God will, and has done millions of times. [#2617]

[pianodwarf]

Check out the woks of God through these ministries for example:
http://www.freedom-ministries.us/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
www.jglm.org




Look up these names:
Smith Wigglesworth
John G Lake
Mariah Woodworth Etter
Amie Semple Mcphearson
Alexander Dowie

to name a few, all had amputees healed by the power of God in the name of Jesus, and the dead raised to life, as well as multiple 1000s of other wrcorded and doctor verified miracles, some of the reports you can find online from the (secular) doctors themselves and the list goes on etc, that's the very least of the miraculous things I could mention actually.

on an intellectual level, look into a book called 'The Evolution of a Creationist' and 'Startling proofs' you can get them for free as a PDF
go on youtube and listen to a good friend of mine at http://www.youtube.com/user/venomfangx

Go on youtube and type in the Documentary film by Darren Wilson called 'Furious Love', and 'The Finger of God'

You are dedicated to the wrong side fellow brother of humanity, regardless of what you believe, when you face God on Judgement day all will be clear to you, so before then AT LEAST, listen and watch some of these that I am talking about, read those pdfs I know you spent to much time reading and watching things on your counter argument, but now open your mind to another view for a little time and see for the first time.

You may not understand God and may hate God, but if you fully understood God, then God wouldn't be God, God isnt to blame for the evil that's in the world, we chose to do evil, God gave US responsibility and choice and power and authority in this material world, we decided to squander that and turn from God and sin that's why we need a saviour, that's why we will all be judged. Regardless of what you think about it.

[curiousgirl]

Even if I were to believe your silly claims that God "has done millions of times," and that humans are to blame for evil, why does God allow suffering and evil to begin with?

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus

[velkyn]

You are dedicated to the wrong side fellow brother of humanity, regardless of what you believe, when you face God on Judgement day all will be clear to you, so before then AT LEAST, listen and watch some of these that I am talking about, read those pdfs I know you spent to much time reading and watching things on your counter argument, but now open your mind to another view for a little time and see for the first time.

always nice to see the usual desperate threats.  It'd be great if you would actually do some research and see such pathetic parlor tricks are such garbage. 

You may not understand God and may hate God, but if you fully understood God, then God wouldn't be God, God isnt to blame for the evil that's in the world, we chose to do evil, God gave US responsibility and choice and power and authority in this material world, we decided to squander that and turn from God and sin that's why we need a saviour, that's why we will all be judged. Regardless of what you think about it.

and more ignorance of the bible by a Christian.  No, your bible says you are so wrong.  Read Romans 9, Christian, heck, read your whole bible and don't depend on some pastor to tell you what it "really" says. 

[Historicity]

Check out the woks of God through these ministries for example:
http://www.freedom-ministries.us/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
www.jglm.org

Okay, I'm dutifully tracking it.

Freedom Ministries is otherwise known as David Hogan.  He's been doing this since 1981.  I looked at his November and December schedule.  He preaches about every other day and will be up and down the West Coast.  Apparently the really miraculous healings were well out of sight in the mountains of Mexico.

He has a donations page that makes careful note that there are no refunds.  He has a FAQ page but that mostly deals with donations and NO REFUNDS.

[Historicity]

I started on Aimee Semple McPherson since I've heard of her.

Googling "Aimee Semple McPherson amputee" hasn't come up with much.  There's a reference to a man with some gangrene in his toes and doctors recommended amputation but after her healing he was OK.  It's in a 1.2MB PDF that's too long for me to load:

www.cbmh.ca/index.php/cbmh/article/view/427/426

I tried to download it but there was an error.   www.scribd.com has some pages of her writings but they never seem to load.

As far as I can see she claimed healings of limbs that doctors had said had to be amputated. 

