Author Topic: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths  (Read 7567 times)

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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2011, 10:02:48 PM »
JayB:
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The deliberate infliction of pain, yes.
OK.

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I do agree that I have used Corporal Punishment on my daughters, I intend to justify my behavior but I will require a little time
OK.

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If you can convince me that Corporal Punishment is wrong regardless of how, why or when it is applied then I will indeed apologize to my daughters and explain to them how and why I was wrong and ask for their forgiveness.
I have presented my evidence. I have also admitted that I haven't actually ... y'know... read it.  :)

But I'm confident that if you read it, you'll find it convincing.  :)

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Just for the record my oldest daughter is 8 years old. I haven't spanked her in about 2 years. I will likely never spank her again. My view is that once they are old enough to be reasoned with they are too old for spankings.
If a child is incapable of reasoning, how can it understand a spanking?

And do you really think that six-year-olds are incapable of reasoning?  I'm sure I can find evidence that children reason way before six.

Offline Traveler

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2011, 12:12:53 AM »
I know very few people who feel that we can reason with a dog. But dogs are trained every single day without using any spanking.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2011, 12:24:21 PM »
This is a bit of a tangent, and it is not intended as a justification for anything, but the important thing with teaching children is to be involved, correct?  That is, not just rely on the TV or video games as a "babysitter".

Offline Brakeman

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Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2011, 11:11:43 AM »
Hi JayB, how's it going?

I thought that maybe I should present more evidence for my side. I found this comprehensive website run by Jordan RiakWiki, who I haven't heard of before. But I'm willing to trust it because it's endorsed by psychologist Alice Miller, one of the world's leading authorities on child abuse (several of whose books I have read).

Website here.

The Research page lists 170+ papers, articles and reports.

The Alice Miller page contains 25+ of her articles (and one of her books, which I recommend).

Obviously the website is somewhat polemical, as Riak is an activist. But he collates a lot of evidence nevertheless. I hope you'll look at some of it.

Gnu.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 11:17:02 AM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2011, 12:12:06 PM »
Hi JayB, how's it going?

<snip>

Obviously the website is somewhat polemical, as Riak is an activist. But he collates a lot of evidence nevertheless. I hope you'll look at some of it.

Gnu.

Hey Gnu, goin good...goin good.

I have printed out the paper by Gershoff and am working my way through it. I forgot to warn you that I am a painfully slow reader. There was something I wanted to incorporate from my psychology book but I can't seem to find the book so...meh. I also pulled up a review of Gershoff's report from the American Phsycological Association

I will take a look at those links you provided, thanks.

Oh, and thank you for your patience, this is something that I feel very strongly about[1] so I want to really give the subject matter serious concideration.
 1. Child abuse
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2011, 02:07:44 PM »

(And your phrase 'a bit carried away' echoes the reason why some children end up in hospital - because their parents got 'a bit carried away' administering their violent retribution).

Corporal punishment tends to be an emotional issue. Parents who use it are reluctant to lose the argument, for obvious reasons. Victims of it may be in denial, for other reasons.

How one chooses to discipline children is often greatly influenced by cultural norms of the group they are a part of. In my family circle, whippin’ ass, spanking, corporal punishment, whatever you want to call it is and has always been pervasive. Some would argue that the method is ultimately counterproductive while others, including former recipients are thankful for receiving it and rave about its effectiveness. I think its effectiveness can only be graded on a case by case basis. I can say that it helped me stay on the straight and narrow at times, but I also feel that it was overused and administered unnecessarily by my parents at times as well. I came to understand that not only spanking, but any form of punishment is not always necessary to correct bad behavior. For some of us, knowing we can get away with some deviant act does not mean that we will commit the act. Too bad some in our societies need that correction.
For most of my life I bought into the idea that good parents from time to time will whip their kids in order to properly condition them and to teach them respect for those in authority over them. With this in mind, any form of disrespect directed towards a teacher, parent or guardian, etc. is immediately punishable by an ass whippin’ to help insure that such behavior will not ever be employed again. I realize that this view is very authoritarian and perhaps even a veiled form of misogyny the more I think about it, but I also must admit that individuals I have encountered through the years that were not subject to such discipline tend to not respect authority as much as those of us who had been subjected to such punishment.
In my community one of the worst things a child can do is “talk back” to an adult and express their feelings to an adult as if the child and the adult are on the same level. Seeing a child attempt to do this, even when I was a child myself always bothered me as my folks were of the “a child should be seen and not necessarily heard” generation of parents and instilled that idea in me as well.
Recognizing these things instead of simply living and reacting has caused me to be far more patient than I may have otherwise been with my own kids. I’m far from a pushover, but I realize now that there is a place for a child’s self expression that I previously thought should not exist. But, if any of my kids speaks to me, my wife, or an authority figure disrespectfully and out of turn wrongfully, they will be dealt with “corporally” as they know better and seeing as to the fact that they have been taught better yet would still decide to act in that manner, ass whippin’ discipline/punishment would be in order.

As Traveler said, a child who knowingly inflicts pain for enjoyment is showing a sign of severe disturbance. Very few children do this. Those that do need psychological help; they certainly don't need beating, which is likely to disturb them further.

As crazy as it may sound, I am quite familiar and perhaps was way too comfortable with kids that abused animals for fun. Not only were animals abused for sport regularly, but we also would allow ourselves to be entertained by causing our little brothers or cousins (5 to 7 years of age) to fight for no other reason than for being able to say my little brother is the toughest little kid on the block. Needless to say I grew up in an area with a boy to girl ratio of about 16 to 1. We, as a collective didn’t see our actions as anything more than boys being boys and didn’t think that 5 or 7 year olds fighting was in any way harmful beyond someone getting a fat lip. Such naivety and foolishness….
 As a child, I quite often engaged in dog fighting with my friends. It was fun and entertaining and a sort of bravado came with being able to say my dog can beat your dog. As I got older, 12, 13-ish, I developed a disdain for it, not because I was embarrassed about my previous involvement, but because it had progressed from fighting for fun to fighting full grown pit bulls and Rottweiler’s to the point of serious injury or worse. That was where I drew my line with that.
I can even think back to the summers I spent in SW Louisiana with my cousins in the country and how abusing animals was the norm. Everyone had a BB gun and in the areas where we were, dozens and dozens of stray cats were used for target practice. We caught snakes, frogs, raccoons, and other critters for fun all the time. Some of the older kids that admittedly we were slightly afraid of and thought were crazy enough to hurt us as well would do despicable things like setting strays on fire or tying them down and tossing firecrackers at them. It’s sad, but unfortunately animal abuse was the norm and we were basically unsupervised from down to dusk in nowhere land with nothing better to do.
To tie all this together, let me say that most of us have grown up to be productive citizens while a few never made it out of their teenage years. Many of the individuals that pushed it to the limit were individuals that did not have much in the way of parental guidence and were not held responsible to or afraid of anyone. They laughed at those of us that had to be home when the streetlights came on and made fun of us for getting disciplined by our folks, and sadly, most of them that didn't have that which they derided us for either didn't grow up at all or grew up and became statistics. I believe that had those individuals been subjected to guardians that would have insisted on them behaving a certain way who would have resorted to forms of discipline including corporal punishment, that perhaps they may not have met the fates in life they have.



Offline screwtape

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2011, 02:22:00 PM »
If you can convince me that Corporal Punishment is wrong regardless of how, why or when it is applied then I will indeed apologize to my daughters and explain to them how and why I was wrong and ask for their forgiveness.

That is a noble deal to stirke.  I admire you for it.
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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2011, 02:32:33 PM »
Hi JayB:
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Oh, and thank you for your patience, this is something that I feel very strongly about [Child abuse]
Likewise. In fact it's part of my job each day to fill in Risk Assessment Forms on the 16-or-younger children of my new patients.

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so I want to really give the subject matter serious concideration.
That's good, JayB - but it signposts a problem for you. Imagine that after giving this serious consideration, you decide that you were wrong to hit your children. How are you going to feel, JayB?

I notice that you skipped over this point when you made your initial promise:
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If you can convince me that Corporal Punishment is wrong regardless of how, why or when it is applied then I will indeed apologize to my daughters and explain to them how and why I was wrong and ask for their forgiveness.
No mention of your feelings there, JayB.

So let me flesh it out for you. I've witnessed grown men break down in tears when they realize their mistake. They are wracked for months or years afterwards with guilt and regret (Why didn't I give this some serious consideration before I started hitting my children?). And sometimes their children don't forgive them, ever. Imagine that, JayB. That's going to hurt.

