Author Topic: Christian "morals" are OK by me  (Read 1286 times)

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Offline fungusdrool

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Christian "morals" are OK by me
« on: November 08, 2011, 10:11:55 AM »
As an atheist, I have adopted a set of morals based on the logic of living in a peaceful, reciprocal society.  I don't kill because I don't want to be killed, etc....

The odd thing is that my personal set nearly matches the core of the Christian's, as far as I can tell.  Honestly, I don't know what all the 10 commandments are but I know one of them is: don't kill, I'm guessing there's one or two about: don't steal, and so on.

So this got me thinking (yes, I know, a dangerous prospect): I'm not sure religion is such a bad thing because at the very least it keeps most people in line.  In fact, if I were christian I'd be scared to death to walk outside for fear of committing a cardinal sin (if even by accident).  So, these are the people I don't want thinking for themselves because they've demonstrated that they can't do it well. 

In other words, lets say that religion was wiped from the face of the Earth.

All of a sudden, you'd get a bunch of functional morons who now have to think effectively--but we already know they can't.  That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.  I think I'm much safer the way things are now.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 10:14:02 AM by fungusdrool »

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2011, 10:39:36 AM »
this might be fine,but the fact is they were not always as "moral" as they pretend to be. There was a time when these "moral" Christians used the "book" to justify the killing of whoever was in the way. Before they settled America completly they would put a bounty up for Indian "scalps",much like the price of a raccoon or beaver pelt,because we were pests that got in the way. Then there is slavery
 
 Then there is what they do to each other in Europe over the last 4 centuries. They can keep their FUCKED up moral system,you can also bet if this was still a Christian nation there would still be killing "coloured" people without penalty.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2011, 10:43:34 AM »
Do they follow their religious morals, or do they shape their religious morals into what they already morally feel?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2011, 10:58:08 AM »
if this was still a Christian nation there would still be killing "coloured" people without penalty.

This isn't a christian nation?  We're one step away from a fool who prays for rain (or worse) becoming president.

Also, I think, at least at present, most religious folks are not out raping and pillaging in the name of god.  That sort of behavior just doesn't pass in a world of instant multi-media coverage.

Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2011, 11:03:58 AM »
Do they follow their religious morals, or do they shape their religious morals into what they already morally feel?

Yeah, good question.  I'd have to choose the former though.  If we look into the activities of the average non-fundamentalist, I bet they are rather quiescent (otherwise our society would never have formed in the first place).  They don't understand why, but they read: "Thou shall not Kill" and so they don't.  The fact that they cannot reason does not matter until they are asked to.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2011, 11:13:20 AM »
You basically, you believe that Christians (and similar religionists) are actually personally amoral, while atheists are not.

Do you have an evidential basis for this belief?
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Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2011, 11:33:28 AM »
You basically, you believe that Christians (and similar religionists) are actually personally amoral, while atheists are not.

Do you have an evidential basis for this belief?

I believe that Christians cannot use their brains well.  If they could, they would not be Christians.  (See the site whywontgodhealamputees.com for evidence enough of that.)

Further, I know that I can use my brain (at least to a minimum spec) and personally, have justified to myself, an internally consistent set of morals.  So I know that I am not personally amoral.

Lastly, I said nothing about the morality of other atheists.  However, as atheists, they are at least theoretically capable of rational thought.  As such I would trust with a high level of confidence that they could be personally moral--a confidence that I cannot extend to someone who believes in a magic evil overload and then worships it.

You see, that's the part that gets my goat.  Any rational analysis of the Christian God would evaluate it as THE MOST EVIL ENTITY IN EXISTENCE.  Darth Vader is like a cherub compared to the christian God.  Hitler too--basically, it is not even possible for a human to be as evil as the chrisitan God.  Yet they still worship it!?  I don't want someone who plays on that team making any decisions.  Period.


« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 11:36:31 AM by fungusdrool »

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2011, 11:44:47 AM »
The god described in the Bible, sure, they might judge it as evil.  But the god in which they believe?  Hell no.  That god is their own creation.  Its values align with their own.

Are you familiar with the concept of "SPAG"?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2011, 12:28:05 PM »
As an atheist, I have adopted a set of morals based on the logic of living in a peaceful, reciprocal society.  I don't kill because I don't want to be killed, etc....

The odd thing is that my personal set nearly matches the core of the Christian's, as far as I can tell.  Honestly, I don't know what all the 10 commandments are but I know one of them is: don't kill, I'm guessing there's one or two about: don't steal, and so on.
if you did know what their morals really are then you wouldn't make such a claim.  Read the bible, FD or at least google "ten commandments".
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Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2011, 12:32:41 PM »
Its values align with their own.

