Author Topic: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]  (Read 1297 times)

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Online pianodwarf

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Moderator's note:  I have decided to remove the contact information given in the original email, going on the assumption, as is usually the case, that the LW was not anticipating having the letter posted publicly, and also because the contact information provided was not his own but someone else's.  I would hope that the LW will join us to further defend his claims and provide such contact information himself should he deem it proper to do so.

Some of the points you made in your article on the Internet about God being imaginary and the effects of prayer being non-provable are provably incorrect.
A prayer research group called Spindrift did extremely painstaking and accurate laboratory tests measuring the effects of prayer in the 1970's and into the 1980's.
Their research papers (which may still be available) formed the basis for books by Dr Larry Dossey and others who have seen the effects of prayers in controlled environments.
You can talk to a former member of the group, [name redacted] by calling him at [phone number redacted]. He would be glad to tell you about the rigerous scientific testing that was done in a number of areas to prove the qualitative and statistical validation of the effects of prayer.
Afterwards, you may want to revise a number of  statements in your article.
Tell him that [name redacted] contacted you.
Best wishes
[name redacted]
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Alzael

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2011, 05:24:10 PM »
I just finished some of that stuff.

Their experiments, I would like to point out, also include trying to establish psychic activity in random numbers as well.

The experiments are here http://www.spindriftresearch.org/pages/experiments.php.

I can't even begin to describe how sloppy this "research" is.

When you clain to be doing a blind test and say in your report that "most" of the participants were unaware of what was being done.....you shold stop trying to pretend that you're doing legitimate science.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline Locke

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2011, 05:24:45 PM »
So it was a study by a "prayer group".. Did they bother testing a placebo?
Quote
See, there is a problem with not just you, but alot of you. You think of things too logically.

Offline Alzael

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2011, 05:35:38 PM »
So it was a study by a "prayer group".. Did they bother testing a placebo?

Nope. All of the groups prayed.

Like I said, too much sloppy work to comment on.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2011, 07:59:36 PM »
Yeah, I'd agree that it's sloppy.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2011, 01:20:02 AM »

Some of the points you made in your article on the Internet about God being imaginary and the effects of prayer being non-provable are provably incorrect.


Thankyou for this invaluable information.

Quote

Afterwards, you may want to revise a number of  statements in your article.


Just like creationists do, whenever someone points out that they are wrong.

Seriously, I'm glad you hold atheists to a higher standard than you do your own kind.

We wait for news of amputees being healed.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Historicity

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 07:30:29 PM »
I can find a telepaths in any class of students.

First get 30 decks of the cheapest cards.  Throw out court cards and jokers.

Pair up the members of the class.  Have one transmit the suit and one receive.  Use any kind of barrier you want.  Telepathy may not be electromagnetic but may work by quantum synchronicity changing the shape of the Schrödinger function dropping to a lower continuum[1].
 
Remove the member pairs who show the lowest scores[2].

With a group of 60  or 70 (30 pairs) with 5 trials you usually will find a pair of people who score above average every time.  They are telepathic at least with each other.

But telepathy is a delicate hothouse flower.  Telepaths are extremely sensitive people and anything may upset them.  The attention of winning and people looking at them may upset them.  Then telepathy goes away and you need to carefully examine the circumstances. 

That's how some of the famous Duke Parapsychology Studies where conducted.

Of course you don't need people.  Just do the above with 60 decks of cards paired.  Shuffle and compare the pairs.  In 5 rounds you will find a pair of decks that are in synchronicity.  Or use 60 pennies as pairs.

Because 2^5 = 32.  So in 5 rounds you will have winnowed down to a 3.1% chance.

The self delusion was enhanced by discarding the losers which were the control groups.

I got that from Martin Gardner's Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science.
 1. "He went thru all his forms -- human, animal and demonoid as he tried to change the shape of his Schrödinger function and drop to the lower continuum." -- Poul Anderson's Operation: Chaos
 2. muggles

Offline Historicity

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 07:39:31 PM »
I forgot to note that Duke University's lab also introduced "negative telepathy" and doubled their number of physics.  That is, they repeated the experiment and picked people who must be -- just must be -- what other explanation could there be -- blocking each other and avoiding the truth that was being transmitted.

I see Spindrift did that as well.  The influenced the random number generator to be non-random and declared a success whether it was more than expected zeroes or more than expected ones. 

I notice no info on the size of the sample or any indication that the experimenters even know what the standard deviation is.  That would be needed to find a group (set of tests) that was 95% statistically unlikely.


Offline Frank

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2011, 08:46:02 PM »
The spindrift "reseachers" are just a bunch of christian scientist cranks.

Apparently this woman is a PH'D. Great image for someone who wants to be taken as a serious researcher


She just loves the supernatural. Has written 45 books about it. Books about vampires, angels, dreams, ghosts, etc etc.

