Author Topic: Omnipotence VS Free Will  (Read 1056 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Omnipotence VS Free Will
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2011, 03:12:17 PM »
and the little boy??

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Offline riley2112

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Re: Omnipotence VS Free Will
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2011, 03:29:05 PM »
Has anyone given thought to the point of: is an all powerful being or God for lack of a better word, subject to his own laws? Just wondering what your thoughts would be on this.
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Offline Roq

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Re: Omnipotence VS Free Will
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2011, 03:32:47 PM »
<snip>

So the choices themselves are limited, but you can choose from any one of them?
[/quote]

Not sure what you're getting at here.

If you were to enumerate our choices, then they must correspond to the totality of universes that given the particular state of knowledge we have now are possible candidates for being the universe we actually are in (that's a very deterministic formulation). The number of possible universes that would satisfy this condition is infinite. Our choices are surely most circumscribed by our cultural programming, which is a very narrow path through a much wider possibility space.         

Offline One Above All

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Re: Omnipotence VS Free Will
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2011, 03:38:08 PM »
Has anyone given thought to the point of: is an all powerful being or God for lack of a better word, subject to his own laws? Just wondering what your thoughts would be on this.

If you're referring to laws of morality then:
An omnipotent and omniscient being? No.
An omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent being? Yes.
The first could be a hypocrite, the second wouldn't be a hypocrite because it's good.

If you're referring to physical laws, then no. Omnipotence overrides everything.

Not sure what you're getting at here.

Like in your example: You are presented with A and B. There are no other options, but you can choose between the ones that are available.

If you were to enumerate our choices, then they must correspond to the totality of universes that given the particular state of knowledge we have now are possible candidates for being the universe we actually are in (that's a very deterministic formulation). The number of possible universes that would satisfy this condition is infinite. Our choices are surely most circumscribed by our cultural programming, which is a very narrow path through a much wider possibility space.         

This assumes parallel universes. Still, after a short deliberation, I concluded that the number of actions and the number of ways in which you can perform said actions are limited; therefore the number of parallel universes that would result from this is also limited, though it would be bigger than the number of particles in this universe.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 03:58:12 PM by Lucifer »
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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Omnipotence VS Free Will
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2011, 04:15:39 PM »
onesteward:
Quote
I was under the impression that it was Judah who had problems with 'iron chariots' not so much God. Judges 1:19 

The Lord was with Judah, and [Judah] drove out the inhabitants of the hill country, but he could not drive out those inhabiting the [difficult] valley basin because they had chariots of iron.

The intended subject of drove is irrelevant; even if we accept that it refers to Judah, it still implies a restriction on God's powers, because God was 'with' Judah during the battle - yet Judah did not prevail.

Some translations of the Bible acknowledge this by pluralizing the subject e.g. the NIV:

The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron 

(Off-topic, but I don't understand what Judah is doing in Judges. He was one of the sons of Jacob; it was he who suggested selling Joseph into slavery, and then followed him to Egypt with Jacob and the rest of the Israelites.

So he apparently outlived his brother Joseph, waited for Moses to be born, grow up and lead the Exodus, and then survived 40 years in the wilderness, and then served under Joshua during the entry into the Promised Land, and then took over after Joshua's death - the beginning of Judges.

This in spite of the fact that Exodus 1 clearly states that Joseph and all his brothers died before the birth of Moses:

1 These are the names of the sons of Israel who went to Egypt with Jacob, each with his family: 2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi and Judah; 3 Issachar, Zebulun and Benjamin; 4 Dan and Naphtali; Gad and Asher. 5 The descendants of Jacob numbered seventy[a] in all; Joseph was already in Egypt.
 6 Now Joseph and all his brothers and all that generation died, 7 but the Israelites were exceedingly fruitful; they multiplied greatly, increased in numbers and became so numerous that the land was filled with them.


And in spite of the fact that God specifically said that all the adult Israelis would die in the forty years in the wilderness, except for Joshua and Caleb. Numbers 14:

28 So tell them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the LORD, I will do to you the very thing I heard you say: 29 In this wilderness your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. 30 Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.

So, what is Judah doing in Judges, after the death of Joshua?).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 06:12:26 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Roq

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Re: Omnipotence VS Free Will
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2011, 05:32:41 PM »
This assumes parallel universes. Still, after a short deliberation, I concluded that the number of actions and the number of ways in which you can perform said actions are limited; therefore the number of parallel universes that would result from this is also limited, though it would be bigger than the number of particles in this universe.

