Author Topic: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?  (Read 7144 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2011, 04:55:30 PM »
If God existed, that means God created the universe, which means everyone would love him.

Uh... That's a chain non sequitur, FD.  A god could exist, yet not be the creator of the universe... And I really don't know how you got "everyone would love him" out of that, either.

Again, playing the game from the OP, the Christian God is a creator. 

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3363
  • Darwins +382/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2011, 04:57:00 PM »
Again, playing the game from the OP, the Christian God is a creator.

Fair enough, but there's no automatic and universal love of a creator.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2011, 05:00:25 PM »
Again, playing the game from the OP, the Christian God is a creator.

Fair enough, but there's no automatic and universal love of a creator.

Well, we both are speculating here.  I think a god that wanted worshipers would make us love it.  We would be designed to love it.

Offline Omen

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5955
  • Darwins +107/-15
  • One of the fucking bad guys; not friendly, tiger!
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2011, 05:02:57 PM »
Eloi, didn't really expect everyone to address your what if question as if your god was a deranged sociopath did you?

Not getting the scripted response you want out the conversation are you?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3363
  • Darwins +382/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2011, 05:10:27 PM »
Well, we both are speculating here.  I think a god that wanted worshipers would make us love it.  We would be designed to love it.

Interesting thought, but what would be the value of such "love" to the god?  Would it not be simpler just to remain in one's celestial paradise, not create any universes or little blue planets, and set up some automatic praise-dispensing mechanism?

We're crossing into that nebulous topic "God X gave us free will so that we, ourselves could choose to do {whatever it is God X wanted us to do in the first place}."  This puzzle has a lot of relevance to the OP, which asks in effect if we would buy a predesigned "salvation" package that only comes in one colour/size/shape.  Putting aside the free will/determinism debate and focusing just on the desires and intentions of the Biblical deity, the whole thing just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2011, 05:11:50 PM »
I would gladly go to hell for the rest of eternity if it meant that even a single life form in the universe would be free from the tyranny of such a being.

Me too.  However, if god existed, no life form would be free no matter what you did.

So tell me, Lucifer, how would you, as one not pathetic, affect the postulated God? 

And good job with the rampant emotions.  Really serving as a model for atheism there chief.

Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2011, 05:13:03 PM »
Well, we both are speculating here.  I think a god that wanted worshipers would make us love it.  We would be designed to love it.

Interesting thought, but what would be the value of such "love" to the god?  Would it not be simpler just to remain in one's celestial paradise, not create any universes or little blue planets, and set up some automatic praise-dispensing mechanism?

We're crossing into that nebulous topic "God X gave us free will so that we, ourselves could choose to do {whatever it is God X wanted us to do in the first place}."  This puzzle has a lot of relevance to the OP, which asks in effect if we would buy a predesigned "salvation" package that only comes in one colour/size/shape.  Putting aside the free will/determinism debate and focusing just on the desires and intentions of the Biblical deity, the whole thing just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Of course not.  There is no God.  There would be no value in having us worship it, but that wasn't the question.

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3833
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2011, 05:14:16 PM »
So, there have been 34 replies on this thread, and no response as yet from ELOI, the OP?

So what's going on here?



« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 06:43:26 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline dloubet

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1433
  • Darwins +96/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • Denisloubet.com
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2011, 05:19:07 PM »
When we're talking about proving the existence of the Christian god, are we just talking about the acceptance of a supreme being or everything in the bible? Because if we're just talking about proving the existence of a god, then heaven, hell, demons and devils, and afterlives are still unproven. We would have to possess omniscience to prove that the god has omniscience, there would have to be proof that it created the universe and just didn't lie about that, there would be a host of things that would be radically different about the universe we know for the whole of the bible to be true. So seeing as this hypothetical scenario is occurring in a completely different universe from this one, it's hard for me to answer it.

But if I accepted that there was the bible-god, then there would have to be a Satan as well, and I would thus be paralyzed. I would not be able to tell if anything supposedly from god was not actually from the Satan character. I could not trust anything. I could not trust the bible for it might have been written by the Satan character. I could not trust the church for they may be Satan's mouthpiece. I could not trust voices in my head or even gut feelings for they might be placed there by a malevolent supernatural being with unknown powers of persuasion.

The only thing I could do is pretend that they didn't exist and carry on as I am now, an atheist, and let the chips fall where they may.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 05:21:36 PM by dloubet »
Denis Loubet

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 14851
  • Darwins +626/-67
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2011, 05:23:12 PM »
I would gladly go to hell for the rest of eternity if it meant that even a single life form in the universe would be free from the tyranny of such a being.

