Question [#2616]

[pianodwarf]

Hi there,
 
I really like what your website has to say, although I am not an athiest...yet.
 
It's probable my question/comment has been asked before and to be fair, I have not read your entire website so forgive me if you dealt with my question on another Chapter:
 
In Chapter 5 you claim that God will not heal amputees like He healed that young girl with rabies. You also suggest an experiment of gathering millions of people together and praying for an amputee's limb to grow back. But then, you jump to claiming 'even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.'  Because you have not actually tested the claim of getting millions of people to pray for an amputee's limb to grow back, how can you assert nothing will happen? Along the same line, how do you know that amputees are actually praying for a new limb from God other than just assuming they do?
 
It seems that you are glossing over these important issues which need to be dealt with. I am looking forward to your response.
 
Thanks for your time!

[Nick]

I think we can assume that nothing will happen because...wait for it...God is imaginary.

Also, you think that out of all the history of those who are amputees not one has asked to be cured?  Seems unlikely also.

There is NO proof for an imaginary sky daddy.  That is the bottom line.

[velkyn]

Hi there,
 
I really like what your website has to say, although I am not an athiest...yet.
 
It's probable my question/comment has been asked before and to be fair, I have not read your entire website so forgive me if you dealt with my question on another Chapter:
 
In Chapter 5 you claim that God will not heal amputees like He healed that young girl with rabies. You also suggest an experiment of gathering millions of people together and praying for an amputee's limb to grow back. But then, you jump to claiming 'even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.'  Because you have not actually tested the claim of getting millions of people to pray for an amputee's limb to grow back, how can you assert nothing will happen?

because the bible says that with one person it should happen.  Millions should guarantee it since we should have at least one Christian doing it "right".  However, we can see that none of them have any of the powers that JC claimed they would  have nor do we see this god answering quickly and positively as the bible claims he will.   

Along the same line, how do you know that amputees are actually praying for a new limb from God other than just assuming they do?

How do you know they don't?  I would suggest that you go to a local VA hospital and ask them if they prayed that they wouldn't lose their limb when it was hanging by a rag from an IED or a mortar?  To try to claim "but what if they didn't pray for it" seems to be utterly disingenous and ignorant.  Christian constatly claim that huge numbers of the world's population are Christians. If that claim is true, do you really think that no amputee was a Christian or didn't pray?   What's next, claiming that they didn't pray in the "right" way?   
 

It seems that you are glossing over these important issues which need to be dealt with. I am looking forward to your response. Thanks for your time!

It seems to me that you are reaching desperately to come up with any ridiculous excuse you can for your god's impotence. 

[Chronos]

In Chapter 5 you claim that God will not heal amputees like He healed that young girl with rabies. You also suggest an experiment of gathering millions of people together and praying for an amputee's limb to grow back. But then, you jump to claiming 'even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.'  Because you have not actually tested the claim of getting millions of people to pray for an amputee's limb to grow back, how can you assert nothing will happen?

By reverse implication, how can you assert that it will accomplish anything at all?

I wasn't aware that prayer only worked when millions engaged in the same exact prayer at the same exact moment. Is that what it takes? Really? Nothing in the user manual even implies that prayer only works by the millions. Christianity is supposed to be about the relationship between the individual and god, not a mob of millions and god.

But, yes, if you are wanting to be scientific and statistical, then we must admit we haven't gathered millions together to pray for the same thing. However, massive evidence of tens of thousands of believers getting together to pray for the same thing hasn't accomplished what they desired, either. Not sure how 5x the crowd will make any significant difference.

Along the same line, how do you know that amputees are actually praying for a new limb from God other than just assuming they do?

Again, by reverse implication, how do you know that none of them have prayed for a new limb?

 

It seems that you are glossing over these important issues which need to be dealt with. I am looking forward to your response.

Perhaps if you explain why these issues are important, we will be able to understand you.
 