Yes.  That is the problem.  The Christian has never thought it through.  I.e. they cannot (or do not) use their brain.

Here is the argument that I use from the perspective of a theist:
1) God created the universe.
2) Suffering exists.  And is, in fact, pervasive.
3) God is the most evil thing imaginable--it must accept responsibility for the characteristics of its creation.
4) Worship of an evil entity is evil or stupid.
5) Theists are evil or stupid and so I don't want them making any decisions that could ever affect me in any way (I understand that there's nothing I can do about this but it goes against my wishes none-the-less).

This argument requires the following assumptions: 1) god is not a bumbling fool, 2) logic works.  If god is a bumbling fool, then suffering could be an unintentional mistake.  But a believer probably wouldn't worship a being that could mess up that bad.  If logic is somehow ultimately flawed, no argument can ever be made.  Fine, let's curl up under a rock and go to sleep.

But if you accept those two assumptions.  Then go outside on a cold rainy night and find a rabbit shivering beneath a tree--its home was flooded and now it's going to die.  As far as I'm concerned that is vastly too much suffering to exist in a universe that was designed by a benevolent creator.  A supreme being simply could not do this unless it was unutterably evil.

As a mathematician, I have an OK understanding of infinite sets.  The reality of suffering is almost infinitely greater than my example (which I consider sufficient in and of itself).  Any argument about free will is apologetic and pointless and only makes sense if you assume the conclusion.

So, yeah, I agree with you.  God, in the theists imagination, is not evil.  But that's only because they cannot (or do not) think properly.  If any theist ever was able to think properly about this, they would no longer be a theist.  There is simply no way to logically escape this conclusion.

Are you familiar with the concept of "SPAG"?

Yes.

Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2011, 12:34:40 PM »
if you did know what their morals really are then you wouldn't make such a claim.  Read the bible, FD or at least google "ten commandments".

OK, point taken.  But I still don't think it invalidates my original post because regardless of what they believe their actions are still suppressed.  Ultimately, fear keeps them in line enough for me to live in society.
Remove the fear and we could be in a world of hurt.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 12:39:54 PM by fungusdrool »

Offline velkyn

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2011, 12:51:43 PM »
if you did know what their morals really are then you wouldn't make such a claim.  Read the bible, FD or at least google "ten commandments".

OK, point taken.  But I still don't think it invalidates my original post because regardless of what they believe their actions are still suppressed.  Ultimately, fear keeps them in line enough for me to live in society.
Remove the fear and we could be in a world of hurt.

You could also say that if we remove the excuse of "divine approval" this would also keep theists in check.  There would be one excuse less to commit genocide, rape, murder, etc. 
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Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2011, 01:06:27 PM »
You could also say that if we remove the excuse of "divine approval" this would also keep theists in check.  There would be one excuse less to commit genocide, rape, murder, etc.

That's true.  I stand corrected.  I think I lost track of just how bad their morals are--in and of themselves.  Instead, backing my point from the narrow perspective that currently I do not feel my life is in jeopardy from the religious (though I would not put it past them).

Would you agree that it is at least unclear how a current theist would behave if fear of eternal damnation were removed from their decision process?

Offline dloubet

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2011, 02:11:25 PM »
Is it fair to say that someone does not know right from wrong if they have to be told what's right and what's wrong? Is it fair to claim they're amoral if they self-identify as a member of a group that constrains their behavior solely on the reward or punishment of an eternal afterlife? (Or doesn't constrain their behavior at all because all they feel they need for the carrot is to believe one silly thing and nothing else matters?)

Christians seem to be in a perpetual pre-moral state, like a small child that has to be punished or rewarded to learn right from wrong. If Christians demonstrated that they understood why a thing is right or wrong I could admit they were moral, but their god character is the parent who bellows "Because I said so!" and offers no explanation. So all they can offer is "Because he said so!".

So I can only come to the conclusion that Christians are not moral, they are amoral, they are obedient, and obedience is not morality.

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Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2011, 02:33:58 PM »
So I can only come to the conclusion that Christians are not moral, they are amoral, they are obedient, and obedience is not morality.

Right.  And further, if we take away that obedience then we have no way of knowing that acceptable choices would be made in its place.  In fact, we should question the subsequent evaluations of a decision engine that has shown itself to be flawed in the contrained case.

So, to turn the question around, why spend so much effort to convert if the results could be disastrous?

I guess the assumption is that once lifted, the theist is "fixed" (there is a roll for learning, after all).  That seems to be the case for the ex-theists here.  Is that the general understanding here from ex-theists?  You were flawed, but somehow saw the light and now are no longer deluded?  I guess its too personal to generalize, it would be interesting to hear how people actually woke up.  For instance, when you escaped, did you find that other aspects of your thought process improved as well?




Offline velkyn

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2011, 02:45:42 PM »
You could also say that if we remove the excuse of "divine approval" this would also keep theists in check.  There would be one excuse less to commit genocide, rape, murder, etc.

That's true.  I stand corrected.  I think I lost track of just how bad their morals are--in and of themselves.  Instead, backing my point from the narrow perspective that currently I do not feel my life is in jeopardy from the religious (though I would not put it past them).

Would you agree that it is at least unclear how a current theist would behave if fear of eternal damnation were removed from their decision process?

Yep, sure. :)  IMO,  most Christians are decent people, like most humans, who simply ignore the parts of their holy books that say to be evil bastards.   They don't really need a threat of hell, or a promise of heaven, they'd still act decently.  It's only the lunatics, who could be influenced the way you say and the way I say, who are the danger.

EDIT:  I think the benefits of destroying religon outweigh the potential dangers.  One can be moral and taught to be such without some bogeyman being invoked.   As for "waking up", I first got science and then compared reality to the nonsense I was taught.  So, for me, I think it comes down to getting teh tools to think and then ripping up the "compartments" in my head that said "no no, you can't apply reality to religion".
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 02:48:59 PM by velkyn »
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2011, 03:14:40 PM »
As an atheist, I have adopted a set of morals based on the logic of living in a peaceful, reciprocal society.  I don't kill because I don't want to be killed, etc....

The odd thing is that my personal set nearly matches the core of the Christian's, as far as I can tell.  Honestly, I don't know what all the 10 commandments are but I know one of them is: don't kill, I'm guessing there's one or two about: don't steal, and so on.

So this got me thinking (yes, I know, a dangerous prospect): I'm not sure religion is such a bad thing because at the very least it keeps most people in line.  In fact, if I were christian I'd be scared to death to walk outside for fear of committing a cardinal sin (if even by accident).  So, these are the people I don't want thinking for themselves because they've demonstrated that they can't do it well. 

In other words, lets say that religion was wiped from the face of the Earth.

All of a sudden, you'd get a bunch of functional morons who now have to think effectively--but we already know they can't.  That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.  I think I'm much safer the way things are now.

There are no "christian" morals. What would ever make you think that anyways ?

The understanding of right and wrong was apparent long before christianity or the actual existence of the Hebrews as a race.

It just so happens, and it's a fact, that the "some" of the morals in the christian faith and from the bible, match your morals. The morals that you ascribe to were in use long before the people of faith existed in this world, so your morals were in fact adopted by them. Stop being so kind to christianity. It doesn't deserve it.

Your thinking is certainly skewed and wrong. The top 10 atheist countries are also the most stable, well balanced, highly moral, and safe countries in the world. These countries are know for their use of rational thinking and it therefore disproves your theory that it's religion that keeps people in line. Common sense is king in these countries, and it's only when you make a legendary figure like a jesus into a king, as in America, that is when you see the type of theocratic aspirations, system failures, imbalances, irrational behaviours, and crime rates that we do.

Yeah... christian morals, thinking, doctrines and practices sure have worked great for Americans haven't they ?  &)
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Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2011, 03:47:54 PM »
Yeah... christian morals, thinking, doctrines and practices sure have worked great for Americans haven't they ?  &)

You can go outside in America and not be attacked by bands of roving Christians (it might happen, but it is unlikely).

That's all I expect from modern Christian morals--or, if you insist, Christian edicts.  Even events in the past, while reprehensible, are in the past.  There is no point in constantly rehashing them--nor in continuously abusing the theist of today for the actions of the theists of the past.  If you show me the crusades today, I'll be right on board with you.  But it's just not that bad right now (don't get me wrong, it is bad--just not that bad.  No really.  It isn't.).

They are misguided and flawed, but that doesn't change the observable reality that this is a mostly peaceful country at the same time it is a mostly Christian country.  Even accepting the unjustifiable wars in which we engage.  (There was a thread a couple of days ago to this point.  The world is just not a violent as it used to be.)

To go beyond this, is in my opinion a disingenuous extrapolation.  You are taking your anger at their stupidity and making statements that go beyond the point that it is necessary to make.  I understand your point and your anger.  And there are definitely fringe individuals who cross the line.  But it is the exception not the rule.

I just can't in good conscious accuse an average Christian of anything more than being an annoying fool.


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2011, 04:16:12 PM »
^^^What are you talking about? Of course you can go outside and be attacked by roving bands of Christians! Who else would it be in the US? Roving bands of Zoroastrians?

Most rapists, murderers, robbers, gangsters and other bad actors in the US are Christians. I have had all kinds of bad things happen to me in my life and the vast majority of it was at the hands of Christians, like my crazy uber-religious relatives.

The US is the most gun crazy excuse for a religious society on the planet-- and the most Christian regions, like the south, are the most messed up socially. In the US we have higher crime rates and more people in prison and a more violent culture in general than "atheistic" Canada, Europe or Japan.[1]

Christianity makes people nicer? The stats don't back that up.
 1. I realize that violent crime rates have declined over the past decades in the US, but we are still higher than other industrialized countries. And I am not talking about violent video games or movies. Japanese people love them some violent entertainment. I mean real human to human violence.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2011, 04:25:15 PM »
^^^What are you talking about? Of course you can go outside and be attacked by roving bands of Christians! Who else would it be in the US? Roving bands of Zoroastrians?

I wrote this:
You can go outside in America and not be attacked by bands of roving Christians (it might happen, but it is unlikely).

If you read the parenthetic remark, it clearly states that I believe it is possible to be attacked in the manner of which we're speaking.  Perhaps you have made an invalid assumption about me?  How theistic of you.

I know its possible to go outside without being attacked because I did it today.  Took a nice stroll at lunch.  Was not knifed at all.

Christianity makes people nicer? The stats don't back that up.

Who said that?  You got that from something I wrote?

You are not arguing against my points. 
Possibly you are arguing against your own anger.

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2011, 07:16:24 PM »
if this was still a Christian nation there would still be killing "coloured" people without penalty.

This isn't a christian nation?  We're one step away from a fool who prays for rain (or worse) becoming president.

Also, I think, at least at present, most religious folks are not out raping and pillaging in the name of god.  That sort of behavior just doesn't pass in a world of instant multi-media coverage.
How was it moral before worldwide media coverage to do what they did in the name of God? Christians sure think of America as a Christian nation,doesn't really matter what the founders put out there for building a nation.

 Black Americans were getting killed by Christians as late as the 1960's,maybe well before your time,but not a long time from a history perspective.

Mormons according to the texts also think people of African heritage are devil spawn(a branch of Christian faith)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 07:18:12 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2011, 07:44:07 PM »
OK.  I know everyone has a bone to pick with the theists.  I get it.
That doesn't mean when someone posts something slightly contrary to your opinion they are automatically a theist.

I'm right with you, denouncing any bigoted acts at all.  I don't care who did it.  Are you saying that no atheist is a bigot?   Or are you saying that only Christians are bigots? That seems a bit narrow, don't you think?

Also, I never said, nor implied, that Christians were moral before the invention of the internet.  I did imply that they could have gotten away with more than they can now,
because the ever-present eye of big brother didn't exist back then the way it does today.

I'm not standing up for theists.  I'm just not bashing them as hard as you think I should.  That's three baseless, unwarranted attacks in a row.  Please read what I write and judge me based on those words (if you wish).  Not on what you assume I mean.  Nor on what you want me to mean so you can post to your point again.

(I apologize if you honestly thought that I was condoning any violent Christian behavior.  In the future, you may assume that I will never condone a violent act against anyone: atheist, christian, or flea.)

Offline Alzael

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2011, 09:21:13 PM »
OK.  I know everyone has a bone to pick with the theists.  I get it.
That doesn't mean when someone posts something slightly contrary to your opinion they are automatically a theist.


Or maybe the reason for everyone saying what they're saying is that they find your entire reasoning to be legitimately flawed.
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Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2011, 11:02:08 PM »
OK.  I know everyone has a bone to pick with the theists.  I get it.
That doesn't mean when someone posts something slightly contrary to your opinion they are automatically a theist.

I'm right with you, denouncing any bigoted acts at all.  I don't care who did it.  Are you saying that no atheist is a bigot?   Or are you saying that only Christians are bigots? That seems a bit narrow, don't you think?

Also, I never said, nor implied, that Christians were moral before the invention of the internet.  I did imply that they could have gotten away with more than they can now,
because the ever-present eye of big brother didn't exist back then the way it does today.

