Question [#2616]

[riley2112]

The facts that I have had placed in front of me here has given my mind and my heart hours of thought that questions the very belief that I live my life by. I have heard arguments on both sides, and I feel more confused that anything else. I am finding it impossible to find an opinion that is not somehow bias in one form or another.
No man holding a strong belief on one side of a question, or even wishing to hold a belief on one side, can investigate it with such fairness and completeness as if he were really in doubt and unbiased (William Clifford). A very strong statement and one I see as true.
To think I am having doubts about something I would have swore to two weeks ago is nothing less than scary. Everything I believe is coming into question.
 This sucks.

[Iamrational]

I agree with you Riley. I was a "born and raised" Catholic. I was made to go. I did first communion. I was even confirmed. Let me tell you I NEVER ONCE thought I was eating the body of Christ. I just thought it felt the same for everyone. I was a young man right out of high school and in the Army when my faith was strongest. I went even by myself every Sunday. I would pray hard and even get chills doing it. I would picture the bubble of protection over my family as I was asking God to protect them. In the end, I felt the same. I would here born agains ask me if I was saved because they were. I word hear Baptist say that the bible is word for word. I would hear my priest tell me they are a collection of stories to guide. I finally sat down and started reading the book myself. I then looked at the world around me and made assumptions. I then studied books on science and watched shows. I was doubting just like you. My grandfather passed away some time ago and everyone wanted to save him, so I thought. He was a Eucharistic Minister in the Catholic church which a pretty big deal. He handed out the BODY of Christ. I find out after he died that 40 years ago for about 8 years he was raping my Aunt. My grandmother found out finally and stayed with him. I thought no wonder they didn't really want to save him when he had a staph infection. They knew. So then I am really doubting. This fool was giving out the BODY of christ and was raping kids for awhile. Oh this stuff just doesn't quit. I don't rape kids and I know it is wrong but I don't hand out the body and blood. Riley it is just too much. This website just nails it all over. Prayer, contradictions, science (like especially geology) everything is so right or AT LEAST begs the question "Is this stuff for real?" That gives you at least another perspective. 

[riley2112]

I could show argument against most of the stuff I see on here, but I am doubting the very arguments I would give.

Couldn't this have waited until after Xmas. I suppose you are now going to tell me there is no Santa. Where does this stop?

[Alzael]

I could show argument against most of the stuff I see on here, but I am doubting the very arguments I would give.

Couldn't this have waited until after Xmas. I suppose you are now going to tell me there is no Santa. Where does this stop?

I was never religious myself, so I never had to go through the conflicts that most do in your situation. For what it's worth however I sympathize. It might help you to sort things out by looking at another faith. Look at Islam or Zoroastrianism or some other faith and see what they say and how they prove their arguments about their faith. Then ask yourself why you do or don't believe them. Then apply those same questions and reasons to your own faith.

Once you fully understand why you don't believe in any of their religions, you'll probably fully understand why we don't believe in yours either.

I can't tell you that there is no Santa, unfortunately. However I can tell you that Christmas isn't really Jesus' birthday. Does that count?

[velkyn]

I could show argument against most of the stuff I see on here, but I am doubting the very arguments I would give.

Couldn't this have waited until after Xmas. I suppose you are now going to tell me there is no Santa. Where does this stop?

as your other post said adn I agree with, it does suck when you start to question things you've held as true for your whole life, like I did, raised as a Presbyterian. 

It's very very hard to give such things up and it does hurt.   I still wish I could beleive in a god that cares for me or that cares for even just "somebody". 

You may be biased but the good thing about humans is that they can think and get passed that.  And is is scary to have all you thought was true come into question.

oh and to add my two cents about whether or not a non-believer would suddenly start praying if in a worse enough situation, that's the old "no atheists in foxholes" arguement.  From what I've read and heard, there are a lot of people who became atheists in foxholes when literally their buddy was killed beside them or more figuratively, seeing something awful and understanding their belief of a "good" god was totally untrue, like a friend who was part of the army that freed the concentration camps at the end of WWII. 