There is a well known effect that stage magicians use.  It is surprising how audience member selected out will agree with things you say that you impose on them, distorting any ambiguity.  A doctor who went to work for Kathryn Kuhlman did his duty intercepting sick people outside and helpfully getting them into wheelchairs.  Then when a slight limp appeared to be "healed" she would point and ask, "Is that your wheelchair?" and the healed person would say, yes.  Of course I am in "my" room right now but it is rented.  "My" tools at work actually belong to the employer.  We often use a possessive that way so "your wheelchair" was correct for a borrowed wheelchair tho she implied it was the victim's wheelchair and he had been unable to walk.  The healed person didn't want to make an embarrassing scene in public by objecting to the false impression.

It's called Magician's Choice.  I doubt that anyone with real gangrene came to her services.  A doctor may have said that if it gets worse...

I've never heard a claim she raised the dead.  #2617 should dig that up for us.

Maybe I'll check a few more of the names.

[Historicity]

Smith Wigglesworth (d. 1947).  Still haven't got a page to load on him.  From the Google page he apparently claimed to heal amputees and raise the dead.

I was directed to Eliseo Soriano's sore loser demand that we stop using the Bible as evidence of what the Bible says it says.  He was here in 2007 and I was directed to his response off site in 2007.  There's a saying that you can have your own opinion but not your own facts.  He says it's like breaking a contract.

Okay, I've found Wigglesworth's healing.  In his own words.  It's not dated.
http://www.hissheep.org/past/deliverance_to_the_captives.html

I was traveling one day in a railway train in Sweden . At one station there boarded the train an old lady with her daughter. The old lady's expression was so troubled that I enquired what was the matter with her. I heard that she was going to the hospital to have her leg taken off. She began to weep as she told that the doctors had said there was no hope for her except through having her leg amputated. She was seventy years old. I said to my interpreter, "Tell her that Jesus can heal her." The instant this was said to her, it was as though a veil was taken off her face, it became so light. We stopped at another station and the carriage filled tip with people. There was a rush of men to board that train and the devil said, "You're done." But I knew I had the best proposition, for hard things are always opportunities to get to the Lord more glory when He manifests His power. Every trial is a blessing. There have been times when I have been pressed through circumstances and it seemed as if a dozen road engines were going over me, but I have found that the hardest things are just lifting places into the grace of God. We have such a lovely Jesus. He always proves Himself to be such a mighty Deliverer. He never fails to plan the best things for us.

The train began moving and I crouched down, and in the name of Jesus commanded the disease to leave. The old lady cried, "I'm healed. I know I'm healed." She stamped her leg and said, "I'm going to prove it." So when we stopped at another station she marched up and down, and shouted, "I'm not going to the hospital." Once again our wonderful Jesus had proven Himself a Healer of the broken-hearted, a Deliverer of one that was bound.

So he did not do any follow up.  He worked up some adrenaline, got someone to ignore sensations, and temporarily walk on a leg with defective circulation.  Kathryn Kuhlman and the rest of the faith healers do that all the time.

Next...

[Historicity]

John G. Lake, apparently.

Google directs me to  Why Won't God Heal Amputees? Mailbag message #162, October 19, 2006.

And a reference on Yahoo answers telling some to "go research" him. 

Somehow Google did not tell me he has a Wikipedia page:

John Graham Lake (March 18, 1870–September 16, 1935)

He re-entered the ministry when Alexander Dowie healed his sister of breast cancer.  She had had 5 operations.  So this was spontaneous remission or the doctors got all of it the last time.  His wife was miraculously healed at a distance at the same time. 

When did this happen?  What's the source?  What was his wife's illness?  Sorry, this Wikipedia page reads like hype.  Still, it does not mention any healed amputees.

Next...

[Historicity]

Maria Woodworth-Etter (July 22, 1844–September 16, 1924)

The Wikipedia article is almost a stub:

She began to pray for the sick in 1885, believing that those with sufficient faith would be healed. Her meetings also became known for people falling to the floor in trance-like states. These people would later report profound spiritual experiences while in such a state. As she preached throughout the nation, her reputation grew, leading her to purchase of an 8,000 seat tent in which to conduct her services. After 1912, she joined the young Pentecostal movement and preached widely in Pentecostal circles until her death.