Actually, it doesn't assume actual parallel universes, only that the future evolution of the universe we are actually in is unknowable and so might be in any one of innumerable possible universes.

If there was an omniscient deity in the universe then the situation would not be different from our own point of view, since our own perspective would still be limited. But it would be different from the point of view of that deity, because the deity would have a perspective that could exactly define the exact detail of the particular universe that we were in. So from it's point of view our actions would be unalterable and our choices would be an illusion.   

       

Offline One Above All

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Re: Omnipotence VS Free Will
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2011, 05:42:48 PM »
Actually, it doesn't assume actual parallel universes, only that the future evolution of the universe we are actually in is unknowable and so might be in any one of innumerable possible universes.

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

If there was an omniscient deity in the universe then the situation would not be different from our own point of view, since our own perspective would still be limited. But it would be different from the point of view of that deity, because the deity would have a perspective that could exactly define the exact detail of the particular universe that we were in. So from it's point of view our actions would be unalterable and our choices would be an illusion.   

Agreed.

You know what the problem with these theoretical discussions is? They assume things that are impossible (deities) and go from there, but because these assumptions are impossible, we can't actually come to a relevant conclusion.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Omnipotence VS Free Will
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2011, 03:55:01 PM »
From what I can determine, the universe is neither completely deterministic nor completely random. Instead, the universe appears to be mechanical, but the mechanism can accommodate random input such as atomic decay and other capital "R" Random events. One way to characterize it would be to say the universe would be deterministic if not for all those random events that occur.

This does not provide free will, of course. Being slave to a dice roll no more free than being slave to the previous state that forced the current state. And a mixture of the two is no guarantee that some sort of magical free will should emerge.

What it does mean, however, is that the future is not determined, and this suggests that our choices can actually make a difference. We are robots marching into an open future.

I have no idea how this relates to the concept of omnipotence, as I have no clear idea what that word means.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 03:57:45 PM by dloubet »
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Omnipotence VS Free Will
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2011, 03:55:10 PM »
onesteward:
Quote
I was under the impression that it was Judah who had problems with 'iron chariots' not so much God. Judges 1:19 

The Lord was with Judah, and [Judah] drove out the inhabitants of the hill country, but he could not drive out those inhabiting the [difficult] valley basin because they had chariots of iron.

The intended subject of drove is irrelevant; even if we accept that it refers to Judah, it still implies a restriction on God's powers, because God was 'with' Judah during the battle - yet Judah did not prevail.

 I don't see that God   "with us" is a guarantee of sucess , at least immediate success, in our every endeaver.The point here is that God wasn't thwarted by 'iron chariots', Judah was.



Some translations of the Bible acknowledge this by pluralizing the subject e.g. the NIV:

The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron 

(Off-topic, but I don't understand what Judah is doing in Judges. He was one of the sons of Jacob; it was he who suggested selling Joseph into slavery, and then followed him to Egypt with Jacob and the rest of the Israelites.

So he apparently outlived his brother Joseph, waited for Moses to be born, grow up and lead the Exodus, and then survived 40 years in the wilderness, and then served under Joshua during the entry into the Promised Land, and then took over after Joshua's death - the beginning of Judges.

This in spite of the fact that Exodus 1 clearly states that Joseph and all his brothers died before the birth of Moses:

1 These are the names of the sons of Israel who went to Egypt with Jacob, each with his family: 2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi and Judah; 3 Issachar, Zebulun and Benjamin; 4 Dan and Naphtali; Gad and Asher. 5 The descendants of Jacob numbered seventy[a] in all; Joseph was already in Egypt.
 6 Now Joseph and all his brothers and all that generation died, 7 but the Israelites were exceedingly fruitful; they multiplied greatly, increased in numbers and became so numerous that the land was filled with them.


And in spite of the fact that God specifically said that all the adult Israelis would die in the forty years in the wilderness, except for Joshua and Caleb. Numbers 14:

28 So tell them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the LORD, I will do to you the very thing I heard you say: 29 In this wilderness your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. 30 Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.

So, what is Judah doing in Judges, after the death of Joshua?).

My take on it would be that Judah is referring to the Tribe of Judah.
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when sorrows like sea billows roll;
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