[Ivellios]

Absence of Evidence of Santa is NOT Evidence of Absence!


Riley, as someone that had once been a Christian, I feel for you. Even after reading the Bible and reading that stuff that I cannot excuse a "perfect" god for... I realized that the god of the Bible wasn't real, but it still took a long time for me to get my emotions in check regarding it. 16+ years of brainwashing makes it hard, and they've had 2,000 years to perfect it.

A great summary of the Bible is done by BionicDance on YouTube. Due to YouTube not liking vids over 10 min long, her synopsis per book is limited to that since at the time I last watched she was only doing 1 episode a book. So she doesn't cover everything, but she does cover stuff that makes one with current level of expected knowledge and morals to go    ... WTF!?

She also lists bible verses, so you can follow along, so you can see she isn't making **** up. Then you'll understand why the church doesn't cover the whole bible all the while claiming to do so.

[nogodsforme]

Riley, every religion cannot be right. Which is more likely-- 1) they are all wrong, or 2) only one is right and it just so happens to be yours? 

It is possible that there is one true, correct, perfect religion that has everything figured out. (For ease of argument, let's say that Christianity is this perfectly true religion.) This religion's prayers would work as advertised, without the need for excuses, complicated explanations or weasling.  If a baby's hand got slammed in a door, the parents would pray to the right god and the baby's hand would be fixed right then and there.

No need for  "well, you did not pray the right way" or "god wanted the baby's hand to be mangled to teach you something" or "see, god did heal the baby really because he gave us medicine and doctors who can sew the child's hand back together, if you have enough money to pay for health insurance and live near a hospital and have transportation there and back....."

The members of this true religion would have far better lives than everyone else. The miracles sponsored by this religion would be happening right and left. It would be obvious to everyone that this one religion was the only true one. Everyone would flock to this religion in droves. There would be no atheists or indeed, other religions. Why would there need to be any other if there was one that really worked?

You would never have to proselytize or witness or go on missions to other cultures to convince them to adopt your religion. You would not have to argue for your religion on internet forums. People would automatically convert as soon as they knew about it. People would be begging for it, even if they grew up in a culture where it hadn't dominated. It would eventually dominate everywhere. If this perfectly true religion existed, everyone on the planet would believe in it and the world would be a very much improved place. 

Unfortunately, there is no religion that works like that--or if there is, nobody has uncovered it yet. Luckily, we do have something that comes pretty close, or as close as imperfect humans are going to get: science. That is why religious fundamentalists are so threatened by science. It works where every religion has miserably failed.[1]

Science works for everyone no matter what culture. Anyone can learn how to use it and benefit from it.  The miracles it has produced are obvious everywhere. People who have access to it have far better lives. And the vast majority of the world's population accept it without having  to "believe in" anything. You don't have to force people to accept cell phones or computers or cars or vaccines or electricity or clean water. People can clearly see the benefits that science can provide. They become normal aspects of everyday life.

1.	And the last straw they grab at is, "Well, science is just another religion. So there!" To which I would respond, "Yeah. One that works. If your religion worked, we would not need science. So there."

[velkyn]

Science works for everyone no matter what culture. Anyone can learn how to use it and benefit from it.  The miracles it has produced are obvious everywhere. People who have access to it have far better lives. And the vast majority of the world's population accept it without having  to "believe in" anything. You don't have to force people to accept cell phones or computers or cars or vaccines or electricity or clean water. People can clearly see the benefits that science can provide. They become normal aspects of everyday life.

great post and I like this part especially.  Your observation that science works for everyone does strike me as a reason that fundamentalists are so afraid of it.  Science does not support that one group of people is better than another.  And this would make any theist who was sure he was special very sad and scared.

[riley2112]

Science works for everyone no matter what culture. Anyone can learn how to use it and benefit from it.  The miracles it has produced are obvious everywhere. People who have access to it have far better lives. And the vast majority of the world's population accept it without having  to "believe in" anything. You don't have to force people to accept cell phones or computers or cars or vaccines or electricity or clean water. People can clearly see the benefits that science can provide. They become normal aspects of everyday life.

great post and I like this part especially.  Your observation that science works for everyone does strike me as a reason that fundamentalists are so afraid of it.  Science does not support that one group of people is better than another.  And this would make any theist who was sure he was special very sad and scared.

Science is great and does work for all. The only thing that is strange to me is the ideal that you believe that people of religion would fear science or would think that they are  special or that it would make them sad or scared in any way. I have never noticed any of that being taught at the church I attend. Surely only fools would feel that way about science. Granted I have only been attending the church for around 4 months. But they all seem to be very good people that are humble and caring for others no matter their beliefs. I guess I could be wrong, but that is how they come across to me. I do, however wonder what the reaction of my pastor will be when I ask him the questions that I have in mind. His response is going to have a huge impact on how I precede in my beliefs. I wonder will he be honest with me or will he try to fill me with b.s.   It should be an interesting conversation.

[Alzael]

Science works for everyone no matter what culture. Anyone can learn how to use it and benefit from it.  The miracles it has produced are obvious everywhere. People who have access to it have far better lives. And the vast majority of the world's population accept it without having  to "believe in" anything. You don't have to force people to accept cell phones or computers or cars or vaccines or electricity or clean water. People can clearly see the benefits that science can provide. They become normal aspects of everyday life.

great post and I like this part especially.  Your observation that science works for everyone does strike me as a reason that fundamentalists are so afraid of it.  Science does not support that one group of people is better than another.  And this would make any theist who was sure he was special very sad and scared.

Science is great and does work for all. The only thing that is strange to me is the ideal that you believe that people of religion would fear science or would think that they are  special or that it would make them sad or scared in any way. I have never noticed any of that being taught at the church I attend. Surely only fools would feel that way about science. Granted I have only been attending the church for around 4 months. But they all seem to be very good people that are humble and caring for others no matter their beliefs. I guess I could be wrong, but that is how they come across to me. I do, however wonder what the reaction of my pastor will be when I ask him the questions that I have in mind. His response is going to have a huge impact on how I precede in my beliefs. I wonder will he be honest with me or will he try to fill me with b.s.   It should be an interesting conversation.

Fear might not be entirely the right word. Though some definitely do.

It's more accurate to say that they dislike that they can't control it. In order to be religious you have to think in certain ways about how the world works. Make certain assumptions. The problem is that science shows that this is the wrong way to think. Science essentially does what religion is supposed to do. Tell us how the world works.

However science does it without all of the extra baggage, and we have mountains of undeniable evidence that it works. Whereas religion offers a massive amount of useless baggage, has no way of telling truth from fiction, and demonstrably doesn't work.

This is why when you see theists attack science, they don't attack science itself. They attack the way science does things. They want science to mold itself to fit their worldview.

As an example, this is the basis of creationism. At the Dover trial, the main issue was that creationists wanted to redefine science in the school curriculum, because judges had ruled previously that creationism cannot possibly be considered science. So they shifted their focus to trying to change what science is so that their ideas can be given the legitimacy that they can't receive with science the way it is now. Because nothing they do is scientific.

While he was being cross-examined at the Dover trial, Michael Behe had it pointed out to him by the lawyer on the science side that his new definition of science that he wanted to use was so vague that it would have to include things like alchemy and astrology as well. A point which even Behe was forced to agree to.

This is long, but it's also a great lecture by Kenneth Miller, a well-regarded biologist who was at the trial. He talks about the trial and how religion is trying to misuse science. It also contains a lot of very good information on other scientific matters and evolution in specific.

[Hatter23]

Science works for everyone no matter what culture. Anyone can learn how to use it and benefit from it.  The miracles it has produced are obvious everywhere. People who have access to it have far better lives. And the vast majority of the world's population accept it without having  to "believe in" anything. You don't have to force people to accept cell phones or computers or cars or vaccines or electricity or clean water. People can clearly see the benefits that science can provide. They become normal aspects of everyday life.

great post and I like this part especially.  Your observation that science works for everyone does strike me as a reason that fundamentalists are so afraid of it.  Science does not support that one group of people is better than another.  And this would make any theist who was sure he was special very sad and scared.

