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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #116 on: November 15, 2011, 04:36:15 PM »
1. never start a post with the words, I feel . I believe. or I highly doubt.

If you are looking to express an opinion and not claim fact, how else would you presume to do it?

   and I agree with you that now everyone, more than likely knows what evaporation is.

All educated people know what it is.  People who are not educated probably don't. 

And yes there are many places that does not have enough water. However we are not talking about now. We are talking about then, and I do not have the correct knowledge of what places had plenty of rain fall and what places did not back in the time  or times the Bible was written.

So you are saying that potentially every place on earth had abundant rainfall when the bible was written?  Oook?

I can see where you could discover new information and then go back into a text that has already been written an make the new information seem to fit the old text.
That may have very well been done. However, it to, would be understandable to see how some of the early writings could be taken for knowledge beyond their time.

It is only understandable if you first give in to the notion that God is real.  If you don't, then no, it's not understandable to make that claim.  You see, if there were something in the bible that was irrefutable evidence that they knew things that couldn't possibly be known at that time, then we would be at a loss to argue against it.  It wouldn't be debatable.  We would be forced to toss up our hands and claim you were right.  And there are plenty of ways the biblical authors could have done that.  From saying bacteria caused diseases, to the earth revolves around the sun, to lightning is from hot and cold air patterns... any of that would have been acceptable.  What we get, however, is nothing of the sort. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #117 on: November 16, 2011, 12:24:10 AM »
As for stating an opinion, you are correct. As for educated people knowing about evaporation and uneducated people not knowing about it. OK , that I too agree with. Now , where would you put the level of education of the normal people at the time or times the Bible was first written? Would you consider them educated on uneducated? (comparing them to our standards of education)

 I did not say that that potentially every place on earth had abundant rainfall when the bible was written. I said as plain as possible that I did not have the knowledge to know what the rain fall was like at that time. By your very question, it shows that you misread the statement and so, was confused. As for taking new knowledge and making it match to old text. Why would God need to exist  or not exist. Nostradamus wrote text about knowledge of the future. Or are you once again confused.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #118 on: November 16, 2011, 09:15:47 AM »
As for stating an opinion, you are correct. As for educated people knowing about evaporation and uneducated people not knowing about it. OK , that I too agree with. Now , where would you put the level of education of the normal people at the time or times the Bible was first written? Would you consider them educated on uneducated? (comparing them to our standards of education)

 I did not say that that potentially every place on earth had abundant rainfall when the bible was written. I said as plain as possible that I did not have the knowledge to know what the rain fall was like at that time. By your very question, it shows that you misread the statement and so, was confused. As for taking new knowledge and making it match to old text. Why would God need to exist  or not exist. Nostradamus wrote text about knowledge of the future. Or are you once again confused.

Riley, the writings of Nostradamus’ are no more prophecies than the bible has advanced knowledge of science. They are the same in that humans assign meaning to them *after* they think something “fits”.  Why are neither of these, Nostradamus, or the Bible, clear and easy to understand? Why is there always a question one what is “really” meant and why can’t we actually use prophecy to avoid the supposed events claimed to be written about?

For example, Nostradamus wrote:

Quote
Bestes farouches de faim fluves tranner:
Plus part du camp encontre Hister sera,
En caige de fer le grand fera treisner,
Quand Rin enfant Germain observera.
[Nostradamus, Les Propheties, first printing 1555][1]
or, in English:
Beasts wild with hunger shall cross the rivers:
Most of the fighting shall be close by the Hister [Danube],
It shall result in the great one being dragged in an iron cage,
While the German shall be watching over the infant Rhine. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hister)

I’d suggest reading the article.  Now many people will claim this to be about Adolf Hitler.  It’s like saying the word “real” means the same as the word “reel”.  It’s not true and it’s purely fantasy.  We also have claims of such nonsense as the “Bible Code” which suposedly predicts all sorts of things including the tragedy of 9/11.  A “prophecy” is useless if no one knows about it or can figure it out until *after* the event happened.  I can make Moby Dick sound like prophecy, if I have an event that already happened to match it to. 

The writers of the bible were uneducated, to our and even their time period.  They made claims that are simply nonsense to us and to the educated from the time.  The parts of the bible that theists claim are references to modern science made by these ignorant men are only that because they have decided that that’s what they “really” mean, with no evidence.  They ignore how wrong the bible authors are constantly, having to dig for even the most vague terms to try to convert to modern science and then declaring “look, here it is, God really meant the world to believed as a sphere” or “God really meant to tell them that the stars were balls of fusion and not things that could fall to earth”, ignoring that there are just as many verses that contradict these claims and many many verses that simply are ridiculous.  You seem to want to have it both ways, ignorant men magically writing about modern science, but also too stupid to know that a bat wasn’t a bird.  Thesist seem to want to claim that their god just puts in his two cents when you find it convenient, but then discount this god’s evident ignorance or absence when it happens.. 

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #119 on: November 16, 2011, 12:44:23 PM »
velkyn:  The simply fact that they were uneducated is the very point that I am trying to make.  Now please understand that I am in no way try to state that the bible is and was 100% true. All I am trying to do is to understand how, (and by your own words, and I agree with it) uneducated men , even by their own time standards, would write down the things like , the earth being hung over nothing. How could they know. ,, also : Paths of the sea" Matthew Maury (1806-1873) is considered the father of oceanography. He was bed-ridden during a serious illness and asked his son to read a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression "paths of the sea" in Psalms 8:8. Upon his recovery, Maury took God at his word and went looking for these paths. We are indebted to his discovery of the warm and cold continental currents.(whoever atheismforum) even simply things like;  The Bible stated that the stars cannot be counted: For centuries, scientists and astronomers thought they could count the precise number of stars in the universe. Brahe, for example, said there were 777. Kepler claimed the total was 1,005. Hipparchus said there were 1,022 stars. Ptolemy raised the number to 1,056. Eventually, scientists, including the great Galileo, concluded that the stars could not be numbered, and of all things :The Bible stated that kind words and laughter are good for one's health: In recent years, American newspapers have published various reports that laughter releases chemicals within a person's body that can contribute to one's health. And, that depression and stress can weaken the immune system and contribute to various health problems. But, the Bible knew of the health virtues of laughter roughly 3000 years ago when the Bible's book of Proverbs was recorded:

"Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." (Proverbs 16:24, NIV).

"A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." (Proverbs 17:22, NIV).

all I am doing to questioning the POSSIBILITY that uneducated men may have  had something going on other than just lucking guesses.
 or is it possible that it is just coincidence on top of coincidence on top of coincidence on top of coincidence.
And again, At this point in time I still am not convinced that the bible is word for word true, but some things seem to be pointing to the fact that not all is wrong. As it is with most findings with most theories.


Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #120 on: November 16, 2011, 01:53:50 PM »
velkyn:  The simply fact that they were uneducated is the very point that I am trying to make. 
I know, Riley.  You want to claim that they were uneducated and that it’s amazing that they could “know” modern science. The fact is that they simply didn’t. 

Quote
Now please understand that I am in no way try to state that the bible is and was 100% true.
that’s very good.  However, it has very little that is true e.g. factual, in it.  We have some thing that are simply obvious from observation.  We have some laws that are similar in many human societies, and a few mentions of places and people that are supported by external sources.  But other than that, it’s full of myths and claims that are simply wrong.

Quote
All I am trying to do is to understand how, (and by your own words, and I agree with it) uneducated men , even by their own time standards, would write down the things like , the earth being hung over nothing. How could they know.
They didn’t.  Theists are assuming that this means that these people knew, or god told them that the earth was in space.  It says nothing of the kind.

Quote
job 26: 7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.
We have the bible saying that the skies are something to be spread.  They aren’t.  We have this god somehow “suspending” the earth.  On what?  The earth hangs on nothing nor does it “hang” at all.  Now if we had this god saying that “the sun causes the earth to revolve around it causing the seasons because of the tilt of the earth closer to and further from the sun” that might be viable as something that the ancients didn’t and couldn’t know. But as it is, the bible is wrong in what it claims. 

Quote
also : Paths of the sea" Matthew Maury (1806-1873) is considered the father of oceanography. He was bed-ridden during a serious illness and asked his son to read a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression "paths of the sea" in Psalms 8:8. Upon his recovery, Maury took God at his word and went looking for these paths. We are indebted to his discovery of the warm and cold continental currents.(whoever atheismforum) even simply things like;
And that verse reads
Quote
Psalm 8: 6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands;you put everything under their[g] feet: 7 all flocks and herds, and the animals of the wild, 8 the birds in the sky,  and the fish in the sea,  all that swim the paths of the seas.
This could simply be agrarians who think that fish follow the same paths their sheep do.  Fish also do not always follow ocean current.  Again, theists are putting meaning where is there is none, to come up with yet more desperately desired evidence for their god.   Sailors knew about warm and cold currents in the sea since time immemorial, without the bible in many cultures.  It’s nothing new and is just more human observation.   
Quote
The Bible stated that the stars cannot be counted: For centuries, scientists and astronomers thought they could count the precise number of stars in the universe. Brahe, for example, said there were 777. Kepler claimed the total was 1,005. Hipparchus said there were 1,022 stars. Ptolemy raised the number to 1,056. Eventually, scientists, including the great Galileo, concluded that the stars could not be numbered, and of all things :
And if we had enough time and good enough equipment, it’s likely we could count the stars, at least back to the time where the cosmic “fog” http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/12/8274038-how-the-cosmic-fog-cleared cleared.  Astronomers and cosmologists have been doing lots of work since Galileo. Nothing says he can’t be wrong.  Theists have always tried the “we can’t so Goddidit”, but science has always managed to show them wrong.  They’ve claimed the bible mentions atoms since we can’ t see them. Unforunately for them, we now can.  Same with stars, same with grains of sand on the beach.  Time is the big problem, to count such things, we’d probably be beyond the entropic death of the universe before we finished. 
Quote
The Bible stated that kind words and laughter are good for one's health: In recent years, American newspapers have published various reports that laughter releases chemicals within a person's body that can contribute to one's health. And, that depression and stress can weaken the immune system and contribute to various health problems. But, the Bible knew of the health virtues of laughter roughly 3000 years ago when the Bible's book of Proverbs was recorded: "Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." (Proverbs 16:24, NIV).
"A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." (Proverbs 17:22, NIV).
 
and that’s OBVIOUS.  No need for any divine revelation.
Quote
all I am doing to questioning the POSSIBILITY that uneducated men may have  had something going on other than just lucking guesses.
and you cherry pick those bits that you think work.  It doesn’t work so well if you consider the verses I mentioned is it?  IF this is a work occasionally divinely inspired, and that’s what I’m assuming you mean, how can one tell what is and what isn’t?  It wasn’t impossible for humans to know such things at the time http://core.ecu.edu/geology/woods/HISTOCEA.htm , and not impossible for them to write them down without using vague words that appear to convey anything but what they meant.  Why can’t this god do this?  The possibility of a god (assumed to be omnipotent and omniscient for now) doing anything is evidently low since we never see it.  That this god gives modern knowledge to ancients without being about to make itself clear would seem to be even less likely and have extraordinarily little point since nothing was done with this supposed knowledge.  If the ancients knew, then why did they burn people for telling the supposed truth from God, if they thought those verses meant the same things that modern theists desperate for evidence do? 
Quote
or is it possible that it is just coincidence on top of coincidence on top of coincidence on top of coincidence.
You’ve presented a false dichotomy. Not always concidence, a lot of hard work and observation.  To assume that humans are utterly inept is similar to the people who think any difficult building from anceitn times was because of “aliens”.  &)
Quote
And again, At this point in time I still am not convinced that the bible is word for word true, but some things seem to be pointing to the fact that not all is wrong. As it is with most findings with most theories.
  No, it’s not all wrong. some of it does have some basis in reality.  But the vast majority, and all of the important essential parts are baseless myth. 


I'd also ask you to answer the questions I've posed to you, rather than running back to who knows where for more "evidence".
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #121 on: November 16, 2011, 02:13:03 PM »
OK. let me see if I can come up with some answers for the question you have ask me. It may take me a little bit as you seem to have a lot more knowledge that I on these subjects. I feel like I am unarmed here. ;) Give me a min. or two.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #122 on: November 16, 2011, 02:22:10 PM »
no problem, Riley.  I told you, I'm hell on wheels when it comes to this forum  ;D
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #123 on: November 16, 2011, 02:26:46 PM »
no problem, Riley.  I told you, I'm hell on wheels when it comes to this forum  ;D
You was not joking about that at all. ;)
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #124 on: November 16, 2011, 06:28:26 PM »
She were not.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #125 on: November 16, 2011, 06:52:09 PM »
She were not.
Thank you, my grammar does need inproving. I will work on that. ;)
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #126 on: November 16, 2011, 11:40:44 PM »
As for stating an opinion, you are correct. As for educated people knowing about evaporation and uneducated people not knowing about it. OK , that I too agree with. Now , where would you put the level of education of the normal people at the time or times the Bible was first written? Would you consider them educated on uneducated? (comparing them to our standards of education)