[Ivellios]

I wasn't aware that prayer only worked when millions engaged in the same exact prayer at the same exact moment. Is that what it takes? Really? Nothing in the user manual even implies that prayer only works by the millions. Christianity is supposed to be about the relationship between the individual and god, not a mob of millions and god.

But, yes, if you are wanting to be scientific and statistical, then we must admit we haven't gathered millions together to pray for the same thing. However, massive evidence of tens of thousands of believers getting together to pray for the same thing hasn't accomplished what they desired, either. Not sure how 5x the crowd will make any significant difference.

Because LoadofBull 9:11 says, "Unless you gather a multitude in order of the millions, to pray for the exact same thing, at the exact same time, I, YHWW the Lord your God, will Not be answering a single prayer at All."

[Chronos]

So, it always requires one more prayer than present to actually achieve a miracle. Should have known.

[Spit]

In 18 years attending the A of G I never saw even a hangnail cured. An old guy ran over a child and killed her in the parking lot though. God works in mysterious ways right. 

[Hatter23]

Hi there,
 
I really like what your website has to say, although I am not an athiest...yet.
 
It's probable my question/comment has been asked before and to be fair, I have not read your entire website so forgive me if you dealt with my question on another Chapter:
 
In Chapter 5 you claim that God will not heal amputees like He healed that young girl with rabies. You also suggest an experiment of gathering millions of people together and praying for an amputee's limb to grow back. But then, you jump to claiming 'even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.'  Because you have not actually tested the claim of getting millions of people to pray for an amputee's limb to grow back, how can you assert nothing will happen? Along the same line, how do you know that amputees are actually praying for a new limb from God other than just assuming they do?
 
It seems that you are glossing over these important issues which need to be dealt with. I am looking forward to your response.
 
Thanks for your time!

Sorry that boil down to the fact that 14 billion have ever lived on this planet, 7 billion are dead. A great deal of the were theist...lets say around 85%. It would folly to say that at least half prayed at some point not to die or not have a relative die....yet 7 billion are dead. It doesn't take that much of a leap that this would extend to missing limbs.

[ungod]

I wasn't aware that prayer only worked when millions engaged in the same exact prayer at the same exact moment. Is that what it takes? Really? Nothing in the user manual even implies that prayer only works by the millions. Christianity is supposed to be about the relationship between the individual and god, not a mob of millions and god.

But, yes, if you are wanting to be scientific and statistical, then we must admit we haven't gathered millions together to pray for the same thing. However, massive evidence of tens of thousands of believers getting together to pray for the same thing hasn't accomplished what they desired, either. Not sure how 5x the crowd will make any significant difference.

Because LoadofBull 9:11 says, "Unless you gather a multitude in order of the millions, to pray for the exact same thing, at the exact same time, I, YHWW the Lord your God, will Not be answering a single prayer at All."

God ALWAYS answers prayer - it's just that the answer is ALWAYS "NO!"

 

[grant]

Nobody is glossing over anything, I think you're intentionally being a prat.

In Chapter 5 you claim that God will not heal amputees like He healed that young girl with rabies

Chapter 5 DOES NOT SAY god healed any young girl with rabies. NO SUCH CLAIM WAS MADE. Get that out of your head for a start.

Because you have not actually tested the claim of getting millions of people to pray for an amputee's limb to grow back, how can you assert nothing will happen? Along the same line, how do you know that amputees are actually praying for a new limb from God other than just assuming they do?

Millions of people prayed to end WWII but it took 6 long years to happen. Millions of people pray every day for the same thing - food and water on the table. Does god answer these prayers asked for by millions? Seems it would be pretty easy for god to throw a bit of rain over the desert, spread a few seeds around, but does he? Na. Why not? Because he doesn't exist my friend, millions or billions of prayers ain't gonna change that. And if you can't see it you're a poorer person for it.

You're obviously the prayin' type. What is it you pray for? Pathetic little things to make your life better? Are you seriously saying that no amputee has ever prayed to get their limb back? Are you so selfish to not recognise the impact of losing a limb? The idea that no amputee has ever prayed to get it back is ridiculious in the extreme. Your thoughts that they may never have says more about you than I'm sure you'd like to admit.

[RobotBeeps]

'You're obviously the prayin' type. What is it you pray for? Pathetic little things to make your life better? Are you seriously saying that no amputee has ever prayed to get their limb back? Are you so selfish to not recognise the impact of losing a limb? The idea that no amputee has ever prayed to get it back is ridiculious in the extreme. Your thoughts that they may never have says more about you than I'm sure you'd like to admit."

Wow, such disdain so early into the conversation!

Doesn't any claim require evidence? There is no evidence that God grows back the limb of an amputee after prayer, sure I am certainly aware of this.  Surely this website would have mentioned if it had, in fact, performed any kind of experiment to that effect. But how is this evidence against God? Maybe Christianity, but not God.

I am not a Christian by any means, but I also an not an athiest. I know any claim needs evidence. If you can't back up your claim, you shouldn't claim it. Because this website has not yet succeeded in getting 'millions' of people to pray over one specific amputees limbs, the claim that it 'wouldn't happen because there is no God' remains unproven. Certainly if they suceeded in this experiment it may disprove Christianity, but I am not arguing the Christian faith. On the other hand, you are arguing not only against the Christian God,  but any God entirely.

That's a pretty big leap without evidence.

[RobotBeeps]

Hi there,
 
I really like what your website has to say, although I am not an athiest...yet.
 
It's probable my question/comment has been asked before and to be fair, I have not read your entire website so forgive me if you dealt with my question on another Chapter:
 
In Chapter 5 you claim that God will not heal amputees like He healed that young girl with rabies. You also suggest an experiment of gathering millions of people together and praying for an amputee's limb to grow back. But then, you jump to claiming 'even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.'  Because you have not actually tested the claim of getting millions of people to pray for an amputee's limb to grow back, how can you assert nothing will happen? Along the same line, how do you know that amputees are actually praying for a new limb from God other than just assuming they do?
 
It seems that you are glossing over these important issues which need to be dealt with. I am looking forward to your response.
 
Thanks for your time!

Sorry that boil down to the fact that 14 billion have ever lived on this planet, 7 billion are dead. A great deal of the were theist...lets say around 85%. It would folly to say that at least half prayed at some point not to die or not have a relative die....yet 7 billion are dead. It doesn't take that much of a leap that this would extend to missing limbs.

It may disprove Christianity, but not God.

[RobotBeeps]

 How do you know they don't?  I would suggest that you go to a local VA hospital and ask them if they prayed that they wouldn't lose their limb when it was hanging by a rag from an IED or a mortar?  To try to claim "but what if they didn't pray for it" seems to be utterly disingenous and ignorant.  Christian constatly claim that huge numbers of the world's population are Christians. If that claim is true, do you really think that no amputee was a Christian or didn't pray?   What's next, claiming that they didn't pray in the "right" way?   

I don't know that they didn't. But I am not making the claim that I do know. That is the difference. And because this website has failed to provide (at least as far as I have read) an actual example of an amputee praying for a new limb and not getting it, I am solid in my position.
 
It seems to me that you are reaching desperately to come up with any ridiculous excuse you can for your god's impotence.
[/quote]

I am not desparate, on the contrary, I am fine with whatever the truth may be. I am not a Christian and I think it wrong for you to assume so.

[pianodwarf]

Hi, RobotBeeps, welcome to WWGHA.

'You're obviously the prayin' type. What is it you pray for? Pathetic little things to make your life better? Are you seriously saying that no amputee has ever prayed to get their limb back? Are you so selfish to not recognise the impact of losing a limb? The idea that no amputee has ever prayed to get it back is ridiculious in the extreme. Your thoughts that they may never have says more about you than I'm sure you'd like to admit."

Wow, such disdain so early into the conversation!

Sorry about that, but atheists do tend to be pretty angry about things.  Sometimes it can be difficult to remain civil, even if one prefers to do so (and, admittedly, some don't).

Doesn't any claim require evidence?

Pretty much.  I can think of a few exceptions to that, such as the laws of logic, but generally, yes, claims require evidence.

There is no evidence that God grows back the limb of an amputee after prayer, sure I am certainly aware of this.  Surely this website would have mentioned if it had, in fact, performed any kind of experiment to that effect. But how is this evidence against God? Maybe Christianity, but not God.

The site is, in fact, specifically discussing the Christian deity, as you'll see if you read the main essay of the site.  It is not an argument against deities in general.

Because this website has not yet succeeded in getting 'millions' of people to pray over one specific amputees limbs, the claim that it 'wouldn't happen because there is no God' remains unproven.

That's a fair point, but the problem is, if you were to try to find one million people, even devoutly sincere believers, to pray for an amputee to get his leg back, you would have difficulty finding very many takers.  People generally know, inherently, that praying for an amputee's leg to be restored is a ridiculous and futile act.

Certainly if they suceeded in this experiment it may disprove Christianity, but I am not arguing the Christian faith. On the other hand, you are arguing not only against the Christian God,  but any God entirely.

That's not correct, as I said -- the argument is only against the God of the Bible.  It doesn't apply to, for example, Hindu or Native American deities.

[Aaron123]

Doesn't any claim require evidence? There is no evidence that God grows back the limb of an amputee after prayer, sure I am certainly aware of this.  Surely this website would have mentioned if it had, in fact, performed any kind of experiment to that effect. But how is this evidence against God? Maybe Christianity, but not God.

This website is targeting the god of christianity.  If it does disprove that particular god, then it accomplished its goal.  The god of deism(which I assume you're talking about) is not dealt with on the main site (though it has been talked about several times in the fourms)

I am not a Christian by any means, but I also an not an athiest. I know any claim needs evidence. If you can't back up your claim, you shouldn't claim it. Because this website has not yet succeeded in getting 'millions' of people to pray over one specific amputees limbs, the claim that it 'wouldn't happen because there is no God' remains unproven.

How about arranging this setup yourself?  If you can gather a million people in prayer, and it results in the healing of an amputee, then surely that'll refute the argument.

Certainly if they suceeded in this experiment it may disprove Christianity, but I am not arguing the Christian faith. On the other hand, you are arguing not only against the Christian God,  but any God entirely.

That's a pretty big leap without evidence.

So what is the evidence of your god?  Can you back up your claims that god exists?

[velkyn]

I am not desparate, on the contrary, I am fine with whatever the truth may be. I am not a Christian and I think it wrong for you to assume so.

then what are you, RB?  You are so insistent that you aren't a Christian.  However, you certainly are intent on defending a god that certainly seems like the Christian one, one that claims to be omnipotent and is anything but.  You come up with ridiculous excuses on why this god fails so badly.   

On this forum we have many theists come on insisting that they "aren't" this and such.  However, as I watch them and discuss thing with them, it turns out that they are.  They just don't like to be called a Christian since Christians have so thoroughly shat all over that word by their actions and by the impotence of that god. 

You have yet to show that anyone isn't praying "right" to get a positive result for a healing of an amputation.  All you've done so far is say "well, you haven't got a million people to pray for an amputee so my god nonsense is still safe".   A million people or one, there is still no healing being done and thus, this god of the Christians is not as claimed by the bible.

[Graybeard]

In Chapter 5 you claim that God will not heal amputees […]But then, you jump to claiming 'even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.'  […]How can you assert nothing will happen?

The one million people, is what is known as a “throw-away line” This is where a person, relying on the experiences of others makes a bold and sweeping statement. As an example, consider, “Even if you asked everyone in America, the vast majority would be opposed to the reintroduction of slavery.”  Obviously, that experiment has never been done – you may wish to ask yourself if we could, nevertheless, assume, accurately, the answer.
 

Along the same line, how do you know that amputees are actually praying for a new limb from God other than just assuming they do?

Well, there are plenty of amputees in the world and there are plenty of superstitious types, so one can assume that it is likely that either an amputee o one of his family have prayed in this way.

Just on numbers alone, I think you would find it ridiculous if I said, “No amputee or any of his friends and family have ever prayed for the regrowth of his missing limb.”
 

It seems that you are glossing over these important issues which need to be dealt with[…]

I think it is justifiable to gloss over them.

On the matter of one million people etc; God is not impressed by numbers and is not interested in democracy: nowhere in the Bible does it suggest democracy as a form of government. Indeed, the only form of government would seem to be a theocracy.

The next point is that godbotherers of all shades tend to believe that “My god has a Plan!” If this is so, and in the case of the Judeo-Christian god, it is (see Revelation) then God has already decided what will happen to us all.

This being the case, to suggest that he changes his mind is a little arrogant and stupid – how could you ever know better than a god?

Anyway, have a look on Google Images for an amputee – pray for him or her and see what happens.

[nogodsforme]

I am willing to bet any amount of money that the vast majority of people who have lost a limb wake up each morning wishing/hoping/praying that it was just a terrible dream.[1] If there was a god-being that knows about this situation, and is powerful enough to make the amputee's missing limb grow back, but refuses to do it, what does that say about that being?

1) That being is a d!ck and certainly does not deserve worship. Scorn and hatred, maybe, but not worship.
2) That being is imaginary and is therefore unable to do anything, good or bad. Again, not worthy of worship.

1.

I have a friend who lost both legs in a bus accident and my father and uncle both lost their feet to diabetes. None of them ever got their limbs back. Then again, none of them ever prayed to the right god the right way at the right time with the right feeling in their hearts. Because nobody has ever prayed the right way, and nobody ever will.

[screwtape]

But how is this evidence against God?

It is not meant to be a silver bullet to disprove all concepts of god. 

There is a certian type of xian who attempts to justify his or her god beliefs by claiming that people are miraculously healed of various afflictions by divine intervention.  The afflictions may include cancer, diabetes, coma, heart conditions, tooth decay, halitosis, spastic colon, etc.  We frequently hear anecdotes about how some church group prayed for some guy and the next day he was completely healed. 

If you are not that kind of xian, then the question does not apply to you. 

If you are, there are several problems with this kind of reasoning.  First, data shows many of these types of afflictions sometimes "clear up" without any kind of prayers.  It seems to be a natural response or a misdiagnosis.  Second, people of all religions make the same claims.  And last, there is a whole class of ailments that are never, ever cured by prayer or naturally. 

People never regrow lost limbs.  Lost eyes never regrow in the empty sockets.  Retarded people never gain normal mental capacity. Alzheimers and Dementia sufferers never recover.  Old people never rejuvenate. 

This has clear implications about a god that supposedly heals people.  It leaves you only a few conclusions about such a god.

[RobotBeeps]

I am not a Christian by any means, but I also an not an athiest. I know any claim needs evidence. If you can't back up your claim, you shouldn't claim it. Because this website has not yet succeeded in getting 'millions' of people to pray over one specific amputees limbs, the claim that it 'wouldn't happen because there is no God' remains unproven.

How about arranging this setup yourself?  If you can gather a million people in prayer, and it results in the healing of an amputee, then surely that'll refute the argument.

I didn't make the claim so surely I don't need to arrange the setup myself?

Certainly if they suceeded in this experiment it may disprove Christianity, but I am not arguing the Christian faith. On the other hand, you are arguing not only against the Christian God,  but any God entirely.

That's a pretty big leap without evidence.

So what is the evidence of your god?  Can you back up your claims that god exists?
[/quote]

My god is a deistic god. One that I cannot prove to you, only myself. But again, I did not create a website devoted to disproving the Christian god or any god and I am not required to prove that my God exists. I am only pointing out the flaws in the argument on this website. While it does have some great points, I feel certain points are flawed in that they claim something that has yet been unproven.  ie, having a million people pray for a limb to grow back.

