Author Topic: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........  (Read 1170 times)

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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2011, 02:08:37 PM »


Quote
Like men being denied the right to form a group for men who were sexually abused?[1] Or men who are physically and sexually abused by women?[2] Or male children being taught that they are the lowliest form of life on Earth, like the theists did (and some still do) to homosexuals?
 1. Yeah, it happens. Men get no support for it, though.
 2. Yeah, also happens. The percentages are en par with that of women who are physically and sexually abused by men.

Ah, where does this "happen"?  As you know, I don't take "yeah it happens" as evidence. And where are boys taught this? If there are places, I'd love to know so I can express my disapproval to them since I find all humans to be judged on their abilities not their fleshy appendages. 


I was abused by my wife, on a pretty frequent basis. Yes, it does happen. No, there is not much support for male victims of spousal abuse. I once had to attend a training for domestic violence issues (due to that being one of the target groups of clients I was working with at the time) and the company that presented the training, a company that deals solely with victims of domestic violence, actually said that they didn't think it was important to talk about men abused by their wives/girlfriends, and that was in fact all of the mention it got. Having been a victim of such abuse, I found this pretty insensitive and ignorant on their part.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2011, 02:13:40 PM »
agreeed.  But this is not the same as being "denied the right" as has been claimed.  Is it bad that it's hard for abusees to get help?  Of course.  Is it the fault of some evil plot by feminists?  I don't see it and I do see a culture that ridicules men for needing such things, the culture of callign things "gay" if you don't like it, that is rather fearful of anything that is not "manly", etc.  A lot of my male friends in high school were the intellectuals, daring not to be involved in sports.  I know how they were treated.  They were beat up by the "manly" types.  There was no kitten with a whip making them act "femme".
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 02:15:16 PM by velkyn »
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2011, 02:15:50 PM »
SO I was about to get into how men and women are different chemically and based on chemistry each is predisposed to certin behaviors that may differ. I was gonna say that the male dispositions tend to get a finger wave while the female dispositions are often applauded. I attempted to find something to back up my assertation, but I came across this website instead and it gave me a laugh. So, I decided to share it.

 http://www.suslik.org/Humour/Women/woman.html


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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2011, 02:19:30 PM »
So you’ve never lived in a world where women weren’t at least fighting to be seen equal to men.

Nope. If I had, I'd be supporting them every step of the way.

Women and men are indeed different physically; you don’t have a uterus and I don’t have testes.  What does this have to do with how they “should” and “should not” behave?

Nothing at all. You'll notice that I disagree with gender behavioral stereotypes, as I explained in my first post in this topic.

Yes, they do deserve the same rights.  I’m questioning the claims that “women” are putting the “man” down.

http://weddedabyss.wordpress.com/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/07/26/mirth-in-the-mutilation-of-men/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/05/theyre-calling-for-slavery-now/
http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/descrim.htm

Also kaziglu bey's post.

No, dear, I’m asking you.  You made the claim, you answer it.

I provided pianodwarf as evidence. The added "ask him" was just in case you wanted to know specific details (year, et cetera).

And yep, men can be raped.  Been happening in prisons for years.  In the article, the men met for a workshop.  I see no “oppression” or “ostracizing” of men by a feminizing culture here. 

To quote from the article:

Quote
Margot Wallström, the UN special representative of the secretary-general for sexual violence in conflict, insists in a statement that the UNHCR extends its services to refugees of both genders. But she concedes that the "great stigma" men face suggests that the real number of survivors is higher than that reported. Wallström says the focus remains on women because they are "overwhelmingly" the victims. Nevertheless, she adds, "we do know of many cases of men and boys being raped."

But when I contact Stemple by email, she describes a "constant drum beat that women are the rape victims" and a milieu in which men are treated as a "monolithic perpetrator class".

Underlined for emphasis.

EDIT: I am still trying to find the article I found a couple of days ago about males (in the UK, IIRC) being denied the right to form a group to help other males who were raped.
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2011, 02:21:46 PM »
agreeed.  But this is not the same as being "denied the right" as has been claimed.  Is it bad that it's hard for abusees to get help?  Of course.  Is it the fault of some evil plot by feminists?  I don't see it and I do see a culture that ridicules men for needing such things, the culture of callign things "gay" if you don't like it, that is rather fearful of anything that is not "manly", etc.  A lot of my male friends in high school were the intellectuals, daring not to be involved in sports.  I know how they were treated.  They were beat up by the "manly" types.  There was no kitten with a whip making them act "femme".

I don't think it's a plot by feminists. I merely think that it illustrates the disparity that exists on both sides. Domestic Violence against women is considered a great social evil, but if a woman abuses a man, eh, who cares? The double standard is not acceptable.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2011, 02:26:36 PM »
.............I don't see it and I do see a culture that ridicules men for needing such things, the culture of callign things "gay" if you don't like it, that is rather fearful of anything that is not "manly", etc.  A lot of my male friends in high school were the intellectuals, daring not to be involved in sports.  I know how they were treated.  They were beat up by the "manly" types.  There was no kitten with a whip making them act "femme".

I wasn't gonna say anything, but I see yet another post that in a way can be seen as contrasting being a small intellectual with being manly as if the two are not quite often overlapping qualities.
I would argue that the smart guy, if that's his only defining charactoristic is no more laughed at than the dumb jock that can do nothing but play ball. One just is less likely to be laughed at to his face because he may appear more imposing physically. 

Offline velkyn

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2011, 02:56:30 PM »
I wasn't gonna say anything, but I see yet another post that in a way can be seen as contrasting being a small intellectual with being manly as if the two are not quite often overlapping qualities.
I would argue that the smart guy, if that's his only defining charactoristic is no more laughed at than the dumb jock that can do nothing but play ball. One just is less likely to be laughed at to his face because he may appear more imposing physically.

You could argue it but I have yet to see that it's true and this reads as no more than "but but they do it too" with no evidence.  And yes, in society, I agree that being intellectual is often seen as unmanly.  And who is responsible for that?  As my husband (who is being amused at this thread) has said is it some "secret feminazi cult that is after mens' precious bodily fluids?"  Or is it other men?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2011, 03:20:41 PM »
Nope. If I had, I'd be supporting them every step of the way.
that’s nice of you to say.   What you dont’ seem to realize that it took a lot of hard work to get here.  And you seem to think that women who keep on pushing are somehow “anti-men”. 

Quote
http://weddedabyss.wordpress.com/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/07/26/mirth-in-the-mutilation-of-men/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/05/theyre-calling-for-slavery-now/
http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/descrim.htm

Also kaziglu bey's post.
wow, what amazing links, Lucifer.  And what amazing ability to damn all women and all women’s rights with the actions of a few.  I really really hope you never ever get married.  If you believe that all women are like this, or that even the majority are, you’ll never be happy.  I’d ask if you understand that a lot of this nonsense was from the good ol’ days where men were real men and women had no other means of support, but you seem to be contentedly oblivious.   
Quote
I provided pianodwarf as evidence. The added "ask him" was just in case you wanted to know specific details (year, et cetera).
Sure, I’d be happy to see either of you show how you were told such things as you were innately inferior to woman.  Were there some crazy fucks out there?  Yep. Is society just rampantly full of them? No.  I have yet to see where huge numbers of men are scarred by how they all were told that they were less than women. 
Quote
To quote from the article:

Quote
Margot Wallström, the UN special representative of the secretary-general for sexual violence in conflict, insists in a statement that the UNHCR extends its services to refugees of both genders. But she concedes that the "great stigma" men face suggests that the real number of survivors is higher than that reported. Wallström says the focus remains on women because they are "overwhelmingly" the victims. Nevertheless, she adds, "we do know of many cases of men and boys being raped."

But when I contact Stemple by email, she describes a "constant drum beat that women are the rape victims" and a milieu in which men are treated as a "monolithic perpetrator class".

Underlined for emphasis.

EDIT: I am still trying to find the article I found a couple of days ago about males (in the UK, IIRC) being denied the right to form a group to help other males who were raped.
I found a rant about how men weren’t allowed to have the same rights as Title IX too but then reality struck and it was revealed that they did have the same rights. They weren’t taking advantage of them (http://news.mensactivism.org/node/17347) .  Now why would this be? Again, is it the attitudes of men on what “manly” is or is it women trying to make men less than “manly”? 

Yep, there is a constant drumbeat for female victims. This by itself doesn’t prevent men from getting attention  Why aren’t men getting as much attention?  Could it be the attitudes of other men? Sure seems like it.  The male victims  are horribly shamed, horribly embarrassed because such things don’t happen to men often (at least not talked about).  Again, I fail to see where women’s rights caused any of these horrible things.  These are also men on men rapes, not women on men. Can that happen? I’m sure it can.  But in this case, there is a pretty good reason to see men as a “monolithic perpetrator class” since they are the perpetrators here.

The OP started with an accusation that there was some horrible force at work keeping men from being “real men” and laying the blame at the feet of “feminists”. All of the problems here have yet to be shown to be from women wanting equal rights.  If you want to say that problems are caused by batshit crazy extremists, fine, but not all feminists are that and they don’t have the magical power that some seem to be trying to assign them. It’s like any scapegoat/conspiracy theory.  If feminists actually had the power you would wish them to have so they could be at fault, what we would do!  But we don’t and we can’t. We can’t even get a damn ERA passed. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2011, 03:35:21 PM »
that’s nice of you to say.   What you dont’ seem to realize that it took a lot of hard work to get here.  And you seem to think that women who keep on pushing are somehow “anti-men”. 

I most certainly do not. In my video I speak of women who are not promoted as often as men because they are deemed unfit, since they can get pregnant. This is clear discrimination. It's not 1500; we have computers, cellphones, et cetera, and people (which includes women) can work from home if necessary.


wow, what amazing links, Lucifer.  And what amazing ability to damn all women and all women’s rights with the actions of a few.  I really really hope you never ever get married.  If you believe that all women are like this, or that even the majority are, you’ll never be happy.

I am beginning to grow tired of your strawmen. I do not want to remove women's rights any more than I want to remove men's rights or black people's rights or white people's rights, nor do I believe there are things that are intrinsically "manly" or "girly". I also know that these occurrences are a minority, but the problem is that they're becoming increasingly frequent.

I’d ask if you understand that a lot of this nonsense was from the good ol’ days where men were real men and women had no other means of support, but you seem to be contentedly oblivious.

If you want to call me an idiot, do it. Don't beat around the bush.

Sure, I’d be happy to see either of you show how you were told such things as you were innately inferior to woman.

I have never been taught that I was innately inferior to anyone.

Were there some crazy fucks out there?  Yep. Is society just rampantly full of them? No.  I have yet to see where huge numbers of men are scarred by how they all were told that they were less than women. 

Despite what you may think, men are just as fragile as women. We are scarred by many events in our lives. And even if there was just a single man who was scarred by being told that he was less than women, does that make it right?


I found a rant about how men weren’t allowed to have the same rights as Title IX too but then reality struck and it was revealed that they did have the same rights. They weren’t taking advantage of them (http://news.mensactivism.org/node/17347) .

It's called a "mistake". Sometimes they happen.

Now why would this be? Again, is it the attitudes of men on what “manly” is or is it women trying to make men less than “manly”?

Again, I do not believe that anything is intrinsically manly or feminine.

Yep, there is a constant drumbeat for female victims. This by itself doesn’t prevent men from getting attention  Why aren’t men getting as much attention?  Could it be the attitudes of other men? Sure seems like it.  The male victims  are horribly shamed, horribly embarrassed because such things don’t happen to men often (at least not talked about).  Again, I fail to see where women’s rights caused any of these horrible things.  These are also men on men rapes, not women on men. Can that happen? I’m sure it can.  But in this case, there is a pretty good reason to see men as a “monolithic perpetrator class” since they are the perpetrators here.

It's not women's rights that caused this. Women's rights caused women to get rights, which is a good thing. This is just anti-male discrimination. Some males do speak about male rape, but they are denied help or even acknowledgement by females. See the underlined part of my previous post again.

The OP started with an accusation that there was some horrible force at work keeping men from being “real men” and laying the blame at the feet of “feminists”. All of the problems here have yet to be shown to be from women wanting equal rights.  If you want to say that problems are caused by batshit crazy extremists, fine, but not all feminists are that and they don’t have the magical power that some seem to be trying to assign them. It’s like any scapegoat/conspiracy theory.  If feminists actually had the power you would wish them to have so they could be at fault, what we would do!  But we don’t and we can’t. We can’t even get a damn ERA passed. 

See everything above.
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We choose our own gods.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2011, 03:49:36 PM »
but no matter what you say or who does it, men wearing ballet tights, short Daisy Duke shorts, or fitted biker shorts is still gay.

That is your subjective, homophobic point of view.  I am sure that somewhere in the universe there is a culture that thinks gangsta thug wannabes with their pants hangin down around their knees and their hats all turned side-ways are the epitome of gay.


Someone thinks these two are cocksmokers.

ToT Dictionary
*gay* - quality of a man doing, wearing, or being involved in something that the majority of men would historically laugh at and make fun of due to the fact that they charactorize it as a man card offense.    

Historically?  Are you sure you want to say "historically"?  Because I do not think you do.  At one point in history this was the height of manliness:


I think you mean the opposite of historically.  Because historically makes my point for me - that your opinion on the matter is rooted in a particular time and place and does not consider general or abstract notions of manliness.

Historically, the ancient Greeks predeliction for banging pubescent boys was, at the time, manly.  Certain current African tribesmen getting oral sex from boys is considered, by them, to be manly.  Even in modern arab nations men hold hands:


Two fags?  Or just different ideas of manliness?

Bottom line: it is subjective.  Real men, like me, know that.

On a more serious note ST, it does matter what others think, especially when their line of thinking drives the train (I know you are familiar with this argument).

Yes and no. Social mores and norms are... social.  And those determine gender roles.  Thus, manliness is itself subjective, transient, historically unstable.  You are trying to apply yesterday's ideas from a specific province to the world at large today.  That makes your beliefs out of date.  Stale.  Old news. And not universally relevant.  But if that is what you insist on, then damn the torpedoes and be the cave man you want to be with the understanding that is how you will be perceived.  Either way, quit bitching about it.  Real men don't whine about perceptions. 


It seems, based on these depictions that as long as a man can find himself in a sexual setting with a woman that that somehow trumps all else and qualifies as man, especially if the woman is hot.............

That's because you omitted the photo of the guy with his face in the other guy's crotch.  Here are some more manly men, because they don't give a rat's ass how girly you think they are.  They know real men don't have to conform to narrow definitions of manliness.


Whoa, the Latinos!  Well, one Lation.  The one on the right, in case you couldn't tell.  So gay, by TOT closet case standards.  Pero, son mucho macho!


Punjabis.  They may dress like Rita Moreno sans the pineapple, but in India, this is the equivalent of a tattoo of Rambo shooting the M-60.


Not only is this guy wearing a skirt, but he's also got a pink thong on too, if I'm not mistaken.  And given that he's in an elite military unit, I dare say he would not have much problem killing a man with a rolled up magazine.  Manly as hell.


Why would you even go here, for real? So because various people charactorize men who aren't "in touch with their feminine sides" as insecure in their manhood, I'm supposed to buy that crap? What-freakin'-ever!

Why?  Because it seems obvious to me but an utter mystery to you.

At the risk of getting racial, maybe this is just a black thing in your case?  Every black guy I've ever met has been preoccupied - borderin on obsessed - with proving/ asserting his machismo, as if the slightest whiff of femininity made him a cake-walking friend of Dorothy.  You know, if you go to google and type in "homophobia in the" the second autofill is "homophobia in the black community".  Do you think African American culture has a problem with homophobia?

http://www.blacklightonline.com/phobia2.html
Quote
In a recent interview comedian Richard Pryor said, "Straight black people often have a hard time dealing with gays. All my life I've seen that macho shit in the black neighborhoods, where you try to eliminate someone mentally, to get out of dealing with them by saying, 'Oh, you're a faggot, you don't know from nothing .'"

another pretty good artcle on that topic 
http://www.tnr.com/article/put-differently/89921/tracy-morgan-black-men-f-word


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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2011, 04:33:15 PM »
ST, we are on a forum where dissenting ideas and opinions are constantly expressed and appreciated and you bring up a point that has some merit; No offense taken! Generally, the black community is very homophobic and unashamed of it. Each individual of course is different, but when viewed as a collective I can tell you that black men think a lot of stuff is "gay," especially things European men would consider normal and non-gay from one's posture, one's clothing, to one's speaking pattern.
Why did you have to show the picture of the young men with their pants hanging off their ass? Such an embarrassment............

In addition to the things mentioned above, in many ways we, (the collective, not each individual) are led to believe that black men are physically superior (more manly than) to men of other races and if given an equal opportunity, would prove to be perhaps intellectualy superior and more able to cope with the difficulties in life throws at us than others. Those attitudes along with the reality of past oppression fueled the fires of the whole "the white man is keeping us down cause they are scared of us attitude."  As sad and misinformed as that may be on so many levels, such attitudes are pervasive in many black communities.

I definately have my own biases, and if homophobic means being bothered by men behaving in a manner that doesn't fit into my view of what is acceptable male behave and presenting themselves publically as such, then I'm guilty as charged.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2011, 06:49:10 AM »
ST, we are on a forum where dissenting ideas and opinions are constantly expressed and appreciated and you bring up a point that has some merit; No offense taken!

I appreciate that.  A lot of times issues like this are lindmines and it is easy for them to turn into fingerpointing and accusations of racism.


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Offline Truth OT

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Maybe My Sh*t Does Stink..........
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2011, 09:43:46 AM »
I'm starting to become more and more fearful that in the next 20 to 50 years the practice of circumcision will be replaced with castration. I say this because TO ME, it seems that many are offended by and wish it would become illegal for a man to actually have a dick. There's a lot of "bitchassedness" being encouraged and tolerated in men, and has me wondering, "Would I really be better served as a man if I acted more like a woman?" At this point I'm leaning towards answering YES as I feel that my roads would be smoother and my paths would have less resistance.
Mama's boys, men who whine, that wear skinny jeans, etc. seem to be in vogue; Why?

It feels good to be able to vent and have a forum where one can say some ignant sh*t sometimes. In the real world, no one aside from my wife and the guys I have discussions like this on a regular basis would hear me express such sentiments, but on here, thankfully I get to purge myself. As I step back and try to look from outside of myself and I analyze my views and my issues with a lot of what I see in the world around me, I realize that in many ways, (not all), my problem is me. I allow little things to catch my attention and cause me irritation at times for the simple reason that those things do not fit into my worldview the way I think things should. I have at times exhibited a "God Complex" in that I at times make my perspective, my ideas, and my way of doing and understanding things the penultimate that all others must strive to live up to. Such narcissism! Anyhow, I'ma try to do better and make more of an effort to not only understand that others views and ways of doing things are just "right" as my ways, but also really believe and buy into that idea.

See what happens after having a long talk with your wife..................

Offline velkyn

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2011, 09:46:11 AM »
Lucifer, if I wanted to call you an idiot, I’d do it. You should know that by now. And nice accusing me of strawmen arguments and not showing how they are.  And “increasingly frequent”?  I don’t see any evidence of that at all. 
Quote
I have never been taught that I was innately inferior to anyone.

That’s good.  Now, can you tell me why I should think that boys being taught that they are inferior to women is a huge problem then?  We have PD saying he was.  Anything else?
Quote
Despite what you may think, men are just as fragile as women. We are scarred by many events in our lives. And even if there was just a single man who was scarred by being told that he was less than women, does that make it right?
Well, Lucifer, I *don’t* think that men aren’t just as fragile as women.  My point here is that the attempts at claiming that all feminists are some horrible harridans who want all men to be reduced to slaves is a lie.  Get it?  That one man is harmed is a bad thing no matter what.  But that is no reason to try to paint all feminists as “evil” and trying to change men into something some of you are evidently terrified of &) the rampaging hordes of skinny jean’d men who are going to force you to give up your penises. 

Now why would this be? Again, is it the attitudes of men on what “manly” is or is it women trying to make men less than “manly”?
Quote
Again, I do not believe that anything is intrinsically manly or feminine.
I know, you’ve said that. That’s not the point of what I wrote.  I asked who was responsible for men supposedly not being able to have support groups?  From what I’ve read, it seems that the blame is being laid at the feet of women but the evidence for that seems to be lacking. 


Quote
It's not women's rights that caused this. Women's rights caused women to get rights, which is a good thing. This is just anti-male discrimination. Some males do speak about male rape, but they are denied help or even acknowledgement by females. See the underlined part of my previous post again.
Sheesh.  Just because women get attention and men do not, does *not* make it anti-male.  It just means women are getting attention.  Why aren’t men getting more attention?  Are women intentionally keeping them away from thing or is it men’s own attitudes against their own and themselves?  You keep saying that they are denied help but I have yet to see that this is true.  Where are they denied help, Lucifer?  Where?  And where do you see women refusing to acknowledge them?  Here’s your underlined part of your post “But when I contact Stemple by email, she describes a "constant drum beat that women are the rape victims" and a milieu in which men are treated as a "monolithic perpetrator class". 

The article goes on to say
Quote
"International human rights law leaves out men in nearly all instruments designed to address sexual violence," she continues. "The UN Security Council Resolution 1325 in 2000 treats wartime sexual violence as something that only impacts on women and girls… Secretary of State Hillary Clinton recently announced $44m to implement this resolution. Because of its entirely exclusive focus on female victims, it seems unlikely that any of these new funds will reach the thousands of men and boys who suffer from this kind of abuse. Ignoring male rape not only neglects men, it also harms women by reinforcing a viewpoint that equates 'female' with 'victim', thus hampering our ability to see women as strong and empowered. In the same way, silence about male victims reinforces unhealthy expectations about men and their supposed invulnerability."
  Now, considering that we have men largely in power in the UN, in the countries consisting of it, etc, who made the human rights laws like this?  Why not have another resolution to do the same for men? Just because funds are going to one group doesn’t mean that no one wants them to go to the other.  No one’s stopping anyone.  There’s no great cabal of women who want to deny men the same rights.  I also fail to see, as this women claims, that protecting women and acknowledging that they can be victims makes them unable to feel strong and empowered.  I certainly don’t feel that way at all.   
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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2011, 10:08:35 AM »
Lucifer, if I wanted to call you an idiot, I’d do it. You should know that by now.

Not really.

And nice accusing me of strawmen arguments and not showing how they are.

I thought it was painfully obvious, but here you go:
You said
Quote from: velkyn link=topic=20531.msg453983.html#msg453983
wow, what amazing links, Lucifer.  And what amazing ability to damn all women and all women’s rights with the actions of a few.  I really really hope you never ever get married.  If you believe that all women are like this, or that even the majority are, you’ll never be happy.
despite the fact that I said nothing of the sort. I have repeatedly said in this topic that I support equal rights for women (all people, really, but women and men are the main topic here) and I didn't say that I believe all women are like this (I know they're not mostly due to my discussions with women on these matters).

And “increasingly frequent”?  I don’t see any evidence of that at all.

50 years ago male kids weren't being taught that they were inferior. Now they are. That's an increase, as far as I know.

Now, can you tell me why I should think that boys being taught that they are inferior to women is a huge problem then?  We have PD saying he was.  Anything else?

We have PD saying, and I quote:
I definitely hear you.  I was a child in the Seventies, when the feminist movement was at its most active, and it took me a very long time to become aware of the effects that the indoctrination in my childhood had on me: that men are inherently inferior to women purely on the basis of their gender, that it's unethical for a man to have a libido (or at least to ever express sexual interest in a woman), and all kinds of other things.  It took me a long time to deprogram all that stuff out of myself, and in fact, I'm not sure I'll ever be certain that I've fully recovered from it.

If you can tell me how that type of indoctrination is not harmful, despite the fact that it's the same lies that theists tell homosexuals (and we all know how it makes them feel), I'll concede that it's not a huge problem.
If you're trying to say that few cases=it's not a big problem, that's up to personal interpretation. One single person suffering at the hands of another or a group is a big problem for me.

Well, Lucifer, I *don’t* think that men aren’t just as fragile as women.  My point here is that the attempts at claiming that all feminists are some horrible harridans who want all men to be reduced to slaves is a lie.  Get it? That one man is harmed is a bad thing no matter what.

And my point is that not all self-described feminists are like this. Some just want equal rights and (rightfully) believe men and women should be treated equally, whereas others believe men are inferior and that women should be treated like they're superior citizens. The first type of feminists are the ones I support. The second kind shouldn't get any support.

But that is no reason to try to paint all feminists as “evil” and trying to change men into something some of you are evidently terrified of &) the rampaging hordes of skinny jean’d men who are going to force you to give up your penises.

I like skinny jeans. I also like my penis. I wouldn't give it up to save my own life.

I know, you’ve said that. That’s not the point of what I wrote.  I asked who was responsible for men supposedly not being able to have support groups?  From what I’ve read, it seems that the blame is being laid at the feet of women but the evidence for that seems to be lacking.

Sheesh.  Just because women get attention and men do not, does *not* make it anti-male.  It just means women are getting attention.  Why aren’t men getting more attention?  Are women intentionally keeping them away from thing or is it men’s own attitudes against their own and themselves?  You keep saying that they are denied help but I have yet to see that this is true.  Where are they denied help, Lucifer?  Where?  And where do you see women refusing to acknowledge them?  Here’s your underlined part of your post “But when I contact Stemple by email, she describes a "constant drum beat that women are the rape victims" and a milieu in which men are treated as a "monolithic perpetrator class". 

The article goes on to say
Quote
"International human rights law leaves out men in nearly all instruments designed to address sexual violence," she continues. "The UN Security Council Resolution 1325 in 2000 treats wartime sexual violence as something that only impacts on women and girls… Secretary of State Hillary Clinton recently announced $44m to implement this resolution. Because of its entirely exclusive focus on female victims, it seems unlikely that any of these new funds will reach the thousands of men and boys who suffer from this kind of abuse. Ignoring male rape not only neglects men, it also harms women by reinforcing a viewpoint that equates 'female' with 'victim', thus hampering our ability to see women as strong and empowered. In the same way, silence about male victims reinforces unhealthy expectations about men and their supposed invulnerability."
  Now, considering that we have men largely in power in the UN, in the countries consisting of it, etc, who made the human rights laws like this?  Why not have another resolution to do the same for men? Just because funds are going to one group doesn’t mean that no one wants them to go to the other.  No one’s stopping anyone.  There’s no great cabal of women who want to deny men the same rights.  I also fail to see, as this women claims, that protecting women and acknowledging that they can be victims makes them unable to feel strong and empowered.  I certainly don’t feel that way at all.   

After extensively[1] researching this once again, I must agree that the blame is not on all women; it is on both genders.
 1. And when I say "extensively" I mean it.
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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2011, 10:20:44 AM »
Lucifer, if I wanted to call you an idiot, I’d do it.

I vouch for that.
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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2011, 10:37:07 AM »
Honestly, I see members of both sexes being oppressed. My dad would hit my mom when I was a kid. It took a lot of courage for her to leave him.

Yet movies like Disclosure with Michael Douglas illustrate the skepticism and distaste society seems to have toward adult male victims. On numerous popular sitcoms, the dad character is portrayed as dumb and inept while the mom and kids are witty. Also, my sister used to hit her boyfriend quite often. I finally told her to knock that shit off. It was not OK for her to hit her boyfriend and call him an idiot just because he is a guy that is bigger than her.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 10:42:50 AM by curiousgirl »
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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2011, 10:41:37 AM »
TruthOT:
Quote
As I step back and try to look from outside of myself and I analyze my views and my issues with a lot of what I see in the world around me, I realize that in many ways, (not all), my problem is me.
This is a step in the right direction, ToT, if I may say so. It seems to me that you've couched this whole argument in general terms i.e. as it affects society, but beneath that there seem to be personal issues.

For example, may I  suggest that you analyse this statement of yours (my bolding):
Quote
if homophobic means being bothered by men behaving in a manner that doesn't fit into my view of what is acceptable male behave [behaviour] and presenting themselves publically as such, then I'm guilty as charged.
1. What exactly do you mean when you say it 'bothers' you? Does it make you angry? Or uncomfortable? Or scared? Or, God forbid, curious?

2. What exactly do you mean when you say that you don't 'accept' someone's behaviour? Do you mean merely that you wouldn't behave like that yourself? Or does it mean that you actively try to stop other people behaving like that in public (or in private)?

40% of Americans would like homosexual behaviour to be re-criminalized.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 10:51:08 AM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2011, 10:50:59 AM »
I'm starting to become more and more fearful that in the next 20 to 50 years the practice of circumcision will be replaced with castration. I say this because TO ME, it seems that many are offended by and wish it would become illegal for a man to actually have a dick. There's a lot of "bitchassedness" being encouraged and tolerated in men, and has me wondering, "Would I really be better served as a man if I acted more like a woman?" At this point I'm leaning towards answering YES as I feel that my roads would be smoother and my paths would have less resistance.
Mama's boys, men who whine, that wear skinny jeans, etc. seem to be in vogue; Why?

I can see what your say with more stay at home Dad then mothers, but to say that being a man would be offensive,  is not true. I think that a lot of the women who are brought up in a single parent home have this attitude that they dont need a man and simple express it in a way that you take it this way. I think it is more of a pride thing.

Honestly, I see members of both sexes being oppressed. My dad would hit my mom when I was a kid. It took a lot of courage for her to leave him.

No child should ever see that.

Yet movies like Disclosure with Michael Douglas illustrate the skepticism and distaste society seems to have toward adult male victims. On numerous popular sitcoms, the dad character is portrayed as dumb and inept while the mom and kids are witty. Also, my sister used to hit her boyfriend quite often. I finally told her to knock that shit off. It was not OK for her to hit her boyfriend and call him an idiot just because he is a guy that is bigger than her.
 

Couldn't this be just role reversal from when the men in movies use to do this to women?
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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2011, 11:03:04 AM »
VS80, I don't think the role reversal was for aesthetic or entertainment purposes. I think it is because the movie was illustrating a genuine disbelief or skepticism that people have toward male victims of sexual harassment. People tend to think that if a woman is hot, a straight guy will love when she puts the moves on him. Not necessarily true.
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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2011, 11:07:24 AM »
People tend to think that if a woman is hot, a straight guy will love when she puts the moves on him. Not necessarily true.

This is probably the smartest thing anyone has ever said in this thread. I almost threw up once because one of my friends hugged me without warning. And that wasn't even "putting moves on me".
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2011, 11:12:28 AM »
For example, may I  suggest that you analyse this statement of yours (my bolding):
Quote
if homophobic means being bothered by men behaving in a manner that doesn't fit into my view of what is acceptable male behave [behaviour] and presenting themselves publically as such, then I'm guilty as charged.
1. What exactly do you mean when you say it 'bothers' you? Does it make you angry? Or uncomfortable? Or scared? Or, God forbid, curious?

2. What exactly do you mean when you say that you don't 'accept' someone's behaviour? Do you mean merely that you wouldn't behave like that yourself? Or does it mean that you actively try to stop other people behaving like that in public (or in private)?

40% of Americans would like homosexual behaviour to be re-criminalized.

I'm a very judgmental, analytical, and opinionated person. With that being my makeup, a lot of stuff tends to "bother" me. I am rarely bothered to the point of feeling confrontation or humiliation are necessary in most situations, including the situation up for discussion here. As I think about it, it kind of comes down to pride and me having control issues. My wife calls it my "God Complex." I have an extreme discomfort for folks I relate to doing things that I perceive as an embarrassment. Being that I am a man and I have an idea in mind of what men should act like, if I see a man behaving in some way "below" MY standard, I am bothered. The same is true if I have a family member that is loud and abnoxious (sp?) in public, I'm like "dude, you have the same last name as me, represent better."

As far as the acceptability of someone's behavior, I must accept it whether I like it or not as I have no control over other people. So my acceptance will be there, but it will be accompanied by thoughts of "now that's a damn shame" in my head. So maybe my choice of wording by using unacceptable was not well thought out because whether I like it or not, in most cases with exceptions being close friends and family members, I will quitely accept behaviors I dislike and go about my business only giving those behaviors a passing thought. In the case of friends and family, I may inquire into their behavior and try to persuade them otherwise, but ultimately it's their life and my influence can only be acceptably asserted to a certain extent.

And no, homosexual behavior is not criminal. And in my mind only slightly grosser than heterosexual set that does not utilize the hershey highway.

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2011, 11:16:54 AM »
People tend to think that if a woman is hot, a straight guy will love when she puts the moves on him. Not necessarily true.

This is probably the smartest thing anyone has ever said in this thread. I almost threw up once because one of my friends hugged me without warning. And that wasn't even "putting moves on me".

To be truly fair, everything should be judged on a case by case basis, BUT, since that is too damn meticulous and time consuming, I'll have to side with the steriotype and assert that MOST straight men will absolutely revel in the idea of a beautiful, sexy, sober and in her right mind woman hitting on him; unless of course his wife or girlfriend was around.

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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2011, 11:20:33 AM »
To be truly fair, everything should be judged on a case by case basis, BUT, since that is too damn meticulous and time consuming, I'll have to side with the steriotype and assert that MOST straight men will absolutely revel in the idea of a beautiful, sexy, sober and in her right mind woman hitting on him; unless of course his wife or girlfriend was around.

I'll have to disagree on the basis that it's a stereotype. I have never seen one accurate stereotype. They are usually representations of the things people hear about the most of a certain group of people.
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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2011, 11:29:06 AM »
 Maybe sometimes, TOT, but I still think a man can be sexually harassed.

 On another note, I think that misogyny was the norm for so long that some people have a hard time understanding that women can abuse men, too, just like the situation with my sis and her boyfriend. Even I was guilty of that mindset. My sister's boyfriend would laugh when she would hit him in anger, and I thought he found it funny at first. Then I realized he was just nervous and he looked a bit sad afterward. So I told my sis not to be like our dad, and she doesn't hit her boyfriend anymore.

Luc, thanks for the previous compliment. Us millenials tend to think alike; you and I may be young, but we are certainly not dumb.
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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2011, 11:31:29 AM »
Luc, thanks for the previous compliment. Us millennials tend to think alike; you and I may be young, but we are certainly not dumb.

"Dumb" is subjective, but you're welcome and thanks for your compliment.
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Re: Sometimes, I Just Gotta Vent.........
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2011, 12:30:10 PM »
agreed.  But this is not the same as being "denied the right" as has been claimed.  Is it bad that it's hard for abusees to get help?  Of course.  Is it the fault of some evil plot by feminists?  I don't see it and I do see a culture that ridicules men for needing such things, the culture of calling things "gay" if you don't like it, that is rather fearful of anything that is not "manly", etc.  A lot of my male friends in high school were the intellectuals, daring not to be involved in sports.  I know how they were treated.  They were beat up by the "manly" types.  There was no kitten with a whip making them act "femme".

I don't think it's a plot by feminists. I merely think that it illustrates the disparity that exists on both sides. Domestic Violence against women is considered a great social evil, but if a woman abuses a man, eh, who cares? The double standard is not acceptable.

This can be actually traced to a cultural Continent of Marx. It has so thoroughly seemed into Western culture... even conservatives and Christians unconsciously follow the doctrine. The Dialectic: You are either the Oppressor or the Oppressed...there is no other options in this Meme. In order to have moral legitimacy, you can't be an oppressor...so you need to a member of an oppressed class, which immediately mean "the other" must be an oppressor class.  So you have conservative Christians, a vastly powerful and polemically connected group in the US, supporting things that portray them as being victims of the oppressor "Eviloutionists." And you have Feminists who can't fathom a man being abused, as men...via this meme...are members of the oppressor class and must be demonized as such. You get people who are millionaires talking about the "victimization" at the hands of a "Kleptocracy government."

And to be fair, you also get some men talking about their victimization as a generality...rather than a case by case, arena by arena basis. Because there are definitely some societal advantages to be a man, as well as some major handicaps.





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