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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #174 on: November 21, 2011, 09:54:19 PM »
I can see the point that you are making, and maybe in some ways the world has got better. And yes the news does seem to focus on the worst of the world.
But what I mean is back in the day.(sounds like something my dad would say) I could go outside , at night, and play , I could walk to school , walk to the store, play in the woods, just me and my friends. at the age of 11. We lived in a large town at the time. I have an 11 year old. Let me tell you , at dark she is in the house , even during the day she is not going to the store or walking to school, or going swimming without and adult with her. So in some ways , yea the world is getting alot worst.

Maybe you're just paranoid :)  The reason you're nervous about letting your daughter outside probably has a lot to do with the fact that you've seen child abductions on the news.  Guess what? There were childhood abductions back in the day as well.  You just didn't see them on the news as much.  We've become paranoid as a society because of the sheer volume of bad stuff we are fed by the media.  You have to take it with a grain of salt.  I can see how you wouldn't think so, but your child would likely be just as fine as you were. 

I just don't think that people's intelligences are keeping up with technology.

Who's fault is that?  Can it be fixed?  What would we need to do to fix it?  Do you really think reliance on an ancient, outdated superstition is the way to go, or could we focus on the education of our children and on our future more as a whole? 

I pray that I am wrong. ;D (come on that is funny)

Coming from you, yes, I can take that as funny.  :)   You're one of the few theists we currently have that even remotely uses your brain.  Keep doing it. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #175 on: November 21, 2011, 10:09:32 PM »
 ;D I still believe in God. But when I read what you put down."Do you really think reliance on an ancient, outdated superstition is the way to go, or could we focus on the education of our children and on our future more as a whole"?  I started laughing so hard, that it put tears in my eyes. I got the point but it really hit me as funny.

Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #176 on: November 21, 2011, 10:19:36 PM »
Is it possible that people perceives their childhoods as being better because they were better?

You're kidding right? People perceive their lives as being better when they were younger because they were kids. When was the last time you saw a kid worrying about a gas crisis? Or the stock exchange? Or racial relations?

Look I was born in the beginning of the eighties. I remember things being all happy and cool as well. I can remember playing outside at night with my friends, staying up all day with my Nintendo. Making popcorn every saturday morning before my grandfather got up to make me pancakes for breakfast.

You know what I don't remember as a kid?

The worldwide economic debt crises.

The beginnings of widespread famine in Ethiopia.

The civil unrest and chaos in the middle east including the Iran-Iraq War, the ongoing Soviet-Afghan War, the 1982 Lebanon War, the Bombing of Libya in 1986, and the First Intifada in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

The Cold War.

The invasion of Grenada.

Tianamen Square.

Mount St. Helens

The US Drought.

The Bhopal Disaster

Chernobyl

The Exxon-Valdez spill

John Lennons assassination

The beginning of the AIDs pandemic

I could go on, but I think I made the point.

Let's see, you said you were 40-something before right? So that would make you born in about the sixties then?

Ok, the sixties.

The Cold War

Vietnam

The Bay of Pigs

The Nigerian Civil War

The Cuban Missile Crisis

JFK assassination

Malcolm X assassination

Martin Luther King assassinated

Black racism

Lynchings

The Great Chilean Earthquake (most powerful ever recorded)

Hurricane Camille (worst ever recorded)

During this period in America the violent crime rate nearly doubled from what it had previously been

Riots

The Manson murders

Again, I could go on.

Keep in mind that I have been mainly focusing on the bad things about these periods. I could also go into a long list of good things that happened during these decades as well.

However my point is, things weren't nearly as simple back then as you think you remember them to be. Ask your own child in nine more years how much he/she remembers about his/her childhood and you'll see what I mean.

What would make you think that times are better now than, let us said 30 years ago?

Well for one thing look at racial and social tolerance. Granted it's not perfect yet, but compared to what it was the difference is frankly amazing. I realize you said that you're white, but I'm black and trust me, there's been quite a difference in the course of my lifetime. Especially in regards to when I've travelled to/lived in America (I'm Canadian so race has been a relatively minor problem for most of my time that I've lived at home).

Not just racism but other groups such as gays have also made improvements, as well as womens rights.

We've taken much greater steps towards dealing with issues like poverty and world hunger. Not even just in the world but in our own countries as well.

