Author Topic: Test or No Test?  (Read 1514 times)

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Offline ungod

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Test or No Test?
« on: November 14, 2011, 08:06:13 AM »
Theologues love to admonish with the "God is not to be tested" script -
Quote
Matthew 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

But, wait a minute, "God's WORD" also says

Quote
Test everything. Hold on to the good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

What's a poor confused Babble reader to do?  :-\
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 08:07:25 AM »
"God is not bound by his law."
Translation: God has double standards[1].
 1. A negative quality.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Historicity

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 08:16:30 AM »
What's a poor confused Babble reader to do?  :-\

And now you've hit on the premise of Catholicism/Orthodoxy/Rabbinical Judaism:  Trust the magisterium.  God put them over you so they can talk down to you.



Offline Samuelxcs

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 08:23:07 AM »
God has many negative qualities. God made a law but is not bound by it. God is apparently not supposed to be tested, as stated by Jesus, but then Thessalonians 5:21 says test everything, they should not keep changing their minds.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2011, 08:32:51 AM »
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Do not treat prophecies with contempt, but test them all; hold on to what is good.

Is talking about takeing prophecies from other religion to try and prove them wrong but if they cant to keep them for them selfs. It has nothing to do with Testing GoD

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Offline plethora

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2011, 08:52:53 AM »
Minute 1:54 ... "Now Bruce, thou shalt not tempt the Lord ... "

If only he would actually do the 7-finger trick to us there would be no atheists :D

The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline ungod

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2011, 09:03:14 AM »
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Do not treat prophecies with contempt, but test them all; hold on to what is good.

Is talking about takeing prophecies from other religion to try and prove them wrong but if they cant to keep them for them selfs. It has nothing to do with Testing GoD

Oh, so now you're saying prophecy does NOT come from God?

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2011, 09:57:08 AM »
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Do not treat prophecies with contempt, but test them all; hold on to what is good.

Is talking about takeing prophecies from other religion to try and prove them wrong but if they cant to keep them for them selfs. It has nothing to do with Testing GoD

Oh, so now you're saying prophecy does NOT come from God?

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I don’t think that it did, I think it came from the people who were tired of being oppressed.  I think that is was a challenging time and they were struggling to maintain their religion, so they adopted other into it. I believe that this talks about taking only the good stuff and leaving out the bad. When was the last time you read a New York times best seller from GoD or at the very least seen one other then the bible.   :D
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2011, 11:19:37 AM »
Interesting question Ungod. I wondered why Jesus would have evoked that quote in the first place as the context of where it was originally written in Deut. 6 didn't seem to imply that testing God to see if God could prove Himself a thing NOT to be done. In the Hebrew scriptures, God's prophets actually plead with the people on various occasion to test God so that God can show and prove. An example is Malachi 3:10 which reads: Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the LORD of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows. The text of Deuteronomy 6 below

 
Quote
10 'And when Jehovah your God brings you into the land that He promised to your ancestors AbraHam, IsaAc, and Jacob – that He would give you great and beautiful cities that you won't build, 11 houses that are full of all sorts of good things that you won't put there, wells dug in rock that you won't dig, vineyards and olive groves that you won't plant, and where you will eat and be filled – 12 you must be careful not to forget Jehovah your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and out of the house of slavery. 13 So, you must fear Jehovah your God and serve only Him! You must stick to Him and swear by His Name.

14 'Don't follow other gods, such as the gods of the nations around you, 15 for Jehovah your God (who is among you) is a zealous God. Otherwise, Jehovah your God will be very angry with you and [He will] destroy you from the face of the earth.

16 'You must not test Jehovah your God as you tested Him in the [desert].

Note* This verse is a reference to an event described in Exodus 17:1-7 where the people of Israel, afraid of suffering from thirst due to a lack of water where they were, began complaining and doubting God despite supposedly having already been miraculously freed from Egypt, seeing Him part the Red Sea, and actually hearing Him speak from a smoking mountain.
1 Then the entire gathering of the children of IsraEl left the Sin Desert, following the order of their camps, and the Lord told them to camp in RaphiDin. However, there was no water for the people to drink, 2 so they started shouting at Moses and saying, 'Give us water to drink!'
And Moses asked them, 'Why are you shouting at me, and why are you asking Jehovah to prove Himself?
3 Well, the people were very thirsty there, and they complained again to Moses, saying, 'What's the point? Did you bring us up out of Egypt to kill our children, our cattle, and us with thirst?'
4 Then Moses called to Jehovah, and said, 'What should I do with these people? Why, before long they'll stone me!'
5 And Jehovah replied to Moses, 'Go before the people and bring along some of their elders. Then take the walking stick that you slapped the [Nile] river with into your hand, and go 6 to the rock in the dry place (Horeb). And look! I'll be standing there before you! [Then you must] hit the rock, and water will pour from it, and the people will [have something to] drink.'
So, Moses went before the Sons of IsraEl. 7 And he named that place Proof and Shouting(Massah, and Meribah), because of all the shouting of the children of IsraEl, and because they wanted Jehovah to prove Himself when they asked, 'Is Jehovah among us or not?'

17 You must absolutely keep all the Commandments, decisions, and rules that He gave you. 18 And you must do everything that is pleasing and good before Jehovah, so that things may go well for you, and so that you may enter and inherit the good land that Jehovah promised to your ancestors… 19 where He promised to chase away all your enemies before you.

and the text here in Luke 4 and Matthew 4 that Jesus uses, seem unrelated.

Quote
9 Then [the Slanderer] took him into JeruSalem and put him on a high battle tower of the Temple, and said, 'If you're a son of God, jump down from here, 10 because it's written:
He'll order His messengers to protect you,
11 And they'll lift you up on their hands,
So you won't bump your foot on a stone.'

12 But Jesus replied, 'It is said, You shouldn't put Jehovah your God to the test.'

13 So after the Slanderer finished his tempting, he went away until the designated time.

Nowhere, that I am aware of was it written that God's promises should not be put to the test. The text of Deuteronomy instead seems to indicate that it is unwise to test God's patience because pissing Him off could result in disaster as is said to have been the case in the Torah for the Israelites that were forced to be nomads in the desert for a generation after leaving Egypt.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2011, 12:28:32 PM »
IMO, JC's claim that one should not test god is pretty much the same any charlatan would say to keep people from finding out that he can't do magic on command.  It's rather like the Great and Powerful Oz. 
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2011, 12:48:47 PM »
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Do not treat prophecies with contempt, but test them all; hold on to what is good.

Is talking about takeing prophecies from other religion to try and prove them wrong but if they cant to keep them for them selfs. It has nothing to do with Testing GoD
It has nothing to do with prophecies from other religions. Paul makes no mention of other religions. However, Unfortunately, in the passage, Paul is advising against taking prophesies (general preaching) at the speaker's word. It has nothing to do with testing God

NIV
1:Thess:5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt
21 but test them all; hold on to what is good,
22 reject every kind of evil.


KJV1611
1:Thess:5:19Quench not the Spirit.
20Despise not prophesyings.
21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22Abstain from all appearance of evil.

(Prove here is used in the sense of testing, as in "proof alcohol" or "proofing a gun barrel"

It concerns the testing of prophecies; though how exactly you do that is a Godly Mystery...
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2011, 01:27:41 PM »
Paul was talking to the church at the time he wrote this, the verse was told to test all prophecies, because many were converting to other religions because of pressure from the Romans. It is also goes with 1 John 4:1-3. It was to save the purity of the christian religion that's all it was for. It was know that when they started to run out of parchment they would shorten the sentences so ya he does not mention other religion, but with the Romans moving around it is obvious during that time what he was talking about, not so much in this day and age because people tend to take this crap for what it means and not know any of the history of the writing. 
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2011, 01:40:58 PM »
[...]It was know that when they started to run out of parchment they would shorten the sentences
This is so stupid an apology that it makes me think that you must have had a head injury. The Bible speaks many times on false prophets. Paul's message is clear. He asks his fellow Christians to test what other Christians said.
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so ya he does not mention other religion, but with the Romans moving around it is obvious during that time what he was talking about,
No. It is not at all obvious. You may think that there were other gods involved, but you have no proof whatsoever. You are just making things up. Basically you are telling lies to support Christianity.
Quote
not so much in this day and age because people tend to take this crap for what it means and not know any of the history of the writing.
As there are no original documents (http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=91#_Toc439066004) and as Paul is believed to be, at best, the author of only seven of the Pauline EpistlesWiki, and, as there is scant proof that Paul was actually a real person, then as you say, we do " not know any of the history of the writing. "
By and large the Romans saw Christians of that time as harmless idiots - much as we do today.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 01:49:35 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2011, 01:55:11 PM »
This is so stupid an apology that it makes me think that you must have had a head injury. The Bible speaks many times on false prophets. Paul's message is clear. He asks his fellow Christians to test what other Christians said.

OK, Even if this was so, why would he want to test other Christians? could it be because of an influence that was not christian religion.

No. It is not at all obvious. You may think that there were other gods involved, but you have no proof whatsoever. You are just making things up. Basically you are telling lies to support Christianity. 


No were did I say GoDs, I said religion and I am not supporting Christianity, I was stating the fact that there were other religion in the area that they were afraid would take reign over Christianity!!!

As there are no original documents (http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=91#_Toc439066004) and as Paul is believed to be, at best, the author of only seven of the Pauline EpistlesWiki, and, as there is scant proof that Paul was actually a real person, then as you say, we do " not know any of the history of the writing. "
By and large the Romans saw Christians of that time as harmless idiots - much as we do today.


Show proof that any one that wrote any of the scrolls, scripts or any of the writing in the babble was the true author. Paul is the most common with it so I use his name. I was talking about this historical events that cause the writers to write what they wrote. 

Quote
not so much in this day and age because people tend to take this crap for what it means and not know any of the history of the writing.

I was talking about the people who do not take the time to actually learn about their religion. The people who just follow it because it sounds good. 
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2011, 03:26:31 PM »
This is so stupid an apology that it makes me think that you must have had a head injury. The Bible speaks many times on false prophets. Paul's message is clear. He asks his fellow Christians to test what other Christians said.

OK, Even if this was so, why would he want to test other Christians? could it be because of an influence that was not christian religion. 

If one recalls, according to Jesus, during the mid first century believers were to be on the lookout for false prophets that would "attempt to deceive even the elect" by virtual of miraculous or quasi-miraculous signs. Apparantly the test involved being able to confirm one's message via miraculous means while upholding the belief that Jesus of Narareth was the Christ that had "come in the flesh." 
Testing the spirits and well as the messengers seemed to be defense mechanisms that the elect were to employ to insure that they were not led astray. Remember also that according to the scriptures, these elect individuals were "sealed" with God's Holy Spirit and often able to employ that which was bestowed upon them through said spirit to assist in their discernment and testing.

Offline ungod

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 02:19:11 PM »
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Do not treat prophecies with contempt, but test them all; hold on to what is good.

Is talking about takeing prophecies from other religion to try and prove them wrong but if they cant to keep them for them selfs. It has nothing to do with Testing GoD
Don't these "other religions" claim their "prophecies" are from THE SAME GOD?

 :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2011, 02:33:59 PM »
It is also goes with 1 John 4:1-3. It was to save the purity of the christian religion that's all it was for.


There was no purity of the xian religion because there was no xian religion when John was written.  There were scores of proto-xian sects, some were mostly jewish, others were cmopletely non-jewish. Many of them had their own favorite gospels around which their sect was based. Or vise versa.  The gospel was tailor made to suit the hocus pocus of their particular cult.   That is why there are non-canonical gospels floating around - thomas, judas, mary mag, etc.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2011, 02:35:48 PM »
To test or not to test... that is the question.
And the answer is "Don't test, lest you prove our myth wrong."
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Babdah

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2011, 08:21:01 PM »
Can I test Zeus, he is throwing lighting bolts all around here tonight....
“We live in an age disturbed, confused, bewildered, afraid of its own forces, in search not merely of its road but even of its direction

Offline dloubet

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2011, 01:40:57 PM »
Is not every intercessory prayer a test? The god is tested by it's followers billions of times a day, poor bastard.
Denis Loubet

Offline ungod

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2011, 03:06:47 PM »
Can I test Zeus, he is throwing lighting bolts all around here tonight....

Quote
MONROE, Ohio — A six-story statue of Jesus Christ was struck by lightning and burned to the ground, leaving only a blackened steel skeleton and pieces of foam that were scooped up by curious onlookers Tuesday.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37703784/ns/us_news-weird_news/t/-story-jesus-statue-ohio-struck-lightning/

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Test or No Test?
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2011, 10:32:54 AM »
Is not every intercessory prayer a test? The god is tested by it's followers billions of times a day, poor bastard.

QFT.   It's always amusing on how they all seem to want to ignore that.
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