They are not accredited scientists and cannot be taken seriously. They prayed over a bunch of soybeans FFS!.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline MadBunny

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2011, 08:55:10 PM »
Which side do you think your experiment group belongs on?



If praying over soybeans actually increases their production rate by 5% this means that we could increase production in the US from 91 million metric tons by almost 5 million tons!

That would be 1.75 BILLION US dollars a year.  Out of curiosity, do you know why they don't bother doing this?  I mean, we're talking almost 2 billion dollars a year.
http://www.soystats.com/2010/Default-frames.htm

I'm pretty sure you already know the answer as to why nobody bothers doing this.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 09:05:44 PM by MadBunny »
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Offline kin hell

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2011, 09:54:07 PM »

 
Remove the member pairs who show the lowest scores[1].


 1. muggles
my bold


 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:...........thank you  I inhaled coffee
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Samothec

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2011, 10:40:37 PM »
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:...........thank you  I inhaled coffee

Is that some new nasal therapy?      :angel:
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Offline kin hell

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2011, 02:17:07 AM »
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:...........thank you  I inhaled coffee

Is that some new nasal therapy?      :angel:

it'snort to do with drinking in a dignified manner I will admit.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Hatter23

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2011, 08:50:36 AM »
I forgot to note that Duke University's lab also introduced "negative telepathy" and doubled their number of physics.  That is, they repeated the experiment and picked people who must be -- just must be -- what other explanation could there be -- blocking each other and avoiding the truth that was being transmitted.

I see Spindrift did that as well.  The influenced the random number generator to be non-random and declared a success whether it was more than expected zeroes or more than expected ones. 

I notice no info on the size of the sample or any indication that the experimenters even know what the standard deviation is.  That would be needed to find a group (set of tests) that was 95% statistically unlikely.

NegaPychs....got labeled as one by my Newage friends many years ago.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Nam

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2011, 12:05:25 PM »
To the OP,

Quote from: Sam Harris
Get a billion Christians to pray for a single amputee. Get them to pray that God regrow that missing limb. This happens to salamanders every day, presumably without prayer; this is within the capacity of God. I find it interesting that people of faith only tend to pray for conditions that are self-limiting.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2011, 03:20:30 PM »
Boy, this is good stuff.
Quote from: SpinDrift Research
Single and Double Treatments Soybeans subjected to stress were divided into four groups: control, X, Y, and Z.  The X and Y beans were prayer treated together once daily; the Y and Z beans were also treated together once daily, Y thereby receiving a double treatment each day.

       Control sprout growth: 11.5% average
       X beans additional growth: 2.0%
       Z beans additional growth: 3.1%
       Y beans (double treatment) additional growth: 5.4%

They note that the group that was prayed for twice did better than groups prayed to once daily. It fails to point out that the control group which wasn't prayed for at all had more growth than the three prayed for groups put together! That begs the question of why beans that are prayed for grow less well than beans that are not prayed for. I guess God works in mysterious ways, right?

The rest of the experiments, as other have pointed out, don't involve true blind studies, although they do seem to have a control group for most of them (at least one did not). Still, so what if these prayers appear to increase growth of soy beans? As others have said also, why not apply these principles of prayer to crop production to boost output? Why not try an experiment where you are going to restore lost limbs through prayer alone? Any actual results would be unambiguous and revolutionary. Let's see if it happens.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Samothec

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Re: There is scientific evidence based on thorough scientific testing [#2614]
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2011, 08:50:54 PM »
Snipped for focus
Boy, this is good stuff.
Quote from: SpinDrift Research
Single and Double Treatments Soybeans subjected to stress were divided into four groups: control, X, Y, and Z.  The X and Y beans were prayer treated together once daily; the Y and Z beans were also treated together once daily, Y thereby receiving a double treatment each day.

       Control sprout growth: 11.5% average
       X beans additional growth: 2.0%
       Z beans additional growth: 3.1%
       Y beans (double treatment) additional growth: 5.4%

They note that the group that was prayed for twice did better than groups prayed to once daily. It fails to point out that the control group which wasn't prayed for at all had more growth than the three prayed for groups put together! That begs the question of why beans that are prayed for grow less well than beans that are not prayed for. I guess God works in mysterious ways, right?
 

I made the same mistake at first too – the author is incompetent. I've made bold the crucial wording. If the author of the article knew what he was doing he would have listed the growth then in a separate column listed the "additional" growth. Like this:

                                   Growth (average)        Difference
                                                                    from Control
Control sprout                 11.5%                             x
X beans                          13.5%                         +2.0%
Z beans                          14.6%                         +3.1%
Y beans (2x trtmnt)        16.9%                          +5.4%
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther