Author Topic: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it  (Read 2392 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11142
  • Darwins +294/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Ignoring the definition of religion[1] for a second here, even if atheism was one and even if being a religion did debunk it, that would also debunk every single religion in existence, as they are all religions.

So, if the fact that a religion requires belief in a god doesn't convince you that atheism isn't a religion, don't think that even if you could prove that atheism is a religion[2] (and thereby "debunking" it) is a good argument against it.
 1. A body of myths with the assertion that one or more gods exist.
 2. Id est: Proving that 0=1.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6778
  • Darwins +546/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2011, 07:21:57 AM »
The Parable of the Atheist.

There once was a land in which there were 2 sorts of people: Criminals and Policemen.

The criminals believed that the way to riches was to follow the path of their religion, which taught that crime was good, and to teach others to do this also in the hopes that the others would become criminals also
[1]

The Policemen thought this was wrong. They thought that there was no basis in logic for criminality. The Policemen argued that if everyone robbed everyone else, then no one would be richer and that thus the Criminal was deluded. The Policemen believed that the only way to happiness, and riches was by applying the experience of the wise men and women of the ages and by working to create wealth and a society based upon the good things that had already brought all the people to this point in their civilisation.

One day, a Policeman caught a criminal and, having some sympathy for him, tried to show him the error of his ways.

The Criminal listened but then said, “Ah, you see, your policing  is a religion like mine. You believe just as much in my being wrong as I believe in my being right.”

“No,” said the Policeman, “I and my fellow Policemen hold to no overall philosophy, we think for ourselves. Some Policemen like loud music, some like soft music and some could not care less about music; some like cars, some like fishing, others not. When it comes time to vote, each vote as they see fit and each has their own solution to world problems. Yet Criminals are all alike, they are led by a mysterious being that no one has seen, yet who tells them how to think on each subject. That mysterious being gives explanations of the world that are clearly false but Criminals say they believe the being anyway. And is that adoption of one thought pattern, the Borg, not the sign of a religion? Do you not see that it is the same as fanatics the world over and the basis of the One-Party State?”

The Criminal looked at the Policeman in silence, so the Policeman added, “Can you tell me where there might be evidence supporting Criminality or a basis in logic for criminality?”

And the Criminal thought, and there was confusion in his mind, and he said, “I believe in Criminality anyway because it is easier.” But the Criminal did not look the Policeman in the eyes as he said it.

And the Policeman shook his head in sorrow and took the Criminal to jail. However, the Criminal, now with other Criminals, listened only to them as they reasoned together against the Policemen.


You see the Policeman is concerned about the harm that Criminality does, yet the Criminal is concerned only about being a Criminal.

In this parable, just in case you missed it:
(i)   The Criminal is the Religious person,
(ii)   The Policeman is the atheist,
(iii)   The One-Party State is the Theocracy that the religious must want and
(iv)   Jail is the church.

Atheism is not a religion.
 1. If you think this is far-fetched, then consider the cult of ThuggeeWiki; the followers believed that mankind was created by the millions of droplets of blood that had issued from the body of the demon Raktabija when he was killed by the goddess of death and change, Kali. The Thug believed that they, on the other hand, were holy and created by the droplets of sweat from Kali as she fought with Raktabija. Using this as justification, Thugs set about serving Kali and ridding the Earth of evil by killing (and robbing) all the demons (rich travellers) by strangulation so as to spill no blood.

(This version is disputed and some say that Thugs were simply a criminal secret society but there is little doubt that some Thugs used this an excuse for their murderous excesses.)
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 09:24:10 AM »
Ignoring the definition of religion[1] for a second here, even if atheism was one and even if being a religion did debunk it, that would also debunk every single religion in existence, as they are all religions.

So, if the fact that a religion requires belief in a god doesn't convince you that atheism isn't a religion, don't think that even if you could prove that atheism is a religion[2] (and thereby "debunking" it) is a good argument against it.
 1. A body of myths with the assertion that one or more gods exist.
 2. Id est: Proving that 0=1.

I don't think they are trying to "debunk" it persay. They are trying to have intellectual equivalency, a game of, "We are alike, you and I." With intellectual equivalency...they then claim moral superiority(because theism in general requires a moral code, while atheism does not)...and therefore...tadah...theism is better than atheism in this often seen gambit. Then, they are likely of a religious majority and theism, by default means, THEIR brand of theism. So, by calling atheism a religion, it justifies their particular delusional worldview.

The only time it isn't is from militant agnostics, which are generally a big PITA. I think they have fallen for the above mentioned gambit early in life and haven't figured out the parable of the Flying Spaghetti Monster yet.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12712
  • Darwins +337/-85
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 10:48:15 AM »
Religion does not require a belief in a god, there are many religions out there that do not have gods or a god.  Such as Jainism and Buddhism to start.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11142
  • Darwins +294/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 10:56:41 AM »
I don't think they are trying to "debunk" it persay. They are trying to have intellectual equivalency, a game of, "We are alike, you and I." With intellectual equivalency...they then claim moral superiority (because theism in general requires a moral code, while atheism does not)...and therefore...tadah...theism is better than atheism in this often seen gambit. Then, they are likely of a religious majority and theism, by default means, THEIR brand of theism. So, by calling atheism a religion, it justifies their particular delusional worldview.

So they're claiming that atheism is every bit as ridiculous as their own religion but without the moral code? That sounds like one of those "blasphemy" thingies I've heard so much about.

The only time it isn't is from militant agnostics, which are generally a big PITA. I think they have fallen for the above mentioned gambit early in life and haven't figured out the parable of the Flying Spaghetti Monster yet.

What does "PITA" stand for?

Religion does not require a belief in a god, there are many religions out there that do not have gods or a god.  Such as Jainism and Buddhism to start.

They're better described as "philosophies" rather than religions, IMO. They're ways of acting that some people thought were good that didn't come from any higher beings. They're the same as our own subjective morals.
Also, some denominations of Buddhism worship the Buddha as a deity (one of the Buddhists I've met online claims to do so).
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Death over Life

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 675
  • Darwins +25/-4
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 11:13:10 AM »
They're better described as "philosophies" rather than religions, IMO. They're ways of acting that some people thought were good that didn't come from any higher beings. They're the same as our own subjective morals.
Also, some denominations of Buddhism worship the Buddha as a deity (one of the Buddhists I've met online claims to do so).

Dude, you don't know just how True that is! Pretty much anybody that I discuss with or debate with concerning religion, the intelligent theists (though deluded) always resort to preaching about their beliefs as a philosophy while the majority of theists who believe it is literal, choke on their own religion sort to speak. The fact that the religious can only validly describe their religion in philosophical terms as opposed to what their religion actually says, should tell you alot on how valid religion really is as "truth".

Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2011, 11:52:43 AM »
always resort to preaching about their beliefs as a philosophy while the majority of theists who believe it is literal, choke on their own religion sort to speak. The fact that the religious can only validly describe their religion in philosophical terms as opposed to what their religion actually says, should tell you alot on how valid religion really is as "truth".

Zen Buddhism is not a religion because it involves no belief whatsoever (else, what is a valid definition for religion if there is no belief and no gods and you still think of it as such?).
Other sects contain aspects of religion, particularly Pure-land where all one has to do to achieve nirvana is to chant the name of one of the mythical Buddhas.

Gautama (or whoever actually expounded the ideas 2500 years ago) specifically said: do not listen to anything anyone claims but instead to come and see yourself (ehi passika).  That's why Zen folk will say, when you see Buddha on the road, you must kill him.  (Slightly different than the Jesus/Christianity idiocy!)

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 11:54:52 AM »
What does "PITA" stand for?

pain in the ass
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Death over Life

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 675
  • Darwins +25/-4
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2011, 07:29:16 PM »
always resort to preaching about their beliefs as a philosophy while the majority of theists who believe it is literal, choke on their own religion sort to speak. The fact that the religious can only validly describe their religion in philosophical terms as opposed to what their religion actually says, should tell you alot on how valid religion really is as "truth".

Zen Buddhism is not a religion because it involves no belief whatsoever (else, what is a valid definition for religion if there is no belief and no gods and you still think of it as such?).
Other sects contain aspects of religion, particularly Pure-land where all one has to do to achieve nirvana is to chant the name of one of the mythical Buddhas.

Gautama (or whoever actually expounded the ideas 2500 years ago) specifically said: do not listen to anything anyone claims but instead to come and see yourself (ehi passika).  That's why Zen folk will say, when you see Buddha on the road, you must kill him.  (Slightly different than the Jesus/Christianity idiocy!)

If Zen Buddhism is not a religion, then my quote has nothing to do with Zen Buddhism. It was actually attacking theism if anything. I made a little mention of that in a couple of my sentences actually. You could describe non-god believing religions (Buddhism/LaVeyan Satanism) as philosophies rather than religions, but unlike the religions I was attacking, they don't believe in nor invoke a god which was what I was talking about.

I forgot:

Zen Buddhism is not a religion because it involves no belief whatsoever (else, what is a valid definition for religion if there is no belief and no gods and you still think of it as such?).

Ever since I 1st made my account here with Hguols as a Christian till now, I have never EVER until this post, made any word on Zen Buddhism specifically, so where do you get the idea that I think of Zen Buddhism as a religion? Are you referring to somebody else, or are making a general assumption?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 07:33:08 PM by Death over Life »

Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2011, 07:57:22 PM »
Ever since I 1st made my account here with Hguols as a Christian till now, I have never EVER until this post, made any word on Zen Buddhism specifically, so where do you get the idea that I think of Zen Buddhism as a religion? Are you referring to somebody else, or are making a general assumption?

Sorry for the misunderstanding.  No personal attack intended.

You wrote:
Quote
Pretty much anybody that I discuss with or debate with concerning religion, the intelligent theists (though deluded) always resort to preaching about their beliefs as a philosophy

An assumption that I made concerning the previous statement is that you would believe that person to be wrong and trying to evade a direct, honest discussion by hiding behind a less charged term.

So if you first assume that Buddhism is a theistic religion, and then you have a conversation with a Buddhist about it and that buddist says: "Buddhism is not a religion, its a philosophy", your previous statement could be applied and so you would not believe what they are trying to tell you.

It does seem, from the structure of your statement, that you simply would not believe any adherent of any religion or philosophy if you first thought (incorrectly or correctly) that their religion or philosophy was a religion.

(This does sound like a twisted interpretation of what you wrote in hindsight.  Sorry.  Personal baggage to blame, as I was on the verge of asking the fine folks of this forum if they thought Buddhism is a philosophy or religion.)

I might not be as versed or as smart as some on this forum, but I am a pretty staunch atheist and a Zen Buddhist.

Offline Historicity

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2350
  • Darwins +80/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • (Rama, avatar of Vishnu)
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2011, 08:43:29 PM »
I don't think they are trying to "debunk" it persay.
Per se. 

Latin.

"Per" means "through" and sometimes "by means of".

"Se" means itself.

Offline pingnak

Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2011, 08:57:08 PM »
But a religious person and an atheist are almost as 'alike' as can be!

An atheist doesn't believe in 10,000 religions and religious/spiritual assertions.

A religious person doesn't believe in 9,999 religions and religious/spiritual assertions.

Something ike a 0.01% difference!  99.99% in complete agreement!

Offline pingnak

Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2011, 08:58:29 PM »
And let's not forget that most religious people are so abysmally ignorant of their OWN religion, they may as well be unbelievers.

Offline Death over Life

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 675
  • Darwins +25/-4
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2011, 09:14:33 PM »
Sorry for the misunderstanding.  No personal attack intended.

It’s all good. No need to apologize as it was a misunderstanding. Concerning me, I might have sounded a little harsh, but a great pet peeve of mine I’m learning of is how theists automatically assume and personally know more about the non-believer’s life than the said non-believer, so they tell the non-believers how they came to where they were in life, only to demonize them later.

You are nowhere near like them and I know you are an atheist instead of a theist, but it is a pet peeve of mine never-the-less.

You wrote:
Quote
Pretty much anybody that I discuss with or debate with concerning religion, the intelligent theists (though deluded) always resort to preaching about their beliefs as a philosophy

An assumption that I made concerning the previous statement is that you would believe that person to be wrong and trying to evade a direct, honest discussion by hiding behind a less charged term.

It is a very True statement, but as you said next, the key word here is theist, which is directly implying belief in god. Buddhism really had nothing to do with my intent. I was like I said with Theism, and more specifically on Christianity and Islam where it is supposed to be literal and NOT a philosophy, which shows they do exactly what you have said that I assume they do. Philosophy is the only way the intelligent theist can really argue to an atheist or agnostic, and it is amusing to say the least, due to how it is supposed to be history, evidence, and facts. We don’t take WWII holocaust believing as a philosophy, so if Christianity or Islam is supposed to be True, why do they argue as a philosophy to validate it? That was my mockery sort to speak.

So if you first assume that Buddhism is a theistic religion, and then you have a conversation with a Buddhist about it and that buddist says: "Buddhism is not a religion, its a philosophy", your previous statement could be applied and so you would not believe what they are trying to tell you.

You are correct here. But the problem is assumption indeed, as assuming has gotten me in a lot of trouble in the past. I would only bonafide say Buddhism is theistic if Buddha himself said it, but alas, he was an atheist, and as such, it is philosophy. If somebody were to make Buddhism into religion, that would be the Buddhist, not the Buddhism. I do know exactly what you are saying, but it is only involving believing in a god.

It does seem, from the structure of your statement, that you simply would not believe any adherent of any religion or philosophy if you first thought (incorrectly or correctly) that their religion or philosophy was a religion.

Theistic I would not, as it all boils down to “god-did-it!”. I can see where you are coming from but rest assured I am not. Concerning me atm, I discuss philosophy greatly with my friends and such, and under philosophical terms, I really wish to obtain more info, collect works, and look more into the philosophies of Frederich Nietzsche as I am interested in his’ very nihilistic philosophy. In addition, although I look at LaVeyan Satanism with disgust as a religion (which they like to portray themselves as, although it isn’t since it has no god to worship unless you count yourself as an actual god, which they don’t.) I think Anton LaVey has really hit the nail on the head with the religion symbolism and said a lot of very True things under philosophy.

I do know most take LaVey as a joke since he was a circus act (no joke), but I really wish to grab me a copy of the Satanic Bible and read it because as a philosophy, his “teachings” make a lot of sense when you really look at it.

(This does sound like a twisted interpretation of what you wrote in hindsight.  Sorry.  Personal baggage to blame, as I was on the verge of asking the fine folks of this forum if they thought Buddhism is a philosophy or religion.)

Once again, no need for apologies. Concerning that idea, I actually would recommend making that thread, because it does sound interesting. Since there is no god did it for the Belief, I would recommend saying Buddhism would be more of a philosophy than a religion. Hinduism although I see similarities with Buddhism, is a religion since I can name gods from that religion (Vishnu, Shiva, Krishna).

I might not be as versed or as smart as some on this forum, but I am a pretty staunch atheist and a Zen Buddhist.

Don’t worry, neither am I! :D

We are both indeed atheists, but my other views of life head into the more individualism, agnosticism, nihilism, and elements of Satanism as I make mention of so much. Since leaving Christianity, I really lost a lot of my misanthropy, but misanthropy still envelops within me from time to time, as is pessimism as well.

Offline RaymondKHessel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1914
  • Darwins +73/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Born with insight, and a raised fist.
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2011, 11:29:43 PM »
It's really strange to me that the majority of the time a theist throws out the precious "Atheism is a religion too!" tardism, they hurl it like it's an insult. And almost ALWAYS push the issue in a way that seems like they're trying to get a rise out of me or something.

And I always have to push back and be all "Dude, I'm not pissed that you keep calling it a religion, I'm pissed that I'm wasting my time by having a conversation with somebody too fucking stupid to know what a religion is in the first place."

For serious. Do these mouth-breathers not own a dictionary, or what?

And Darwin being my Jesus and cats like Dawkins my prophet... Evilution and Science! are my dogmas or some s**t like that... You have to stand in AWE sometimes. People gotta have a mind made of laffy-taffy to string this s**t together and then actually think it's a good idea to say it out loud.

For serious. I get embarassed FOR them.  :-\

edit: I'm feeling bad now that I'm so fuzzy on my religion's doctrine though. I'm usually so busy ignoring people when they start up on that stuff, it doesn't register.

Would one of you fuzzy-hearted Christeys watching from the wings be so kind as to clarify who my prophets and wizards are supposed to be EXACTLY, and how evilution and Science! or whatnot plays into it? And anything else you can think of that makes my lack of belief a religion, please. I'm sadly very ignorant of my religions tenants, and now I desperately need a Christian to show me the way.

Purdy please.

This is a genuine request, by the way. I'd really like it spelled out for me, so that I know. I'm sure 70's Santa/Jtpd69 could draw us a chart, it's definitely his kind of arguement and I'm sure he's got every facet of the claim on speed dial.

I'm not picky though. Anybody who can enlighten me, please do so.

I just really want to know.

Oh, and, uh, about that whole retarded/mouth-breather thing... It was, ah, nothing personal. Honest.  :-X

Hmmm... I'm thinking I might need to search through the mailbag to find what I'm looking for lol.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 11:42:28 PM by RaymondKHessel »
Born with insight, and a raised fist.

Offline Death over Life

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 675
  • Darwins +25/-4
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2011, 01:19:57 AM »
That is something else you brought up Raymond that theists love to do!

I announce I am an atheist, and the second I say 1 little sentence quote from Dawkins, they turn around and say Hawkins, Hitchens, and so many others are my "prophets"!

I will admit, one chuckle they gave me was saying Antony Flew was one of the most atheistic people around, and one of the biggest "prophets" of atheism, and tried to use his conversion to Deism to prove that atheism is very weak and has no backbone for valid views.  &)

I never even heard of Antony Flew until I heard that statement, but alas, they should realize Deism is far different than Theism, so it is picking straws out to try making atheism an unbelievable "religion".

Offline gonegolfing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1224
  • Darwins +23/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • God ?...Don't even get me started !
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2011, 09:48:24 AM »
Theist:-- ""Atheism is a religion you you stupid godless moron!!""

Atheist:-- ""Oh it is ? Well, let me ask you then""

"Do atheists believe in dieties?"
"Do atheists believe in scapegoating saviours?"
"Do atheists believe in angels and demons?"
"Do atheists believe in and practice praying to any type of entity?"
"Do atheists believe that the earth is 7000 years old?"
"Do atheists believe we exist from a piece of dust, a clot of blood, or a rib?"
"Do atheists believe in divine floods?"
"Do atheists believe that divinely order stoning, genocide, slavery and rape are OK?"
"Do atheists believe that yelling at walled cities will make them crumble to the ground?"
"Do atheists believe that one man can kill a thousand men with the jaw of a donkey?"
"Do atheists believe that talking animals can exist?"
"Do atheists believe that seas part so that hordes of people can walk through them?"
"Do atheists believe that the sun can be commanded to stand still in the sky?"
"Do atheists believe that children can be cursed and bears will tear them to shreds?"
"Do atheists believe that virgin births have occurred?"
"Do atheists believe the delightful idea that water can be turned into wine?"
"Do atheists believe that hurricanes can be calmed by simply commanding them to?"
"Do atheists believe an individual can walk on water?"
"Do atheists believe that a 3 piece KFC combo meal can feed 5000 people?"
"Do atheists believe that dead people can be commanded to rise from their graves alive?"
"Do atheists believe that one can command demons to go into animals?"
"Do atheists believe in blood sacrifices?"
"Do atheists believe that people rise up into the sky on winged horses or vanish into the clouds?"
"Do atheists go to organized churches?"
"Do atheists give 10% of their income to any deities, churches, or spiritual endeavours?"
"Do atheists have a statement of faith?"
"Do atheists have popes, pastors, megachurches, missionary groups, or door to door proselytizing?"
"Do atheists get religious tax exempt status?"
"Do atheists practice daily rituals and openly show great devotion and servitude to their atheist position?"
"Do atheists burn incense, ring bells, count beads, ash their foreheads, or take communion?"


Atheist:-- "The answer to all of these questions is a resounding NO...So just what is it that makes you state that atheists are religious?"

Theist:-- Ummm....well....because I said they are !!!! >:(



 

 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 09:59:37 AM by gonegolfing »
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2011, 11:24:27 AM »
Theist:-- Ummm....well....because I said they are !!!! >:(

Let's not make strawmen here. Their explanation is a little more descriptive than that. They resort to; "You have a belief without evidence, just like I do. That's faith" as their justification. I have a parable for just that situation.

Yes it is a kind of faith. It is that same kind of faith that I have that my shoes do not fly around my round when I am asleep and no recording devices are present. I'm sure you share that same faith, the faith of NoFlyingShoeswhlesleeping, how's that faith working out for you? Does it require a deep conviction of resolute solemnity, or do you have that faith because the proposition that your shoes fly around when you are asleep is in contradiction to everything observable about reality?

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2056
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2011, 11:58:32 AM »
...Yes it is a kind of faith. It is that same kind of faith that I have that my shoes do not fly around my round when I am asleep...

+1 with a smile for a great analogy.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline RaymondKHessel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1914
  • Darwins +73/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Born with insight, and a raised fist.
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2011, 12:45:41 PM »
That is something else you brought up Raymond that theists love to do!

I announce I am an atheist, and the second I say 1 little sentence quote from Dawkins, they turn around and say Hawkins, Hitchens, and so many others are my "prophets"!

I will admit, one chuckle they gave me was saying Antony Flew was one of the most atheistic people around, and one of the biggest "prophets" of atheism, and tried to use his conversion to Deism to prove that atheism is very weak and has no backbone for valid views.  &)

I never even heard of Antony Flew until I heard that statement, but alas, they should realize Deism is far different than Theism, so it is picking straws out to try making atheism an unbelievable "religion".

Lol... I was going to say, "Who the hell is Antony Flew, and why am I supposed to care what he does or doesn't do?" Glad I'm not the only one!  :)

If we get to start picking one random goober out of 7 billion to make a representative of an entire group of people, does that mean we get to hold up a pedophile priest or a baby-drowning mom as proof that Christianity compels people to murder and/or molest kids?

That would make it a hell of a lot easier to get "In God We Trust" taken off of dollar bills, at the very least.
Born with insight, and a raised fist.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2011, 01:41:33 PM »
Lol... I was going to say, "Who the hell is Antony Flew, and why am I supposed to care what he does or doesn't do?" Glad I'm not the only one!  :)

If we get to start picking one random goober out of 7 billion to make a representative of an entire group of people, does that mean we get to hold up a pedophile priest or a baby-drowning mom as proof that Christianity compels people to murder and/or molest kids?

That would make it a hell of a lot easier to get "In God We Trust" taken off of dollar bills, at the very least.
I never heard of Him until Theist started to crow about him.

Anthony Flew was famous in atheist circles in about 1962(when he actually appeared on TV) seven years before I was born. But until theist started trumpeting him, I had never heard of him.  His most celebrated work on Atheism was published in 1950

So 50 years he is not an authority, to be despised in Theist circles. And more or less, forgotten in Atheist ones.  However, at age 81, he became a Deist...utterly rejecting the Christian notion of God...but all this trumpeting seems to conveniently leave this part out. There is also the odd fact that his work rejecting atheism, is filled with American expressions, despite being a life long resident of the UK.

It is unprovable, but it looks to me for someone in the declining years, forgotten by the public, suddenly gets fame and money, with a book that doesn't even seem to be completely written by him...isn't all that sound of an authority to appeal to.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11142
  • Darwins +294/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2011, 01:46:03 PM »
I announce I am an atheist, and the second I say 1 little sentence quote from Dawkins, they turn around and say Hawkins, Hitchens, and so many others are my "prophets"!

I had never heard of any of them until I joined this website, and even now I don't care for their beliefs (or lack thereof).
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline RaymondKHessel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1914
  • Darwins +73/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Born with insight, and a raised fist.
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2011, 09:20:33 PM »
I announce I am an atheist, and the second I say 1 little sentence quote from Dawkins, they turn around and say Hawkins, Hitchens, and so many others are my "prophets"!

I had never heard of any of them until I joined this website, and even now I don't care for their beliefs (or lack thereof).

Care for? Or care *about*? 'Cos, you know. Being atheists, they really ain't packing much heat in the "belief" department to care for.

I think I'm with you though, if you mean care *about*.

I picked up "The God Delusion" a few years back expecting my mind to be blown with mountains of new stuff I'd never heard of or thought about before, and while it was an entertaining and well-written book, it pretty much just went over stuff I'd already come to on my own over the years just by basic common sense. I think it's definitely better aimed at the people on the fence, 'cos preaching to an atheist choir is a lot like playing wall-ball with the ocean.

There were some great quotes in there though, for sure. But, I dunno. I kinda try not to quote famous atheists when talking to religious types, just because I don't like the idea of a well-read theist thinking I'm just parroting s**t, the way THEY do. For most of them, like 90% of their rhetoric is straight up plagarized from sermons they've heard, T.V. they've watched, or the bible itself. You don't often find a lot of original thought floating around in there.

Which is of course frustrating, because you're not actually debating the person most of the time; you're debating every little bite-sized nugget of propaganda they've picked up over the course of their delusion.

As a result I think they might have a problem understanding that people can just drop a quote from somewhere and not be bound to the rest of a text, like they are with a holy book or a biblical study guide... It just bothers me, the idea that they might think everything I'm saying from that point forward is from some kind of atheist almanac or something lol.

So yeah. I try to stick to my own words, even if they're not always as eloquent as others, and even when dropping a quote from someplace would get the same point across in half the time. I'm inefficient that way I guess.  :P

Anyway, I like Dawkins just fine, don't get me wrong; seems like a likeable guy, and I appreciate anybody out there banging the drum against the dangers of superstition and magical thinking... But he could convert to Christianity or Scientology tomorrow, and I honestly wouldn't give half of a floating f**k.

For the record, floating fucks are fucks that can't even fly. So that should hopefully help illustrate my lack of caring-osity when it comes to what "totem" atheists do with themselves.

I assume because religious icons mean so much to the faithful, they assume that everybody works the same way. "Ooh, they think like I do *AND* they're FAMOUS! Ohhh, teh GLORY! <swoon>"

Yeah. No. Not so much.



« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 09:46:44 PM by RaymondKHessel »
Born with insight, and a raised fist.

Offline kcrady

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1326
  • Darwins +433/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Your Friendly Neighborhood Cephalopod Overlord
    • My blog
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2011, 02:08:41 AM »
"Do atheists believe that a 3 piece KFC combo meal can feed 5000 people?"

Wouldn't that be a Long John Silvers combo meal? ;)

There are three different "modes" of this argument:

Fundy Modes:

"You atheists just worship Darwin and Dawkins and science!" (Fundy Mode A)
"I don't have enough FAITH to be an atheist!  Haha! AhahaHAhaHAHAhahaHAAA!" (Fundy Mode B)

Moderate/Liberal Believer Mode:

"You atheists are just as dogmatic and intolerant as the fundies are!  Meany poopypants!"

Both Fundy Modes seek to establish epistemological parity between their religion and atheism.  Everyone knows that science works as a way of understanding and navigating Reality, and fundamentalists desperately covet the respect it has earned.  They would love, more than anything, to be able to drape the Bible in the mantle of scientific and historical fact.  Much of their argumentation revolves around trying to accomplish this feat.  Genesis isn't a mythic allegory, no: all that stuff really happened!  Likewise for the Gospel stories.  Much of the absurdity of fundamentalism comes from their attempt to interpret the Bible as if it were a scientific or historical textbook, but with an added proviso that it's unchanging and infallible, thus even more loaded with sweet, sweet truthiness than science and history.  Which only compounds their error.

Ultimately however, this project must fail.  When it does, the fundamentalist retreats into "ineffable mystery" and injunctions to have faith.  "For the Cross is foolishness to those that are perishing, so nyah!"  At this point, the fundamentalist feels a need to drag science and reason down to their level, by transforming them into religious dogmas like their own.  This is the other side of the fundamentalist quest for epistemological parity.

Fundy Mode A does this with an emphasis on tribalism.  "You have your prophets, Darwin and Dawkins and Harris and Hitchins, but we have our prophets, Moses and Elijah and Ezekiel and Isaiah and Jesus and Paul!  And ours are in the Bible while yours are just sinful men!"  This approach is taken throughout Ken Ham's Creation "Museum," where "God's Word" (Creationism) is contrasted with "Man's Reason" (science).  First, the claim of epistemological parity: "The evidence is the same, it's how you interpret it that counts.  We interpret it through the lens of a Biblical world view, you interpret it through a godless human world view."  So now we're just two tribes making the evidence say what we want it to.  "But our tribe (the God's Word Tribe) is better than your tribe (the Sinful Human Reason Tribe) because our Great Chief in the Sky created the Universe!  So nyah!"  This links together with another fundamentalist bromide, that their belief isn't a religion, it's a relationship.  Incorporating this, they can classify atheism with all the "other" religions they reject and despise, while elevating their tribe/belief to a lofty, superior position.

Fundy Mode B takes the "thumb-in-your-eye" approach, blissfully ignoring the self-contradiction it entails.  They know atheists do not hold faith as a virtue, but (usually) see it as a vice.  So it can become the basis for a kind of playground accusation: "Youuu haaa-ave faaa-aaith!  HA-HA!"  And cooties too, no doubt.  While using this, they have to be careful to compartmentalize it from their own belief that faith is the greatest of virtues, otherwise they'd have to concede that they think atheists are more virtuous than they are.

The Moderate/Liberal Mode doesn't so much seek epistemological parity, as assume it: "Everyone's belief is as good as anyone else's, and anyone who doesn't think so is a meany poopypants!"  Ignored is the distinction between why the fundamentalists think they're right, and why atheists think they're right.  Fundamentalists think their literalist interpretation of the Bible is the one with all the truthiness, Because SPAGod Said So.  "Scientific/historical/scholarly" protective coloring is adopted when useful, and discarded when it becomes too much bother.  Atheists think they're right because of actual findings of science and history, which reveal a Universe getting along just fine without any Invisible Magic Persons involved.  The Moderate/Liberal establishes playground supremacy by operating in the mode of the moralizing schoolmarm: "You atheists and fundies stop fighting and thinking you're right, and play nice!" 

They're less concerned with epistemological parity (because they can just accept the findings of science, history, and biblical criticism as true, and believe in their religion--nebulously--anyway) than with a position of moral superiority.  They seek to establish a moral parity between fundamentalists and atheists, by tarnishing atheists with the brush of dogma and intolerance (the fundies are already brightly arrayed in those colors).  As champions of open-mindedness and tolerance, they can be "right" because they're the nice people, rather than because their beliefs (whatever they are--just try pinning one down) correspond to Reality.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7301
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2011, 06:27:43 AM »
LOL Ray!  One thing is certain, well, three things are certain now:

death
Taxes
ray will not quote famous atheists, he will always use his own words.


And, now that we all feel a bit less effective because we sometimes do quote the famous guys...well...let's just say we have some catching up to do.

Ha! Joking aside, you make an excellent point, and it is not as effective to simply parrot those who have books.  Using our own words makes us more passionate, and passion oozes from your posts here Ray...like it or not!


Offline Cyberia

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 907
  • Darwins +35/-0
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2011, 01:02:58 AM »
You guys are completely missing their strategy (never underestimate one's enemy) which is to declare atheism (aka: science; aka: evolution) a religion and get it banned from being taught in schools.

It's entirely an anti-evolution strategy.
Soon we will judge angels.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2756
  • Darwins +222/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2011, 01:14:17 AM »
You guys are completely missing their strategy (never underestimate one's enemy) which is to declare atheism (aka: science; aka: evolution) a religion and get it banned from being taught in schools.

It's entirely an anti-evolution strategy.

That would get their own delusions banned as well. They will have a bit of trouble arguing that evolution can only be taught in special religious classes.

In fact, if evolution was taught in religious classes, then the teacher would give it more time than normal, and equip the children with anti-Christian dogma.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline kcrady

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1326
  • Darwins +433/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Your Friendly Neighborhood Cephalopod Overlord
    • My blog
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2011, 01:20:54 AM »
Cyberia has a point, in that this meme has been used that way in the political process.  They don't want to get evolution banned from schools in addition to their religion.  They want to say, "Well, those atheists can get their religion (evolution) taught in schools!  We ought to be able to teach ours too!  Teach The Controversy!"  Once they've achieved that goal, they can move on to, "But ours is True because it's in the Word of God, and we shouldn't be poisoning the minds of our youth with the false religion of atheism!"

OTOH, that strategy hasn't worked well for them.  The new approach seems to be, "cut taxes so much no one can afford public schools anymore, so then private Christian schools and homeschooling can take over."
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2756
  • Darwins +222/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: To theists who think that "proving" that atheism is a religion debunks it
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2011, 01:55:09 AM »
OTOH, that strategy hasn't worked well for them. 

Zackly. There is only a limited pool of people stupid enough to believe in Creationism.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.