Author Topic: Question [#2616]  (Read 4889 times)

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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2011, 06:49:58 PM »
One more thing, people that fly into building or kill people or try to control people would more than likely do those things anyway,..

No! They wouldn't! The 9 Saudi hijackers of 9/11 were fighting a terrorist war to force the infidels out of Saudi Arabia, their holy land that houses Meca, for purely religious reasons.
It was NOT because they hated our freedoms or any other right wing lie. And it was a successful war for Bin Ladin and his Saudi crew, America did capitulate and removed all us troops out of Saudi Arabia.
Bin Laden claimed he would have been happy to die to remove the unbelieving American infidels from his holy land and if you could have asked him just before he died, he would have undoubtedly smiled at his success.

If you took religion out of the equation, Bin Laden would have wanted more tourist dollars for his country and wouldn't even have started a petition. How simple can it be?
I am remembering a story about the very thing you are saying. However left me look it up to be sure I am remembering correctly. I know how much you all dislike misinformation. I do agree that the event that you are talking about would lead you to believe that it was just about religion. Even without the story, are you saying that the only reason people do crazy things is because they believe in a God?
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2011, 07:30:17 PM »
And it was a successful war for Bin Ladin and his Saudi crew, America did capitulate and removed all us troops out of Saudi Arabia.

We still maintain a presence in Saudi Arabia to this day.
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2011, 07:38:44 PM »

Brakeman:
 I can't prove anything, however , do you think that it is possible that there may have been some hidden reason for 9/11 that had nothing to do with religion?
President George W. Bush froze assets connected to Osama bin Laden, he didn't tell the American people that the terrorist mastermind's late brother was an investor in the president's former oil business in Texas.
President Bush certainly is aware of that his former Saudi sugar daddy is still financing Osama bin Laden's terrorist network. USA Today newspaper reported in 1999 that a year after bin Laden's attacks on US embassies in Africa, Khaled bin Mahfouz and other wealthy Saudis were funneling tens of millions of dollars each year into bin Laden's bank accounts. Five top Saudi businessmen ordered the National Commercial Bank to transfer personal funds and $3 million pilfered from a Saudi pension fund to the Capitol Trust Bank in New York City. The money was deposited into the Islamic Relief and Bless Relief - Islamic charities operating in the US and Great Britain as fronts for Osama bin Laden.
(Rense.com)
something to think about. Everything is not always as it seems.  I have been wrong before, ask anybody on this site. &)
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2011, 07:45:28 PM »
I understand the point you are trying to make, I guess that is just a little to black and white for me. There is a lot of gray area in there. One could say ( and I am not saying that is the way it is) that God gave humans the ability to learn the knowledge to have the flu shot , the computer the cell phone ect. And I am so sorry for calling you a Dude. My mistake totally. ;)


Except the bible clearly shows that he didn't give us that knowledge, nor the ability to learn. Nor did he ever want us to have it. We effecively stole it. Hence Eden.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 07:47:10 PM by Alzael »
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2011, 07:52:42 PM »
I understand the point you are trying to make, I guess that is just a little to black and white for me. There is a lot of gray area in there. One could say ( and I am not saying that is the way it is) that God gave humans the ability to learn the knowledge to have the flu shot , the computer the cell phone ect. And I am so sorry for calling you a Dude. My mistake totally. ;)


Except the bible clearly shows that he didn't give us that knowledge, nor the ability to learn. Nor did he ever want us to have it. We effecively stole it. Hence Eden.
Now wait a min. We both agree the Bible may have things in it that are not true. And if I remember right, you don't believe it at all. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Being that you don't believe it at all, I find it a little confusing that you would use it to make a point. :-\
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2011, 09:12:57 PM »
Now wait a min. We both agree the Bible may have things in it that are not true. And if I remember right, you don't believe it at all. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Being that you don't believe it at all, I find it a little confusing that you would use it to make a point. :-\

It refers directly to your contention that it is possible god gave humans learning capacity so that we could understand things.

Such a contention is directly out of character of the Christian god. Not only is it out of character, it is directly contradicted by the mythology that you are attempting to argue from.

The Christian god does everything in his power to prevent humans from gaining wisdom. It is, in fact, something that he seems to fear. It is also the original sin that we committed.

In other words, one couldn't say that god did that, as long as one is referring to the Christian god.

