Author Topic: Question for Christians..and whoever else  (Read 7054 times)

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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #203 on: November 22, 2011, 06:41:13 PM »
Alzael:
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Quote
1. Because we've now grown so much that we're coming up against certain natural limits. 
2. Because we now have the power to screw things up globally.
So basically all you have is an expanding population...
I wasn't referring only to population - fossil fuels and global warming involve natural limits as well.   

Quote
...and the fact that we have the power to possibly screw things up globally
No. There's the additional fact that there is plenty of evidence that we are screwing things up globally.

So it's not a matter of possibly, but probably.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #204 on: November 22, 2011, 07:27:42 PM »
Let me add that a creator being doesn't necessarily equal the being most people think of when invoking a god concept. For all the evidence we have, a creator could be anything from a god to an advanced alien intelligence that we cant begin to fathom, to a zit infested 8th grade extradimensional science student conducting an experiment in a petri dish. We have no way of knowing.
What a scary thought(kinda)
 

Why does that scare you so?
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #205 on: November 22, 2011, 07:49:18 PM »
Let me add that a creator being doesn't necessarily equal the being most people think of when invoking a god concept. For all the evidence we have, a creator could be anything from a god to an advanced alien intelligence that we cant begin to fathom, to a zit infested 8th grade extradimensional science student conducting an experiment in a petri dish. We have no way of knowing.
What a scary thought(kinda)
 

Why does that scare you so?
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

Because that is the reality, babycakes. :D Life only has the meaning we give to it. Yes, we live, we die, we decompose. Never has been any different. That is why we need to cherish every day and try to live the best way we can. This is the real deal, as they say, not the dress rehearsal.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #206 on: November 22, 2011, 08:15:05 PM »
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

Here's what an internet friend of mine on another atheist site once wrote.

"Here's a way of approaching the universe: You are a tiny speck of insignificant biological material in an immense universe that probably defies your brain's ability of understanding. Yet you are remarkable, in innumerable ways. Every second of every day you are a walking ecosystem of life, housing trillions of microbes that continuously interact with you to keep both you and them alive. Your body is constantly building and rebuilding itself, encoding information on simple strains of molecules at the speed of jet engines, in each and every nucleus-possessing cell in your body. You are a walking, talking, living, breathing orchestra of life, a beautiful display of the potential inherent in our particular universe.

You are the remarkable product of an unbroken, let me say that again, UNBROKEN line of descendants stretching all the way back to the very first interactions of seemingly pointless inanimate molecules. You share a common ancestry with every living thing ever, including the estimated 106 billion humans who have ever lived. You are tied to the trees and the birds and the small phytoplankton that gently ride the crests and dips of the oceans of this world. You are part of the vibrant tapestry of what we refer to as life, a piece of art that stretches back billions upon billions of years. Everything this universe has thrown at you and your ancestors has been roundly defeated - from harsh radiation, to extraterrestrial objects, to volcanic eruptions and more. You are a symbol of utter perseverance, of the sheer will to continue onwards. You are a cry in the dark, the voice of one who will not be quiet.

So now you've realized that there is no inherent meaning to existence. So what? This doesn't mean life has suddenly lost meaning - it means there was no meaning in the first place. So you haven't actually lost anything. Instead, you have gained a wonderful opportunity. Give existence the meaning it is seeking. MAKE a purpose for yourself. Maybe it should be your kids, or maybe it should be giving from the bounty you have (because let us face reality - if you have an internet connection and personal computer, you are in the top 10%, maybe even the top 1%, of humanity). Maybe you should learn a new skill, explore a new facet of creation that you never realized was open to you.

So why do you teach a toddler how to behave? Because maybe that toddler will be the one to find other life, other existence in our so far lonely universe. Or maybe they will be the father, the mother, the close friend, the lover, the supporter of the one who does. Or maybe they will be the person to speak out at just the right moment, the one to stand up and stand out, who will provide the inspiration, or the moment of connection for the person who does. Or maybe that toddler will be the one to protect the life around us from an otherwise inevitable end, from the sucking void of empty existence that we struggle against every second of our being.