Me too.  However, if god existed, no life form would be free no matter what you did.

Ignoring the non-sequitur there, along with the obvious contradiction, I don't care. I would fight against it until the end of time.

So tell me, Lucifer, how would you, as one not pathetic, affect the postulated God? 

Iron chariots would be a way of doing it. Another way would be to try to get people who aren't selfish to see that this being is evil, and therefore doesn't deserve worship. I could conceive of many more means for the same goal if I had an eternity to think.

And good job with the rampant emotions.  Really serving as a model for atheism there chief.

First of all, I am not a model of atheism nor am I a representation of all atheists. If all atheists were like me we would have a lot of problems[1]. Atheists are individuals; there is not a single living being in the whole universe that can represent us as a whole. Second, I feel emotions, just like every other human and just like a lot of other species. I expressed them in a way that was not harmful, as everyone should. Third, you call that rampant? You have no idea what rampant is. And finally, fourth: Never put me as a role model for anything, regardless of how good/bad you think I am.
 1. Feel free to interpret this as you wish.
My names are many, yet I am One.
-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

Religions need books because they don't have gods.

Discord: https://discord.gg/Hhz7Ff2

Offline ungod

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
  • Darwins +15/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2011, 05:33:54 PM »
Playing the old shell game on the stoopid atheists, eh. Since Jesus IS God, let's rephrase it HONESTLY instead of DECEPTIVELY, which makes it, "If God Exists, would you accept God as your savior?
Savior from what - the Hell God created?

This is EXACTLY like a Mafia protection racket - kiss our ass, and pay, and we won't torch your business.

Try your "clever" tricks on some Sunday School class.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 05:35:39 PM by ungod »
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2011, 05:39:57 PM »

So you would rather burn for all time than change your mind?

I guess I really don't understand people.

Yes, and this is your problem.

For someone like me, and probably a lot of others here, the worst thing I could imagine would be giving in to this brutal and despicable god-figure. Serving hm would be worse than anything else, because it would be a death of the spirit and the soul. It would mean serving the greatest evil in existence and surrounding myself with it for all eternity.

So the suffering of hell would actually be the lesser punishment.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Historicity

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2350
  • Darwins +80/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • (Rama, avatar of Vishnu)
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2011, 06:10:57 PM »
For the sake of argument, let everyone just assume bible God exists.  Would you repent and accept Jesus as you savior? Why and why not?

Absolutely not.  Not for any reason whatsoever.

I simply can't trust the ethics or motives or veracity of a god that would require acceptance of a proxy blood sacrifice, with the penalty for noncompliance being eternal torture.

So do you see it this way?



That's from The Jack Chick Parody Archive

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3833
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2011, 06:14:07 PM »
Quote
Serving hm would be worse than anything else, because it would be a death of the spirit and the soul
Hey, I thought souls were imaginary, like gods?

So what exactly do you mean, Alzael, when you talk of spirits and souls?

« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 06:24:29 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2011, 06:20:10 PM »
So the suffering of hell would actually be the lesser punishment.

Can you admit that if God existed, other aspects of the universe would have to be different?
We're just talking back and forth, but it's completely pointless.
 
I have my assumptions about how things would change and everyone else has theirs. 

But as the existence of the god of the bible is impossible, we can't really argue using logic about how that universe would work.

You just feel very strongly about something that doesn't concern me at all.
I don't really hate Christians or God, I just believe God is imaginary and Christians are deluded.

Offline ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Darwins +0/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • My God, why have you forsaken me?
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2011, 06:22:34 PM »
Thank you for your honest answers.

By looking at your posts, it seems that it doesn't even matter even if God healed amputees or not.
Whether God exists or not you guys will not go with the bible God's salvation plan, would you?

Then let me ask you another question.

Why the question "WWGHA" is so important to you or anybody else?
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system.

Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2011, 06:25:49 PM »
Why the question "WWGHA" is so important to you or anybody else?

This site is brilliant because it can capitulate everything else to the theists and still is sufficient to show there is no God given this one point.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2011, 06:26:27 PM »
Quote
Serving hm would be worse than anything else, because it would be a death of the spirit and the soul
I thought souls were imaginary, like gods?

So what exactly do you mean, Alzael, when you talk of spirits and souls?

I mean as in a metaphorical sense. As in a death of the self (that which makes you who are as well as an individual) and a betrayal of the principles that one lives by, in favour of submitting to the will of another (in this case a very evil being and dickish being).

And to answer your implied question, no, I do not attribute any supernatural elements to such things. It's merely that the writer part of me has always found the spirit/soul metaphor appealing.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3833
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2011, 06:31:23 PM »
Eloi:
Quote
Thank you for your honest answers.