I'm not standing up for theists.  I'm just not bashing them as hard as you think I should.  That's three baseless, unwarranted attacks in a row.  Please read what I write and judge me based on those words (if you wish).  Not on what you assume I mean.  Nor on what you want me to mean so you can post to your point again.

(I apologize if you honestly thought that I was condoning any violent Christian behavior.  In the future, you may assume that I will never condone a violent act against anyone: atheist, christian, or flea.)
You said Christian morals were OK with you,you were wrong about the morals of Christians being ok. This is being clearly pointed out to you.

 Christians have involked the God says its OK to do this,because we have his blessing and his(God's)justification for doing what we do to many times. only in the last 40 or 50 years has it been brought under control,but not by the Christians themselves,but by outsiders having a voice and putting a stop to it because it is WRONG.
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2011, 03:10:56 AM »
As an atheist, I have adopted a set of morals based on the logic of living in a peaceful, reciprocal society.  I don't kill because I don't want to be killed, etc....

The odd thing is that my personal set nearly matches the core of the Christian's, as far as I can tell.  Honestly, I don't know what all the 10 commandments are but I know one of them is: don't kill, I'm guessing there's one or two about: don't steal, and so on.

That's two.  It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine to see someone hold up the "Ten Commandments" as a fine moral system, citing those two and ignoring the rest.  The first two ("Thou shalt have no other gods before [Yahweh]" and "Thou shalt not make for thyself a graven image") obliterate freedom of religion and freedom of expression.  "Honor thy mother and father" is arguably good most of the time, but what if your parents are abusive?  "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife (or any of the rest of his property, including his slaves)" is hardly something we would want to institute into law today.  The prohibition against work on the Sabbath could conceivably have the serial numbers filed off and be turned into a labor regulation requiring at least one day off per week, but in its actual context, it was a mandatory day of worship enforced by summary execution.  Notably absent from the Ten Commandments are things like "Thou shalt not commit rape" and "Thou shalt not destroy thy planetary ecosystem."  So no, I'm not terribly impressed by the Ten Commandments as a system of morality.

So this got me thinking (yes, I know, a dangerous prospect): I'm not sure religion is such a bad thing because at the very least it keeps most people in line.  In fact, if I were christian I'd be scared to death to walk outside for fear of committing a cardinal sin (if even by accident).  So, these are the people I don't want thinking for themselves because they've demonstrated that they can't do it well.
 

Or in other words, the Noble Lie ("Religion is seen by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.").  Big problem with this: all those people being "kept in line" vote, and it isn't a bunch of lofty, wise, enlightened, toga-wearing Philosopher Kings keeping them in line.[1]

In other words, lets say that religion was wiped from the face of the Earth.

All of a sudden, you'd get a bunch of functional morons who now have to think effectively--but we already know they can't.  That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.  I think I'm much safer the way things are now.

I have to disagree with you here.  Humans are social primates.  We have evolved to be hard-wired to "get along" within our troops/tribes.  Apart from a small minority of active criminals, most people do "get" the basic "Don't kill, harm, or steal from one of Us" level of morality.  Even cannibals in New Guinea can manage this.  They only eat people from other tribes.  The problem arises from the fact that historically, persons who are not one of Us have been considered fair game.  Marginalized classes in a society (women, ethnic minorities, minority creeds) are regarded as "not quite Real Humans," and this is the basis of their persecution.  Women are "emotional" "weak" or "easily led into sin because they're descended from Eve."  Blacks and First Nations peoples are "savages" who must be "civilized," and so on.  Notice how in wartime, considerable propaganda efforts are launched to convince the populace that the people being attacked are Not Like Us.  Human moral progress consists mostly of drawing ever wider circles of inclusiveness, so that people of all genders, races, and creeds end up inside the circle of "Us" and there is no more "Them" to be treated as outside the boundary of moral concern.

Religion, especially fundamentalist religion, is one of the things that creates an Us/Them boundary.  Those putatively amoral believers you consider to be "tamed" by religion are only "tamed" in relation to their own in-group.  Or to put it (I think) more accurately: their religion does not give them morality they would not otherwise have (they have it already because they're social primates); it limits the scope of their morality to the people who share their beliefs. 

The main power religion has in relation to morality is to create a "transcendent" set of values that overrides people's ordinary inclinations, via methods like fictive kinship ("Our Father in Heaven" "our brothers and sisters in Christ") and authoritarianism ("God says so!").  "Good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but to make good people do bad things, that takes religion."  It could also be argued that religion can also "make bad people do good things" (i.e. the stereotype of the alcoholic or druggie who gets cleaned up by switching their addiction to Jesus/the church). 

So, I don't think religion represents a moral safeguard protecting us from the people it controls.  It's more like a wild card, because it has the power to make those people act immorally upon the whim of their leaders ("Spokesmen for God").  I think we would be better off if we were able to raise the sanity waterline so that people no longer look to random dogmatic pronouncements for their moral values.
 1. Clarity: the tone here is meant to imply a very high level of distrust for the notion of rule by Philosopher Kings.
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2011, 04:57:23 AM »
Religion takes its moral from society, not the other way around.
If it WERE the other way around, we'd still have slavery, we'd still be killing people for eating shrimp and we'd still feel pretty damn good about exterminating all the men and sexually active women from the next village over. (well, ok, the no-eating-shrimp one doesn't apply to Muslims ... but then again, the very existance of Islam is an example of society adapting the prevailing morals)
Ergo, erasing religion from society will not do all that much to the prevailing morals (other than make those morals perhaps less resistant to change)

Also note that the Torah and the Quran make it abundantly clear that moral rules only apply to the in-crowd.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. => but let pagans carry on praying to their gods (Islam heavily pushes this point)
Thou shalt not kill. => other Jews/Muslims ... it's ok to kill everyone else ... after all, what's the first thing Moses does after being told "Don't kill" ... right, he kills 3000 Pagans. (Exodus 32:28)
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. => but lie, cheat and swear false oaths to your unblieving neighbour all you like (again, Islam heavily pushes this point)
Technically, the same is true for Christians too, but there you have to take a detour via Jesus going "not one letter of the law will be changed"

And even then, these rules never stopped any Christian/Jewish/Muslim murderer from killing his faithful brethern.
Oh, right, sorry, those weren't REAL(tm) Christians/Jews/Muslims.
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Offline ungod

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2011, 05:56:08 AM »
As an atheist, I have adopted a set of morals based on the logic of living in a peaceful, reciprocal society.  I don't kill because I don't want to be killed, etc....

The odd thing is that my personal set nearly matches the core of the Christian's, as far as I can tell.

Read this book, and you might want to reconsider.....

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline screwtape

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2011, 08:55:06 AM »
Notably absent from the Ten Commandments are things like "Thou shalt not commit rape" and "Thou shalt not destroy thy planetary ecosystem."

Don't forget the other biggie: "Thou shalt not own people"

Or "Thou shalt use thy brain and question authority"

 


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Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Christian "morals" are OK by me
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2011, 09:12:08 AM »
OK.  I understand now where the disagreement is coming from (I think).  It is my fault, allow me to explain:

I believe there is a functional difference between how your average christian acts and how fundamentalists/past Christians act/acted.

You guys do not make any distinction.  Without that distinction I understand why you are laying into me.  Based on the topic title and first written paragraph I did not convey the meaning of my post well and I apologize (and thanks for pointing it out to me, I WILL try to be more specific and targeted if I make any future posts.  And in particular, I will try to stay away from glancing over highly charged points).  The meaning of the post (to me, I know I did not convey it well) is simply that I think Christians are stupid as a whole (not evil as you are implying).  So I wasn't picking up on WHY you were making points against what wasn't my main point, and I can see why you were mislead by my sloppiness.

I still believe it is is unfair to the vast majority of the population of the world to take extreme examples and apply them generally.  I don't think it holds water because I know some Christians and I know they are not bloodthirsty animals (at least not exclusively).  I think they are deluded, but I can sit down with them and have a nice meal.

The statements I'm reading from the "hard atheists" here would imply it is not possible to do that.  The fact that reality is different from what you are posting means you are upset (reasonable) but applying your anger to the situation and not your pure reason.  So in effect, you are doing what the Theists do.  You've built up some model in your head and play to the model.  And, yes, some Christians do bad stuff in the name of god, but I think that is the exception nowadays and not the rule.  (Just think about it for a second, would there be a society if this was not the case?)

Lastly, I do not condone any violent act, Christian or otherwise.  Nor do I take responsibility for any one else's actions, Christian or otherwise.  I do not think that all barbarism is done in the name of Christianity, though I admit that some Christians used to be insanely evil.  Now, for the most part (think 80-20 rule) I think they are a docile bunch and not generally dangerous.

If you disagree with the above statements, let's hash it out in a new thread.