Are you just a breeder? Just biology? What an insult to biology! Just?!? I forgive you, because you know not what you say :D You are the product of a few basic particles, a few basic forces, yet you are impossibly complex, impossibly intricate. The sheer unlikeliness of your very existence is staggering, and yet here you are. The title of "breeder" is just a single facet of what you are. You can be a teacher, a leader, a thinker, a cook, a scientist, an artist, a musician, a protector, an enlightener, a champion, a peacemaker, a lover, a friend, a companion, a confidant... the list is a vast as the seemingly infinite complexities of neuron interactions in the collection of molecular structures known as cells in your brain.

And let us not end our poetic license there, for if all that is true, than this is also: There is something after death. The part of you that continues to exist in all life around you will never cease to be, not as long as things from this planet continue to live. You will continue on, interminably, from the beginning of life to its end potentially countless aeons from now, if ever. Maybe through some fluke you will be the Eve for humanity in the future, the one woman every human will trace their ancestry back to. Maybe not. But who can tell what the future holds. Rather than collapse under the imagined weight of nothingness, I posit that you should grasp hold of your life, and take it to heights heretofore unseen. Also - Hugs, love, and imaginary hot cocoa!"

"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #207 on: November 22, 2011, 10:24:23 PM »
Honestly, I have never understood why the thought that we're created makes life more valuable or worth living. Seriously. So we live our lives, we get our reward, but what was the point? Just to get to heaven? I find this life amazing. It's fascinating. I learn something new every day. I don't see why a god is required for us to find value in it.
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Offline wright

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #208 on: November 22, 2011, 10:30:46 PM »
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

Here's what an internet friend of mine on another atheist site once wrote.

<snip>


Alzael, that is wonderful. It's going in my little file of inspirational quotes.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #209 on: November 22, 2011, 10:40:07 PM »
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

That's not the question you should be asking.  Regardless of how it makes you feel about the world... you have to ask yourself what do you value?  Do you value truth?  Or do you value what makes you feel better? 

It takes guts to accept reality for what it is.  Nobody said this was going to be easy.  Atheism may be the harder road, but as far as we know, it's the only one that leads you to the truth. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #210 on: November 22, 2011, 10:41:13 PM »
Honestly, I have never understood why the thought that we're created makes life more valuable or worth living. Seriously. So we live our lives, we get our reward, but what was the point? Just to get to heaven? I find this life amazing. It's fascinating. I learn something new every day. I don't see why a god is required for us to find value in it.

That's because it isn't. I think it removes value. Compare something like the bible, to something like a astronamy or physics textbook. Which one of those books really has the awesome stuff inside?

The bible has plagues, and dragons, and killings, and giants, and water into wine, and parting the seas.

The textbooks has black holes, stars dying and being reborn, pieces of matter so small we can't even see them with our naked eye, the secrets of how to make things fly, knowledge of how the most basic principles of reality function.

And Christianity only has one (supposedly) awesome book.

Nothing religion has ever produced can even come close to being as awesome as science. Best of all, science is real.

Religion and religious people are so depressingly........small.

Alzael, that is wonderful. It's going in my little file of inspirational quotes.

No problem. I drag it out of hiding onto this forum once every now and then. It shows how wrong theists are when they think that logic and reason means you can't see beauty and the (metaphorically) spiritual aspects of existence.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #211 on: November 22, 2011, 10:41:20 PM »
@Alzael

That was awesome.

I think perhaps you, or your friend, should share that lil' tid bit with Capt. Ryan Jean Because he can't seem to find any meaning in his life and the Army is concerned that he might be suicidal.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #212 on: November 22, 2011, 11:49:57 PM »
Riley can use that one as a quote.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #213 on: November 22, 2011, 11:52:50 PM »
I have read and checked out most of the links and have given much thought to most every thing that I have come in contact with on this site. I have learned much. I have been given the opportunity of looking at things that more than likely would have never entered my mind. One thing that still confuses me is the fact that I do not believe in the tooth fairy, but I can't remember the last time I told anyone that they are not being real if they believed in the tooth fairy. Because I know the tooth fairy does not exist.  It never enters my mind to debate the subject. My point being is that on a daily bases the people on this site tries to let people know they do not believe in God and that anybody that does is just not thinking .
To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it?
The same goes for Bigfoot, Santa, ect.
Could someone explain this to me without being offended and telling me how stupid I am to even ask the question. I have followed your rules, I have kept an open mind, and I have tried as hard as I could to keep my bias opinion in check while I have been taking in the facts that I have been given. The only reason I can see for the continued debate that always seem to led to the same conclusion is entertainment. I am not trying to be a smart ass, it is a question that is in my mind and I have , on the most part found very understanding and helpful people on here that can answer a question without attacking the one asking it. However if you feel the need to attack. I can take, as long as you tell me an honest answer to the question. :?