I'm pointing this out as a potential source of bias within you. If I fail to convince you of my argument, I won't be seriously affected. But if I do convince you, it's going to hurt you a lot. So you have more of an emotional investment in the discussion than I do. A lot more. I hope you perceive this?

You have my sympathy, JayB, you're in a difficult place.

And regardless of the result of this discussion, I sincerely hope that your children will one day forgive you. I know from my patients that that process can take decades.

(I'm being presumptuous talking about your children, sorry. I have no idea how they personally feel. Maybe they'll grow up approving their treatment, but many children don't).
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 03:19:34 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2011, 02:36:08 PM »
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That is a noble deal to stirke.  I admire you for it.
Indeed, I should have said that as well. It's admirably clear.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2011, 06:44:28 PM »
That is a noble deal to stirke.  I admire you for it.

I appreciate it but don't admire me just yet. I will try like the devil to convince Gnu and, more importantly, myself that I have done no wrong.

That's good, JayB - but it signposts a problem for you. Imagine that after giving this serious consideration, you decide that you were wrong to hit your children. How are you going to feel, JayB?

I am going to feel like shit, naturally.

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I notice that you skipped over this point when you made your initial promise:
Quote from: jaybwell32
If you can convince me that Corporal Punishment is wrong regardless of how, why or when it is applied then I will indeed apologize to my daughters and explain to them how and why I was wrong and ask for their forgiveness.
No mention of your feelings there, JayB.

Ultimately this is not about my feelings. I take my responsibility as a parent seriously. If by my actions I am doing harm then that needs to change.

Quote
So let me flesh it out for you. I've witnessed grown men break down in tears when they realize their mistake. They are wracked for months or years afterwards with guilt and regret (Why didn't I give this some serious consideration before I started hitting my children?). And sometimes their children don't forgive them, ever. Imagine that, JayB. That's going to hurt.

I understand. The nature of my situation is not as dire as you fear. But I do appreciate your concern for my emotional well being. Thank you.

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I'm pointing this out as a potential source of bias within you. If I fail to convince you of my argument, I won't be seriously affected. But if I do convince you, it's going to hurt you a lot. So you have more of an emotional investment in the discussion than I do. A lot more. I hope you perceive this?


I do. As far as my bias goes I have foreseen this as a potential hindrance to our discussion. It will become necessary for me to divulge certain details of my personal life with you on this topic. You will need examples, and it is here where the potential for bias will come into play as I describe the corrective actions I take to modify my children's behavior and my understanding of how this affects them.

Bear in mind that this exorcise is not for me or you, it is for my children. I will be as forthright as I can regarding these details and try not to downplay anything. 

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You have my sympathy, JayB, you're in a difficult place.

Again, thank you for your compassion and understanding. But don't worry about me too much, I am pretty resilient. 

Like I said, I don't think my situation is as dire as you fear. I do not *beat* my children. We have already established that, for example, I find the TX judge's brand of punishment unacceptable. I understand your view that all physical punishment is bad but compared to that video me and my girls have tickle fights.

Gotta go. Take care.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2011, 08:53:51 PM »
I appreciate it but don't admire me just yet. I will try like the devil to convince Gnu and, more importantly, myself that I have done no wrong.

That's probably not the right frame of mind.  Rather than look at this as a debate where you are right or wrong, consider at the start that you just might be wrong and listen to what he has to say.  You are the easiest person for you to convince.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2011, 10:12:59 PM »
Isn't that kind of the point of a debate, to argue your case but to be willing to accept if other people convince you you're wrong?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2011, 09:25:39 AM »
Only in theory.  In reality, almost no one walks away from a debate thinking he or she lost.  And that is the problem.  Debate is a terrible mechanism for self improvement.  It sets up an adversarial mode where the outcome is win or lose for the participants.  They become invested in rejecting each other's point of view and steeling their own.  As a result, they become more entrenched in their sides[1]

I thought jay's intent was introspection to find The Better Way for his daughter.  In my experience, the only way I have been able to do that has been to set aside my point of view (and ego) and truly consider the possibility that I was wrong.  By doing that, I sometimes end up seeing how I was acting like an asshole.  This is good, because it helps me act less like an asshole, which is the goal.  When I argue, I learn little and change less.  But, maybe that is just me.

I predict that if jay makes this into a debate, he is going to come out believing what he always believed.  If he makes this a collaboration with Gnu, he will learn something even if he does not change his mind in the end.

 1. there is a link to a news article which discusses that somewhere in this forum
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Offline Nam

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2011, 02:05:24 PM »
"How to probably beat children" -- and they're doing it wrong?  I didn't think there was a wrong way?  Though, I did have a babysitter as a child that I had to go to everyday after school, and she knew how to beat me; I mean, she did it to where she didn't leave a single mark on me; so when I went crying home to mommy and daddy, I was actually lying to them -- and I became the "boy who cried wolf" in my father's eyes.  Got to say, she was ingenious in her beating methods.

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2011, 03:31:40 PM »
Quote from: Gnu Ordure on November 08, 2011, 07:23:50 PM
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As Traveler said, a child who knowingly inflicts pain for enjoyment is showing a sign of severe disturbance. Very few children do this. Those that do need psychological help; they certainly don't need beating, which is likely to disturb them further.

I disagree. Such behavior is not always indicative of being severely disturbed. It is often a function of environment and peer pressure. All participants do not need psychological help, many just may need a strong enough positive influence to help steer them in a different direction.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #74 on: November 14, 2011, 04:35:07 PM »
I do not think there is any reason for an adult to cause physical pain to a child in the name of discipline or punishment. Any author that advocates child abuse like that  should earn a nice lawsuit-- hope someone does it soon on behalf of one of those poor babies...

I was raised in an environment like TruthOT, where hitting kids for "disrespect" or "talking back" was the norm. I was hit, slapped, punched, kicked, pinched until the nails broke the skin, and had my hair yanked for various transgressions, including having the wrong tone of voice or wrong expression on my face. Cursing out was a daily occurence along with other kinds of serious psychological sh!t.[1]It took me until adulthood to realize that I had been severely abused and had scars that were more than physical.

One of my most painful memories was in 6th grade when me and my best friend were sent to the school office for punishment. We were late to class and the penalty was several hard swats with a large wooden paddle. I had learned from long experience to never cry when hit,[2] and I threatened my friend with a second beating if she dared to cry in front of the principal.

However, my friend was crying in terror before we even got to the office, and cried even more when she got hit. The swats really hurt, but I did not cry. I did not hurt my friend either. Even at that young age I knew that what we were going through at the hands of supposedly responsible adults was perverse. Not only was I was hit all the time at home, my friend was also badly abused--her father had thrown her down the stairs once, breaking her arm.   Childhood in the 1960's meant there was no safe place: not home or school.

I have written articles against the corporal punishment of kids, especially among black families. I have never hit a child in my adult life. It is never necessary and always always in response to the parent's needs, not to the child's behavior. A harried mom with several small kids in line at the store, DMV, doctor's office will smack a whiny kid, not because the kid is really being bad, but because the mom is tired, stressed out and frustrated.

I try to gently intervene before the slap by distracting the child with a funny face or hand game and talking sympathetically to the mom--"What cute kids! They have a lot of energy don't they?" . It makes me very uneasy to see people smack or scream at their kids in public, because I know the kids get it worse in private. :(
 1. Being shown a loaded gun and being told to kill the other parent with it if I wanted to be loved by the first parent.
 2. "You better stop that crying or I'll give you something to really cry about."
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2011, 05:18:15 PM »
It goes without saying that that kind of pervasive 'punishment' atmosphere is unquestionably abuse.

But I know from personal experience just how easy it is to overreact to something like that.  In my case, it was peer bullying rather than parental abuse, but they're close enough to be comparable.  Because it is easy to for me to overreact, I can't afford to let my gut feelings about something make the decision for me.  I don't want to risk making a mountain out of a molehill, and that means I can't afford to prejudge without knowing anything.

I don't think it's appropriate to say that "it's never okay, no matter what", but I have no objections to setting the bar quite high for justifying it.  Parents have the responsibility to think about why they want to punish their child and to make sure that their emotions aren't making the decision for them, or making the punishment far worse than it needs to be.  And if they set themselves the habit of making sure that they're not overreacting, then they might well find that they can't ever really justify it in their own minds.  And those that can are not likely to ever engage in the kind of punishment that leaves scars, whether physical or psychological.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2011, 06:23:20 PM »
Punishment in my eyes basically boils down to control. Parents, who aren't evil psychological misfits that punish their kids do so generally in an attempt to mold their kids into the type of people the parents want them to be. If you don't want your kid to talk back to adults, you tell them not to and warn them against doing so under the threat of punishment. The punishment generally applies when the will of the child does not align with the will of the parent for the child.

Such scenarios force us to ask questions like:
- How far do parental rights go as it pertains to rearing and molding the children into the type of people the parents desire?
- Do parents even have the right to do anything more than passively influence child behavior?
- Does demanding certain behavior enfringe upon the child's human/civil rights?
- Basically, do I as a parent have the right to mold my children into the type of people I want thems to be and insist that they behave as I see fit?
- If children refuse to take my direction, what recourse do I have?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2011, 06:49:11 PM »
Can someone teach me how to read these tables? pg. 545-549

http://www.repeal43.org/docs/Gershoff%20meta-analytic%20review%3A02.pdf

Or would it be sufficient for me to just address the conclusions and how they apply to me without understanding what the numbers show?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2011, 07:37:55 PM »
The Alice Miller page contains 25+ of her articles (and one of her books, which I recommend).

Obviously the website is somewhat polemical.

You may be putting that somewhat mildly.

Quote
Hitler, Stalin, Mao and other dictators were exposed to severe physical mistreatment in childhood, and refused to face up to the fact later. Instead of seeing and feeling what had happened to them, they avenged themselves vicariously by killing millions of people. And millions of others helped them to do so. If the legislation we are advocating had existed at the time, those millions would simply have refused to perpetrate acts of cruelty at the command of crazed political leaders.

That was the first article I read from her page on that site. I was shocked because the title of that essay was Every Smack is a Humiliation and really did not expect that kind of leap. If all her arguments are based on that kind of extrapolation then I have no use for her rants.

What I get from Gershoff is that in her meta-analysis she was attempting to measure the affects of corporal punishment based on previous studies. She is very careful to define corporal punishment in order to distinguish it from abuse.

Quote
For the purposes of this article, I consider physical abuse to be
a potential outcome of corporal punishment. Herein, corporal
punishment will be operationally distinguished from physical
abuse according to the definition of physical abuse provided by the
National Clearinghouse on Child Abuse and Neglect Information
(2000), namely:
Physical abuse is characterized by the infliction of physical injury as
a result of punching, beating, kicking, biting, burning, shaking or
otherwise harming a child. The parent or caretaker may not have
intended to hurt the child, rather the injury may have resulted from
over-discipline or physical punishment. (What Are the Main Types of
Maltreatment? section, para. 2)
Behaviors that do not result in significant physical injury (e.g.,
spank, slap) are considered corporal punishment, whereas behaviors that risk injury (e.g., punching, kicking, burning) are considered physical abuse. The studies included in the meta-analyses
discussed below explicitly targeted parental corporal punishment,
rather than parental physical abuse, as potential predictors of child
behaviors and experiences. As I describe in detail below, studies
that included potentially abusive techniques in their definitions of
corporal punishment were excluded from the analyses.(pg. 540)


According to her definition and the one you and I agreed on, I do not engage in abuse. The affects of abuse are pretty easy to see. There is a direct causation. Gershoff, however, is tentative about assuming that there is a direct cause and effect between corporal punishment and the observed behaviors because there is not enough empirical evidence to support that hypothesis.

Quote
The first step in understanding whether and how parental corporal punishment affects children is to establish to what degree
corporal punishment is associated with the child constructs of
interest. Toward this end, I present in this section the results of
separate meta-analyses of the associations between parental corporal punishment and 11 frequently identified child constructs.
Despite the inability of meta-analyses to yield definitive causal
conclusions (Cooper & Hedges, 1994), they do constitute an
effective means of establishing whether the associations of interest
are present and thus pave the way for further research into causal
mechanisms.
To underscore the inability of meta-analyses to support causal conclusions, I refer to child “behaviors and experiences” or “constructs” associated with parental corporal punishment rather than to child “outcomes” in the context of the
meta-analyses.(pg. 540)

I concede that, IF i were to spank my children even only once a month, I see how that could negatively impact our relationship. But, like I've said, I have only spanked my oldest daughter maybe 5 or 6 times in 8 years.

I have given this issue heavy consideration and have felt your point of view trying to creep in. Perhaps a different approach?

Quote
"People want to get whatever they want to get. Do I care? No, I don't care. People need certain things" - Senator Leland Yee (D) California

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2011, 08:28:23 PM »
Jay, if I may ask, what kind of behavior (from your own daughters) warrants a spanking in your personal opinion? This is not a baited question; I am really just curious.

Personally, I can't bring myself to spank my son (who turns 3 in a couple days). He is in a phase where he hits or kicks me because he is learning what is acceptable, but I just put him in time-out even when I feel super frustrated. To me, hitting/spanking my son would be awful. Plus it would reinforce his hitting, whereas the time-outs cause him to be genuinely sorry and change his behavior. I am asking this in all sincerity: how do you personally feel when you spank your daughters? This is not an attack; I just think it is relevant.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2011, 09:14:56 PM »
I was talking with a friend, and he said that the need to be in control outweighs a child's discomfort, but that doesn't justify inflicting harm to them.  And in that respect, spanking is more of a "not exactly negative", unless it's done several times with intent to hurt.

Personally, if it were my child, I would probably deflect blows I saw coming, and restrain them if they didn't get the point or were able to get one in.  Because making it clear that that sort of thing is not acceptable is very important.  If you can do it without getting physical, great, but sometimes that isn't possible.  But I'd say it's very important to be as restrained as possible if you do have to get physical.  Because if you have to get physical, they're not going to be restrained at all, and someone has to be.  Kids aren't made of glass, and as long as an adult is being careful and restrained, so as not to do anything that would cause lasting harm, they aren't likely to break, mentally or physically.

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2011, 09:28:44 PM »
Jaime, I agree that it is fine to restrain a child (by holding them down) for a short period of time if that child is hitting you, as long as you are careful. I frequently have to hold my son in time-out, which irritates him but does not hurt him, and he calms down.

I just don't think spanking is necessary. There are other ways to discipline that are still effective, and don't have the risk of damaging a child.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline jetson

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2011, 10:02:39 PM »
Hugs work, if the pride of the parent can take it.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2011, 10:19:04 PM »
I am almost dumbfounded......
I wish any of my kids would hit or even think about hitting my wife or myself. I'd knock the very thought out of their head! That kind of behavior from kids just ain't normal nor is it tolerable.

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2011, 10:20:33 PM »
Would you ever stop to question why your kid would think that hitting you was a good idea?

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2011, 10:26:47 PM »
Would you ever stop to question why your kid would think that hitting you was a good idea?

IF one of them dared to do so, yes I would.
What I do not see, is why it is that a child would have the gall to hit a parent. It would make me seriously question our parenting if my kids would have that kinda fool-hearted courage.

Offline pingnak

Re: Child-beating Pastors Unfazed by Childrens' Deaths
« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2011, 10:58:27 PM »
Well, let me turn that around.

Why would a parent beat a child to death?

A Washington state couple, Larry and Carri Williams of Sedro-Woolley, were charged in their daughter’s death on Sept. 29, the New York Times reports. It is the third case in which the book was found in the homes of parents who were accused in the deaths of children.

Lydia Schatz of Paradise, Calif., was "whipped" to death with rubber tubing for mispronouncing a word during a homeschooling lesson. She died from severe tissue damage and her sister had to be hospitalized.

Lynn Paddock of Johnson County, S.C., was convicted in the first degree murder of her 4-year-old son, Sean, in 2006, and the teachings of Pearl came up in the trial.  The boy suffocated after being tightly wrapped in a blanket and his five other siblings testified they had been beaten daily with the same plastic tubing.

The real thing to wonder about here is...

1. Fundies want books burned for any kind of content that they don't personally like.

2. Products are routinely recalled and destroyed for far-fetched, 'possible' child death scenarios.

So fundies defend this book to their last breath, I guess because it combines their two favorite things: Jesus, and BEATING CHILDREN.

I wonder what the TV advertising for that book would look like...?

You got your child torture in my Jesus!
You got your Jesus in my child torture!
Both: DELICIOUS!!!