Author Topic: Question for believers  (Read 1372 times)

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Offline ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2011, 12:20:56 AM »

He created the most horrible place in the afterlife for those who don't accept him. And to him, being an egotistical, irrational and hateful god, he finds it perfectly acceptable regardless of what we did in our lives because of our own mistake and not accepting him as our savior. To god not accepting him is a mistake on our part. God tries to appeal to our fear. And it's our mistake if we don't let him succeed.
So you believe in God.
But your problem is you hate Him because you don't like the way He created the gate way to heaven and hell.
So you know there is God in heaven but deliberately refuse Christ because you just don't like His way to save people.

How about 'abiding by the authority' even if you don't like it, or consequences are either fine or jail.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2011, 12:35:28 AM »
So you believe in God.
But your problem is you hate Him because you don't like the way He created the gate way to heaven and hell.
So you know there is God in heaven but deliberately refuse Christ because you just don't like His way to save people.

How about 'abiding by the authority' even if you don't like it, or consequences are either fine or jail.
The problem is not belief.  The whole thing is so obviously a work of pure fiction that arguing points like this is simply hypothetical.

But if a deity like this DID exist, the terms and consequences would be so unspeakably unfair that it would not be worthy of worship to begin with.

We are not talking about "jail" or "fine", but an eternity of torment...How is this in any way a fitting punishment for simply not seeing enough evidence to conclude that the god of the bible does, in fact, exist?


Offline ungod

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2011, 01:04:12 AM »
So you believe in God.
But your problem is you hate Him because you don't like the way He created the gate way to heaven and hell.

Telling half truths is a form of lying, which goes against the Commandment not to bear false witness.
You have lied by claiming God created the gateway to heaven and hell, when the truth is God created Satan and Hell.
This sinful act of yours (bearing false witness) has been emailed directly to God, so that when YOUR judgement comes up, you will be SCREWED by your own deceit. Enjoy your afterlife in the company of Lucifer!

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2011, 08:16:54 AM »
He created the most horrible place in the afterlife for those who don't accept him. And to him, being an egotistical, irrational and hateful god, he finds it perfectly acceptable regardless of what we did in our lives because of our own mistake and not accepting him as our savior. To god not accepting him is a mistake on our part. God tries to appeal to our fear. And it's our mistake if we don't let him succeed.

Thanks for saving me the typing.  And you stated it better than I would have.

Offline Historicity

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2011, 08:52:19 AM »

He created the most horrible place in the afterlife for those who don't accept him. And to him, being an egotistical, irrational and hateful god, he finds it perfectly acceptable regardless of what we did in our lives because of our own mistake and not accepting him as our savior. To god not accepting him is a mistake on our part. God tries to appeal to our fear. And it's our mistake if we don't let him succeed.
So you believe in God.

In a paragraph above that Emily said, "If your god is real ..."

So you lied about what she said.

Offline ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2011, 09:35:43 AM »
OK I overlooked that part.

Questions to everyone.

IF God exists, would you still reject Christ?

1)because His way of salvation is unfair.
2)you just don't like the bible God
3)accept Christ even if you feel the unfairness. because you want to go to heaven.

Reason I ask is my fellow Christian and I were having this conversation about God's salvation plan  whether 'Predestined or free will'.
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2011, 10:11:36 AM »
If BibleGod and all the related mythology were to be somehow proven unequivocably real to me, I suppose that I would probably be intimidated enough to at least make a show of compliance...But here's the thing; even if at that given moment everyone else on Earth would receive the same proof and the same chance to make an actual informed choice, there's still the problem of the countless people in the past who have died and presumably are in the process of eternal torture for the simple reason that they were NOT there to receive the proof they needed.

Knowing this, I just don't think that, in my heart of hearts, I could accept god's "justice" as fair, and I would not be able to shed the resentment I felt because of it. And an omnipotent god would doubtless be aware that I was merely going through the motions, thus I would not be saved by his standard anyway.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2011, 10:17:02 AM »
“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” C. S. Lewis

So what?  All I see is a Christian wanting to be a special snowflake, and desperately hoping that some magical being loves him and only him, will respond like a vending machine to requests, etc. 

If you wish to retreat to the ridiculous position that if there is no god, then how do we know reality to be true, well, show me your god exists?  Show me its the only one that exists?  How do you know that some other god didnt' create the unvierse and it's just your delusion that your god is real? 

You disbeleive in other gods contantly, wasblind, gods others beleive in.  C.S. Lewis is so hilarious here with avoidance of reality.  He indeed may as well be writing more Narnia stories.   
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Offline ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2011, 10:24:50 AM »
How about you Velkyn.
Would you accept Christ IF God exists?

Or not? because of the unfairness.
or because of people in the past.
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system.

Offline ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2011, 10:25:57 AM »
Thank you for your answer.
Jynnan
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2011, 10:29:03 AM »
So you believe in God.
But your problem is you hate Him because you don't like the way He created the gate way to heaven and hell.
So you know there is God in heaven but deliberately refuse Christ because you just don't like His way to save people.

How about 'abiding by the authority' even if you don't like it, or consequences are either fine or jail.

Talking about a character in a book of fiction doesn't mean one beleives in it.   Your god is a violent petty little god, like so many from the Bronze/Iron age.  The bible is full of how this god, supposedly omnipotent and omniscient fails at every turn. 

We have this god either complict in allowing a "snake" into Eden, either too ignorant on what would happen or desiring it. 

Then we get the flood, where God knew this would need to happen and then came up with this ridiculous plan to have 8 people and evidently thousands of animals, bacteria, food, on a boat he made all the while supposedly in a world that was so corrupt that how he got it done is a mystery.  God murders everyone but these by drowning because this god vanished for an unknown amount of time, also unable to control its angels from procreating with man.  Right after this, we have the "chosen" humans, getting drunk and cursing each other.  God really picks them doesn't he?  ;D 

Then God gets suprised by a tower and so afraid of humans he has to make them speak different languages (forgetting in the chapter before that they already do). 

Jump to the Exodus, where God decides that laws will work and they promptly don't.   

Then a couple thousand(?) years later after much fighting and god approved genocide, this god finally decides that bloodily killing himself for himself in answer to rules he made himself would be the "real" way to be saved.  But there's still a problem since this god has also decided that some people won't ever be allowed to accept this nonsense and thus will be damned on a whim.   

We then finish up with the crazy finale in Revelation, where this god, supposedly so concerned with fighting Satan, etc, again works with this great evil, in that he "must" release the beast from the pit, *after* JC has reigned on earth and after all evil people were killed.  God simply must release this evil to corrupt some more people even after he's won. 

What a silly story.     
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2011, 10:35:36 AM »
How about you Velkyn.
Would you accept Christ IF God exists?

Or not? because of the unfairness.
or because of people in the past.

No.  I am not inclined to accept, and by this I am guessing you mean worship, JC or your god at all.  First, I am morally superior to these characters.  I do not intentionally make sure some people will never be able to avoid the hellish fate this being has planned for those who do not accept him.   I do not call people "dogs". 

To worship something because it is simply powerful is wrong and I would hope that you really wouldn't do such a thing, though I am afraid that is the only reason you, and so many others, are theists.  Doing this shows the mindset of a coward, that only power is to be respected.  I would not follow the Nazi party for the same reason I would not follow your god.  I am better than both and I do not do anything out of fear or greed.  Kill me, condemn me to hell, I do not care.   I am better than that.

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2011, 10:50:42 AM »
Assuming that Eloi means "if the story recounted in the Bible is accurate in all respects, would you believe in Jesus", my answer is simply no.  There are lots of reasons, but perhaps the simplest is that God cursed humans for eating from the tree of knowledge, even though he put the tree in the garden and made it available to eat from, and did nothing to rectify this situation for thousands of years.  And even then, it was nothing more than telling humans that if they begged for forgiveness, for something done by people who had been long dead, he would graciously take them back, but if they didn't, then they would spend an eternity in pain and suffering.  Not because of anything they did, but because of the "original sin".  Note that these are based on things that other Christians have actually said.

Such a being is not worth venerating or worshiping, because this is the ultimate expression of "might makes right".  For justice to be just, the powerful have to be held accountable to the same rules that the weak are.  And the Biblical version of God is not accountable to anything.  I categorically refuse to give my allegiance to a being which is not accountable for its own actions.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2011, 11:10:50 AM »
Thank you so much for your honest answers.
This is getting way more interesting than I thought.
I am starting a new topic.
Eloi, atheists don't have a "belief" system.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2011, 11:34:13 AM »
OK I overlooked that part.

Questions to everyone.

IF God exists, would you still reject Christ?

1)because His way of salvation is unfair.
2)you just don't like the bible God
3)accept Christ even if you feel the unfairness. because you want to go to heaven.

Reason I ask is my fellow Christian and I were having this conversation about God's salvation plan  whether 'Predestined or free will'.

I had a 5-star answer typed up and I hit shift and alt simultaneously by accident and got locked out and had to shut down internet explorer. Damn!

Let me try again...........

When you ask such a question as “If God exists,” it’s necessary to clarify exactly what you mean. I assume you are referring to the God of the Bible, so I’ll answer as if that is in fact the case. But first, we must consider that by accepting God as presented in the books of the Bible, we must first accept the Bible as being true, accurate, and inerrant. If it is not, then its contents cannot be fully trusted and basing anything off of its contents as if it offered a solid foundation proves not only foolish, but problematic in various ways. Furthermore, if God exists, how do we know that the God that exists is in fact the God of the Bible? The point of what I’m getting at is that it is not so much God that is the focus, but rather the Bible that tells of God. I can tell you from experience that virtually no one here believes or accepts that the Bible is in fact the inspired Word of God as is fails, in almost every observably way in being representative of a writing inspired by an immeasurably wise, immeasurably powerful being that wished to communicate clearly and effectively with our species through its pages. In other words, if God were to exist and wished to inspire a book, HE WOULD HAVE DONE BETTER than the Bible.
Now, to your questions……

IF God as described in the scriptures exists I would fear, respect, and have a deep burning desire to question His actions and reasoning as it pertains to the lives and the suffering endured by those who he had not chosen as “vessels of honor” that would inherit eternal life. It seems pointless to me for God to give life to someone in an orphaned state in war torn region where disease, pain, and famine are what makes up the person’s daily routine, and they never get to hear about how to attain salvation or even know that there is something they can be saved from. At the same time I would be grateful, immeasurably so that God created me and allowed me to be of the chosen who’d learn of salvation and the means to attain it. I would definitely accept God’s Anointed King, Jesus, because not doing so would be foolish and suicidal.       

*disclaimer* (I do not believe that the Bible teaches that salvation = Heaven and not receiving salvation = Hell. I believe it teaches that those who are not ultimately saved from the wages of sin will die a 2nd death having no hope of living eternally anywhere, much less Happy Bliss Land.)
1.   What exactly is the way of salvation? What are people able to be saved from specifically? As best I can tell from reading the scriptures old, new, and even non Abrahamic, death is the ultimate fate that one can be saved from. According to the Bible the wages of sin is death, but in Jesus it is possible to attain the gift of eternal life, meaning salvation in the ultimate sense means being gifted with eternal life. But what is the process? That is an area where the Bible is not as clear as a message given from GOD should be. The Christian religion tells us that one must believe in Jesus to be saved, BUT scriptures such as Luke 10:25-29, that are supposed quotes of Jesus himself, do not say as much. According to Jesus in Luke 10 as well as texts like Matthew 25:34-40, he is quoted as saying that receiving everlasting life and a place in his kingdom are awarded based on how one loves and treats God and one’s fellow man explaining that doing good to people equates with doing do to and serving Jesus. Nowhere do those texts even mention faith in Christ as a necessity for salvation and life. Is that what you believe is necessary for salvation and eternal life? Why or why not?

2.   See paragraph above 1.

3.   I’d accept Jesus because he was the king and ruler and if I wished to live eternally within the realm of his kingdom, then what other choice would I have? I’d have love and respect for Jesus as well because according to the scriptures he would have been king whether or not he suffered and made a way for me and mine to have eternal life, yet he choose to suffer anyway. I can appreciate the love and consideration.

Offline Roq

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Re: Question for believers
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2011, 11:55:03 AM »
There's something homo erotic / sado-masochistic that comes across in the portrayal of Jesus (terminology such as "would you accept jesus into your soul" just smacks of this). Most notably that of the Roman Catholic church; and I find that a bit repellent. Perhaps Jesus should have been portrayed as more of a John Wayne figure with less of that hypocritical turn the other cheek stuff.