things to you… unless it is God doing it.

It is a difficulty - If you are seriously ill, was it God or Satan who did it? The majority of opinion would be that it is God, for Satan seems to be more in charge of temptation and disobedience, who once he has succeeded, turns a file over to God Who then smites you with a great smitance.

Who is Satan?
Satan means “opponent, adversary”

From Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries:
?â?ân
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.

?â?an
saw-tan'
H7853 A primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse: - (be an) adversary, resist.

The Devil
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.

This can be seen in the old Iranian accusation that the US is "the Great Satan" and the UK is "the Little Satan"

The point is that basically, Satan/the Devil is basically anyone who opposes (i.e. usually opposes God.)

Whereas, if you look at devils in general, you have:
G1140

daimonion
dahee-mon'-ee-on
Neuter of a derivative of G1142; a daemonic being; by extension a deity: - devil, god.

G1142

daim?n
dah'ee-mown
From dai? (to distribute fortunes); a demon or super natural spirit (of a bad nature): - devil.

[jeremy0]

That's still case-in-point, if satan is god's adversary, we all agree that we are to overcome satan; but then so many believe that we are then sent to satan to suffer eternally...

It's just another contradiction in the bible.  Why, when God created satan just to tell us we must overcome it, and nobody completely does, that somehow through his mercy we are all saved, and at the same time others are eternally dammed for being disobedient, which we were all made out to be ever since eating the fruit of the tree?

So how do you sort out who is actually going to hell and who will go to heaven?  If you were a good person, you would say everybody would theoretically go to heaven... but then why the tale of hell and suffering?  Wasn't it all just to demonstrate to us an evil diety that is an adversary of God, who we are all supposed to recognize and repent against, and yet, somehow, millions of the population will be sent to satan even though we are all granted forgiveness of all sin and mercy?

The story has either been seriously damaged or fitted, or it is in complete contradiction of itself from the start.