We've made huge leaps in medical advancements to treat the sick, provided technology to replace limbs for amputees (something even god has failed to do). Our standard of living has increased, and so has our concern for other humans. We show far more concern and tolerance for other people who were different from us than we ever did back in the 80's, 70's, 60's. Religion is in decline.

Like I said, I'm a pessimist and a cynic, but here's the thing. While I am the first to admit that the human race is a massive collection of dicks and fuck-ups..........we never stop trying. Humans as a species never stop trying to make something good of our species; even if we occasionally can't figure out how. I think that it's that quality, if anything else, that makes us infinitely superior to any god.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 10:21:19 PM by Alzael »
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Offline zerwwgha

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #177 on: November 21, 2011, 10:32:35 PM »


All too often, Atheists often cite witty sources and show the illogic of having faith in a God who is not visible. Yet Christians persist to believe, through good times and, to the dismay of Atheists, bad times. A Christian might experience a terrible tragedy and through it all, continue to pray and seek God. Praising God. And an Atheist just stares and wonders why. As a myriad of logical sentences tumble from the bucket in their brains - so many ideas that Christians don't perceive, nor do they want to believe, for to do so, in the Christian mind would be to betray their God. Why? What's behind the phenomenon of this amazing and, albeit, miraculous power of Jesus Christ that even baffles the most intelligent super minds in the world.

When I was an Atheist I realized that I felt somehow, the world was quite limited in it's scope. All there was to do was to get an education, a job, a wife and live. No frills, no thrills. It almost seemed as if it were life in a hamster wheel. The thoughts of having a life less ordinary began to cross my mind. As the ordinary seemed strongly unappealing.

I believed the life of a Christian was the epitome of ordinary. So I denied myself the cross and chose a life filled with excitement and what I perceived pleasure. It was obvious that it would only end to a premature death. I needed to get out of it.

I went to Church one sunday and was saved. The elation I felt could only be described as spiritual. I began to search the scriptures deeply. For a long time I lived my life in the fashion of a thrill seeker. That feeling I felt was a very thrilling experience and I guess for that one feeling is the reason why I kept searching God. Yet, for several months he was silent and not speaking to me. I began to wonder why there was just one time when God "spoke" to me and then never again.

I realized that there was no growth occurring in the Church that I was in at the time. I then tried attending one of the more popular churches (a church  membership in the 400's) and I was nervous. I never have been so close to so many strangers in my life. I wanted to just walk out of the Church. And I did. I stayed away for a long time. Nearly three years. I believed it was because they weren't being nice to me for a reason. Maybe they were biased to me for the kind of person I was. I felt rejected.

So I stayed away and as time went by, I kept thinking about the reality of God. How just one time he revealed himself to me and then never again. I began to search through the scriptures again, trying to obtain a private relationship with God. This was a step in the right direction. Yet I need a church that I could call my own. I then went back to that one Church.

When I returned, my point of view was to be strong "on the inside", not to cower at the sight of so many strangers, but try to maintain self-respect and keep myself from caving in. Still, after I church, I left it feeling the same way I felt three years prior. Rejected because no one even noticed me. Yet, I didn't let that deter me. I decided that I was going to keep returning to that Church, perhaps just take a seat in the back but I would keep returning.

Because of this attitude however, I was greeted on my third visit from the pastor of the Church, and a couple other members of the Church. I felt I learned a lesson - not in politics or how to deal with people but in faith. This was one major step in my faith to being a Christian. First is learning to be strong in God. Second is to be strong around other Christians - essentially going to Church regularly confirms you are a Christian in the eyes of other believers. Lastly, you have to prove you have faith.

I've come to realize, many Atheists are spineless cowards. Much like myself. I'm sorry to be honest here. This is the love I have to give. Maybe you were a Christian or maybe you thought about being a Christian, yet the farthest you've ever taken it was to the front door of the Church or just one sunday. Or maybe just as far as the KJV you have sitting on your desk. Unfortunately, you'll never know what it means to be a Christian if you set such limits for yourself. To know what it means to be a Christian you have to live it all the way. Go all the way. Give it a year. After all, if it is eternity that you will spend in Heaven, wouldn't it be worth one year of your everyday life?