[RobotBeeps]

I am not desparate, on the contrary, I am fine with whatever the truth may be. I am not a Christian and I think it wrong for you to assume so.

then what are you, RB?  You are so insistent that you aren't a Christian.  However, you certainly are intent on defending a god that certainly seems like the Christian one, one that claims to be omnipotent and is anything but.  You come up with ridiculous excuses on why this god fails so badly.   

On this forum we have many theists come on insisting that they "aren't" this and such.  However, as I watch them and discuss thing with them, it turns out that they are.  They just don't like to be called a Christian since Christians have so thoroughly shat all over that word by their actions and by the impotence of that god. 

You have yet to show that anyone isn't praying "right" to get a positive result for a healing of an amputation.  All you've done so far is say "well, you haven't got a million people to pray for an amputee so my god nonsense is still safe".   A million people or one, there is still no healing being done and thus, this god of the Christians is not as claimed by the bible.

I assure you that I am not Christian. I was raised as one but never truly accepted it. I merely see a flaw in the argument on this website and thought I would write them. I didn't realize it would be put into a forum. I am willing and desire the truth. I don't see how this site can claim there is no God based on an experiement that THEY HAVE NOT TESTED!!

[RobotBeeps]

I am willing to bet any amount of money that the vast majority of people who have lost a limb wake up each morning wishing/hoping/praying that it was just a terrible dream.[1] If there was a god-being that knows about this situation, and is powerful enough to make the amputee's missing limb grow back, but refuses to do it, what does that say about that being?

1) That being is a d!ck and certainly does not deserve worship. Scorn and hatred, maybe, but not worship.
2) That being is imaginary and is therefore unable to do anything, good or bad. Again, not worthy of worship.

1.

I have a friend who lost both legs in a bus accident and my father and uncle both lost their feet to diabetes. None of them ever got their limbs back. Then again, none of them ever prayed to the right god the right way at the right time with the right feeling in their hearts. Because nobody has ever prayed the right way, and nobody ever will.

I absolutely agree with you. That's why I am not a Christian.

[Dante]

The author of the website doesnt participate in the forums, so there's nothing anyone hear can do about the "error".

There have, however, been experiments to test the validity of the powers of prayer, and the results are unsurprising.

Now, how do you know your god isn't imaginary?

[Brakeman]

NM BM

[jtp56]

How do you know if your ever changing theories have finally gotten it right?

[jaimehlers]

How do you know if your ever changing theories have finally gotten it right?

They aren't "ever-changing".  Most theories are quite stable.

[Dante]

How do you know if your ever changing theories have finally gotten it right?

Testable hypotheses. Objective data. Measurable results. Evidence.

How about your god? Oh, that's right, I almost forgot. You find out when you die. You hope.

[jtp56]

Nah,  Bible hasn't changed.

Science has and will continue too.  Have neutrinos traveled faster than the speed of light?  Blowing Einstein out of the water?   I asked this a long time ago with no answer.  But, this was allegedly observed between CERN and someplace in Italy.

Is your guy Ager all wet?  I asked this a long time ago with no answer and he's your guy (at least last we knew he was an atheist).

Is it Spurgeon, Scofield?

Uniformitarianism or Catastrophic?

Panspermia or evolution?  What does Hawkings believe?

Huh?? and you claim to have it all figured out???   Oh, I forgot, Its science by poll of scientists....whatever "most" scientists believe.    Ahhhh, excuse me!
 
At least the Bible holds true to this day!

[jaimehlers]

Nah,  Bible hasn't changed.

No.  You just don't think it's changed.  And that belief only demonstrates ignorance about the reality of textual analysis and passing stories down through generations.  Go learn about this before you try to claim the Bible has stood unchanged.

At least the Bible holds true to this day!

In other words, you've got nothing.  Science is based on reality, and we improve our methods of observing and explaining reality all the time.  Thus the changes are all in the direction of becoming more accurate.  Care to take a guess at how the Bible has changed since those stories first started being passed down?  Hint, it is not in the direction of becoming more accurate.