Also it doesn't fit with the concept of any competent god, since any god that wanted us to understand such things would have designed us with a mind that could understand such things on it's own. As it stands we had to deliberately devise our own methods of looking at the world and processing information to allow us to understand reality, because the minds that we are born with are unsuitable to the task.

As a last point Riley, a person could say a lot of things that might be true, if certain things were a certain way. One could say that god did give us this ability to know things, but first you would have to even show that god exists. Otherwise it's an entirely meaningless supposition made to confirm an existing bias.
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2011, 09:39:42 PM »



Quote
The Christian god does everything in his power to prevent humans from gaining wisdom. It is, in fact, something that he seems to fear. It is also the original sin that we committed.

I do not understand your statement of God preventing humans from gaining wisdom, other than the original sin. With all due respect, could you please explain your reasoning.
.
Quote
As it stands we had to deliberately devise our own methods of looking at the world and processing information to allow us to understand reality, because the minds that we are born with are unsuitable to the task
.
This is something I need to look into as it is above my head at this time. unsuitable to the task,(vain attempt at humor)
Quote
As a last point Riley, a person could say a lot of things that might be true, if certain things were a certain way. One could say that god did give us this ability to know things, but first you would have to even show that god exists. Otherwise it's an entirely meaningless supposition made to confirm an existing bias.

And you are right, until someone can prove that a God, any God, exists then it would be very hard to argue the fact that God gave us anything. I feel like I am playing against a stack deck. :-[ however I do understand the point.  :)
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2011, 09:57:35 PM »



Quote
The Christian god does everything in his power to prevent humans from gaining wisdom. It is, in fact, something that he seems to fear. It is also the original sin that we committed.

I do not understand your statement of God preventing humans from gaining wisdom, other than the original sin. With all due respect, could you please explain your reasoning.

This was the point of the fruit from the tree. Adam and Eve ate it and gained the knowledge of good and evil (among other things), at which point god banished them because they were becoming too much like him.

The Tower of Babel was torn down because humans were trying to reach god. Everytime humans try to gain knowledge or to learn about the world in Christian mythology god smacks them down. Usually very hard.

This is why Christian mythology centers around trusting everything to god. The bible says to give yourself over fully, to trust all of your choices to him. It's why people are reffered to as sheep and lambs.

The core of the teachings of Christianity, especially the bible, is th at we are supposed to be gods little bitches. It's why faith (ideas without evidence) is considered to be the hightest virtue. Because Christians are supposed to be stupid and ignorant. It's the entire foundation of the mythology.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2011, 10:09:20 PM »
Alzael: Wow.
I never thought about it in that way. The very thought of it has left me speechless. This is something that I need to give some serious thought to. Thank you for explaining your reasoning to me.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2011, 10:18:21 AM »
I am one that lives and lets live. If you believe in a God that is all loving . I am OK with that , If you believe in a God that is all about fire and brimstone. That is your right. If you believe that no God exists and that all thing happen just because it does. That to is your right. At this time I believe in a God that created all. I use to believe in a God that was all good and that was not to long ago. ( like a couple of weeks) It would be nice if everyone was right. But you and I both know they are not. You may be right and no God exists. We don't really know. It is not going to make me feel one way or the other about anyone as to rather they believe in my God , Their God , or no God at all.
Unfortatenly for the theists, there is no evidence to support them and plenty of evidence to support me.  To say that they are equal is false.  If I said that taking a spoonful of rhubarb juice would cure cancer, would you believe me or would you demand evidence?  Is my claim harmful?  It could be, if it makes people ignore real treatments.

Quote
As time goes on and I come in contact with more information I may not believe in a God either, At this time it is hard to tell what the future may bring. ( I guess if I wanted to know I could look in the bible. ;) Got to keep that humor thing going. I just don't want to judge people on a belief that I don't understand. And how can anyone understand truly what my belief means to me or your belief means to you. But to bunch everyone up and make believe that they believe and act the same is absurd. Just common reason would make that a true statement.
IMO, you can understand these beliefs and why people have them.  Humans want answers and we what to know what makes things happen so we can adjust for it.  We seem to be built to see “intent” in everything so we can do this.  And this seems to create the need for creating gods that control the world, the puff of breeze that someone might claim as a “sign” etc. 

No one is saying that all theist act exactly the same for the same reasons, but we do know that they indeed do things solely because of their religion, as has been pointed out to you. 

Quote
The very thing of all people believing different is the main reason that knowledge continues to grow. People trying to prove others wrong brings new knowledge to us all. OK, prove me wrong , just don't make me look like a terrorist in the process.

