Author Topic: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians  (Read 5810 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2011, 06:40:35 PM »


Nonetheless C, jaimehlers, Hatter, and now even albeto is joining in in trying to finesse the statement:
Just so we're all 100% clear, you're saying Hitler was not wrong (because absolute wrongs don't exist) to murder millions of Jews.

I sure hope this was transparent!  This is the inevitable conclusion of your own logic.  The fact that you're having trouble admitting it to be true indicates you're not at all convinced of the subjectivity of moral standards, but are unwilling to admit it.  (At least as far as I can tell.)

This could be construed as an ad hominem.



Actually it isn't quite one. It is a strawman based on a false dilemma, which can be traced to an equivocation....which can be traced even further back to a begging the question.

The question being begged is that there is a universal morality. The equivocation is on the two meanings of wrong, incorrect versus immoral. The false dilemma is "This statement is absolutely correct or not" The Strawman is the statement itself "What you are saying is X" and refusing to budge when being corrected, but only repeating the same thing in larger fonts (in essence The Chewbacca Defense)
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline C

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #88 on: November 20, 2011, 09:34:15 AM »
I still can't believe how MIC just shut his eyes to this:

Quote
Do I agree that certain politicians and military officers along with a lot of the soldiers of Nazi Germany supported and even enjoyed the notion of killing Jews, homosexuals, dissidents, Roma and others as right? Of course.

and said the ultimate conclusion was that I don't think Hitler was wrong.

I'm still a bit dumbfounded.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #89 on: November 20, 2011, 09:35:46 AM »

Nonetheless C, jaimehlers, Hatter, and now even albeto is joining in in trying to finesse the statement:
Just so we're all 100% clear, you're saying Hitler was not wrong (because absolute wrongs don't exist) to murder millions of Jews.

Alright, since you're too fucking stupid to get this... even after repeated attempts to show you how stupid you are, lets try another direction..

Stepping into your delusion for a moment and hypothetically saying God is real; where does God say that what Hitler did was objectively wrong?  Did He come down and tell you Himself?  Did He send you a fax?  Is it written in the bible that what Hitler did was bad?  No?  Then how do you know that what Hitler did was objectively wrong?  Did you use your own judgement to come to that conclusion?  Yes?  Well, so did we.  You'd like to think that God agrees with your assessment, but what evidence can you provide to support that conjecture? 

Now (again stepping into your delusion for a moment) if we both use our judgement to come to the conclusion that God is real, and that mass murder is objectively wrong, then God is much worse than Hitler.  Allegedly, God killed every living thing on the planet except Noah and his family and 2 of each animal (or 7 depending what you read).  Using the same judgement you previously used to conclude that Hitler's killing spree was wrong, how can you possibly conclude that what God did was right and what Hitler did was wrong?  Actually, the most evidence based conclusion that you can come to is that God supports mass murder.  How can I say that?  Easily.  Lets look at the facts...

First, you postulate that there exists (in this God character) an omnipotent being who can do literally anything at any time.  Lets now couple that with the fact that for several years, God did NOTHING to stop Hitler from doing what he did, all the while having the power to stop it with a single thought.  How about the fact that there were 15 assassination attempts on Hitler during the war, and all of them failed.  How about the fact that several large concentration camps were able to efficiently kill people by the thousands without daily large scale malfunctions in the crematoriums and gas chambers (which God could easily have made happen)?  Can you not judge that as a divine mandate to keep doing what he's doing? Was God not watching out for him?  Supporting him at every turn?  Sure, he eventually lost, but only because other men, who formed the OPINION that Hitler was bad, decided to stop him.  Or perhaps God thought 6 million was just the right number of dead Jews. 

Given this information, how can you possibly say that what Hitler did was objectively wrong (wrong in the eyes of God)?  God never says it was wrong.  He never steps in to stop it.  At the very least, since God knew it was happening and stood by doing nothing, you could easily consider Him an accomplice.  And keep in mind, we have some alleged 'evidence' that God once participated in the largest mass murder of all time. 

All you have is your OPINION that mass murder is wrong.  Same as us.  Tell me how you come to the conclusion that GOD thinks mass murder is objectively wrong.  Just because you say so, and you think your opinions are backed up by the invisible sky man?  Not good enough.  Not good enough at all. 

You THINK what Hitler did was wrong.  I THINK what Hitler did was wrong.  The vast majority of people in the world THINK what Hitler did was wrong. That is enough to explain how reality works.  What real world evidence can you provide that God thought it was wrong? 

This is the inevitable conclusion of your own logic.  The fact that you're having trouble admitting it to be true indicates you're not at all convinced of the subjectivity of moral standards, but are unwilling to admit it.  (At least as far as I can tell.)

Ugh.  Just stop already.  You've lost.  Move on from this argument.  Morality is subjective.  Get over it. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline riley2112

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #90 on: November 20, 2011, 06:35:40 PM »
But that is not really bad. All people do. I understand that you don,t agree with what the Bible says or that there is a God , or if there is he is evil or lets evil exist. Truth is , you don,t understand God, none of us do,

I'm just curious, but you do realize that this statement effectively renders anything that you say about your religious beliefs essentially moot, right?

If god can't be understood, then any and all claims that your religion makes are instantly meaningless. Because your entire religious faith is essentially one long string of claims about gods nature.

Christians claim that god created everything, they claim that god is loving, they claim that god created sin, sent down Jesus to save us, gives us morals, judges us ,etc. Everything about your religion is based around god, his words, and his nature. Your bible, the book that all of your theology comes from is basically 2000+ pages of humans talking about what god said, did, and wants.

You see you can't have it both ways. Either we can understand god; in which case there are a lot of questions that need answers. Or we can't understand god; in which case all of your religion is basically a giant game of "Let's Pretend" that you've convinced yourself is being played for real.
I never saw it like that before. You do have a very good point. Thanks for keeping me on my toes.  I guess we really don't understand what he does or allows to happen. If we did it sure would make things easier.
and that is why I like coming to this site. I can say what is on my mind, and have you guys pick it apart for me. Now that may upset some people, but it helps me put things in order. One of the things I do like here is the fact that you all seem to give reasons for the way you think about things. That in it self is a huge help when going through my own beliefs. It makes me think about why I believe the way I do. What I am finding out is I am not always sure why I believe the way I do. And I sure be sure.  :-\

C; I did read it again and I stand corrected. Thank you for clearing that  up for me. 
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline riley2112

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #91 on: November 20, 2011, 06:44:24 PM »
There goes my grammar again. I meant to say I should be sure of why I believe the way I do. Sorry guys.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline velkyn

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #92 on: November 21, 2011, 02:43:43 PM »
I never saw it like that before. You do have a very good point. Thanks for keeping me on my toes.  I guess we really don't understand what he does or allows to happen. If we did it sure would make things easier.
Indeed it would.  But there is the problem that per the bible we *do* know why God allows a lot of thing to happen.  In Job:
Quote
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”  9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”  12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
In Exodus, the whole 10 plagues thing was for God to show off. 
Quote
Exodus 10: 1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD.”

From these instances, and others, one can build up a profile of god and why it does things.  The claims of God’s incomprehensibility are usually used for convenience when a theist doesn’t like the answers they get.   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline riley2112

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #93 on: November 21, 2011, 08:52:23 PM »
yea  , that is one of the stories that made me wonder what the heck was he was doing . Talk about being thrown to the dogs.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline C

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #94 on: November 22, 2011, 12:21:11 AM »
Why is it a he? ^^^^
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Offline riley2112

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #95 on: November 23, 2011, 08:33:03 PM »
Why is it a he? ^^^^
Because not even a poor misguided Christian like myself would believe a woman could make those mistakes. And I believe about anything. ;)
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline C

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #96 on: November 24, 2011, 03:05:38 PM »
True to an extent. ^^^ Reminds me of what Carlin said, that no woman could ever fuck up things this badly. :P
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Offline Alzael

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2011, 03:24:39 PM »
True to an extent. ^^^ Reminds me of what Carlin said, that no woman could ever fuck up things this badly. :P

Don't be sexist, this is the age of female equality. Women can (and very often have) buggered things up just as bad or worse than any man. They've gone to a great deal of trouble to earn that distinction and to show that they're on equal footing with us guys.
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Offline C

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2011, 03:38:20 PM »
Wish you could have told me that this was the age of female equality before I bought all those ladies dinner and drinks.  :-[

Personally, I have no qualms about that (the whole guy buying stuff thing for the girl) anyway. Besides, I kinda do think women tend to be slightly less destructive than men.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #99 on: November 24, 2011, 03:41:07 PM »
Wish you could have told me that this was the age of female equality before I bought all those ladies dinner and drinks.  :-[

Personally, I have no qualms about that (the whole guy buying stuff thing for the girl) anyway. Besides, I kinda do think women tend to be slightly less destructive than men.

It depends on how you term destructive. If you mean just bashing things, then yes. If you mean things like causing harm through stupidity, ignorance, maliciousness, etc. then it becomes a whole different thing.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline C

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #100 on: November 26, 2011, 10:52:12 AM »
By "bashing things", would you include crime in that?  :police:

From what I've read there isn't quite a solid, consistent relationship between gender and crime.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: 13 Of The Most Common Arguments Made By Christians
« Reply #101 on: November 26, 2011, 11:01:31 AM »
By "bashing things", would you include crime in that?  :police:

From what I've read there isn't quite a solid, consistent relationship between gender and crime.

I meant just general hitting and breaking things, for whatever reason.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.