Alzael, That was written with the heart of a poet. I truly enjoyed it. You friend had a very good hold on life. I only wish I had part of their outlook.  :)
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #214 on: November 22, 2011, 11:55:07 PM »
Riley can use that one as a quote.
I would love to use that in my paper and I will give credit where it is due. I turned in my rough draft today. Got a lot of things to change. Damn it. :laugh:
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #215 on: November 23, 2011, 12:09:42 AM »
I have read and checked out most of the links and have given much thought to most every thing that I have come in contact with on this site. I have learned much. I have been given the opportunity of looking at things that more than likely would have never entered my mind. One thing that still confuses me is the fact that I do not believe in the tooth fairy, but I can't remember the last time I told anyone that they are not being real if they believed in the tooth fairy. Because I know the tooth fairy does not exist.  It never enters my mind to debate the subject. My point being is that on a daily bases the people on this site tries to let people know they do not believe in God and that anybody that does is just not thinking .
To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it?
The same goes for Bigfoot, Santa, ect.
Could someone explain this to me without being offended and telling me how stupid I am to even ask the question. I have followed your rules, I have kept an open mind, and I have tried as hard as I could to keep my bias opinion in check while I have been taking in the facts that I have been given. The only reason I can see for the continued debate that always seem to led to the same conclusion is entertainment. I am not trying to be a smart ass, it is a question that is in my mind and I have , on the most part found very understanding and helpful people on here that can answer a question without attacking the one asking it. However if you feel the need to attack. I can take, as long as you tell me an honest answer to the question. :?


Alzael, That was written with the heart of a poet. I truly enjoyed it. You friend had a very good hold on life. I only wish I had part of their outlook.  :)

For me its because no one tries to change my life on the tooth fairy's behalf. Everyone acknowledges that it's a story, so there are no laws based upon it, there are no pushy people at my door about it, and I can live my life without worry about it. In the USA, and in many other countries, religious persons attempt to control the lives of others. Whether it's the obvious, like the attacks on 9/11, or the more subtle person knocking on my door with leaflets, or the law maker who attempts to infiltrate our laws with religious teachings and decisions, religion permeates our lives in ways that I sometimes/often disagree with.

If they'd leave everyone else alone, I'd completely shut up about it.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #216 on: November 23, 2011, 12:25:45 AM »

To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it? =

It's very simple. Because I have to live in a world that is constantly being polluted by the lowest forms of ignorance. In the world that I live in there are people that actually believe that it is perfectly acceptable (even admirable) to adopt a system of thinking that allows them to make up reality as they go along. I have to deal with people who look at the world like frightened children and arrogantly try to make it fit into what they want it to be, rather than trying to come to grips with the truth like grown ups and understand our world for what it is, warts and all. And, to put it simply......no.

I refuse to accept that. You do not get to make up reality as you see fit just because it's not what you want it to be. The way the world is now we have everyone starting to come together and truly connect and accomplish things in a way that is unprecedented in the history of our world, perhaps even our universe. We are at a point when there is so much that we could potentially achieve and more than anything I would like to see it. I would actually like to see what these primitive, ten-fingered, monkey-son fuck-ups can really do when they give themselves the chance.

However we first have a few problems to overcome. The first is our own ignorance and stupidity and at the forefront of this religion. It's an abidcation of reason, it is literally the lowest form of possible thought because it relies on emotional manipulation, bullying, and faith to garner the respect that it can never hope to earn with reason, evidence, and honest discourse. Everything about it has been so obviously designed to posion and cheapen our experience here in life. To keep us worrying, fearful, to silence our will to learn and our creativity, to teach us to only think the way we're told and never question, that our lives are meaningless without it, and to celebrate sadism and death. It is nothing less than the utter destruction and debasement of everything that truly makes us human. Advertising some of the most atrocious ideas ever dreamed of by man while making us ashamed of things that we should be proud of, and proud of things that we should be ashamed of.

Everything that science and reason has given us can be seen just by looking around us. What good has ever come about through faith that could not have come about without it? Exactly my point, religion and faith are nothing. They are as insubstantial as a meringue, and it's that insubstantiality that makes it so incredibly dangerous. Because it can literally mean anything, can be used to advocate anything, and most importantly can never be given a reality check because a mind of faith assumes its own reality.

Think of this, if I were to tell you that saying some words in Latin over a potato chip would turn it into the body of Freddy Mercury, you would think I was nuts. However if I said the same about a crakcer and the body of Christ I would only be a Catholic. Is one actually less crazy than the other?

Religion allows people to believe by the millions what only a loan psychopath could believe on his own.

*whew* Ok, rant over. Just one last thing to say that sums it up.

"To regard a truth as ignorance is the beginning of wisdom. To regard ignorance as truth is the beginning of evil." -some guy I don't know.

"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
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Offline wright

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #217 on: November 23, 2011, 12:53:58 AM »
I have read and checked out most of the links and have given much thought to most every thing that I have come in contact with on this site. I have learned much. I have been given the opportunity of looking at things that more than likely would have never entered my mind. One thing that still confuses me is the fact that I do not believe in the tooth fairy, but I can't remember the last time I told anyone that they are not being real if they believed in the tooth fairy. Because I know the tooth fairy does not exist.  It never enters my mind to debate the subject. My point being is that on a daily bases the people on this site tries to let people know they do not believe in God and that anybody that does is just not thinking .
To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it?
The same goes for Bigfoot, Santa, ect.
Could someone explain this to me without being offended and telling me how stupid I am to even ask the question. I have followed your rules, I have kept an open mind, and I have tried as hard as I could to keep my bias opinion in check while I have been taking in the facts that I have been given. The only reason I can see for the continued debate that always seem to led to the same conclusion is entertainment. I am not trying to be a smart ass, it is a question that is in my mind and I have , on the most part found very understanding and helpful people on here that can answer a question without attacking the one asking it. However if you feel the need to attack. I can take, as long as you tell me an honest answer to the question. :?

I for one don't take offense or think you're being a smart ass, riley. You've shown to my satisfaction (for what that's worth to you) that you're struggling with very important issues honestly, genuinely considering that you might be wrong about what you believe.

And that in part is why I continue to listen and converse here: to reach others like you that are wondering just what atheism is and what it might come to mean for them. Not to lecture but inform, answering sincerely posed questions.

I'm also concerned about the repeated attempts, especially in recent years, to de-secularize my (the USA) society by a minority of religious believers and politicians. I see the secular foundations of the US as fundamental to its success and the well-being of its citizens. While a purely secular society would not be without problems, to instead embrace the sectarian religiosity that some Christians demand would lead to horrible abuses. I come to this site (among others) to keep myself informed on these topics, and discuss my concerns with like-minded people.

Lastly, I come here to learn: about framing convincing arguments, about religion and religious beliefs, among other things. Sure, in the process of all that I'm entertained, but that's just the icing on the cake, as they say.


Quote
Alzael, That was written with the heart of a poet. I truly enjoyed it. You friend had a very good hold on life. I only wish I had part of their outlook.  :)

Again, I think you sell yourself short, riley. You're a husband and a father, yes? If you love your family solely for who they are, it seems to me you do have at least part of that outlook ;)
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #218 on: November 23, 2011, 04:17:27 AM »
To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it?
The same goes for Bigfoot, Santa, ect.
Could someone explain this to me without being offended and telling me how stupid I am to even ask the question. I have followed your rules, I have kept an open mind, and I have tried as hard as I could to keep my bias opinion in check while I have been taking in the facts that I have been given. The only reason I can see for the continued debate that always seem to led to the same conclusion is entertainment.

Believe me, I would FAR rather be able to treat Yahweh and Allah in the same way as the Tooth Fairy.  But ask yourself this...

Do believers in the Tooth Fairy use their beliefs to influence laws?  On, say, marriage?  Abortion?  Stem cell research?
Do believers in the Tooth Fairy insist on their beliefs being taught to the next generation as truth?
Do believers in the Tooth Fairy refuse to accept scientific discoveries and theories because "it doesn't fit with what I believe from the Bog Book of Tooth Fairies"?
Do believers in the Tooth Fairy use their beliefs to threaten or kill those with different beliefs?

Or are you REALLY saying that there is no meterial difference to the world between belief in your god, and belief in the Tooth Fairy?  Because if that IS what you believe, then why are YOU here to defend YOUR belief in your god?  Why don't YOU just shrug and say "it's not important".

Think about what your belief in your god means, about how it affects how you view the world and treat others, about how far you would go if you believed that your god wantd a particular thing done.  Then I think you'll understand why we feel that "belief" is such a dangerous thing.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #219 on: November 23, 2011, 06:22:51 AM »
I asked a simply question about why the people of this site spends so much time denying God. After reading the replies I learned something, it was not that simply of a question. The answers I got back stunned me. I truly do not know how to reply to this. I was in bed and woke up thinking about this. The thoughts that you have on this are plain and insightful, I have not found one way to poke holes in your examples or your concerns about the affect that religion has on the world. The more questions I ask, the more I question my beliefs.  :-\ Thank you again for being honest to an old (sometimes foolish) country boy. As I have said before, folks like you are not what I expected to find on a site such as this. Much respect to you.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #220 on: November 23, 2011, 07:50:11 AM »
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

So, in other words, you find not-X to be such a terrible prospect that you desperately cling to X for no other reason than that you want it to be true?  That's a logical fallacy, although I'm not sure what its formal name is (or whether it has one)... where's Hatter23?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline One Above All

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #221 on: November 23, 2011, 07:55:20 AM »
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

So, in other words, you find not-X to be such a terrible prospect that you desperately cling to X for no other reason than that you want it to be true?  That's a logical fallacy, although I'm not sure what its formal name is (or whether it has one)... where's Hatter23?

Maybe Argumentum ad baculumWiki?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #222 on: November 23, 2011, 07:56:26 AM »
Argumentum ad metum.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Dante

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #223 on: November 23, 2011, 08:05:27 AM »
For the simply reason that if you are right ( and you may be) and there is no God , then I am here because of an accident. Then there is no meaning to life , this is it, I live I die I decompose. How can anyone be satisfied with that?

Another of the members here has the following in his sig line:

"The truth doesn't give a shit about your feelings."

Harsh perhaps, but no less true.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #224 on: November 23, 2011, 09:35:22 AM »
Argumentum ad metum.

Ah, yes, that's it.  Thank you, sir!
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #225 on: November 23, 2011, 09:57:35 AM »
Honestly, I have never understood why the thought that we're created makes life more valuable or worth living. Seriously. So we live our lives, we get our reward, but what was the point? Just to get to heaven? I find this life amazing. It's fascinating. I learn something new every day. I don't see why a god is required for us to find value in it.

I feel the same.  And with how some Chritians claim that it’s their god’s right to do with humanity as it pleases since it supposedly created us, that only makes being a simple creation even more worthless than some result of impersonal physics and chemisty.  I’d rather be that than some demented thing’s toy. 

As I’ve posted elsewhere, I had to euthanize my one cat this week. It was either months on a feeding tube which had a small chance of working or a gentle death. According to many theists and their strawman arguments about atheism,  I could have let him suffer in this universe and declare it didn’t matter since there was no magic sky fairy to praise or punish for doing so.  But I didn’t.  I was the part of the universe that cared to spare my kitty pain and bewilderment on why this was happening to him. That gives my life meaning. And I certainly don’t need some invisible impotent and evidently imaginary being to make me this way. 

I have read and checked out most of the links and have given much thought to most every thing that I have come in contact with on this site. I have learned much. I have been given the opportunity of looking at things that more than likely would have never entered my mind. One thing that still confuses me is the fact that I do not believe in the tooth fairy, but I can't remember the last time I told anyone that they are not being real if they believed in the tooth fairy. Because I know the tooth fairy does not exist.  It never enters my mind to debate the subject. My point being is that on a daily bases the people on this site tries to let people know they do not believe in God and that anybody that does is just not thinking .

And this believe in god harms people repeatedly.  Does the belief in the tooth fairy do this? 

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To me the very fact that I know for sure the tooth fairy does not exist leaves me no reason to explain the fact to anyone else. Because , it don't matter. So why does it matter to you and why do you spend so much time on it?
The same goes for Bigfoot, Santa, ect.
Let me ask you Riley, how do you “know for sure that the tooth fairy doesn’t exist”? 

And again, the harm that religion causes. 
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Could someone explain this to me without being offended and telling me how stupid I am to even ask the question. I have followed your rules, I have kept an open mind, and I have tried as hard as I could to keep my bias opinion in check while I have been taking in the facts that I have been given. The only reason I can see for the continued debate that always seem to led to the same conclusion is entertainment. I am not trying to be a smart ass, it is a question that is in my mind and I have , on the most part found very understanding and helpful people on here that can answer a question without attacking the one asking it. However if you feel the need to attack. I can take, as long as you tell me an honest answer to the question. :?
  I’ll have to tell you that I’m not offended but a little disappointed, Riley.  It’s the reason that I find that religion harms people.  You’ve seen the idiocy that Christians like BS, onesteward, etc have shown and that’s what I fight against, that pure willfully ignorance that is based on intentional lies.  I find that lies are rarely useful and almost always harmful (I do agree with lying if it will save a life, like in the case of the folks hiding the family of Ann Franke from the Nazis).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 10:26:16 AM by velkyn »
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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #226 on: November 23, 2011, 10:16:14 AM »
...As I’ve posted elsewhere, I had to euthanize my one cat this week. It was either months on a feeding tube which had a small chance of working or a gentle death. According to many theists and their strawman arguments about atheism,  I could have let it suffer in this universe and declare it didn’t matter since there was no magic sky fairy to praise or punish for doing so.  But I didn’t.  I was the part of the universe that cared to spare my kitty pain and bewilderment on why this was happening to him. That gives my life meaning. And I certainly don’t need some invisible impotent and evidently imaginary being to make me this way....

I'm so very sorry for your loss.

And this brings up a point that sometimes gets lost in the rhetoric about life and god's will and all that. Compassion and mercy. We show it to our animals, but when it comes to a human life we have to let god decide when to take it? Really? Even when the human is terminal and suffering and wants to die? Quality of life is important. Religion, at least conservative religions, teach us that life at any cost is more important than quality of life. I so completely disagree with this. And no, I'm not advocating that I or anyone else gets to make the decision for everyone. But as an example, Washington state now has a right to die law in place. If one is terminal, with less than 6 months to live, and suffering, you have the right to have assistance in ending your life. Religious folks would disagree with this, and insist that that person suffer for the rest of their life. I can tell you now, as someone who's fought a terrible battle with cancer. If I knew I was terminal, and had to suffer through the crap I went through with no hope for any decent quality of life, I'd have wanted to end it. And if religious persons stood in my way I'd be really, really pissed. I deserve the same consideration that Velkyn's cat does. I deserve the same consideration that I gave my beloved greyhound when he was suffering from osteosarcoma. I deserve quality of life.  Not just the right to breath in and out each day.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline jtk73

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #227 on: November 23, 2011, 11:58:41 AM »
I've come to realize, many Atheists are spineless cowards. Much like myself. I'm sorry to be honest here. This is the love I have to give. Maybe you were a Christian or maybe you thought about being a Christian, yet the farthest you've ever taken it was to the front door of the Church or just one sunday. Or maybe just as far as the KJV you have sitting on your desk. Unfortunately, you'll never know what it means to be a Christian if you set such limits for yourself. To know what it means to be a Christian you have to live it all the way. Go all the way. Give it a year. After all, if it is eternity that you will spend in Heaven, wouldn't it be worth one year of your everyday life?
Good! The christian police are here!! They can inform us who is and is not a TrueChristianTm!!! There are SO many competing opinions but obviously YOU are the authority!

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"Why won't God Heal Amputees?" This completely contradicts God's plan, which he has predestined all of us to receive Jesus Christ as our savior. Why do we need a savior? Because we have sins and our sins will be the death of us. God is Holy so therefore we need to be Holy. That is the point of salvation. So that we can be with our God in Heaven. Yet it has to be taken on the faith that you have in a believer's testimony. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Why is this so important? Imagine: God makes himself visible, begins healing amputees and giving sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf.
Speak for yourself! I don't have sins. I behave like a HUMAN. Why should I be ashamed of that? Who deems certain behaviors as sins and why? Why would a super-powerful entity create lesser beings with the ability to do or conceive of things that offend the super-powerful entity? AND then condemn the lesser beings for those thoughts/activities? Why would a super-powerful entity be offended by anything? Is it so prude that it gets upset if I lust after a woman? If you think that a super-powerful entity (the christian/bible god) could not create lesser beings (humans) without the ability to do things that offend the powerful entity (god), then you are limiting your god's powers to the confines of your imagination. If you want to claim that your god wanted humans to have the ability but wanted them to not use it, then you are making your god petty and pathetic.

Offline BigV

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #228 on: November 23, 2011, 02:23:45 PM »
When I was a Christian, I asked my parents and, of course, my pastor about heaven. Mostly about the people who would end up going to this paradise where there's good food, eternal music, playgrounds with angels ....
....


When I was a fundamentalist, I bought into the idea that Jesus revealed himself to whomever was honestly seeking him.

(just like he revealed himself to me by virtue of me being born into a Christian family and hearing about Jesus since the cradle.... ah.. never mind).

So, if you find a fundamentalist evangelical today, I think that's how they'd respond.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."

This passage implies that salvation was possible for those who lived before Christ since they too probably saw Christ's day.

FYI, i'm not a fundamentalist now so I won't be defending this view if you have a question :-)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #229 on: November 23, 2011, 05:06:23 PM »
I asked a simply question about why the people of this site spends so much time denying God. After reading the replies I learned something, it was not that simply of a question. The answers I got back stunned me. I truly do not know how to reply to this. I was in bed and woke up thinking about this. The thoughts that you have on this are plain and insightful, I have not found one way to poke holes in your examples or your concerns about the affect that religion has on the world. The more questions I ask, the more I question my beliefs.  :-\ Thank you again for being honest to an old (sometimes foolish) country boy. As I have said before, folks like you are not what I expected to find on a site such as this. Much respect to you.

You sound like a stand-up kinda guy, riley. And you know, rationally that there is no Tooth Fairy, Santa, Bigfoot, Batman, Cinderella. Because there is no evidence that any of those exist, right?

But suppose most of the people you meet told you that Santa (or any other fictional character) was real, celebrated Santa's birthday as a national holiday, had meetings every week where they praised Santa for creating the world and all good things in it, even went to war and killed in the name of Santa. You are surrounded by references to how great Santa is, there are Santa-based schools and even colleges, entire sections in bookstores and whole TV networks are devoted to him.

You begin to realize that only a few people, like you, understand that Santa is not real. There is still no evidence that he exists. But when you say that, people get angry. You get into arguments and lose friends over it and your relatives don't want to to come over because you won't pray to Santa before eating. The person you are dating has told you that if you refuse to go to the weekly Santa meetings you can forget about getting married. The kids would have to be raised believing heart and soul in Santa.

Now here is your big question: do you start to believe in Santa or not?

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #230 on: November 23, 2011, 08:29:18 PM »
nogodsforme: Before I answer , how cute is the girl I am marrying and does Santa still give gifts if you don't believe? :laugh: 
I get your point and putting it that way, well it does sound foolish. But it is just not that easy. I guess it is for some , but for me, I just can not walk away from it now. I mean, I can't stop this feeling, Deep inside of me :laugh: :laugh:(Sorry , couldn't help myself, it is playing on the radio, A vain attempt at humor ):D
I do know that I have not lost any friends because of their belief or nonbelief in God. Any way not by my chose.I have found out that hanging around with people that hold different beliefs than myself is much more interesting and if I keep my mind open I may even learn a thing or two. And this site , well , it is interesting.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline wright

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #231 on: November 23, 2011, 09:48:32 PM »

I do know that I have not lost any friends because of their belief or nonbelief in God. Any way not by my chose.I have found out that hanging around with people that hold different beliefs than myself is much more interesting and if I keep my mind open I may even learn a thing or two. And this site , well , it is interesting.

I'm glad to hear that you haven't seen your faith as more valuable than friendship, riley. And that you feel comfortable hanging out here.

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Understand that friends come and go, but with a precious few you should hold on. The older you get, the more you need the people who knew you when you were young.
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 09:52:47 PM by wright »
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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