Quote
One more thing, people that fly into building or kill people or try to control people would more than likely do those things anyway, If they didn't blame it on a god telling them to do it , then they would blame it on something else. People are who they are. I believe in a God but if I heard a voice telling me to blow up a building, you are still not going to hear about Riley blowing up a building on the 6:00 news. I know you are not going to tell me that there are no criminal out there that don't believe in a god, are you

No one is also saying all theists are terrorists. I will say that religion enables terrorists because it gives them divine approval for horrific acts.  Will all terrorism stop if religion vanishes? No, but it gives one less reason to declare an “us” and a “them”.  You may be sensible enough to ignore voices in your head but others aren’t and religion gives them a reason to believe that voice and obey it.  As I’ve said before, Riley, good people make up good gods and ignore the evil nonsense in the bible.  Bad people do the same but take the evil nonsense in the bible as something that their god approves of. 
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2011, 11:00:57 AM »
The Christian god does everything in his power to prevent humans from gaining wisdom. It is, in fact, The Tower of Babel was torn down because humans were trying to reach god. Everytime humans try to gain knowledge or to learn about the world in Christian mythology god smacks them down. Usually very hard.

Small correction, here: Genesis doesn't say that the tower was destroyed.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2011, 06:16:29 PM »
The Christian god does everything in his power to prevent humans from gaining wisdom. It is, in fact, The Tower of Babel was torn down because humans were trying to reach god. Everytime humans try to gain knowledge or to learn about the world in Christian mythology god smacks them down. Usually very hard.

Small correction, here: Genesis doesn't say that the tower was destroyed.

True. To correct god scattered humanity to the four winds and confused their languages.

Alzael: Wow.
I never thought about it in that way. The very thought of it has left me speechless. This is something that I need to give some serious thought to. Thank you for explaining your reasoning to me.

Take a look at what it says about the Tower.

And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech1.  And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.  And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar.  And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.2  And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children built.  And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do; and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.3  Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.4  So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.5

1. All of humanity was previously together and united.

2. They decided to build a tower to reach heaven as a symbol of what they could accomplish together.

3. God sees that humans are gathered together and united and that together they have the power to accomplish anything. He outright states that mankind can now accomplish anything they desire to work toawrds.

4.So god changes their languages so that they can no longer communicate and work together.

5.He then breaks up the unified humanity and sends them off in every direction so that manking can never gather together in unity again.

And all of this is simply because they wanted to build a symbol of what humans could do if they tried. Humanity united was a threat to god himself, so he tried to sabotage it and set us against each other.

Consider also, the bible never once mentions free will, but constantly mentions obedience and how everything happens according to his will, including whether you believe in him or not.
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2011, 06:36:11 PM »
The words "free will" are not used, but the fact that we are free to choose whether to serve Him or not is the theme throughout.

Joshua 24:15--And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD

Deuteronomy 30:19--I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and acursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely

 That is not what is important to me at this time. I am confused about God wanting to keep me stupid. Something about that just does not settle right with me.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2011, 07:15:31 PM »
Riley...It is only stupid to sit obediently and avoid questioning.  So, continue to ask the toughest questions, and continue to dig beneath the surface of what you have been told to think.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2011, 07:16:20 PM »
The words "free will" are not used, but the fact that we are free to choose whether to serve Him or not is the theme throughout.

Joshua 24:15--And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD

Deuteronomy 30:19--I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and acursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely

Biblical contradictions are interesting aren't they?

"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9

"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22

Keep in mind that your quotes are from humans talking about god (so were most of mine), not god himself, so of course they say that choice exists.

However look at his actions. In the thessalonians quote he deliberately makes people disbelieve in him. In Exodus he forces Pharoah to refuse Moses so that he can punish Egypt and show them how powerful he is. He outright tells his followers that if they do not obey his word he will punish them. Clearly free will does not exist with him.

There's also the fact that free will is a logical impossibility with this god existing, but that wasn't really part of the point.


 That is not what is important to me at this time. I am confused about God wanting to keep me stupid. Something about that just does not settle right with me.

That's good. It's something that a person should find disturbing. It is however one of the bibles primary messages throughout.
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Online screwtape

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2011, 07:58:04 PM »
The words "free will" are not used, but the fact that we are free to choose whether to serve Him or not is the theme throughout.

