Author Topic: Bible God is Cruel  (Read 3384 times)

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Offline curiousgirl

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Bible God is Cruel
« on: November 07, 2011, 01:23:42 PM »
All the Bible-thumping theists on this site need to understand that although the Bible describes God as loving, merciful and just, he is actually rather sadistic and murderous.

“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.”
Hosea 13:15-16

“Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer…” Isaiah 53:10

“Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:15

“After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill.” 2 Samuel 12:15

“Because of you I will rebuke your descendants; I will smear on your faces the dung from your festival sacrifices, and you will be carried off with it.” Malachi 2:3

“If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death.” Deuteronomy 22:20-21

“…the LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors.” Deuteronomy 2:33-34

“They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.” Joshua 6:21

“Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” 1 Samuel 15:3

“On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.” Exodus 12:12

“So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15

And that is just some of the craziness you can find in the Bible that makes God sound not-so-nice. Sure, we can blame ourselves all we want for God’s wrath, but would you require blood or even death from your child (or an animal he owns) when he does something you don’t approve of? Would you cast your child into fire for rejecting you? Plus, what about the innocent children killed by God in some of those verses? While most of these verses come from the OT, bear in mind that we are talking about the same Bible God in the OT and the NT, so no excuses, theists.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2011, 01:26:08 PM »
BibleGod is nothing more than the other violent gods of the Bronze/Iron Age.   Humans did a lovely job of projecting and intensifying their own activities onto beings they created powerful enough to cause weather, earthquakes, plagues, etc. 

the answer you'll get from most ignorant Christains is that it's God's "right" to be an asshole. 
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Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2011, 01:31:01 PM »
the answer you'll get from most ignorant Christains is that it's God's "right" to be an asshole.

And that they have the right to be assholes as long as God is OK with it.  ;)
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Offline albeto

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2011, 04:40:16 PM »
And that they have the right to be assholes as long as God is OK with it.  ;)

Oh it's not a right, these folks are on a mission from god to be righteous assholes!


Offline grasszilla

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2012, 08:13:58 AM »
Hello. I wanted to say that God is just. John 2 : 15: jesus did that cuz the temple is god's and they were defiling it. Exodus 12 : 12: the king wouldnt let his people go after he asked multiple times. 1Samuel 15 : 3: they waylaid them and that was bad. Joshua 6 : 21: they had to kill everyone and there animals so they and ther animals could move in. Deuteronomy 2 : 33 - 34: god wanted them to have the land he promised. Deuteronomy 22 : 20-21 the wife was disgraceful while she still lived in her dads house. We gotta purge evil. Malachi 2 : 3: he had to admonish them and put poo on their faces and then cut off their descendants so his covenant could continue, cuz god keeps his promises. 2 samuel 12 : 15: still in eye for eye era; shouldnt have slept with a wife of a guy who works for you and then get him killed. Revelation 20 : 15: if ur goin to a reservation only resturant and you didnt ask the person who makes the reservations to put your name in the book expect to get thrown out of the lobby (earth).

Offline grasszilla

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2012, 08:21:58 AM »
The last 2 are: it was the lords will to reconcile with fallen mankind. And when they rebelled  god wanted them to feel the guilt they should have and that was the way he chose. Sadistic means you like hurting people. God doesnt like hurting people so he sent jesus so no one would have to be sent to hell to burn and suffer for eternity in the lake of fire. Flame.

Offline Nick

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2012, 09:33:16 AM »
You just don't understand Him.  Running a universe by yourself (except for the split personality thing) is a hard thing to do.  Cut the Big Man a break. He's doing the best He can. ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2012, 10:10:46 AM »
Revelation 20 : 15: if ur goin to a reservation only resturant and you didnt ask the person who makes the reservations to put your name in the book expect to get thrown out of the lobby (earth).

which is quite amusing on how you forget your god intentionally makes sure that some people cannot ever ask.  Amazing how Christians forget that. 
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 12:26:39 PM »
I've got a few in my signature. I will draw close attention to the 2 from Deuteronomy as one was mentioned in the OP, but the OP missed out the entire section (Christians often tell us we're quoting out of context).

Violence bolded.

Deuteronomy 22

Regulations for Sexual Purity

Quote
13 “Suppose a man marries a woman, but after sleeping with her, he turns against her 14 and publicly accuses her of shameful conduct, saying, ‘When I married this woman, I discovered she was not a virgin.’ 15 Then the woman’s father and mother must bring the proof of her virginity to the elders as they hold court at the town gate. 16 Her father must say to them, ‘I gave my daughter to this man to be his wife, and now he has turned against her. 17 He has accused her of shameful conduct, saying, “I discovered that your daughter was not a virgin.” But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.’ Then they must spread her bed sheet before the elders. 18 The elders must then take the man and punish him. 19 They must also fine him 100 pieces of silver, which he must pay to the woman’s father because he publicly accused a virgin of Israel of shameful conduct. The woman will then remain the man’s wife, and he may never divorce her.
 20 “But suppose the man’s accusations are true, and he can show that she was not a virgin. 21 The woman must be taken to the door of her father’s home, and there the men of the town must stone her to death, for she has committed a disgraceful crime in Israel by being promiscuous while living in her parents’ home. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you.

 22 “If a man is discovered committing adultery, both he and the woman must die. In this way, you will purge Israel of such evil.

 23 “Suppose a man meets a young woman, a virgin who is engaged to be married, and he has sexual intercourse with her. If this happens within a town, 24 you must take both of them to the gates of that town and stone them to death. The woman is guilty because she did not scream for help. The man must die because he violated another man’s wife. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you.

 25 “But if the man meets the engaged woman out in the country, and he rapes her, then only the man must die. 26 Do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no crime worthy of death. She is as innocent as a murder victim. 27 Since the man raped her out in the country, it must be assumed that she screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.

 28 “Suppose a man has intercourse with a young woman who is a virgin but is not engaged to be married. If they are discovered, 29 he must pay her father fifty pieces of silver.[c] Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he may never divorce her as long as he lives.

 30 [d]“A man must not marry his father’s former wife, for this would violate his father.

tl;dr?

Wife not a virgin on her marriage? Stone her to death
Adulterers? Both must die.
Man has sex with woman who is to be betrothed? Because she was in a town and did not scream, she is guilty. Therefore she and the man must be stoned to death.
Rape someone who does scream for help? Well only the rapist should be killed. I would have gone for castrate him, but I guess we have our differences.
Rape a virgin who is not to be married? Cough up 50 silver because you'll have to marry her.*


*Good lesson there for outstanding Christian gentlemen, want a girl you like? Worried she might not like you? Why try so hard to impress her? Particularly if there's other guys she's interested in! Well save up your money and rape her! That way she'll have no choice but to be your bride and she can't cheat on you because she'll just get stoned to death otherwise.

And yes, Deuteronomy is a law for Christians because Jesus said in several quotes that he was not to abolish the old laws, he was there to enforce them and not only that he basically said to listen to the word of Moses and Deuteronomy is one of the 5 books of Moses. I can dig up quotes for them too. But either way, this should show how detestable God's laws are. If people didn't believe in the Old Testament, then we wouldn't have Creationism or the 10 Commandments.


Fortunately the laws of our country do not agree with God's laws. So raping women isn't going to get you a wife and having sex before marriage isn't going to kill you.

[edit]
I guess I should pose the question. How are these laws just? Grasszilla said for the 1 that we must purge evil. So somebody is adulterous we must murder them? A tad bit a extreme. Somebody has sex before marriage? Again, extreme...I don't even see why that's even 'evil'.

But lets say they are evil and so damn outraging that the only possible punishment for it is to be stoned to death. What about the rape? If the woman does not scream, she is guilty and is therefore punished with being stoned to death. Why didn't she scream? Perhaps she was petrified? Perhaps she was blackmailed? Perhaps she was threatened? Or maybe she was mute. Maybe a number of reasons. And what about virgins who aren't engaged who are raped? Why must they marry their rapists?

What's so evil about being a victim?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 12:42:23 PM by Seppuku »
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2012, 01:35:49 PM »
tl;dr?

Wife not a virgin on her marriage? Stone her to death
Adulterers? Both must die.
Man has sex with woman who is to be betrothed? Because she was in a town and did not scream, she is guilty. Therefore she and the man must be stoned to death.
Rape someone who does scream for help? Well only the rapist should be killed. I would have gone for castrate him, but I guess we have our differences.
Rape a virgin who is not to be married? Cough up 50 silver because you'll have to marry her.*

Or, if you're one of those people who finds images easier to follow than words, here's all the same information, presented in a handy-dandy flowchart!

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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2012, 03:32:38 PM »
Awesome, didn't know somebody made a flow chart. Stolen for future reference. ;)

Guess the only answer is:
Don't get raped! Otherwise in the eyes of the Lord you will be evil and must then be punished.


Also, isn't this just a loop hole for sex before marriage?

"Oh, we weren't having sex before marriage, those weren't screams of pleasure, I was being raped by my own boyfriend!"

Or maybe your father doesn't approve of your boyfriend?

"Dad, you know my boyfriend you don't like? He raped me so it looks like we're getting married after all."
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 03:36:54 PM by Seppuku »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2012, 11:21:40 AM »
Exodus 12 : 12: the king wouldnt let his people go after he asked multiple times.

hi grasszilla.

You are missing the critical part of that story.  The pharaoh agreed several times to let the jews go, but each time yhwh "hardened his heart" to make him change his mind.  The jews could have left sooner, but it was yhwh's intervention that kept them in bondage longer because yhwh wanted to make a name for himself as a bad ass.

exodus 10:1:
Quote
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD.

bold mine. 

Pharaoh was relatively innocent in this.  The responsibility lays on yhwh.  Maybe you should understand what your holy book says before you comment on it.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2012, 11:32:37 AM »
If I am guilty before I exist, then god's justice has no relevant meaning.

If I exist and god knows I will never believe, then I exist for no other purpose than to suffer and god is cruel.

If I am condemned because I do not know and thus do not believe, then god's love has no relevant meaning.

The biblical creed delivers a message of compulsion under a threat of violence, insisted to be believed upon by nothing more than ignorance of what one can know.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2012, 11:54:19 AM »
This idea of people being guilty at the point of conception is such a crock of shit. All cultures had stories to help people learn the need to behave and do the right thing. The christians came up with this original sin thing. It's just a story, and a pretty bad one at that. Their god wants everyone to have faith and everyone to redeem themselves. He has no interest being honest himself, he has no interest in having people who are good from the start, he has no interest in justice or kindness or fairness or gentleness. He only has interest in his selfish need to be worshipped and condemning all who don't follow him in lock step.

Sounds like a republican to me. Coincidence? I don't think so.

The christian god was created by exactly the sort of people who pull republican type shenanigans. "I'm right, you're wrong, so die, pig".

The story is so full of crap it has to be human in origin. The most evil of gods couldn't come up with anything more heinous. And none of this crap would ever even occur to a good god.
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2012, 12:02:42 PM »
It's those sorts of reasons I sometimes try to pose the argument that, "the bible was written by the devil in order to trick people into following the path of being good".

To expand that, I also suggested that the devil invented all the world religion to ensure chaos in the world and it has worked.

Think about it, if the devil were to do this, he'd try and make himself credible - "I am God, I am good and my word is just and I am here to bring you to paradise", not, "I am the devil, an evil sonavabitch and I'm gonna f**k you up."

God vs Satan, is it bizarre that Satan is actually the less violent, less blood thirst and less cruel of the two? Hell isn't pain and torture, it's Satan living it up with his homies. ;)
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Offline Omen

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2012, 12:25:18 PM »
Christian's don't have any choice, in order to justify it ethically or morally, they have to assume that you actually believe it to be true and are simply denying it.
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2012, 12:40:50 PM »
A couple of favorites:

Isaiah 13:15-18:  All prisoners children will be dashed to death before their eyes; their homes will be sacked and their wives raped.  All male prisoners will then be run through with a sword.  No amount of silver or gold will buy off my armies; they will shoot down the young with arrows and have no mercy or compassion for helpless babies.

Judges 18:27: Then with Micah and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure.  They attacked it with swords and burned the town to the ground. 

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Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2012, 04:21:57 PM »
they had to kill everyone and there animals so they and ther animals could move in

Oh well that makes it alright then.  &)

I suppose it was also "alright" that my white ancestors murdered Native Americans and stole their land, because they were on a mission from "God."
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2012, 04:23:16 PM »
Judges 18:27: Then with Micah and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure.  They attacked it with swords and burned the town to the ground. 

You can just feeeeeel the love...

Interesting.... God's people came and attacked a people who were "peaceful and secure."
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Offline grasszilla

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2012, 10:23:54 PM »
Still cant quote...oh well. Judges 18 is about the danites. They wanted to take possession of their territory so they did. Unfortunately, they were  worshipping idols. When the israelites were claiming the land they annihilated  and decimated the settlements so they could live there and stay pure and holy and not worshiping false gods and idols like the people in canaan.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2012, 02:18:35 AM »
I suppose it was also "alright" that my white ancestors murdered Native Americans and stole their land, because they were on a mission from "God."

I'm sure glad they did, who the hell wants to live in England?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2012, 09:06:35 AM »
Still cant quote...oh well. Judges 18 is about the danites. They wanted to take possession of their territory so they did. Unfortunately, they were  worshipping idols. When the israelites were claiming the land they annihilated  and decimated the settlements so they could live there and stay pure and holy and not worshiping false gods and idols like the people in canaan.

so, genocide is perfectly fine with you as long as someone doesn't worship the way you do.   :P

what nasty people Christians often are. 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2012, 10:53:26 AM »
Hi grasszilla

the green text indicates I am acting as a moderator and not a participant in the discussion.


Still cant quote...oh well.
Here is the link to our quoting tutorial and the users' guide.  Go there, read it, become the greatest quoter this forum has known.  While you're at it, read the Rules.   

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2012, 10:58:05 AM »
Judges 18 is about the danites. They wanted to take possession of their territory so they did. Unfortunately, they were  worshipping idols. When the israelites were claiming the land they annihilated  and decimated the settlements so they could live there and stay pure and holy and not worshiping false gods and idols like the people in canaan.

Why is that okay? 

by the way, all archaeological evidence indicates the israelites were canaanites.  They were not a foreign invasion.  judaism as we know it evolved from canaanite polytheism. There is evidence of this polythiesim or monolatry still in the bible.  For example, the first commandment says "do not worship other gods before me", explicitly endorses the existence of other gods.  Similarly, when moses had his showdown with the pharaoh's magicians, their magic worked, just not quite as good as yhwh's.  Do you know any real magicians?

Anyway, there was no exodus.  It was one of their national myths.  Like George Washington chopping down a cherry tree.
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2012, 05:35:49 PM »
Still cant quote...oh well. Judges 18 is about the danites. They wanted to take possession of their territory so they did. Unfortunately, they were  worshipping idols. When the israelites were claiming the land they annihilated  and decimated the settlements so they could live there and stay pure and holy and not worshiping false gods and idols like the people in canaan.

Wow, talk about ethnic cleansing. Interesting many Christians suggest Hitler was an atheism and his atrocities were an atheistic ideal (ignoring the amount of references to Christianity in his speeches and imagery), how you've described this passage permits those kinds of atrocities and to avoid invoking Godwin's law, the difference between the two was Hitler was talking about a superior race who was pure and should dominate other countries and eliminate those who are impure and stand in their way and God on the other hand has a superior group of people, his followers who are pure and should dominate other lands and eliminate those who are impure.

A minor difference I guess. It definitely explains the justification of the Crusades and Christianity's domination of any country it chooses to populate. Though tactics are less violent today, well...even that depends, there are still numbers of Christians in the world who listen to God's word and enact the violence it demands. Thankfully there have been reforms, but there are many who try to undo them and succeed.

The bible is incredibly violent and that is pretty damn scary considering many publicly emphasise that it is the literal command of God and MUST be obeyed, even the nasty bits we tend to consider to be unjust. What worries me more is Christians who defend these parts of the bible, such as yourself.

When posing these sorts of bible quotes to Christian friends, do you know what they say? They say it's obvious they're wrong and should be abhorred and were the laws of the people then but they're not important to the teachings about God and their faith in him. Of course, I could probably try to declare how ridiculous I think that belief is and numerous biblical contradiction, but I'm not an arsehole and I at least have basic social skills, so I leave that kind of conversation to situations where you're debating those views, not just discussing them. Whilst I think their beliefs are inaccurate and unnecessary, I appreciate that they have the individual thought to recognise and to reason what's right and what's wrong, even if the 'wrong' comes from their holy text or even practitioners of their religion, who they have an equal distaste for as I. In fact a bisexual Christian Creationist friend (might seem contradictory to many) got some harassing emails from a fellow Christian[1] about how her being bisexual was immoral in the eyes of the lord and quoted some pretty nasty quotes from the bible to her, mainly ones about how she should be put to death. So I think she understands first hand what the bible's teachings can mean to the minds of mindless sheep. And in conversation we have equally mocked such people.  :P
 1. If it's any consolation, said Christian used to do a 'Jesus' show on our student radio and my show was assigned to be the slot before hers. I am a metal head, I love Norse Pagan mythology, my show was very much about Norse paganism, me and my co-host would have a Norse god in the studio for each show and I did most of the voices for them. Much of the music we played was paganistic and Satanic. I think one of the songs I played was about butchering the Crusaders for the evil they've done, or how after centuries of persecution from Christianity Satanists would rise and take revenge. Also, I purposely faded out on Satanic tracks (like Dimmu Borgir or Mayhem) to her Jesus show. I wouldn't have done it if she wasn't bigoted. ;) I think we needed to be given a more sensible slot. :P
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2012, 09:49:40 PM »
Still cant quote...oh well. Judges 18 is about the danites. They wanted to take possession of their territory so they did. Unfortunately, they were  worshipping idols. When the israelites were claiming the land they annihilated  and decimated the settlements so they could live there and stay pure and holy and not worshiping false gods and idols like the people in canaan.

so, genocide is perfectly fine with you as long as someone doesn't worship the way you do.   :P

what nasty people Christians often are.

Grasszilla stated the usual apologetic to the Judges 18 quote, not that he necessarily agreed with it.  Perhaps we should give him the benefit of the doubt?[1]
 1. I've not read any of grasszilla's other posts, so I don't know if he's a god-botherer or not
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Offline changeling

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2012, 04:58:33 AM »
^^^ A person should not even state the usual apologetic to Judges 18 without a disclaimer.
Because if they really believe that hogwash they are a vile as any genecidal dictator.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

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Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2012, 06:15:10 AM »
The bible is incredibly violent and that is pretty damn scary considering many publicly emphasise that it is the literal command of God and MUST be obeyed, even the nasty bits we tend to consider to be unjust. What worries me more is Christians who defend these parts of the bible, such as yourself.

Unfortunately I can no longer find the source, but I remember reading a quote from a Jehovah's Witness once who said that they are conscientious objectors because there has been no "God-ordained" war in a long time but that, if God ordains a war, they would be the first to enlist. That may sound on the surface like a very peaceful attitude, but it leaves their followers wide open for a jihad-type of war.
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Re: Bible God is Cruel
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2012, 11:32:40 PM »
Sadistic means you like hurting people. God doesnt like hurting people so he sent jesus so no one would have to be sent to hell to burn and suffer for eternity in the lake of fire.

Grasszilla, if Hell actually existed, even one person suffering there for eternity would be sufficient to make the god you worship infinitely evil.

And some people, Myself included, are simply not comfortable with the idea of worshipping a god that would deliberately create and maintain a place of eternal punishment.  No one, and I do literally mean no one, past, present or future, deserves such a fate.

I'm also aghast at the idea of letting someone else die in My place.  I'm a big girl and I don't need Jesus to take the fall for Me.  If Hell actually exists, I'll go there under My own power, of My own free, for My own reasons.
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