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Offline screwtape

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noah's flood discussion thread
« on: November 11, 2011, 08:12:25 AM »
This thread is for non-participants of the debate between C and whatchamean to discuss the debate.
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Offline Nick

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2011, 09:33:31 AM »
Maybe when you are done with that you can debate Roadrunner and Wiley Coyote.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2011, 10:48:04 AM »
welll, we will see some "supah genius" posts, I'm sure  ;D
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 11:08:20 AM by velkyn »
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Offline curiousgirl

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2011, 10:56:16 AM »
C is obviously the one who cites sources and provides proof, while whatchamean ducks, dodges and makes baseless claims. I think we are going to witness a royal ass-handing.  ;D
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Offline Alzael

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2011, 01:23:45 PM »
C is obviously the one who cites sources and provides proof, while whatchamean ducks, dodges and makes baseless claims. I think we are going to witness a royal ass-handing.  ;D

Unlikely. Whatcha is likely to run off by the time they finish their second posts. Theists usually abandon the debates rather swiftly.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2011, 11:10:12 AM »
I expect more dodges from whatchamean than will ever come out of the Brampton Assembly Plant.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2011, 04:23:53 PM »
           

I hope this means that Whatchamean is preparing well and hasn't just chickened out.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 03:34:55 AM »
I hope this means that Whatchamean is preparing well and hasn't just chickened out.

Why, because you were looking forward to hearing about speed evolution?

I contend that all mammalian life evolved from Noah's dog, in a 5 day period. The rest of the animals died from starvation.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2011, 06:56:25 AM »
C should go on with the debate and just assume nonsensical dodges for all of whatchamean's answers. I'd say it wouldn't be any different than the real thing.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 07:56:09 AM »
sorry, everyone, for this pointless waste of time.

Looks like I jumped the gun.  My apologies

« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 08:01:11 AM by screwtape »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2011, 09:37:54 AM »
Bookety Mark.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online jaimehlers

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2011, 09:39:07 AM »
Whatchamean? just posted a long response to something posted in another thread.

This won't end well.

Offline velkyn

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2011, 12:32:45 PM »
I just have to comment, this being one of my favorite theists bits of nonsense.
Rain doesn't have to cause hugh waves. Waves are generally caused by winds or earthquakes, so Noah may not have experienced rough seas as the ark drifted. Mt. Everest is composed of sea sediment and contains marine fossils at the summit. At what time in the distant past Everest was submerged is unknown. Whether the current altitude of Everest is due to uniformitarianism or catastrophism is unknown.
Well, then I guess we have to ignore the claims of your fellow Christians when they claim that the “fountains of the earth” basically ripped apart the crust of the planet to cause the flood.  Gee, could he be lying/wrong?  And the usual ignorance and lies by a creationist about Mt. Everest over and over again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Everest#Geology .  It’s so sad, seeing the willful ignorance, outright lies and pure hypocrisy demonstrated by TrueChristianstm

 
Quote
Core oxygen isotopes may be affected by outside factors which could throw off true readings
always hilarious to see creationists spout words they have no idea the meaning of as if this should make people impressed.  I want to see whatcha explain what this actually means. 
Quote
The Bible doesn't say Noah didn't use metal in the construction of the ark. He may well have. We do know the ancients were master builders. Truthfully, I don't know how many animals and seeds Noah would had to bring on the ark to produce the variety of life we see today. Yeah...I believe it's possible.
Oh yes, when was that pesky flood anyway?  Can whatcha give a date so we know how it compares to when we have evidence for metallurgy to work with such a claim?   And of course he pleads ignorance when he doesn’t know how many animals and plants that Noah would have had to bring on the ark.  Hmm, doesn’t the bible say a certain number of “every” animal? 
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2011, 12:44:37 PM »
Oh yes, when was that pesky flood anyway?  Can whatcha give a date so we know how it compares to when we have evidence for metallurgy to work with such a claim?

Good question.  I don't know what date (if any) whatcha will give, but every other estimate I've seen puts the flood earlier than 2,000 BCE, which would make it, at the latest, a Bronze Age event.  The notion of using bronze to strengthen a wooden boat is comically ridiculous.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Brakeman

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2011, 12:52:04 PM »
Good question.  I don't know what date (if any) whatcha will give, but every other estimate I've seen puts the flood earlier than 2,000 BCE, which would make it, at the latest, a Bronze Age event.  The notion of using bronze to strengthen a wooden boat is comically ridiculous.
Perhaps he could grab me a sample of the firmament too while he's at it. As a metallurgist I'd love to test the tensile strength of a material that can hold all of the heavenly water and the stars above the earth. I'd bet that some good stuff! It'd make steel 4140 look like wet noodle!
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2011, 01:04:33 PM »
The notion of using bronze to strengthen a wooden boat is comically ridiculous.