Science is great and does work for all. The only thing that is strange to me is the ideal that you believe that people of religion would fear science or would think that they are  special or that it would make them sad or scared in any way. I have never noticed any of that being taught at the church I attend. Surely only fools would feel that way about science. Granted I have only been attending the church for around 4 months. But they all seem to be very good people that are humble and caring for others no matter their beliefs. I guess I could be wrong, but that is how they come across to me. I do, however wonder what the reaction of my pastor will be when I ask him the questions that I have in mind. His response is going to have a huge impact on how I precede in my beliefs. I wonder will he be honest with me or will he try to fill me with b.s.   It should be an interesting conversation.

The majority of churchgoers are people who want to do good. However they've been duped into "wishing" does good...except they call it praying. They also have been led to thing that the desires of some invisible intangible being will have infinite results....eternal reward or punishment....and use that in a subconcious benefit/cost analysis as to what deed to do. This results in people who cause real world suffering to create imaginary benefit. And since that benefit is infinite...they end up regularly causing real world suffering. It might be as small as snubbing a Jewish neighbor because he doesn't accept Jesus Christ....but it is there nontheless. On occasion someone follows this analysis to its conclusion and they kill their children to save their children's souls from infinite punishment.

That's why religion is so dangerous. It leads good people to do bad things.

[nogodsforme]

You are right, riley, there is no real reason for people to be afraid of science. Unless you have a chemistry test and didn't study....

But there are religious people who think that science is out to destroy god or that they can't "believe in" both. In a way, I agree with them, because if you understand science, you realize that there is not really a point to supernatural or magical beliefs.

If you stick around for a while, you will find that people try to tell us that the theory of evolution is not true, that the bible or the quran is full of scientific knowledge, that praying to their particular god in a particular way does result in miracles. These people can't reconcile their religious beliefs with the facts of science and have to attack one to protect the other.

These same people--every single day of the week--  use and benefit from the very science that their paster decries as false on Sunday. They want to pretend that they can talk on a cell phone and drive a car and take vitamins and put meat in the fridge and make popcorn in a microwave, but that good, practical everyday friendly science has nothing to do with that evil anti-god religion-destroying atheistic science.

If a commie peacenik like me can understand that nuclear weapons (bad) and nuclear medicine (good) come from the same physics, and that folks making chemical weapons use the same chemistry as the people that create vaccines, why can't religious people deal with science the same way?

[jtp56]

Science works for everyone no matter what culture. Anyone can learn how to use it and benefit from it.  The miracles it has produced are obvious everywhere. People who have access to it have far better lives. And the vast majority of the world's population accept it without having  to "believe in" anything. You don't have to force people to accept cell phones or computers or cars or vaccines or electricity or clean water. People can clearly see the benefits that science can provide. They become normal aspects of everyday life.

You need to listen to this yourself!!!  After the mocking of intelligent design and the "I'm a genius" bragging, nothing concrete is presented other than something like If paleontologists are arguing amongst themselves if these are reptile/mammals or mammal/reptiles...blah, blah, blah, we're to accept that as proof of evolution.  Again, we are to believe in science by consensus or in this case non-consensus.

[jtp56]

What the!!!!   Christians afraid of science ?!??!?!?!?!?!?!  God created it!!!!!!!!!

[Alzael]

You need to listen to this yourself!!!  After the mocking of intelligent design and the "I'm a genius" bragging, nothing concrete is presented other than something like If paleontologists are arguing amongst themselves if these are reptile/mammals or mammal/reptiles...blah, blah, blah, we're to accept that as proof of evolution.  Again, we are to believe in science by consensus or in this case non-consensus.

Your psychotic rant loses a lot of it's impact when you can't even quote properly.

Not to mention that it's stupid.

[jaimehlers]

You need to listen to this yourself!!!  After the mocking of intelligent design and the "I'm a genius" bragging, nothing concrete is presented other than something like If paleontologists are arguing amongst themselves if these are reptile/mammals or mammal/reptiles...blah, blah, blah, we're to accept that as proof of evolution.  Again, we are to believe in science by consensus or in this case non-consensus.

This didn't even make sense.  Instead of coming up with a trite, not to mention inaccurate, paraphrase of the real situation, that doesn't convince anyone because you're not even making the slightest effort to control your bias, you should take some time to make sure that you're presenting their argument fairly and accurately.

The reason I say intelligent design is a cop-out is because the people who suggest it have no evidence to show that what they're saying is true.  The best they can do is to hold something up as an example and claim that it's too complicated to have come about naturally, that there's no way for the individual parts to have other uses, and thus it has to have been the result of design.  They aren't actually proving that it's designed, they're trying to eliminate or discredit the other options to make the 'design' idea sound reasonable by comparison.  Compared to dishonesty like that, I'll take arguing paleontologists who honestly disagree with each other any day of the week.

[Emily]

You need to listen to this yourself!!!  After the mocking of intelligent design and the "I'm a genius" bragging, nothing concrete is presented other than something like If paleontologists are arguing amongst themselves if these are reptile/mammals or mammal/reptiles...blah, blah, blah, we're to accept that as proof of evolution.[/b]  Again, we are to believe in science by consensus or in this case non-consensus.

What the!!!!   Christians afraid of science ?!??!?!?!?!?!?!  God created it!!!!!!!!!

...and we are to believe that god created science because you said so.

You're a real winner, jtp. You're whole argument here is completely stupid.

[Alzael]

Oh yes jtp, about this.

"After the mocking of intelligent design and the "I'm a genius" bragging, nothing concrete is presented other than something like If paleontologists are arguing amongst themselves if these are reptile/mammals or mammal/reptiles...blah, blah, blah, we're to accept that as proof of evolution.[/b]  Again, we are to believe in science by consensus or in this case non-consensus."

Did you look at the video I posted? If so then I'm sure that you have much to say about all of the evidence presented in it by Kenneth Miller, a Christian biologist.

So what about his evidence is not "concrete"?

In fact he directly addresses your paleontologists rant in the video. Did you watch it? If so then why did you dismiss it so easily, do you actually have a reason?

[Ivellios]

Science works for everyone no matter what culture. Anyone can learn how to use it and benefit from it.  The miracles it has produced are obvious everywhere. People who have access to it have far better lives. And the vast majority of the world's population accept it without having  to "believe in" anything. You don't have to force people to accept cell phones or computers or cars or vaccines or electricity or clean water. People can clearly see the benefits that science can provide. They become normal aspects of everyday life.

You need to listen to this yourself!!!  After the mocking of intelligent design and the "I'm a genius" bragging, nothing concrete is presented other than something like If paleontologists are arguing amongst themselves if these are reptile/mammals or mammal/reptiles...blah, blah, blah, we're to accept that as proof of evolution.  Again, we are to believe in science by consensus or in this case non-consensus.

WTF does evolution have to do with nogodsforme's comment?

God invented science, eh? Well, he didn't want people to know the difference between good and evil[1], didn't want them to build anything unless directed to by him[2] and you think he invented science? If God has his way we wouldn't even exist. It'd just be Adam & Eve living in eternity as with no more brain power than Cattle. After all, like muscles, if you don't use it, you loose it. God demands: Don't think, give me complete obedience.

1.	Garden of Eden
2.	Ark & Tower of Babel

[Brakeman]

Well, he didn't want people to know the difference between good and evil[1], didn't want them to build anything unless directed to by him[2] and you think he invented science? If God has his way we wouldn't even exist. It'd just be Adam & Eve living in eternity as with no more brain power than Cattle. After all, like muscles, if you don't use it, you loose it. God demands: Don't think, give me complete obedience.