I once heard a Saudi citizen brag about how they had free speech in Arabia.  He said you could say whatever you wanted.  Of course, if you said the wrong things, there would be punishment.  He missed the point that that is the opposite of free speech.

Similarly, there are dire, eternal consequences for not choosing to serve yhwh.  So is it really freedom to choose? 

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Offline Iamrational

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2011, 08:00:04 PM »

1)If your two toddlers were hit by a car and had serious internal injuries, would you want them to be taken to
a)a church where the anti-evolution pastor can pray for the children to be magically knit back together by Jesus (or your preferred diety);
or
b) a hospital where there are atheist doctors trained in evolution-based biological science

2) When deciding whether to eat a particular food, do you
a)open up the bible (or your preferred sacred text) and find the part that relates closest to the food you want to eat and do whatever it says;
or
b) rely on the secular governmental......

I have to +1 this because it is so plain and simple. It doesn't discount religion, but it does something more powerful in someone's mind. It requires that the supposed fanatic choose between faith and logic/reasoning. I love it. It ends the science vs. faith argument before it even started. The dying child question nails it best. So in comes down to convenience. When science saves your dying baby it is very convenient. Oh wait I have to throw this in to be facetious, it is a miracle! However, when science steps in the way of faith based thinking, it is a bunch of horse crap that doesn't add up, will change it's mind, doesn't apply a million years ago( my favorite from the creationist argument), and so on. Well said though.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2011, 09:23:24 PM »
And it was a successful war for Bin Ladin and his Saudi crew, America did capitulate and removed all us troops out of Saudi Arabia.

We still maintain a presence in Saudi Arabia to this day.

Citation seriously needed..
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2011, 09:28:12 PM »

Brakeman:
 I can't prove anything, however , do you think that it is possible that there may have been some hidden reason for 9/11 that had nothing to do with religion? ..

I don't think that's a reasonable possibility. How could you convince otherwise rational men to be suicide bombers while chanting "Bush's Money!" instead of "Allah Akbar!".

Think about it..
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2011, 09:29:59 PM »
And it was a successful war for Bin Ladin and his Saudi crew, America did capitulate and removed all us troops out of Saudi Arabia.

We still maintain a presence in Saudi Arabia to this day.

Citation seriously needed..

I don't know what Jayb meant, but according to Wikipedia the 64th Air Expeditionary Group is still there at the very least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_withdrawal_from_Saudi_Arabia
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2011, 09:39:52 PM »

1)If your two toddlers were hit by a car and had serious internal injuries, would you want them to be taken to
a)a church where the anti-evolution pastor can pray for the children to be magically knit back together by Jesus (or your preferred diety);
or
b) a hospital where there are atheist doctors trained in evolution-based biological science

2) When deciding whether to eat a particular food, do you
a)open up the bible (or your preferred sacred text) and find the part that relates closest to the food you want to eat and do whatever it says;
or
b) rely on the secular governmental......

I have to +1 this because it is so plain and simple. It doesn't discount religion, but it does something more powerful in someone's mind. It requires that the supposed fanatic choose between faith and logic/reasoning. I love it. It ends the science vs. faith argument before it even started. The dying child question nails it best. So in comes down to convenience. When science saves your dying baby it is very convenient. Oh wait I have to throw this in to be facetious, it is a miracle! However, when science steps in the way of faith based thinking, it is a bunch of horse crap that doesn't add up, will change it's mind, doesn't apply a million years ago( my favorite from the creationist argument), and so on. Well said though.
Not saying that I totally disagree. I just think this can be turned around. Example:
A nonbeliever is at the hospital with his child and the doctor tells you there is nothing else that can be done. Does the nonbelieve  simply say OK, or does he get on his knees and pray for the life of his child to a God he doesn't believe in.

I believed it was all plain and simply too. I am finding out that nothing is simply at all, nothing.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2011, 09:40:44 PM »

I don't know what Jayb meant, but according to Wikipedia the 64th Air Expeditionary Group is still there at the very least.

Well, you're right!, seems we did leave a few there.  Bin Laden wasn't completely successful, just mostly so.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2011, 09:47:07 PM »
Not saying that I totally disagree. I just think this can be turned around. Example:
A nonbeliever is at the hospital with his child and the doctor tells you there is nothing else that can be done. Does the nonbelieve  simply say OK, or does he get on his knees and pray for the life of his child to a God he doesn't believe in.

I believed it was all plain and simply too. I am finding out that nothing is simply at all, nothing.

Most likely he goes to get a second opinion. Or tries to find another medical option that wasn't considered. Or spends as much time with his child as he can, making memories and ensuring her remaining time is happy.

All of which are infinitely more useful than the time spent praying.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline jetson

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2011, 10:01:25 PM »
Not saying that I totally disagree. I just think this can be turned around. Example:
A nonbeliever is at the hospital with his child and the doctor tells you there is nothing else that can be done. Does the nonbelieve  simply say OK, or does he get on his knees and pray for the life of his child to a God he doesn't believe in.

I believed it was all plain and simply too. I am finding out that nothing is simply at all, nothing.

When all medical avenues are exhausted, we would make the best of whatever time we had left, we would cry, we would laugh, we would hug and kiss.  We are humans, and we don't need imaginary places or false hopes to shield us from the pains that this planet brings to its inhabitants.

When I'm watching Animal Planet, and a pride of lions attacks and kills a large water buffalo, I feel amazed and sad, shocked and relieved, and all sorts of different feelings about what is happening.  I feel sad for the buffalo, I feel happy that the lions have food, and I recognize that this is simply how things work.  The world is both cruel and beautiful, and if there were an actual god running the show, I would certainly wonder WTF it was trying to do.

Offline Iamrational

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2011, 10:07:05 PM »
Not saying that I totally disagree. I just think this can be turned around. Example:
A nonbeliever is at the hospital with his child and the doctor tells you there is nothing else that can be done. Does the nonbelieve  simply say OK, or does he get on his knees and pray for the life of his child to a God he doesn't believe in.

I believed it was all plain and simply too. I am finding out that nothing is simply at all, nothing.

Thanks for the reply. This one can't be turned around with the same effect. The non believer (at least any here I imagine) is not going to hit the floor and start begging Jesus, we know it doesn't work. It is interesting how 1 situational question can blow this whole game up. It forces you and all believers to put your money where your mouth is. I am not trying to be critical. Just a matter of fact. I agree with your decision as well. Your family is dying and needs help, you have the option, you know prayer works and you know He will not fail you. So in that critical moment how is your TRUE belief in Christ shown, you say uh sorry Jesus brother man, I am off to the hospital, I will catch you on the flip side. Makes sense to me. I would do the same just without the coming to Jesus conversation on the side. Do you know what I call someone who chooses the trained hands of a doctor over an imaginary god (well besides rational of course)? A Doubter. If you are not a doubter explain why you wouldn't just pray. If you are a doubter, we are getting somewhere. You can't trust imaginary god with your dying or sick child and you shouldn't commit so much of your time and money to such fictional concepts.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2011, 10:14:22 PM »
Not saying that I totally disagree. I just think this can be turned around. Example:
A nonbeliever is at the hospital with his child and the doctor tells you there is nothing else that can be done. Does the nonbeliever  simply say OK, or does he get on his knees and pray for the life of his child to a God he doesn't believe in.

No we wouldn't because we would always know we would be referring to a man-made superstition.

If your car broke down on the freeway would you try to text Santa Claus a message to bring you a new one? Why not? Wouldn't you be desperate enough to? What would it hurt? Don't millions of others believe in him?
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2011, 11:49:37 PM »
Brakeman:  Really?
Quote
In the quiet of the night inside their own heads, they all know how they would respond to these scenarios, no matter what they say in an internet forum. They may not be honest with us, but they have to be honest with themselves.
Really? I some how think that this affects all people. Granted I have no evidence to back this up , except the things I have seen. I didn't expect any body to admit anything to me. But to tell me that you know what you would or would not do in that matter, unless you have been there is not an honest responces. Or at least I don't believe it.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2011, 11:50:51 PM »
I am sorry for the spelling.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Question [#2616]
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2011, 12:09:00 AM »
A nonbeliever is at the hospital with his child and the doctor tells you there is nothing else that can be done. Does the nonbelieve  simply say OK, or does he get on his knees and pray for the life of his child to a God he doesn't believe in.

If the God of the bible exists, then God stood by and did nothing while the child contracted whatever the illness was in the first place... all the while with the power to stop it.  Why would anyone pray to that God?   

Also, the human instinct to ask for help when we need it is very powerful.  As we get older and move out on our own, and face situations where we know that nothing can be done, that instinct to ask for help doesn't just go away.  When your child is dying, that instinct to ask for help is still there, whether someone is listening to it or not.     

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT