Author Topic: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths  (Read 9621 times)

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #261 on: December 09, 2011, 06:25:34 PM »

What is the inconsistancy that you speak of? I don't want my kids to pick fights. I never said I was in the right as a child for allowing the fights to go on without telling. I simply said that that is what happenned and it likely was not the right decision on my part not to tell an authority.

These are your words from earlier:

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Even as an adult, I would think it normal and fully expect that in a neighborhood full of boys, much of the same type of aggressive behavior would be the norm. Boys fight, boys at times bully and intimidate each other. It's perfectly normal male, adolesent, and pre-adolesent behavior that kids, ESPECIALLY little boys would do well to be able to learn to deal with independently.

You just said (above in your first quote) that you don't want your kids to pick fights. Yet you say that it is normal for boys to fight and bully each other (which I disagree with), and that little boys should deal with it independently, as if it is acceptable. If it is so "normal," why don't you want your kids to pick fights, TOT? Is it right or wrong for boys to fight? Pick one.

You are correct that I did say that I do not want my boys to fight and at the same time I said that it is normal for boys to so do. A lot of things that are normal and even understandable as far as recognizing that the are likely to occur, are not necessarily right. I don't think it'd right for my boys to go around fighting or encouraging fighting, but I realize that the likelihood of them being involved in fighting at some point is high. And if it's a small neighborhood frecas where the kids fight today and are best of pals tomorrow, then I don't even see it as a huge deal, though my desire for them not to fight still remains.

I wasn't clear on the deal with it independently assertation. What I mean is that I believe it is important that kids learn and come to know how to deal with and cope with unfavorable situations. As a parent I feel it my job to help them learn these skills, but ultimately it is them that must be able to apply there learning independently throughout their lives.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #262 on: December 09, 2011, 06:26:49 PM »
You're right, Luc. Thank you for clearing that up.

TOT, Luc pointed out the proper contradiction. Please address his post and disregard my earlier one.

I understand, I need to do a better job expressing my points at times.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #263 on: December 09, 2011, 06:38:32 PM »
TOT, I wanted to get back to the topic of aggression. I think we both agree that self-defense is fine.

Earlier, you stated this (my bold):

Quote

Also, what I am picking up is that there seems to be an unspokened disdain for all forms of aggression that makes me wonder if there is an bigger "angle" under consideration than that of the wellbeing of children.

 The aggression that the experts seem to have a problem with is the aggression in children as a result of their parents hitting them. The parents that use CP are teaching that if you do not like what someone else is doing, you hit them.

I'm not sure why you would think that ALL forms of aggression would be viewed with disdain by the experts. I'm also not sure why you would think the experts might have an "angle."

Could you please explain your reasoning behind this?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #264 on: December 09, 2011, 06:52:24 PM »
Also, what I am picking up is that there seems to be an unspokened disdain for all forms of aggression that makes me wonder if there is an bigger "angle" under consideration than that of the wellbeing of children.

 The aggression that the experts seem to have a problem with is the aggression in children as a result of their parents hitting them. The parents that use CP are teaching that if you do not like what someone else is doing, you hit them.

I'm not sure why you would think that ALL forms of aggression would be viewed with disdain by the experts. I'm also not sure why you would think the experts might have an "angle."

Could you please explain your reasoning behind this?
[/quote]

One issue is that the linkage between CP and heightened aggression hasn't been proven to be anything more than circumstantial with any level of definity. Basically what I am saying is that no one knows WHAT aggression, if any, is the result of parents using CP as a tool to reinforce proper behavior.
I hear it said that using CP teaches that "if you do not like what someone else is doing, you hit them." I disagree as I believe that declaration is a big overstatement on a couple levels. First, CP in and of itself teaches very little. It is a disciplinary tool to reinforce proper acceptable behavior. It should not be considered as something that is done in a vacuum. It accompanies an explanation, an expectation, and is a part of a punishment for not meeting said expectation. The lesson that it teaches that is being ignored is that there are often swift and painful prices to pay for unacceptable behaviors. Secondly, and I find this to be a bit ironic, CP can be used to teach the direct opposite of "if you do not like what someone else is doing, you hit them."

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #265 on: December 09, 2011, 06:55:05 PM »
It is a disciplinary tool to reinforce proper acceptable behavior.

Quite the opposite. It is a fear-based tool to punish "improper unacceptable behaviour". It is akin to fear of hell, except that when a person is free of a fear that was never there in the first place, one has a sense of freedom, whereas when a person is free of a real fear, one goes overboard.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #266 on: December 09, 2011, 06:58:20 PM »
While I wait for Gnu's response to my post #234 and before I respond to curiousgirl's post #241 I will go ahead and respond to this. My apologies...I forgot about it as well.

CuriousGirl to JayB:
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You have not given a straight answer for Gnu’s question about why you cried when you swatted your 9-month-old.
Right, I'd forgotten about that. And that was only one of my points:

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1. His actions were completely unnecessary. 9-month-old babies need to be supervised;

You know as well as I do that it is not possible to keep an eye on your kids 24/7. So it is necessary to teach them certain things as early as possible. If a couple of smacks on the hand prevent the child from accidentally pulling a lamp off a table onto their head while you are busy then I feel that is worth it. I disagree that my actions were completely unnecessary. I could agree that they were potentially unnecessary. However, we can't turn back the clock to check that.


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2. It's difficult to see what useful lesson JayB's baby learned from her painful experience:

a. She obviously learned not to touch the particular cord she wanted to play with. But she would have no idea why she couldn't play with it, the concept of electrocution being beyond her. So how could she extrapolate successfully from this "lesson"? How could she deduce that only electric cords are dangerous, but other cords are not, if she doesn't understand the difference?

My concern was not electrocution. We had those little plugs in the sockets that weren't being used. My concern was her pulling something down on her head. It does. not. matter. that she doesn't understand WHY. Not at that age. The lesson she learned was to stop whatever she is doing whenever daddy or mommy says "NO".  All cords are dangerous, she did not need to understand the difference in which cord belongs to what thing.

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b. JayB claims that she learned to obey him from this incident, and never disobeyed him again. I'm sceptical of both those claims.

She learned that "no" meant "stop" what is so difficult to believe about that?

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3. And I wonder, why did JayB cry after he hit his baby?

My eyes teared up because I broke her heart. It's hard to say exactly what she was feeling[1] at that moment. I do know that she held her arms up to me for comfort, which I gave.

She cried the first few times I put her in time out as well.
 1. emotionally
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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #267 on: December 09, 2011, 09:40:56 PM »
^^^
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While I wait for Gnu's response to my post #234
I haven't forgotten, JayB.

But this lamp thing is kind of funny.
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My concern was not electrocution. We had those little plugs in the sockets that weren't being used. My concern was her pulling something down on her head.
Oh.

So I completely misunderstood what you meant. Even though you described the situation in some detail, in adult language:

I was watching her play and explore her world when she noticed the lamp cord plugged into the wall. She reached out and grabbed the cord and I took her hand and moved it away from the cord and said "no". She looked at me, back at the cord and reached for it again. I took her hand and moved it away from the cord a little more forcefully and said "NO" a little more sternly. She immediately went for the cord again. I grabbed her hand and smacked it while barking sharply "NO! She cried, I cried. But I felt it was necessary.

You mentioned the fact that the cord was plugged into the wall, which I took to be significant; you didn't mention the precarious position of the lamp itself. So I misunderstood your intentions.

So, JayB, if you couldn't even explain the lesson clearly to an audience of intelligent adults (e.g. me), why do you think that your 9-month-old baby correctly interpreted your behaviour?

And did she really comprehend, from that moment on, the danger of pulling on cords attached to heavy objects which might fall on her head and hurt her?

Did you explain all that to her, and did she indicate her understanding of your lesson?

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My eyes teared up because I broke her heart.
Breaking her heart sounds bad, and reasonable cause for regret.

But to be honest, I don't know what you mean by it.

Could you try again, using less metaphorical language?

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She learned that "no" meant "stop" what is so difficult to believe about that?
It's possible to teach a child that 'no' means 'stop' without hitting them.
 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 10:16:03 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #268 on: December 09, 2011, 10:35:29 PM »
Jay, I honestly think that redirecting your daughter's attention to something more interesting would have been better. You need not have broken her heart. When my son would pull on cords I would just say "no" and give him something safe and interesting to look at instead. It was not easy chasing him around so much, but I am glad that I did not swat him.

Honestly, the link that I provided from the AAP for you earlier states this:

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Spanking children <18 months of age increases the chance of physical injury, and the child is unlikely to understand the connection between the behavior and the punishment.

In other words, your daughter felt pain and her heart was broken, but she probably did not understand why you even inflicted pain on her.   :(

Jay, I know you love your daughter, but I find it ironic that in your attempt to prevent your daughter from hurting herself, you ended up hurting her.
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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #269 on: December 09, 2011, 11:15:19 PM »
I've had dogs most of my life. Training methods have changed tremendously over the years. What curiousgirl says about saying "no!" and then redirecting their attention to something positive is exactly how we now train our dogs not to get into trouble. If a puppy or dog can understand that, after a few repetitions, I have no doubt your daughter can. We don't train dogs with hitting, pulling, yanking on choke collars, swatting with newspapers, or any of the other methods that used to be used, and they wind up being wonderful companions.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #270 on: December 10, 2011, 12:46:22 AM »
So I completely misunderstood what you meant. Even though you described the situation in some detail, in adult language:

It's alright, I was not focusing on my immediate concerns. Just the immediate situation from a memory that is almost 8 years old.

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So, JayB, if you couldn't even explain the lesson clearly to an audience of intelligent adults (e.g. me), why do you think that your 9-month-old baby correctly interpreted your behaviour?

The lesson was to learn and understand what "no" meant. All my baby girl needed to understand was what the word "no" meant. Of coarse I couldn't calmly explain to her that pulling on a cord might have dire consequences, she was only 9-months old for cryin out loud. All that mattered was that she learn one very important word.

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And did she really comprehend, from that moment on, the danger of pulling on cords attached to heavy objects which might fall on her head and hurt her?

No, how could she? There was no way to explain that to her.

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Did you explain all that to her, and did she indicate her understanding of your lesson?

No, how could she? There was no way to explain that to her.

I butchered the rest of my reply...hold on.

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #271 on: December 10, 2011, 01:05:10 AM »
Quote from: jaybwell
My eyes teared up because I broke her heart.
Breaking her heart sounds bad, and reasonable cause for regret.

But to be honest, I don't know what you mean by it.

Could you try again, using less metaphorical language?

Quote from: jaybwell
She learned that "no" meant "stop" what is so difficult to believe about that?
It's possible to teach a child that 'no' means 'stop' without hitting them.

She looked me in the eye and I could see that she was confused and sad. I guess maybe she felt overwhelmed. I don't know. I don't know how else to describe it really. She did not focus on her hand or the cord after that, she focused on me. Since I could not explain to her why I did what I did my heart went out to her. I am sure that it was a terrible moment for her. One that she never wanted to repeat. And yes, it is possible to teach a child that 'no' means 'stop' without smacking their little hand. It takes much longer and their is too much potential for harm to befall them before they learn.

I would have felt much much worse if I had simply distracted her or picked her up and went somewhere else only to have her pull on a cord a couple days later and have to go to the emergency room to get stitches...or worse. Or how about a little later in life, when she is able to walk and run? If she didn't know to immediately stop what she was doing when I shout 'NO' as she takes off in a busy parking lot and she gets hit by a car, how do you think she would feel then? I don't want my children to become some other parents object lesson.

Can I make my motivation any more clearer for you?   
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Offline jetson

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #272 on: December 10, 2011, 08:15:50 AM »
Jayb, don't forget that parents should go the extra mile to "child-proof" their homes as much as possible.  We went through what many parents might consider monumental steps to child-proof our home so that precarious objects and other potentially dangerous things were minimized.  I even installed these child proof cabinet locks on our lower kitchen cabinets (all hardware was mounted on the inside, so it appears normal.)

I actually understand the position you were in, and the direction you chose to "fix" the problem.  In my opinion, it might be correlated to male parents who tend to use a physical approach to dealing with child behavior modification.  It might be an evolutionary leftover that helped vulnerable tribes survive (I'm guessing here, but it makes sense to me.)  Perhaps modern humans have advanced so quickly, that our instincts are still a bit too powerful to overcome?  In the end though, it is very clear to me that hitting children for any reason, other than self-defense, is completely unnecessary.  Just because it appears to modify behavior, does not mean it is the right approach.

I don't spend much time worrying about the CP issue, because it is far too emotional for many parents to accept that they are literally abusing their own child when they spank.  And most of the spanking does not produce visible signs of hitting, which means it never happened according to the laws.  I do cringe and internalize strong feelings when I see public displays of parents spanking children. 

In my opinion, the message to the child is "people who love me, hit me".  We like to think that our children learn that they should not do whatever it was that got them into trouble in the first place.  But how long is that list for each child, in each household? 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 08:17:54 AM by jetson »

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #273 on: December 10, 2011, 11:25:29 AM »
@Jetson

Thanks

Apparently I leave out too many details. I do not offer this next little bit as a defense or justification but as further clarification.

We did baby proof the place as much as possible. We had the cabinet locks as well as spare plugs in all the unused outlets. We kept doors close, dangerous or delicate items out of reach etc. However, the overhead lighting was an issue. In our bedroom, where the incident took place, there was no overhead lighting. In the living room the lighting was poor so we had another table lamp in there as well. Some of our friends and relatives have table lamps to. In our current home we have plenty of overhead lighting so we have no lamps in use. So cords aren't so much an issue anymore.

I believe my reasoning to be sound. My method is whats being called into question. My main objection is the application of the word abuse being synonymous with spanking. I agree that a parent should never ever abuse their children. I also agree that spanking can become abusive if used arbitrarily or excessively.

The thing I can't agree to is that what I did constitutes abuse. In a similar vein, alcohol has a very real potential for abuse. Research has shown that a couple of drinks a day may actually be beneficial to one's health but there are very serious issues when someone drinks too much, even once[1].  Even more serious potential health problems if they drink too much too often for too long.

If I only had a couple of drinks once a year would you consider that abusive use?[2]. If I only spanked my daughter a few times, in the method I have described, would you consider that as abuse[3]? I don't.

So that's where I am. I understand the potential for abuse when a parent decides to incorporate spanking as part of their child raising experience but I disagree that the occasional smack on the hand or bottom is equivalent to abuse. Am I being too narrow in my use of the word abuse?
 1. i.e. then gets behind the wheel of a car
 2. Some people do
 3. Some people do
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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #274 on: December 10, 2011, 06:47:40 PM »
Hi JayB.

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To me, TOT highlighted the same questions that came to my mind when I first took up your challenge. Basically, the findings from Gershoff's meta-analysis were more cautionary than conclusive. Which is fine, better to err on the side of caution. But it wasn't enough to convince me that my method or technique was dangerous or harmful.
Hitting a 9-month-old baby isn't erring on the side of caution. There's a lot of evidence that it's very risky behaviour.

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Further, the method I used is the recommended method prescribed by conscientious supporters of CP.
Really? Even Larzelere says:
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Larzelere, in an interview, said he remains convinced that mild, non-abusive spanking can be an effective reinforcement of nonphysical disciplinary methods, particularly in dealing with defiant 2- to 6-year-olds.
Big difference between 9 and 24 months.

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Which is why it is better to err on the side of caution. You can't just universally say it's okay to spank your kids when they misbehave then leave it up to the parents to determine the proper use of CP.
Agreed.

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My question is this...given how little we actually do know about the real long term negative effects of spanking a child on rare occasions is, why do you take such a narrow position on the issue?
I'm erring on the side of caution.

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I am not trying to be facetious...I really am curious about why you have your personal conviction on the issue of spanking
Because the evidence suggests that it's a Bad Idea.
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Are you suggesting that they erroneous because of time period in which the studies were conducted? I haven't read either of them, just wondering what the problem is with them.
I was suggesting that her findings may have been superceded by more up-to-date information. Half a century is a long time ago in terms of social psychology.

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how can the law or a parent define the line between severe and too severe? How can a parent know for sure that they haven't gone over the line in their treatment of their own child?
That is the biggest hurdle to all this. It is part of the reason I am so close to abandoning CP in my own life.
Right. You don't know for sure whether you caused your 9-month-old baby long-term psychological harm by hitting her, or not. The evidence suggests that it's a possibility. So why take the risk, JayB? 

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I don't have to wonder why Mr. Fuller did not seek out advice from the "other side". He was trying to come at the issue from another angle all together to look at the bigger picture
He appears to have come at the issue from the perspective of a pro-spanking position, because he only sought advice from that side. If he was disinterested, he would have sought advice from both sides.

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Gnu...if you don't trust parents to be able to not go overboard with something as simple as spanking how can you trust them to be able to use any other method of correction or encouragement effectively? 
I didn't say I couldn't trust parents; I've been pointing out the impracticality of drawing a clear line between harmless and harmful physical punishment. In practice, it's impossible to know whether a particular assault on a child is over the line. The judge in the video thought that what he did was OK. (And if you can't trust a judge not to go overboard, who can you trust?)

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When you take away CP and mix it with a lack of parenting skill then wait 30 years you end up with a generation of snot nosed brats who feel justified in doing whatever the hell they please because no one was able persuade them to behave themselves.
Fuller's dubious conclusions as far as Sweden is concerned have already been adequately criticized by NoGods in this post.

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The lesson was to learn and understand what "no" meant. All my baby girl needed to understand was what the word "no" meant. Of coarse I couldn't calmly explain to her that pulling on a cord might have dire consequences, she was only 9-months old for cryin out loud. All that mattered was that she learn one very important word.
And what exactly does 'no' mean? "Obey me or I'll hurt you" ?

Your Susan Stiffleman site suggests that these are the lessons that children can learn from being hit:
Quote
It's okay to hit another person.
It's okay to hit another person who is smaller than you.
It's okay to hit someone you love.
It's okay to hit someone when you feel angry and frustrated.
Physical aggression is normal and acceptable under any circumstances.
Daddy can't control himself or his temper.
Fathers are to be feared.
Children must always be quiet around their fathers.

Edit for rhetorical reasons: Why would anyone want to teach a child any of that?

You may have thought that you were teaching your daughter one thing, but she may have learned other things.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 08:29:18 PM by Gnu Ordure »

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #275 on: December 10, 2011, 06:51:15 PM »
Your Susan Stiffleman site suggests that these are the lessons that children can learn from being hit:
Quote
It's okay to hit another person.
It's okay to hit another person who is smaller than you.
It's okay to hit someone you love.
It's okay to hit someone when you feel angry and frustrated.
Physical aggression is normal and acceptable under any circumstances.
Daddy can't control himself or his temper.
Fathers are to be feared.
Children must always be quiet around their fathers.
Why would anyone want to teach a child any of that?

I can vouch for some of those.
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Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #276 on: December 10, 2011, 08:27:17 PM »
Your Susan Stiffleman site suggests that these are the lessons that children can learn from being hit:
Quote
It's okay to hit another person.
It's okay to hit another person who is smaller than you.
It's okay to hit someone you love.
It's okay to hit someone when you feel angry and frustrated.
Physical aggression is normal and acceptable under any circumstances.
Daddy can't control himself or his temper.
Fathers are to be feared.
Children must always be quiet around their fathers.
Why would anyone want to teach a child any of that?

Yeah, my dad taught me all of the above with his actions. I was so scared of him that I had nightmares as a kid that he was Satan (not in a cool way).

I can tell everyone that when a parent uses CP as a disciplinary method, the child behaves more out of fear of the parent than out of love for them.

If someone thinks that only hitting their kid occasionally is fine, then I think they are wrong. My mom hit me way more than my dad, but when my dad hit me with the belt it was so hard and/or scary that I feared him for years. It only takes one event like that to seriously damage a parent-child relationship. And the sad part is that my dad (like the judge who hit his daughter) thought he was just disciplining me.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #277 on: December 10, 2011, 08:55:24 PM »
@jayb - I'm glad to hear that you did the child-proofing!  Many parents forget how dangerous it is for a new crawler around the house.

I know my description using the word "abuse" does not sit well with you, or many other parents who do not see it as abuse.  And as I said, I think that when a spanking happens, and the child is not bruised, or does not scream in serious pain, many parents are likely to believe that the spanking is certainly not abuse.  For me, I draw the line at any kind of use of physical force to coerce or otherwise modify the behavior of a child.  And most states appear to side with some form of "gray area" where a noticeable bruise indicates that the child was hit too hard, otherwise, it is considered acceptable for a parent to hit their child.

I think it sends the wrong message, even if it appears to modify the behavior.  The incident for me was when one of my boys was having a tantrum over something, I spanked him with my bare hand, and I felt a stinging in my hand.  I was completely shocked for a brief moment, which turned into guilt, then shame, and finally I cried.  I could not believe what I felt in my own hand.  At that moment, I realized that I was doing far more harm than good, and I was teaching my boys that I was in charge, because I was much bigger and stronger.  They would learn not to misbehave, or throw tantrums, or anything else I did not approve of without the fear of CP - and the pain that comes with it.

I am still ashamed of myself for that behavior, and I still think about it, even after 15 years of no longer spanking.  The really odd thing about CP, is that children instinctively love their parents.  It takes some fairly serious abuse to cause a child to turn against the very people that feed and care for it.  So what message is being driven into our children as we continue to use CP to change behavior, where the child on the receiving end has a stream of disparate emotions, both of love, and fear?  I just don't see how it adds any value at all.

One last thing - I sat the boys down, told them how ashamed and sad I was that I was spanking them, and told them that we would work together to solve problems from now on, and I would never spank them again, or use any other form of physical power over them.  They accepted my apology, and told me that they would try harder to work out problems along with me.  They were happy to hear that there would be no more spankings.  Since then, I have shared with them lots of mistakes that I made as a young boy, and taught them that mistakes and problems that come up are far more normal than being expected to be perfect.  It seems to relax them when they hear that their infallible dad made mistakes!

Jet

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #278 on: December 10, 2011, 11:21:53 PM »
I'll get to your replies shortly. I am starting a new job tomorrow morning and will be going to bed here in a minute but I did want to share a story with you real quick.

The other day I came home from work and M[1] came bouncing out of her room all excited to show me her new toy. Back track...She had achieved a perfect score on a computer test at school and won a $10 gift card to Wal-Mart. So Kim[2] took her there after school. She picked out a little Poke-ball with a tiny stuffed Pikachu inside. The ball was spring loaded so that when you throw it against something it popped open and sprung the Pikachu out...so M is super excited about this and shows it off to me and explains how she came about it.

I congratulated her for her test scores, played with her for a few minutes, put her and her sister to bed and read them their night time story. Me an the wife started settling in for our night time routine, going over the day's events, checking this forum, surfing teh interwebs and looking for something to watch.

About 30 minutes into Merlin, M walks slowly into the living room even though she knows that she is not supposed to come back out of her room after bedtime unless it is to use the bathroom[3]. She had the most pitifully sad and contorted facial expression I think I've seen on her. Her head is down and she is audibly sobbing. Me and Kim ask her almost in unison "baby, what's wrong?" She said "I bought the wrong thing, I should have bought a movie instead. I wouldn't get bored with a movie...I'm a fool."

I should also explain that she has a mild speech impediment and she was sobbing so we were both leaning in and listening very closely. After she said the words "I'm a fool" we both immediately relaxed back[4] and again in unison we said "Noooo sweetie, no.." We both hugged her and told her she wasn't a fool. We were both kinda smiling at this point but trying not to laugh at the syrupy sweetness of the situation lest we make her feel worse. I told her that what she was feeling was "so common they have a phrase for it...it's called buyers remorse". We explained how everybody feels that from time to time, it happens and we gave her some examples of when it has happened to us. We also warned her that it will likely happen again and that there's no point in getting too emotional about it. She wondered out loud what she should do with the toy now and asked if she could give it to her sister.

I also took that time to explain to her that we don't get them every little thing they want for that very reason.

There was more to the conversation, it actually took about 20 minutes or so but you get the gist. It's getting late and I am off to bed now. Remind me to tell ya'll about our conversation earlier today. M now knows the truth about the tooth fairy.
 1. We call her that sometimes
 2. My wife/her mother
 3. I tell you this to illustrate that she knows she can come to us for guidance and comfort no matter what
 4. from relief that it wasn't something horrible like "today the teacher touched me"
I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #279 on: December 11, 2011, 11:13:41 AM »
That sounds sweet, Jay. The best part is that you can still have all of that without ever having to spank. That goes for TOT as well.

There were times between being hit where I thought I had a strong bond with my dad. There were times in between his cussing and belting where he would call me his "princess genius," he would take me to amusement parks and even business meetings so I felt special, and he was the only person who could keep me laughing for hours as a little kid. Then, when he would belt me, it screwed everything up.

Everytime you guys hit your kids, even just with your hand, it distances them from you emotionally because you cause them fear and pain.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline screwtape

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #280 on: December 14, 2011, 09:47:11 AM »
NPR piece I heard this morning. Chinese guy who wrote a book titled "Beat Them Into Peking University".  Guy is a total douche.  I'm surprised his children haven't stabbed him to death or set him on fire.

http://www.npr.org/2011/12/14/143659027/and-you-thought-the-tiger-mother-was-tough

Quote
Xiao, 47, describes himself as the emperor of his family. As such, he's laid down an extraordinary system of rules for his children.

"I have more than a thousand rules: specific detailed rules about how to hold your chopsticks and your bowl, how to pick up food, how to hold a cup, how to sleep, how to cover yourself with a quilt," Xiao says. "If you don't follow the rules, then I must beat you."

However, I do agree on this point:
Quote
"From three to twelve, kids are mainly animals," he says. "Their humanity and social nature still aren't complete. So you have to use Pavlovian methods to educate them."


Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #281 on: December 14, 2011, 10:45:53 AM »
Here's a bitchy mom story to go with your douche dad story:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2043477,00.html

Quote

It was the "Little White Donkey" incident that pushed many readers over the edge. That's the name of the piano tune that Amy Chua, Yale law professor and self-described "tiger mother," forced her 7-year-old daughter Lulu to practice for hours on end — "right through dinner into the night," with no breaks for water or even the bathroom, until at last Lulu learned to play the piece.

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #282 on: December 14, 2011, 03:07:07 PM »
I am still ashamed of myself for that behavior, and I still think about it, even after 15 years of no longer spanking.  The really odd thing about CP, is that children instinctively love their parents.  It takes some fairly serious abuse to cause a child to turn against the very people that feed and care for it.  So what message is being driven into our children as we continue to use CP to change behavior, where the child on the receiving end has a stream of disparate emotions, both of love, and fear?  I just don't see how it adds any value at all.

One last thing - I sat the boys down, told them how ashamed and sad I was that I was spanking them, and told them that we would work together to solve problems from now on, and I would never spank them again, or use any other form of physical power over them.  They accepted my apology, and told me that they would try harder to work out problems along with me.  They were happy to hear that there would be no more spankings.  Since then, I have shared with them lots of mistakes that I made as a young boy, and taught them that mistakes and problems that come up are far more normal than being expected to be perfect.  It seems to relax them when they hear that their infallible dad made mistakes!

Jet

Cool beans Jet! How old were your boys when you had the talk you mentioned with them?

I ask because I believe that when kids reach a certain age or acquire a certain level of understanding and rationality that the best means of affecting change in them is via communication and explanation. I would agrue that prior to that time in their lives, their individual wants and desires tends to fight a winning battle against the behavior that parents teach. Because of this, kids tend to need a little "extra" motivation to behave and that is why we as parents employ punishments whether they are play restrictions, in room confinements, time outs, or CP. The flagrance level of the child's disobedience as well as the immediacy of the the parent's desire to have that behavior effected will often dictate which method(s) of discipline are utilized.

.....I was teaching my boys that I was in charge, because I was much bigger and stronger.  They would learn not to misbehave, or throw tantrums, or anything else I did not approve of without the fear of CP - and the pain that comes with it.

What was wrong with focusing your boys on the fact that you were in fact the authority figure in charge to whom they were to obey?
Though CP was utilized to show them that you would not tolerate their misbehavior, tantrum throwing, or anything else you did not approve of, I do not see why you assert that the fear of CP was the sole teacher and motivator in the above scenario. You were the teacher and motivator and CP was but the agent employed to effect immediate change in behavior through swift and immediate action which caused attention getting pain for your boys. The effectiveness and even 'benignness' of it would be totally dependent upon what was done, said, or taught by you following the use of CP as well as what negative result it prevented from potentially occuring. 


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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #283 on: December 14, 2011, 04:43:26 PM »
I like to find out stuff from different cultures--not because some other culture "has it right" but because it is interestig to see how different people solve problems differently. I would guess that the vast majority of parents around the world think hitting kids is okay, and I have observed some pretty brutal treatment of kids in other countries.

People hit and beat their kids for a lot of reasons, but not because that is the best possible way to discipline kids. They do it because it "works", it shows the kid who is boss, it has immediate effects, it makes the parent feel like they are really doing something, but mainly because that is how they themselves were raised (see TOT, etc). How many people who were not beaten as kids decide that they should spank or hit because it is the best way to raise kids? 

I have lived with poor rural parents, many of whom did not beat their kids, and it was not because of any studies by degreed experts on child behavior. They were just basically non-violent people. And these kids lived in environments that are far more dangerous than anything in the US. Electrical wires that are not insulated and electrocute people; cows, horses and dogs and pigs that attack or bite, or trample; open cooking fires everywhere; knives, machetes, axes, even the occasional gun lying around; cars and trucks and motorcycles racing by; piles of dirty trash; deep wells and pools of water to fall into.

How do people keep their kids safe without childproofing the entire country or hitting their kids to teach them safety? Simple. These kids lack almost every amenity but they do not lack supervision. There is always someone watching. Relatives, neighbors, friends, other kids all look out for the little ones. When we in the US say we have to hit to teach kids safety because,  "Well, you can't watch your kid all the time" these people say, "Of course you can." Bad things do happen to their kids,[1] but it is almost never because they were not supervised.

One family I knew who did hit a lot--with hands, switches from trees, belts, etc, were an exception. The mom had been 13 when she married a guy who was 30, and they had six daughters. Four of the girls were very timid and cried when the parents even mentioned spanking, but still got beat. The other two girls were fearless, misbehaving right in front of the parents and stoically accepting the beating.

All of the girls grew up to repeat the mother's pattern of leaving with a guy as soon as possible (to get away from the endless drudgery and beatings?) and becoming teen moms with several kids and no future. In recent years, abandoned by the good-for-nothing boys, they have returned home to dad with their kids. (Mom left dad a while back, tired of his abuse...) And they are beating their own kids.  :-\
 1. a friend's little one got knocked down by a motorcycle that came too close to the house
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.