You have to read this to get the feel for it:
The Great Chicago Visitation of 1913 and Prophecy

The Great Chicago Visitation of 1913 was such a time. It was one of the most powerful visitations of divine presence that this city has ever experienced.

Maria Woodworth-Etter, a well-known evangelist, had been invited to hold a series of meetings at the Stone Church, located at 37Th and Indiana, beginning on July 2, 1913. Posters had been placed throughout the city to advertise the meeting. The services were to last until the end of July. This was a time of divine appointment for the city of Chicago; God rent the heavens and came down!! Scenes from the days of the Early Church began to occur at Stone Church. Word began to spread throughout Chicago of miraculous healings, deliverance from demonic possession, conversions, and of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit happening in these meetings. Advertisement was no longer necessary!

Incredible healings were reported. A woman, who had been blind 15 years and had never seen her children, was instantly healed. A paralyzed man, whose joints were ossified, could not move any limb or his head, had to be fed with a spoon, and could barely speak, was prayed for. ... Sister Woodworth-Etter commanded him in the name of Jesus to rise and walk. ... He jumped from his wheel chair, ran down the isle of the church and a half a block down the street. ... A young woman, who had lost total hearing in one ear and was losing hearing in the second ear, came for prayer. She was instantly healed. During one song service, four crippled people were healed and began to walk without the use of canes or crutches.
...
A crippled woman, ... hobbled down the street to the church. ...A German woman... invited the crippled woman to come into the church and she and others would pray for her. As soon as the woman walked into the church, she was instantly healed. A father traveled from Oklahoma bringing his two daughters with him. One could not use her limbs nor talk. The other was born deaf and dumb. Both were instantly healed. One of the girls wept and laughed when she heard singing for the first time in her life.

No amputees.  Hysterical blindness cured and the usual adrenalin rush as well as shifting someone's perceptions.  An almost deaf woman losing her hearing said she could hear better.  What was the followup?

I looked for the prophecy:

6. A prophetic word was given the last night of this six-month long meeting. As Christians prayed around the altar, Sister Woodworth-Etter and others gave a powerful prophecy and divine promise for the future:

“We are not yet up to the fullness of the Former Rain and that when the Latter Rain comes, it will far exceed anything we have seen!”

Oooookay.  No one without real clairvoyance could say that.[1]

Scenes from the days of the Early Church began to occur at Stone Church.

Probably true, tho not in the way the author meant.

Next....

1.

Sarcasm

[Historicity]

John Alexander Dowie (25 May 1847 – 9 March 1907)

Wikipedia doesn't have amputee among his accomplishments.  Neither do these sites:

Healing and Revival -- Leaves of Healing (That was the name of his newsletter.)
Truth in History -- Life & Ministry of John Alexander Dowie.  "Where the the Word of God is not bound" is the site's motto.
www.dowie.org -- John Alexander Dowie Obviously a fan site devoted to him.

To sum him up:

John Alexander Dowie arrived in the United States from Australia in the 1890's to address a religious conference in San Francisco concerning his teachings regarding his Christian faith and belief in faith healing.

His religious message was well received and by 1895 Dowie had founded the Christian Catholic Church in Chicago. He established a printing firm to publish the weekly paper "Leaves of Healing", ran 13 healing homes (similar to half-way houses) and started a worldwide mission program. After much controversy and conflict in Chicago, Dowie decided to establish his own community whereby the church membership could worship in a Christian environment. He purchased 6,800 acres of farmland in Lake County and the City of Zion was founded in 1890.

Okay.  That ends the research as Brother #2617 has commanded.

[violatedsmurf80]

Didnt Penn and Teller do something like this.

[Onesimus]

Am I a bad person when I see a first post like this and just can't be bothered to check out all the references?  How much debunking can one person reasonably be expected to do with such outlandish claims?

[Historicity]

Am I a bad person when I see a first post like this and just can't be bothered to check out all the references?  How much debunking can one person reasonably be expected to do with such outlandish claims?

Now you're making me feel bad.  As I was going thru this I saw that it was getting dark, that I had used up the time to work on a shop job, that I was getting into the time for my evening exercise.

I sort of enjoyed it.  It was not as much fun, however, than some of the other research that has been stimulated here.

As a coda, I will recall an article by a doctor who researched Kathryn Kuhlman's[1] show.  He followed it with an interview and asked whether she had any follow-up to see how the faith healing worked in the days afterwards.  Did she take names and addresses?  No.  He concluded she was a sincere true believer and she did not want to know.

As the author of this website once noted, Christians don't pray for a perfectly reasonable miracle such as to fly to an upper story of a burning building and grab someone in their arms and rescue them.  At some level they know not to ask a supposedly infinite god for that because of the disappointment that it will never happen.

1.	The big faith healer of the 1950s and 1960s. D. 1976

[Samuelxcs]

His amputees were healed by God?...He can walk! Hallelujah!

[screwtape]

go on youtube and listen to a good friend of mine at http://www.youtube.com/user/venomfangx

your good friend?  He is a criminal, a liar, a bully and a possibly mentally ill.  You should choose your friends more wisely. 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/VenomFangX#An_internet_troll_rambling_from_his_Mom_and_Dad.27s_McMansion_basement

[Historicity]

go on youtube and listen to a good friend of mine at http://www.youtube.com/user/venomfangx

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/VenomFangX#An_internet_troll_rambling_from_his_Mom_and_Dad.27s_McMansion_basement

Interestingly in most of his new videos, VenomFangX decided to allow a "friend" Kyle to join him in the films. Kyle hardly does anything accept stand around, cross-armed (to show his muscles), and wear sunglasses to hide his eyes. Kyle does not bring anything new or rarely contribute, he more or less acts like a body guard. ..., based on two videos with VenomFangX in a shower towel complimenting a male YouTube user and another video with VFX gently feeling Kyle's big muscles.

Likely a coincidence since "good friend" covers a wide territory.

[Graybeard]

Check out the woks of God through these ministries for example:

I watched as far as 0.40sec. The deception is absolutely clear. I have learned a few 'magic tricks' and not only can I do the same thing but I could teach you to do the same thing in a few seconds.

The video is fraud on a grand scale.

Are liars, cheats and fraudsters all that Jesus can rely upon?

[violatedsmurf80]

I watched as far as 0.40sec. The deception is absolutely clear. I have learned a few 'magic tricks' and not only can I do the same thing but I could teach you to do the same thing in a few seconds.

The video is fraud on a grand scale.

Are liars, cheats and fraudsters all that Jesus can rely upon?

I wonder how much money this guy made off this, sending the message out that if he can do this then he can heal. i dont think you can minimize the impact of not being healed on a person, the family, the extended family. They have a sense of euphoria at the crusade and then crash down. The effect of not being healed can be terribly disillusioning. However, healers such as this guy, Benny Hinn and many like him can always deflect criticism by blaming the sick for not having enough faith and this is where the line should be drawn and frauds be put in jail.

[nogodsforme]

A devoutly religious friend told me that a boy paralyzed in a diving accident was not healed when prayed over at his church. The boy struggled and cried as he tried to get up while the pastor repeatedly yelled at him and commanded him to walk. The church members then blamed the boy for not having sufficient faith. Talk about evil. 

I wonder why there are not more stories like this among the faith healing set....maybe because there might be pastors gunned down by irate relatives for putting people through sh!t like this?

[Chronos]

It'd be great if you would actually do some research and see such pathetic parlor tricks are such garbage. 

David Blaine is far more entertaining.

[Chronos]

Check out the woks of God ...

[violatedsmurf80]

A devoutly religious friend told me that a boy paralyzed in a diving accident was not healed when prayed over at his church. The boy struggled and cried as he tried to get up while the pastor repeatedly yelled at him and commanded him to walk. The church members then blamed the boy for not having sufficient faith. Talk about evil. 

I wonder why there are not more stories like this among the faith healing set....maybe because there might be pastors gunned down by irate relatives for putting people through sh!t like this?

So I guess faith like a child proved their was no GoD, Ooo, but wait grown ups religious freaks know best in the religious community... dumb asses

[Historicity]

A devoutly religious friend told me that a boy paralyzed in a diving accident was not healed when prayed over at his church. The boy struggled and cried as he tried to get up while the pastor repeatedly yelled at him and commanded him to walk. The church members then blamed the boy for not having sufficient faith.

In the 1950s every year Mary Martin would perform the stage play Peter Pan and I would watch.  It was done as live TV. His personal assistant Tinkerbell was a tiny light moving about the stage and a tinkling sound when she spoke.  Peter explained to Wendy that there are very few fairies left because every time a child grows up enough to say, "I don't believe", a fairy dies.

At one point Tinkerbell has exhausted her powers and is fading.  Peter breaks the Fourth Wall and asks all the children in the audience to say, "I do believe in fairies.  I do believe in fairies."  If we said it fervently enough Tinkerbell will recover.  So each year I participated in the suspension of disbelief (no fun if you don't) and played along and said to our black and white TV (which I knew very well was only a receiver, not a transmitter) "I do believe in fairies.  I do believe in fairies."

And Tinkerbell recovered.

I don't think I have to finish this by noting the parallels.

[velkyn]

A devoutly religious friend told me that a boy paralyzed in a diving accident was not healed when prayed over at his church. The boy struggled and cried as he tried to get up while the pastor repeatedly yelled at him and commanded him to walk. The church members then blamed the boy for not having sufficient faith. Talk about evil. 

I wonder why there are not more stories like this among the faith healing set....maybe because there might be pastors gunned down by irate relatives for putting people through sh!t like this?

that's just horrific.  And I'm guessing your reason for the lack of such stories is accurate. It sure would be in my case. I'd take an ax to the bastard. 

and I can remember doing just what Historicity said.  Shouting at the tv and I seem to remember that there was also clapping involved in the ones I watched, to save Tink's life.   

[nogodsforme]

I was in kindergarden when I saw Peter Pan on tv. I sprinkled my toddler sister with fairy dust and told her she could fly. She jumped off the top of the bunk bed and dropped like a stone. I'm sure there is a parallel with religion in there, or maybe it just means I was a little b!tch. 

[jaimehlers]

The reason there aren't more stories like that is because of selection; the ones likely to react badly aren't likely to accept faith healing to begin with.  In other words, the ones who would react badly tend to select themselves out beforehand.

[Hatter23]

In the 1950s every year Mary Martin would perform the stage play Peter Pan and I would watch.  It was done as live TV. His personal assistant Tinkerbell was a tiny light moving about the stage and a tinkling sound when she spoke.  Peter explained to Wendy that there are very few fairies left because every time a child grows up enough to say, "I don't believe", a fairy dies.

At one point Tinkerbell has exhausted her powers and is fading.  Peter breaks the Fourth Wall and asks all the children in the audience to say, "I do believe in fairies.  I do believe in fairies."  If we said it fervently enough Tinkerbell will recover.  So each year I participated in the suspension of disbelief (no fun if you don't) and played along and said to our black and white TV (which I knew very well was only a receiver, not a transmitter) "I do believe in fairies.  I do believe in fairies."

And Tinkerbell recovered.

I don't think I have to finish this by noting the parallels.

I think this might be relevant



http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp11012011.shtml

Because there's always one kid who just won't clap