By looking at your posts, it seems that it doesn't even matter even if God healed amputees or not.
Whether God exists or not you guys will not go with the bible God's salvation plan, would you?

Then let me ask you another question
No. That's not how it works here.

Respond to the people who responded to you. Not necessarily individually, a general comment would do - but at least more than a couple of sentences.

Then, you can ask another question....
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 06:34:37 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Darwins +0/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • My God, why have you forsaken me?
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2011, 06:34:18 PM »
@Fungus drool moose.

'Honesty brings forth isolation in any kind of human society' which tells us what kind of monsters and liars we are.

Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system.

Offline curiousgirl

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
  • Darwins +22/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Inquisitive agnostic atheist
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2011, 06:38:57 PM »
Why the question "WWGHA" is so important to you or anybody else?

Isn't the answer painfully obvious? Think of Occam's razor, then try to answer WWGHA for yourself. Then you will see why it is so important to us.

In the meantime, try to respond to our posts.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2011, 06:39:44 PM »
@Fungus drool moose.

'Honesty brings forth isolation in any kind of human society' which tells us what kind of monsters and liars we are.

I think it's not really a matter of honesty as much as not having a chip on my shoulder.  There is so much anger and hatred here. 

Moose Drool is an awesome beer.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2011, 06:40:19 PM »
So the suffering of hell would actually be the lesser punishment.

Can you admit that if God existed, other aspects of the universe would have to be different?

Naturally, if god actually existed then things would be different than the reality that we live in now. It's not really relevant to the point though. It wouldn't change what the biblegod is. Just how our own reality would be. He would still be a horrible, evil creature, in my opinion. It's just that now he could turn me into salt when I said it.

In a reality that allowed free will (which wouldn't exist if this god was real of course), I would never ever worship him.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Darwins +0/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • My God, why have you forsaken me?
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2011, 06:59:15 PM »
Christians and atheists musta have different belief system.

Are you basically saying "I would much rather endure eternal hell, so that I don't have to go to heaven?"

That is just mind blowing.
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system.

Offline curiousgirl

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
  • Darwins +22/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Inquisitive agnostic atheist
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2011, 07:08:23 PM »
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system. We are trying to rely on reason in this thread, and your God does not seem to deserve worship.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Darwins +0/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • My God, why have you forsaken me?
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2011, 07:25:41 PM »
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system. We are trying to rely on reason in this thread, and your God does not seem to deserve worship.
That is equally mind blowing. No belief system?

How about women's rights, human values, skepticism, equality, humanism........

No belief system, period? Hope you are not representing the whole 'Atheism'. I am very curious, girl.
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system.

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3833
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2011, 07:26:43 PM »
Eloi:
Quote
@Fungus drool moose.

'Honesty brings forth isolation in any kind of human society' which tells us what kind of monsters and liars we are.

1. Is that addressed to me? I'm not a moose, I'm a gnu; of the family bovidae, rather than cervidae. Same kingdom, phylum, class and order, I agree; but different families. 

2. What is the source of your quote, 'Honesty brings forth isolation in any kind of human society'? Google can't find it.

Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2011, 07:32:55 PM »
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system. We are trying to rely on reason in this thread, and your God does not seem to deserve worship.
That is equally mind blowing. No belief system?

How about women's rights, human values, skepticism, equality, humanism........

No belief system, period? Hope you are not representing the whole 'Atheism'. I am very curious, girl.

Can't speak for curious girl with high confidence, but I'd imagine she meant no consistent belief system.

Personally, I believe a ton of stuff. 

I used to doubt all knowledge other than that I existed. 
Then I got into Buddhism and was shocked to learn that not even I existed. 
At least not as a permanent unchanging self.

Now I hold all knowledge as suspect but believe everything I think I know.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4722
  • Darwins +474/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: IF GOD EXISTS, YOU WOULD ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR?
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2011, 07:35:25 PM »
Aren't we all tired of debating on existence of God?
We all know nobody has a rock solid evidence on either case.

Let's start something new.
For the sake of argument, let everyone just assume bible God exists.
Would you repent and accept Jesus as you savior?

Why and why not?

There is a problem with the assumption that evidence of God changes anything. If evidence was important, God would supply it, so it is obviously not.

Therefore, accepting Jesus as your saviour is problematic. I could say that I accept Jesus, but it may not turn out that it meant anything. I could do good works, thinking that I'm honouring Jesus, but that may not mean anything.

How can you love a spirit that seems to turn up for some people and not others, according to their say so?

Are you saying that proof that God exists also comes with proof that I'm being saved by Jesus? Otherwise, your question is a fallacy.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.