OK, my bad on this one.  Turns out that bronze actually was used in boatbuilding.  (Still wouldn't help with the Ark, of course, but that's neither here nor there.)
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Ivellios

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2011, 12:29:53 PM »
I was even sent a pic of a modern built "Noah's Ark" and it said how awesome god is and such...

It's so nice to know how awesome god is when it can only be built half size, steel bracing and on top of a barge because it is so not sea worthy.

I know, "It's a kind of magic..."

One dream,
one sword,
one prize,
one goal,

Princes of the Universe, buuuuudy.

Someone had to explain why that rock formation in the mountains of Arrat looked like a boat and what it was doing up there. With the flooding of what is now the Black sea and Persian Gulf on people's recent memory due to Glacier melt after the Ice Age. Once you are able to figure out the pieces of the questions that certain myths were trying to answer, it becomes so simple, like reading a basic arithmatic equation.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2011, 03:31:46 PM »
Worst. Debate. Ever.

17 days it's been going on. Nothing happens.

Then nothing happens again. Slower.

I can't eat any more pop-corn.

Somebody kill me, please.

Other critics' views:

« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 03:34:40 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Hemingway

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 02:39:28 PM »
I take it the debate is over? Nothing posted there since the 24th of November. I was looking forward to the Creationist Rebuttal.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2011, 07:50:52 AM »
^  I am going to give him a few more days.  As I recall, whatcha was planning on being out of the country. I would rather not lock the threads and then have to unlock them again. 
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Offline Historicity

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2011, 10:26:37 AM »
With the flooding of what is now the Black sea and Persian Gulf on people's recent memory due to Glacier melt after the Ice Age.
That's the Ryan and Pitman theory from 1997.  They said there was a 270 ft sea level rise in 300 days about 5600 BCE.  That's 2000 years before ANE[1] myth making.  By 2007 it had been disputed by other geologists that it was 100 ft and happened more like 7400 BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

There are precedents for a legend lasting that long.  The myths of the Germanic people start with the entire Earth covered with ice and after some creation stuff with a giant cow and a giant named Ymir (which looks like immer = German for forever) then a flood of water breaks out of the ice and floods across the world and leaves 2 people standing.  That describes a jöjkullhlaup aka an ice dam which is an event that people living near a glacier sometimes suffer.  So the Germanic people remember the end of the Ice Age when they moved north and lived at the edge of the retreating glacier.  That would be about 7000 BCE to 6000 BCE.  Despite the fact that that doesn't describe a heavy rainfall nor the ocean rising up to take over the land creationists tout that as yet another flood legend constating Genesis.

(In parochial school I was told that the miles deep Noachide Flood froze all the way to the bottom in the winter months of the year that is was on the Earth and left the Ice Age glacier as an aftermath.)

So another Babylonian/Sumerian version is that the Flood was the Demoness of Chaos. Tiamat, and her servant/ally, the Sea Demon, L'th'n (vowels unknown), trying to take over the land but the God of Rain, Bel Marduk, beat them back. 

HP Lovecraft combined L'th'n, aka Leviathan, with another monster sea god, Kaitos (usually known by the Latin spelling Cetus), to make his Cthulhu.

So consider the Burckle Crater discovered in 2006:
It is 18 miles wide where the ocean is over 2 miles deep.  It was discovered because chevrons of tsunami debris in Madagascar and Australia point to it.  The debris dates around 3000 BCE which is the time of the ANE myth making.  It would produce a tsunami followed by a rain storm of the ocean water blasted into space falling back as rain. 

Here's the Wikipedia summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burckle_crater
Here is a formal paper on it:
http://www.earth2class.org/k12/w8_s2007/CRBurckleAbyssalImpactCra%5B1%5D.htm

That is coauthored by Dr. W. Bruce Masse of Los Alamos National Laboratory.  He assembled 175 myths from around the Indian Ocean and said 14 of them agree that there was an solar eclipse as an omen shortly before.  So he dates the Flood to May 10, 2807 BCE exactly.  However, I'd like to point out that Dr Masse is not an ethnologist and, as in the case of the Elder Eddas, an enthusiastic advocate may distort a legend to get what he wants from it.

Of course, old legends do not need a single source.  Similar events even centuries apart become combined in people's minds.  I see that even today where people get modern events wrong by 10 years.

On the other hand, consider that there was once in northern Europe a species -- a people as it were -- of talking bears who made and used tools.  They had culture and cultural relations with human societies.  They, according to legends, founded Berlin and Berne, Switzerland.  They lived in houses and according to one legend, liked to eat porridge for breakfast and go for walks if the porridge was too hot.  I mean considering all these German-Slavic legends of talking bears there must be a scientific origin for it.  It couldn't just be stories.

 1. Ancient Near East

Offline Ivellios

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2011, 06:09:13 PM »

Snip very interesting stuff

So consider the Burckle Crater discovered in 2006:
It is 18 miles wide where the ocean is over 2 miles deep.  It was discovered because chevrons of tsunami debris in Madagascar and Australia point to it.  The debris dates around 3000 BCE which is the time of the ANE myth making.  It would produce a tsunami followed by a rain storm of the ocean water blasted into space falling back as rain. 

I've heard about this as well.

On the other hand, consider that there was once in northern Europe a species -- a people as it were -- of talking bears who made and used tools.  They had culture and cultural relations with human societies.  They, according to legends, founded Berlin and Berne, Switzerland.  They lived in houses and according to one legend, liked to eat porridge for breakfast and go for walks if the porridge was too hot.  I mean considering all these German-Slavic legends of talking bears there must be a scientific origin for it.  It couldn't just be stories.

Yeah, People from other ages didn't make stuff up. They only wrote stuff down what they actually saw. They wrote it down because they felt it was something that future generations needed to know. I'm waiting for this for this to be on 'Ancient Aliens' so I can heckle it even more.

Offline ahmadgulzar

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2011, 04:42:20 AM »
when flood came the boat raised on the water level.when flood finished the boat must laid on earth, then why it does not scene in presence in that place of flood yet they all knew that it was very important boat for them .why it was not saved.

Offline screwtape

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2011, 08:33:00 AM »
^ They had more immediate problems. Noah went on a bender and his dysfunctional family had to have an intervention. 
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Offline velkyn

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2011, 10:29:59 AM »
when flood came the boat raised on the water level.when flood finished the boat must laid on earth, then why it does not scene in presence in that place of flood yet they all knew that it was very important boat for them .why it was not saved.

Indeed.  We are missing any evidence that any of the important events of the bible happened.  CAn't even figure out where JC was supposedly buried.  You'd *think* that wouldnt' have been forgotten, if it were real.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2011, 10:53:50 AM »
Off topic Lance related posts removed.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2011, 09:57:15 PM »
But let us assume for this debate that Noah did indeed get to 500 years of age by the start of the flood story.

What we then have here is a literal interpretation of Genesis where we must employ some basic arithmetic.

If Adam lived to be approximately 900 years old after 'year zero' when the Garden of Eden was created (in the first week of the creation of Earth which was formless and full of darkness according to the Bible), then we can trace the age of the existence of Earth and life on it from him to Cain to Enoch and from Enoch to Abraham and from Abraham to David and from David to Jesus and from Jesus to present day.

What we then have here is roughly 6,000 to 12,000 years or so (if you wish to include the thinking that a day for God when he was creating stuff in Genesis is ~1,000 years) that accounts for the entire timeline of life on Earth and the Earth itself stretching back to when God supposedly made the stars, the sun, the moon and the oceans/lands for the planet.

Adam had Seth @130 who had Enos @105 who had Cainan @90 who had Mahalaleel @70 who had Jared @65 who had Enoch @162 who had Methuselah @65 who had Lamech @187 who had Noah @182 who had Shem (and his brothers) @500 who had Arphaxad 2 years post-flood giving a total of 1556 years from "Creation" for the "Flood"

Then adding up the ages of those until the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah and the date of a probable meteor strike that may be the source of the S&G myth (3123 BCE) gives a "young Earth" age of 7179

Methuselah would have died in the flood (the numbers sync up) but Lamech supposedly died at age 782 but the flood happened when he was 777 (don't sync up).

But accepting the young Earth age at 7179 means accepting that science provides accurate answers and that's a no-no.

But believing in a young Earth does support the idea that the devil is the "Prince of Lies" since making the universe appear to be about 14 billion years old when it is (supposedly) about 7000 years years old is the greatest lie ever perpetrated making God the King of Lies. Oops.


are told that God commanded Noah and presumably seven other people to build an ark around 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high (from cubits) and pitch the entire thing. Pushing aside the problem of making such a large amount of pitch from wood while constructing such a colossal ship of gopher wood, you also have to consider the unspeakable amount of labor the same 8 people had to put in to gather (conservative numbers following) hundreds of thousands of species of every bird, animal and presumably plants, insects and other things that "creepeth".

With all due respect to my opponent, it is impossible, both mathematically and logically impossible that 8 people in the general Mesopotamia area could gather two of every species throughout the world we see today (because evolution could not possibly have worked in less than a few thousand years for such biodiversity) and put them into a wooden boat that's 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high.

Well, they did have 87 years to do it. (Noah's age at time of flood 600 minus his age when the triplets were born = 100 years & then that minus 13 when the triplets became men and could marry)

Plus Noah lived on the corner across from the world's largest-of-all-time zoo. And the other two corners had the first mega-Menards and Home Depot. That's why it's called gopher wood; when Noah would walk in all the employees would go-fer wood.      ;D


Moreover, even after they do survive and land on a mountain, how long will it take for the soil or land to become habitable or fertile? Implications of this would include Noah and his family having to continue taking care of all the species of Earth while waiting for the nutrients in soil to replenish so they can start farming and fend for themselves.

Also, HOW did the water recede? It just says it decreased after God "closed the windows of heaven". Is there a giant bath plug in Earth somewhere that we haven't found? Flood waters CANNOT recede if the ground beneath them are too wet. If the ground is too wet, then it CANNOT absorb water until it is dry again. And we are not talking about some local floods, we are talking about a GLOBAL flood that covers EVERY inch of the world while rainfall continues. At that rate, all that ground becomes too wet and the water stays on top for a VERY long time.

Your question about the land becoming fertile - are you maybe referring to the idea of 'salting the earth' to prevent your enemies from growing things? Really? You mean it wasn't magical rain that stayed separate from the salt water oceans so that it didn't dilute the water and kill almost every ocean dweller? So you think some of the salt would have stayed on the land as the oceans receded when God turned the hand crank to lower the ocean bottom allowing the water to drain? Huh, that seems to bit a little bit of a problem with the world-wide flood concept.    :angel:

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Offline Samothec

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2011, 10:36:28 PM »
Noah's flood is sold to children as a cute story about animals while it is really an account of the most horrific and evil thing ever done (if real). If every mountain is eventually covered by the rain then at least 29,029 feet (current height of Mt. Everest) of rain falls over the 40 days. That's a rate of .1 inches/second = 1 inch every 10 seconds. We consider 1 inch an hour a downpour. The greatest rainfall ever measured in a minute: 1.5 inches. In an hour: 53 inches. {Rainfall stats from Wikipedia} It would take only 8.76 minutes of flood rainfall to reach that number. The water would be over the head of a 6 foot tall person in 12 minutes.

Estimating the square area (from above) of a person as roughly 1 square foot, each person is feeling 1.05 pounds of water hammering on them every second! That's 62.9 lbs per minute.

Structures are pounded flat very quickly unless made of stone. And with uneven land levels the water on the ground is flowing in torrents to the lowest points knocking people and animals off their feet after only a minute or two.

I watch horror and disaster movies and almost nothing compares to the Flood. This is not what a benevolent god does.

But then neither is creating cancer other fatal diseases that affects children. Or a multitude of other things I could name.

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Offline Ivellios

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Re: noah's flood discussion thread
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2011, 08:48:50 AM »
Religions are just socially acceptable cults. - me

I've seen a variation of this elsewhere. The number of voters makes the difference between a cult and religion.

It's so easy to say, "All the animals of the world," like in the Gospels when Jesus saw, "All the kingdoms of the world." It lets the reader input thier accumulated knowledge to it, while thinking it was exactly what the original speaker was talking about and had knowledge of. I think the omission of Polar Bears, Pandas, Koalas and Penguins in the Ark narrative emphesizes the hopes of the "catch all" the original speaker wanted. However, the writters of Genesis had no knowledge of these animals' existence, so therefore they're not in the narative. If Noah had collected those 4 remote animals, he just might have collected every one.

Regarding the rain, he also mentions "flood gates." It'd be nice to figure out where in the sky those gates are.