1.	Garden of Eden
2.	Ark & Tower of Babel

Truthseeker, You forgot to mention that god didn't want us to cover our naughty bits so he could watch that we don't drop any semen on the ground.  (God is very interested in our jiggly bits!)
Remember, every sperm is sacred and women don't contribute to making a baby, they are just fertile soil in which men plant baby seeds.

[Ivellios]

Truthseeker, You forgot to mention that god didn't want us to cover our naughty bits so he could watch that we don't drop any semen on the ground.  (God is very interested in our jiggly bits!)
Remember, every sperm is sacred and women don't contribute to making a baby, they are just fertile soil in which men plant baby seeds.

Oh yeah. Now that you mention it... he also wants us to "fix" the fact he messed up royally when he made us. So every generation when a baby boy is born, "Give me the knife... wait, what? This isn't sanitary? God didn't say anything about that, so it makes no difference. [slice] Oh stop crying, I only cut off part of your penis."

[nogodsforme]

Science works for everyone no matter what culture. Anyone can learn how to use it and benefit from it.  The miracles it has produced are obvious everywhere. People who have access to it have far better lives. And the vast majority of the world's population accept it without having  to "believe in" anything. You don't have to force people to accept cell phones or computers or cars or vaccines or electricity or clean water. People can clearly see the benefits that science can provide. They become normal aspects of everyday life.

You need to listen to this yourself!!!  After the mocking of intelligent design and the "I'm a genius" bragging, nothing concrete is presented other than something like If paleontologists are arguing amongst themselves if these are reptile/mammals or mammal/reptiles...blah, blah, blah, we're to accept that as proof of evolution.  Again, we are to believe in science by consensus or in this case non-consensus.

What does any of that have to do with....oh forget it. But don't use any science from now on, dude. 

[nogodsforme]

What the!!!!   Christians afraid of science ?!??!?!?!?!?!?!  God created it!!!!!!!!!

And then god carefully hid that science until we humans could discover it on our own, bit by painstaking bit.....riiiight. I guess god wanted us to reeeeally appreciate it, so he wasn't going to actually give us the info straight up. He wasn't going to explain germs or anything like that to the early civilizations-- that might save too many lives and people would not suffer from preventable infections and diseases, and they would be afraid of witches and demons and stupid made-up sh!t like that for thousands of years. If people were afraid andignorant, theywere  more likely to turn to religion.

 God wanted us to get science the old fashioned way, by earning it.[1]

1.	John Houseman ref for the oldsters here.

[velkyn]

great post and I like this part especially.  Your observation that science works for everyone does strike me as a reason that fundamentalists are so afraid of it.  Science does not support that one group of people is better than another.  And this would make any theist who was sure he was special very sad and scared.

Science is great and does work for all. The only thing that is strange to me is the ideal that you believe that people of religion would fear science or would think that they are  special or that it would make them sad or scared in any way. I have never noticed any of that being taught at the church I attend. Surely only fools would feel that way about science. Granted I have only been attending the church for around 4 months. But they all seem to be very good people that are humble and caring for others no matter their beliefs. I guess I could be wrong, but that is how they come across to me. I do, however wonder what the reaction of my pastor will be when I ask him the questions that I have in mind. His response is going to have a huge impact on how I precede in my beliefs. I wonder will he be honest with me or will he try to fill me with b.s.   It should be an interesting conversation.

   

Riley, I’m guessing you know the term “chosen people”.  Jews claimed to be it, Christians claim to be it.  And that certainly would seem to indicate that they think tha they are better than anyone else, that they have some god looking out for them and only them, and that their god’s laws are the only right ones.  Science says that there is no god and that no humans are somehow “better” than the next for some supernatural reason.  You may haven not noticed this superiority in church for one good reason, everyone there is part of the herd and already “know” that they are part of the “elect”. There’s no one to threaten them in church. 

And yes, only fools would feel that way about science. But the religious are often fools(a person lacking in judgment or prudence).  We have them praying for being healed rather than going to a doctor and sometimes people die from that.  You’ve see how strongly people react when shown to be wrong here on the lists, to the point of simply refusing the truth and repeating rather pitiful lies, all in order to retain their beliefs.  I think you might get to be personally involved in this reaction when you question your pastor. I think it will be a very interesting conversation indeed.


Oh and it's hilarious again to see jtp lying some more.

[riley2112]

You would think that jtp would use better arguments than he does, I have found some good one and he just doesn't seem to even want to look for them.
Here is one, what would you or anyone say to this one. Just wondering.
, if the force of gravity were even slightly stronger, all stars would be blue giants; if even slightly weaker, all would be red dwarfs; in neither case could life have developed (Carter 1979, 72). The same goes for the weak and strong nuclear forces; if either had been even slightly different, life, at any rate life of the sort we have, could probably not have developed.
Apparently life is possible only because the universe is expanding at just the rate required to avoid recollapse. At an earlier time, the fine-tuning had to be even more remarkable:
Many see these apparent enormous coincidences as substantiating the theistic claim that the universe has been created by a personal God who intends that there be life and indeed intelligent life; they take fine-tuning as offering the material for a properly restrained theistic argument. These arguments take several versions; perhaps the most successful versions argue that the epistemic probability of these fine-tuning phenomena on theism is much greater than their epistemic probability on the atheistic chance hypothesis. Here the conclusion is not (as such) that probably theism is true, but rather that theism is much better supported by these phenomena than the chance hypothesis is (Swinburne 2003; Collins 1999).

[Dante]

A couple of thoughts come to mind, riley.

One is, what would an undesigned universe look like? How could we differentiate between a designed universe, and one not designed? Merely by our presence? That seems a bit ego-centric to me.

Also,  this "designed" scenario doesnt account for the 99.999999999999999% (probably more) of the universe that is downright inhospitable to human life. Hell, most of the surface area of our earth is unlivable by humans, at least without technology to help us. It also doesn't account for galaxies crashing into one another, solar systems being devoured by black holes, and a myriad of other catastrophic phenomenon that lends itself to the appearance of chance.

[velkyn]

that’s the old  fine-tuning or “goldilocks”  argument, that there has to be a god that wants the universe “perfect” for us.  First, doesn’t prove “your” god.  Also is rather silly to use since we don’t know if humans could live in a universe with slightly different values for various “laws”.  it’s full of baseless assumptions. 

The universe isn’t built for us, we are the result of it and there are lots and lots of places where its purely inimical to live.

[nogodsforme]

The fine-tuning that supposedly allows humans to exist under very narrow condtions does not account for other forms of life. True, humans can't survive in very cold or very hot temperatures, or underwater or in high atmospheric pressure, or without certain vitamins.

But there are all kinds of creatures that live in just those harsh environments. We have found organisms that live in total darkness at the bottom of the sea, some viruses that can survive being frozen and thawed, even some bacteria that can survive on rocks in space. They don't seem to need nearly the amount of "fine-tuning" that we humans do. The earth does not appear to be fine-tuned for us at all--it seems far more likely to have been fine-tuned for viruses, bacteria and insects.

So, did god make the entire vast universe and fine-tune it just for us? Seems like a bit of a waste, since so much of the earth is uninhabitable by humans and most of the universe is actively hostile to us. If the universe was fine-tuned for humans, wouldn't we be able to live comfortably in more of it? The fact that we can only inhabit a tiny little niche of the whole universe makes the argument for fine-tuning a bit weak.

[riley2112]

A couple of thoughts come to mind, riley.

One is, what would an undesigned universe look like? How could we differentiate between a designed universe, and one not designed? Merely by our presence? That seems a bit ego-centric to me.

We could not know what an undesigned universe looks like , being that there are none.  OK , I had to put that in there just for the fact that I am a Christian and that is how most Christians would answer that.(sorry, my humor is sometimes terrible) as to the question, being that we only have this one universe , we have nothing to compare it to. Answering that question would not be possible.