"Why won't God Heal Amputees?" This completely contradicts God's plan, which he has predestined all of us to receive Jesus Christ as our savior. Why do we need a savior? Because we have sins and our sins will be the death of us. God is Holy so therefore we need to be Holy. That is the point of salvation. So that we can be with our God in Heaven. Yet it has to be taken on the faith that you have in a believer's testimony. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Why is this so important? Imagine: God makes himself visible, begins healing amputees and giving sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf.

1) This would defeat the purpose of God's plan of salvation through faith. 2) This would make God the permanent servant of man (whatever ails you, just bring it to God and he'll fix it). 3) The purpose of Heaven and Hell is trivialized as God makes Earth his Heaven.

That's not God's plan, however. A sympathist might say, "Everyone should be free, regardless of the cost they pay." Yet, it's just a complaint against God's will and plan. The saying goes, "God looks at man's plans and laughs." And who is man to raise complaints against God who is all powerful and all knowing? If I were the author of this website, I would take it down. I would endure being a Christian for a year to be sure God is really not there rather than to spend all eternity in hell for the words that blasphemed God on here. That's why as an Atheist, I didn't want to take the risk of their not being a God. I wanted to be absolutely sure before I started a crusade. A year is not long at all considering most people live for 80 on average. After all, there are a billion Christians in the world (all the sects combined, another billion for all of the catholics in the world). And I would urge every Atheist who comes here to receive edification to do the same, for it's better to spend just 1 year as a Christian than to spend all eternity in the bowels of hell for blaspheming God with your words alone. And every Christian you made fun of too.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #178 on: November 21, 2011, 10:38:01 PM »

*snipped for brevity*


zerwwgha, my use of green indicates that I am speaking to you as a mod.

This is a discussion forum, not a soapbox. Preaching is against the rules that you agreed to when you signed onto this forum.

If you have anything to say that is germaine to the current discussion, please feel free to contribute. Otherwise, please don't.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #179 on: November 21, 2011, 11:49:23 PM »
All too often, Atheists often cite witty sources and show the illogic of having faith in a God who is not visible.
I think we're on track there.

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So I denied myself the cross and chose a life filled with excitement and what I perceived pleasure. It was obvious that it would only end to a premature death. I needed to get out of it.
I went to Church one sunday and was saved. The elation I felt could only be described as spiritual.
I began to search the scriptures deeply. For a long time I lived my life in the fashion of a thrill seeker.
Yes, when someone is an ex-atheist I've noticed a frequent pattern that they almost always convert for emotional reasons.  I once read the testimony of a guy who worked hard until he saw American Indian spirits.  His American Indian girlfriend was going to dump him otherwise.  So then he believed. 

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I've come to realize, many Atheists are spineless cowards.
Please explain.

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Maybe you were a Christian or maybe you thought about being a Christian, yet the farthest you've ever taken it was to the front door of the Church or just one sunday. Or maybe just as far as the KJV you have sitting on your desk. Unfortunately, you'll never know what it means to be a Christian if you set such limits for yourself.
Still waiting for an explanation.  Yes, I know something about the KJV.  And the Illiad and the Odyssey.  I like the Illiad better than the Old Testament.  The author of the Illiad has doubts about war and genocide and shows the human face of the enemy.  There's none of that in the OT.

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"Why won't God Heal Amputees?" This completely contradicts God's plan, which he has predestined all of us to receive Jesus Christ as our savior.
That's a real *facepalm* of a non-sequitur.

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1) This would defeat the purpose of God's plan of salvation through faith. 2) This would make God the permanent servant of man (whatever ails you, just bring it to God and he'll fix it). 3) The purpose of Heaven and Hell is trivialized as God makes Earth his Heaven.
As we've often pointed out, you are saying that the world looks exactly as it would if God didn't exist.

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That's not God's plan, however. A sympathist might say, "Everyone should be free, regardless of the cost they pay." Yet, it's just a complaint against God's will and plan.
More non-sequitur.  BTW, neither my spell checker nor I have ever seen the word "sympathist" before nor can I figure it out from the context you give.

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If I were the author of this website, I would take it down. I would endure being a Christian for a year to be sure God is really not there rather than to spend all eternity in hell for the words that blasphemed God on here.
How about you endure being a Buddhist for a year? 

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As a myriad of logical sentences tumble from the bucket in their brains - so many ideas that Christians don't perceive, nor do they want to believe, for to do so, in the Christian mind would be to betray their God.
Or become a Moslem for a year?  All you have to do is guard your thoughts against the Koran being a pastiche and Mohammed a self serving phony.

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I would endure being a Christian for a year to be sure God is really not there rather than to spend all eternity in hell for the words that blasphemed God on here.
Pascal's Wager.  I am not surprised you brought it up.  I'll let someone else explain its fallacies to you.

I think I can sum up here that Christianity is your drugless high. 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 11:55:09 PM by Historicity »

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #180 on: November 22, 2011, 08:40:25 AM »


All too often, Atheists often cite witty sources and show the illogic of having faith in a God who is not visible. Yet Christians persist to believe, through good times and, to the dismay of Atheists, bad times. A Christian might experience a terrible tragedy and through it all, continue to pray and seek God. Praising God. And an Atheist just stares and wonders why. As a myriad of logical sentences tumble from the bucket in their brains - so many ideas that Christians don't perceive, nor do they want to believe, for to do so, in the Christian mind would be to betray their God. Why? What's behind the phenomenon of this amazing and, albeit, miraculous power of Jesus Christ that even baffles the most intelligent super minds in the world.

Stop. First of "all too often"???? What you mean too often for people who are comfortable in their delusion, such as yourself, to be pointed out how silly their delusion is.  BTW, the power to self delude doesn't really baffle at all. People are weak, want to think they are special, that their morality is objective morality, and don't like to face up to the fact that they will die.  Not baffling at all.



When I was an Atheist I realized that I felt somehow, the world was quite limited in it's scope. All there was to do was to get an education, a job, a wife and live. No frills, no thrills. It almost seemed as if it were life in a hamster wheel. The thoughts of having a life less ordinary began to cross my mind. As the ordinary seemed strongly unappealing.

I believed the life of a Christian was the epitome of ordinary. So I denied myself the cross and chose a life filled with excitement and what I perceived pleasure. It was obvious that it would only end to a premature death. I needed to get out of it.

I notice that evidence, logic, and reason are conspicuously absent in this tale. It is just one big emotional plea. You wanted something more...and poof you suddenly have an invisible intangible buddy....wow pardon me if that isn't remotely convincing.


 eternity that you will spend in Heaven, wouldn't it be worth one year of your everyday life

Pascal's Wager? See my sig on my opinion on that subject


"Why won't God Heal Amputees?" This completely contradicts God's plan, which he has predestined all of us to receive Jesus Christ as our savior. Why do we need a savior? Because we have sins and our sins will be the death of us. God is Holy so therefore we need to be Holy. That is the point of salvation. So that we can be with our God in Heaven. Yet it has to be taken on the faith that you have in a believer's testimony. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Why is this so important? Imagine: God makes himself visible, begins healing amputees and giving sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf.


Yeah I could see suffering be lessened in the world. But this is an excuse for the invisible. So if being invisible is SOOOOO important, why do the miracle show up time and time in the Bible? And just like all other Holy Text, these miracle just stop happening when people can fact check...but they still show up in remote corners of the world just exactly where there are no measuring or recording instruments. You truly are naive.


1 for it's better to spend just 1 year as a Christian than to spend all eternity in the bowels of hell for blaspheming God with your words alone. And every Christian you made fun of too.

Pascal's wager again. An Appeal to negative consequences...and you combined it with an appeal to pity.

Try my challenge, it doesn't require a year:


(1)Define God. Do not use weasel words or circular definitions.
(2)Prove that that definition is not a logical paradox
(3)Show proof that differs from the other ten thousand dieties man
has worshipped, again without committing a logical error

Until you do those three things....your worship of that deity is the intellectual equivalent a gibbering tribal primitive bowing before their god, UGABUGA.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #181 on: November 22, 2011, 11:03:01 AM »
All too often, Atheists often cite witty sources and show the illogic of having faith in a God who is not visible. Yet Christians persist to believe, through good times and, to the dismay of Atheists, bad times.
Not to my dismay, to my bemusement.  It also amuses me that yet one more Christian must resort to lies to support their claims.  Not nice at all. 
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A Christian might experience a terrible tragedy and through it all, continue to pray and seek God. Praising God.
yes and to what end?  Nothing changes with prayer or praise.
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And an Atheist just stares and wonders why.
No, not this one.  More again, more false witnessing from a Christian. 
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As a myriad of logical sentences tumble from the bucket in their brains - so many ideas that Christians don't perceive, nor do they want to believe, for to do so, in the Christian mind would be to betray their God. Why? What's behind the phenomenon of this amazing and, albeit, miraculous power of Jesus Christ that even baffles the most intelligent super minds in the world.
Nothing baffling about it since we see no evidence of any “miraculous power”, only lying Christians, which does make one wonder just how faithful they really are.
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When I was an Atheist I realized that I felt somehow, the world was quite limited in it's scope. All there was to do was to get an education, a job, a wife and live. No frills, no thrills. It almost seemed as if it were life in a hamster wheel. The thoughts of having a life less ordinary began to cross my mind. As the ordinary seemed strongly unappealing.
and I suspect a lie here too but perhaps you really were an atheist.  What evidence convinced you to convert?  I do see here where the usual desire of the Christian to be a special snowflake comes in. 
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I believed the life of a Christian was the epitome of ordinary. So I denied myself the cross and chose a life filled with excitement and what I perceived pleasure. It was obvious that it would only end to a premature death. I needed to get out of it.
And the usual claim of how bad the supposed “atheist” was, of course with no proof. But golly, it does make a great story doesn’t it?  Unfortunately, it rings false.
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I went to Church one sunday and was saved. The elation I felt could only be described as spiritual. I began to search the scriptures deeply. For a long time I lived my life in the fashion of a thrill seeker. That feeling I felt was a very thrilling experience and Cut for length….
Lastly, you have to prove you have faith.
 
Huh, I was saved too.  And I read the bible too, as a believer and as not.  I prayed and prayed as I was losing my faith to this god and got nothing.  And funny again how we see just how special the Christian needs to feel.  It is amusing to see one more version of how one becomes a TrueChristian.  Seems like Christians just can’t seem to agree on that. 
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I've come to realize, many Atheists are spineless cowards. Much like myself. I'm sorry to be honest here. This is the love I have to give.
Nope, not love at all, just a cheap desperation to make your self feel better by calling people names.  Typical TrueChristian action, though. You might be a coward, but don’t call anyone else that unless you have evidence. 

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Maybe you were a Christian or maybe you thought about being a Christian, yet the farthest you've ever taken it was to the front door of the Church or just one sunday. Or maybe just as far as the KJV you have sitting on your desk. Unfortunately, you'll never know what it means to be a Christian if you set such limits for yourself. To know what it means to be a Christian you have to live it all the way. Go all the way. Give it a year. After all, if it is eternity that you will spend in Heaven, wouldn't it be worth one year of your everyday life?
and more pathetic TrueChristian assumptions meant to make the poster feel superior.  And dear, I gave it many many years.  But I’m sure you’ll just try to claim that I wasn’t doing it “right”.  Funny how all Christians say that and all of their methods fail.
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"Why won't God Heal Amputees?" This completely contradicts God's plan, which he has predestined all of us to receive Jesus Christ as our savior. Why do we need a savior? Because we have sins and our sins will be the death of us. God is Holy so therefore we need to be Holy. That is the point of salvation. So that we can be with our God in Heaven. Yet it has to be taken on the faith that you have in a believer's testimony. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Why is this so important? Imagine: God makes himself visible, begins healing amputees and giving sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf. 1) This would defeat the purpose of God's plan of salvation through faith. 2) This would make God the permanent servant of man (whatever ails you, just bring it to God and he'll fix it). 3) The purpose of Heaven and Hell is trivialized as God makes Earth his Heaven. 
And here we have the claim by the TrueChristian that they know God’s Plan.  Again, we see how Christians can’t agree on much at all.  This one wants to claim predestination.  Hilarios that this TrueChristian forgets that his god did heal people supposedly back in the bible. Why didn’t that foul up this supposed salvation through faith?  Oooopsie, forgot that didn’t you?
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That's not God's plan, however. A sympathist might say, "Everyone should be free, regardless of the cost they pay." Yet, it's just a complaint against God's will and plan. The saying goes, "God looks at man's plans and laughs."
And funny how this god can’t negate man’s plans at all.  God was so scared of humanity and their tower in Babel that he had to make people speak different languages (forgetting that they already did in the chapter before this story) but now we can communicate with each other build amazing things and poor little God, can’t do a thing about it.
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And who is man to raise complaints against God who is all powerful and all knowing?
Yay, one more Christian who claims might equals right.
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If I were the author of this website, I would take it down. I would endure being a Christian for a year to be sure God is really not there rather than to spend all eternity in hell for the words that blasphemed God on here. That's why as an Atheist, I didn't want to take the risk of their not being a God. I wanted to be absolutely sure before I started a crusade. A year is not long at all considering most people live for 80 on average. After all, there are a billion Christians in the world (all the sects combined, another billion for all of the catholics in the world). And I would urge every Atheist who comes here to receive edification to do the same, for it's better to spend just 1 year as a Christian than to spend all eternity in the bowels of hell for blaspheming God with your words alone. And every Christian you made fun of too.
and again more ridiculous claims.  So, your god is so ignorant that it would accept someone who just was believing in it on the odds that they might win Pascal’s wager? I wonder, can you turn your belief on an off again like a light?  Can you believe in fairies one day and not the next?  And just what does it mean to be a Christian for a year?  Obeying all of the laws of this god (way more than 10 incidentally)?  Living with other Christians sharing your possessions like in Acts?  You see, Zer, since none of you can get your story straight, why should anyone care what you think? It’s just more versions of more myths, all of which haveno evidence to show that they are real in anyway.

 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #182 on: November 22, 2011, 01:14:49 PM »
But what I mean is back in the day.(sounds like something my dad would say) I could go outside , at night, and play , I could walk to school , walk to the store, play in the woods, just me and my friends. at the age of 11.

You still can.  The problem is 24 hour news channels have an unceasing need for "reportage".  So every lost kid - what used to be strictly local news - has been elevated to national news status.  Can you imagine Walter Cronkite reporting on that stupid JonBenet Ramsey?  It is not that the world has become more dangerous.  We are just barraged by hours of coverage of every far flung incident.  As a result, parents have become paranoid freaks.  I think a little danger does kids some good anyway.  It weeds out the stupidest ones and makes the smart ones a little more savvy.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #183 on: November 22, 2011, 03:18:59 PM »
I've come to realize, many Atheists are spineless cowards.

What are we spineless cowardly atheists afraid of? I am not afraid of any supernatural beings. I am not afraid of hell. I am not even that afraid of dying. I am afraid of cockroaches because they are horrible--maybe that makes me a spineless coward. But at least cockroaches are real.

BTW
I, like many of the people here, already spent that year as a praying, practicing, believing Christian. Many years in fact. Somehow the miracle did not take. Either your god is not powerful enough to convince us, or he is not interested enough to bother saving us. Or maybe there is no god, which would explain everything.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #184 on: November 22, 2011, 03:44:26 PM »
But what I mean is back in the day.(sounds like something my dad would say) I could go outside , at night, and play , I could walk to school , walk to the store, play in the woods, just me and my friends. at the age of 11.

You still can.  The problem is 24 hour news channels have an unceasing need for "reportage".  So every lost kid - what used to be strictly local news - has been elevated to national news status.  Can you imagine Walter Cronkite reporting on that stupid JonBenet Ramsey?  It is not that the world has become more dangerous.  We are just barraged by hours of coverage of every far flung incident.  As a result, parents have become paranoid freaks.  I think a little danger does kids some good anyway. It weeds out the stupidest ones and makes the smart ones a little more savvy.
you crack me up.  ;D
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #185 on: November 22, 2011, 03:56:59 PM »
Can someone please give me a responce to this statement. Thank you.
. If there is a God and if God is all powerful , all knowing, then one must contend that in creating man and placing him in an environment where falling was the likely outcome, then obviously God would have had to have man’s fall as a part of His plan.
still working on school paper. need another's thoughts
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #186 on: November 22, 2011, 04:00:24 PM »
<snip>

If the god of the Bible is assumed to be omnipotent and omniscient, then it is not good. There's just no way. It willingly caused suffering, even though using its omnipotence and omniscience, it could find another way to do whatever it wanted.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #187 on: November 22, 2011, 04:02:35 PM »
Can someone please give me a responce to this statement. Thank you.
. If there is a God and if God is all powerful , all knowing, then one must contend that in creating man and placing him in an environment where falling was the likely outcome, then obviously God would have had to have man’s fall as a part of His plan.
still working on school paper. need another's thoughts

It would be accurate to say that falling was the only outcome. Also god could not have had a "plan" per se.

Omniscience rules out any possibility of free will. If it is possible for a being to be all-knowing then everything is predetermined and can happen in no other way.  So did not plan to put man there to fall. It was the only possible outcome.
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #188 on: November 22, 2011, 04:05:12 PM »
<snip>

If the god of the Bible is assumed to be omnipotent and omniscient, then it is not good. There's just no way. It willingly caused suffering, even though using its omnipotence and omniscience, it could find another way to do whatever it wanted.
So, would you say that would be one of the reasons that you do not believe in a Creator? I am trying to get a quote for my paper and I really am trying not to be overly bias. So , you folks came to mind. Hope you are OK with this. :-\  ,
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline One Above All

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #189 on: November 22, 2011, 04:07:17 PM »
So, would you say that would be one of the reasons that you do not believe in a Creator?

I do not discount the possibility of a creator, although I don't believe in one, but I discount the possibility of a god by my definition, simply because it's logically inconsistent with reality and itself.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #190 on: November 22, 2011, 04:16:00 PM »
That is an interesting thought. You concede to the fact of the possibility of a Creator. But you discount the possibility of a God by your definition. So is it safe to say that everyone has their own definition of God. (Believer and nonbelievers) and That is why putting  a consistent definition of God is not possible? Or am I missing the whole point? :?
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #191 on: November 22, 2011, 04:21:58 PM »
That is an interesting thought. You concede to the fact of the possibility of a Creator. But you discount the possibility of a God by your definition. So is it safe to say that everyone has their own definition of God. (Believer and nonbelievers) and That is why putting  a consistent definition of God is not possible? Or am I missing the whole point? :?

Believing in a creator and believing in the God of the bible are 2 VERY different things.  What Lucifer said is not a reason to disbelieve in a creator; it's a reason to disbelieve in the God of the bible.  And it's just one among hundreds of reasons. 

The difference is in the details.  The more specific you get with any god myth, the less and less likely it is to be true.  Why?  Because details can be analyzed, scrutinized, tested and verified.  The more vague the deity, the harder it is to get backed into a corner on the details.  A creator gives no details.  The God of the bible has characteristics that can be analyzed... and that's why it fails horribly.  Lucifer was correct in saying the God of the bible could not possibly be good if He is omniscient and omnipotent.  Not by any standard meaningful to us anyway.  There's too much awful stuff in the world. 



Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #192 on: November 22, 2011, 04:28:10 PM »
Thank you for your thoughts. I understand , at least more than I did. And that never hurts.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline One Above All

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #193 on: November 22, 2011, 04:28:28 PM »
That is an interesting thought. You concede to the fact of the possibility of a Creator.

A creator. Notice the lowercase "C". It's called "grammar". Creator is not a proper noun, so unless it's the first word in a sentence, it's not capitalized.

But you discount the possibility of a God by your definition.

Of course. My definition is logically inconsistent; it's impossible for a being to have all those properties.

So is it safe to say that everyone has their own definition of God. (Believer and nonbelievers)

No. Ignostics don't care, so they might not even bother to define it.

and That is why putting  a consistent definition of God is not possible?

It most certainly is. Pantheists and deists have done it.

Or am I missing the whole point? :?

There was no point to my post other than expressing my own views. You'd have to ask hundreds or even thousands of people to be able to claim that you've "done your homework", so to speak.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Dante

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #194 on: November 22, 2011, 04:33:47 PM »
Let me add that a creator being doesn't necessarily equal the being most people think of when invoking a god concept. For all the evidence we have, a creator could be anything from a god to an advanced alien intelligence that we cant begin to fathom, to a zit infested 8th grade extradimensional science student conducting an experiment in a petri dish. We have no way of knowing.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #195 on: November 22, 2011, 04:38:37 PM »
Let me add that a creator being doesn't necessarily equal the being most people think of when invoking a god concept. For all the evidence we have, a creator could be anything from a god to an advanced alien intelligence that we cant begin to fathom, to a zit infested 8th grade extradimensional science student conducting an experiment in a petri dish. We have no way of knowing.
No I guess we really don't. What a scary thought(kinda)
 Lucifer; I think I am starting to get a better understanding of not believing.
thank you all for your input. I am off to class.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline Dante

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #196 on: November 22, 2011, 04:42:25 PM »
Let me add that a creator being doesn't necessarily equal the being most people think of when invoking a god concept. For all the evidence we have, a creator could be anything from a god to an advanced alien intelligence that we cant begin to fathom, to a zit infested 8th grade extradimensional science student conducting an experiment in a petri dish. We have no way of knowing.
What a scary thought(kinda)
 

Why does that scare you so?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #197 on: November 22, 2011, 04:45:58 PM »
<snip>

OK, here's the short/long version:
I do not believe in any gods that belong to any religions and/or denominations of those religions because they are not worthy of worship. They are either evil or don't meet my qualifiers for a god.
I do not believe in a deist/pantheist god because there is simply no evidence and those types of "gods" aren't testable; therefore it is irrelevant to discuss them.
I do not believe in my definition of a god because it is logically inconsistent.

However, even if I am wrong about all that, a god worthy of worship (by my definition) will judge people based on their actions rather than their beliefs.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #198 on: November 22, 2011, 04:50:04 PM »
and That is why putting  a consistent definition of God is not possible?


You can certainly put together a consistent definition of a god. But then you would have to prove that definition.

The problem is that theists want god to have all sorts of traits that don't mesh together. They can't prove god so everytime a question comes up that shows they're wrong they give god another additional trait to explain away why they can't find evidence for the first one. And so on and so forth.

For example they want a god that intercedes on behalf of humans. The problem with that we can't detect this being who intercedes.

So they say that god is outside of our reality to cover for this. However this means that it is impossible for him to intercede on our behalf.

You see where the problem comes in?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #199 on: November 22, 2011, 04:59:51 PM »
What they all said. Plus this: if there is any such being as a creator god of the universe, it either has had nothing to do with the universe since, or for some reason wants it to seem as if it has had nothing to do with the universe since. Because that is what the evidence tells us. The universe operates exactly as if there was no interested creator god.

And if such a powerful being existed and it wanted something from us, it would be able to let us know in an unambiguous and foolproof way. It would not send one weirdo hippy to tell some incomprehensible stories to one group of gullible folks in one part of the world and hope that word got out somehow to everyone else.[1]
 1. Krishna. Buddha. Abraham. Moses. Jesus. Muhammed. Joseph Smith. Karl Marx. Mary Baker Eddy.  John Lennon. Louis Farrakhan. Yogi Bagwan Rajneesh. Uhhhh. None of the above.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #200 on: November 22, 2011, 05:05:31 PM »
Alzael:
Quote
Riley, speaking as a perpetual pessimist and cynic, you're being absurd.

Quote
Quote
Economic melt-down in Europe and America. The limits of capitalism. Ecological break-down. Oil production has probably peaked already. Too many billions of people, and a way of life that cannot be sustained.

It's going to end in tears. As kin hell would say, stupid monkeys.
And these are actually worse than the way things were 200 hundred years before how? Not to mention that half of those are problems that can still be avoided.

Please spare me the maudlin gloom and doom. You're being absolutely ridiculous.

Strange kind of pessimist you are, Alzael. Doom and gloom are our kind of thing, y'know?

But I'm not being ridiculous. What is ridiculous is the attitude of most North Americans towards the global problems which confront us, which is basically ostrich-like. Crisis, what crisis?

Unfortunately for the rest of us, this particular ostrich is the biggest, fattest, greediest and most powerful ostrich in the world. 

Quote
And these are actually worse than the way things were 200 hundred years before how?
1. Because we've now grown so much that we're coming up against certain natural limits. 
2. Because we now have the power to screw things up globally.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #201 on: November 22, 2011, 05:14:38 PM »

1. Because we've now grown so much that we're coming up against certain natural limits. 
2. Because we now have the power to screw things up globally.

So basically all you have is an expanding population and the fact that we have the power to possibly screw things up globally. And this outweighs all of the other progress that mankind has made over the years.

You're right. Clearly you're being entirely rational.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #202 on: November 22, 2011, 05:31:17 PM »
You have to admit that the scope of global climate change pretty much swamps ( :o) most other human problems. That and the possibility of nuclear annihilation. And of course the zombie apocalypse. Just trying to cheer y'all up.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.