Massively uneducated, but fully capable of understanding everything we know today.  Also fully capable of observing phenomena and forming logical conclusions based on their observations.   The problem they faced was the lack of available information (often due to poor technology) with which to better form those logical conclusions.   

I did not say that that potentially every place on earth had abundant rainfall when the bible was written. I said as plain as possible that I did not have the knowledge to know what the rain fall was like at that time. By your very question, it shows that you misread the statement and so, was confused.

I wasn't confused riley.  I understood what you wrote.  But you are allowed to use a bit of common sense here. 

I could say that I have no knowledge about elephants that lived 2000 years ago, but if someone asked me if they were capable of flying back then, I'm probably not going to throw up my hands and tell them that I don't have enough information to go on. 

In the absence of accurate rainfall data for every square inch of land during biblical times, what reasonable conclusions are you going to come to?  Is it more likely that there was abundant rainfall over every land mass in the world, or that rainfall was pretty much like it is today? 

As for taking new knowledge and making it match to old text. Why would God need to exist  or not exist. Nostradamus wrote text about knowledge of the future. Or are you once again confused.

God needed to exist for those people because they needed a way to explain everything in the world around them.  As we gained more knowledge about the world, we needed the God theory less and less, all the way to today where it explains nothing at all.  All humans would rather believe a bad, but easy answer to no answer at all.  That is why almost every culture in the world has had creation / god myths.  We have come far enough now where we don't need that anymore. 

As for Nostradamus... lol.  I'll give you another good piece of advice.  Stick to one book full of vague and unimpressive prophecies at a time.  You haven't finished with the bible yet.     
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #127 on: November 17, 2011, 08:52:16 AM »
The Bible stated that kind words and laughter are good for one's health: In recent years, American newspapers have published various reports that laughter releases chemicals within a person's body that can contribute to one's health. And, that depression and stress can weaken the immune system and contribute to various health problems. But, the Bible knew of the health virtues of laughter roughly 3000 years ago when the Bible's book of Proverbs was recorded:

"Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." (Proverbs 16:24, NIV).

"A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." (Proverbs 17:22, NIV).

This is an excellent example of how poor an argument it is.  You are confusing the fact that we only recently discovered WHY laughter is good for us, with being able to observe the cause and effect interplay between the two.

Are you REALLY trying to suggest that - two thousand years ago - people were so muddle-headed that they honestly were unable to conclude that they felt better when they laughed?  So dense that they could take no comfort from kind words?  So oblivious that they were unable to conclude that being depressed and miserable could make you ill?

Of course not - they could see the glaringly obvious in front of their eyes, there is no need for any divine power whispering words into their ears as they slept.

Or perhaps that IS what you are saying?  That the people who wrote the Bible really WERE so thick and dunderheaded that they thought laughing was bad for you?  But if you really think THAT, why should we trust their opinions and observations of this "god" character, if they were so dense to the interplay of cause and effect in their daily lives?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #128 on: November 17, 2011, 11:25:07 AM »
It's easy, even today, to forget that laughter is beneficial.  How easy would it have been way back in the past to forget it, considering just how hard life was for all but the very richest people?  That, I think, is the reason for those proverbs, because it is easy to forget to laugh when being unhappy turns into a habit.  They had absolutely nothing to do with thinking laughter was bad for people; they were a reminder not to forget that it was good.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #129 on: November 18, 2011, 11:33:37 PM »
Quote
As for Nostradamus... lol.  I'll give you another good piece of advice.  Stick to one book full of vague and unimpressive prophecies at a time.  You haven't finished with the bible yet.
   
You may have a point there. I guess one fairy tale at a time is enough.
I still believe in a God, However I am pretty sure that I could not prove he exists, but something in me just can't let go. No matter what my beliefs may or may not be, there is one thing I do know. I will not stop asking questions, I will not stop trying to learn, I will not throw science out and I will not throw out my God. I may question the Bible and my Pastor, but until God is proven not to exist , I will believe. But I will never believe in the Flying spaghetti monster.
Maybe one day science will be able to prove that there is a Creator. yea, yea, I know, I still buy lotto ticket to. ;D
I just know somebody out there is going to tell me I have a better chance of winning the lotto. Am I getting to know you guys or something. :?
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline Maxwell

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #130 on: November 19, 2011, 07:50:09 AM »
It's easy, even today, to forget that laughter is beneficial.  How easy would it have been way back in the past to forget it, considering just how hard life was for all but the very richest people?  That, I think, is the reason for those proverbs, because it is easy to forget to laugh when being unhappy turns into a habit.  They had absolutely nothing to do with thinking laughter was bad for people; they were a reminder not to forget that it was good.

I know someone who does laughter therapy and it works well for them. Better to laugh, eh.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #131 on: November 19, 2011, 10:53:23 PM »
I still believe in a God, However I am pretty sure that I could not prove he exists, but something in me just can't let go.

Hmmm. That seems pretty illogical.  That "something" that won't allow you to let it go is called "indoctrination". 

I may question the Bible and my Pastor, but until God is proven not to exist , I will believe. But I will never believe in the Flying spaghetti monster.

Let me ask you a couple things...  You say you would never believe in the FSM, but I'd like to know how you'd go about proving that the FSM isn't real.  What would the evidence that the FSM DOESN'T exist look like?  What would the evidence that your God DOESN'T exist look like?  In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would falsify the hypothesis that your God exists? 




Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #132 on: November 19, 2011, 11:42:07 PM »
I still believe in a God, However I am pretty sure that I could not prove he exists, but something in me just can't let go.

Quote
Hmmm. That seems pretty illogical.  That "something" that won't allow you to let it go is called "indoctrination". 
I may question the Bible and my Pastor, but until God is proven not to exist , I will believe. But I will never believe in the Flying spaghetti monster.

Let me ask you a couple things...  You say you would never believe in the FSM, but I'd like to know how you'd go about proving that the FSM isn't real.  What would the evidence that the FSM DOESN'T exist look like?  What would the evidence that your God DOESN'T exist look like?  In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would falsify the hypothesis that your God exists?
"indoctrination" maybe , or maybe it is just faith. As for what evidence that God doesn't exist looks like,I am not sure, being that I am not trying to falsify the exists of God. What do you think it would look like?

To preach skepticism to us as a duty until sufficient evidence for religion to be found , is tantamount therefore to telling us, when in the presence of the religious hypothesis, that  to yield to our fear of its being an error is wiser and better than to yield to our hope that it may be true. Although our intellect and ability to think logically are powerful tools for understanding the world, they are not sufficient: We also need to make full use of the abilities of our passionate natures when attempting to make sense of and discover truth in areas like morality, religion, and human relationships.(William James,1902).

I guess what I am saying here is it makes a difference to me. I feel Him, I feel different about life with him. I know he is there the same way I know my wife and kids love me. I can,t prove that my wife loves me , I just know it. Do you understand that feeling? Being that you don't believe in God anyway, what differences would it make to you.
Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline C

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #133 on: November 19, 2011, 11:49:06 PM »
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"indoctrination" maybe , or maybe it is just faith.

Essentially the same thing as most believers are indoctrinated at a very young age into "having faith".

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As for what evidence that God doesn't exist looks like,I am not sure, being that I am not trying to falsify the exists of God. What do you think it would look like?

If it is omnipotent, then, anything it wants to look like I guess? Jacob would know, he wrestled with God supposedly in the Bible.

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I guess what I am saying here is it makes a difference to me. I feel Him, I feel different about life with him.

Of course. I felt different in life without "Him", I feared life without "Him". But if I managed to overcome fear and uncertainty in life, then you can probably do more impressive things.


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I know he is there the same way I know my wife and kids love me. I can,t prove that my wife loves me , I just know it.

You CAN prove your spouse loves you. Did she cheat on you? No? That's a start.

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Do you understand that feeling? Being that you don't believe in God anyway, what differences would it make to you.

Please read this thread: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20666.0.html

A lot of us have been there.

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Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?

A direct healing of a human amputee's limbs. As in, actual regeneration or whatever fashion this god wants to make the limbs reappear for starters..
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #134 on: November 20, 2011, 12:18:19 AM »
[quote? Jacob would know, he wrestled with God supposedly in the Bible.

Quote
Quote
Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?

A direct healing of a human amputee's limbs. As in, actual regeneration or whatever fashion this god wants to make the limbs reappear for starters..
I will read the link you provided.
As for healing of a human amputee's limb. That would sure do it. But just between you , me and everybody that reads this. If I saw that in real life , that would freak me out.  What about you ? ;)
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #135 on: November 20, 2011, 01:13:57 AM »
indoctrination" maybe , or maybe it is just faith.

Do you find that believing in something without a good reason to do so is an effective way to distinguish fact from fiction? 

As for what evidence that God doesn't exist looks like,I am not sure, being that I am not trying to falsify the exists of God. What do you think it would look like?

I'm so glad you asked!

Alright, for starters, I would think that the bible would have at least one instance of error.  Given that there are so many, I believe that is evidence against the truth of the bible (and therefore the truth of God).  I would think that prayer would have no statistical benefit to the outcome of any situation (which is the case).  If God were not real, I would expect the world to behave in much the way it would without requiring the explanation of a supernatural entity (which it does).  If God were not real, I would expect that we would not be able to hear, see, taste, smell, or touch God in any meaningful way (which we obviously can't).  I would also think that any test that is attempted to prove that God is real would be met with failure (which is exactly what happens). I would expect that good and bad things would befall man as a direct result of choices and circumstances (which is exactly what happens).  I could do this all day man.  All day.   

To preach skepticism to us as a duty until sufficient evidence for religion to be found , is tantamount therefore to telling us, when in the presence of the religious hypothesis, that  to yield to our fear of its being an error is wiser and better than to yield to our hope that it may be true.

I'm not afraid of being wrong.  I just like and prefer the truth.  You can hope all you want, but in the end, what you hope for has no bearing on what is true or what is false.   

Although our intellect and ability to think logically are powerful tools for understanding the world, they are not sufficient: We also need to make full use of the abilities of our passionate natures when attempting to make sense of and discover truth in areas like morality, religion, and human relationships.(William James,1902).

I thought that might be a quote.  It didn't sound like you :)   

I'm all for using emotion (passionate nature) when it comes to morality and human relationships.  But as a truth telling device, it's horribly bad.  The evidence for this is the sheer number of religions that have been invented by man throughout history.  You can't get to the truth by going with your gut.  In fact, when it comes to discovering the truth, you need to leave your gut at home, because it's not reliable. 

I guess what I am saying here is it makes a difference to me. I feel Him, I feel different about life with him.

You've probably been led to believe this by people close to you for a long time, and to admit that these 'feelings' you have are nothing more than conjurations of your mind would be pretty embarrassing for you.  The secrets out, though.  All of that is in your head.  You don't feel God.  It's just you dude. 

I know he is there the same way I know my wife and kids love me.

Really?  The SAME way?  Hold that thought...

I can,t prove that my wife loves me , I just know it.

Aside from the fact that she says it, you mean?  Or the fact that she married you?  Or the fact that every night she comes home to you?  Those are pieces of evidence that let you know she loves you.  If she didn't do any of that, and treated you like a total stranger, do you really think you'd still 'know' she loved you?

But you are saying you 'just know it' as if none of those pieces of evidence are present and you are relying solely on this gut feeling inside you that she loves you.  No dude.  Evidence is evidence.  If she didn't give you evidence that she loved you anymore, your 'gut feeling' would change pretty fast.  But if you really want to push this thought, then please tell me what things are consistent between the methodology that God uses to express his love versus the way your wife expresses her love for you on a daily basis.  Does God show up all the time? Does God talk to you?  Does he tell you he loves you?  Does he really do it the SAME WAY as your wife and kids?  hardly....

Do you understand that feeling? Being that you don't believe in God anyway, what differences would it make to you.

I'm not sure what you are going for here.  Is that a shot at me?  Are you trying to say that just because I don't believe in God, I don't have any feelings?  Careful riley.  I haven't gotten snippy with you yet, but I'm not averse to going there.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. 

Feelings are great, but they are not good at telling the truth.  I know my wife loves me because she provides me evidence that she does.  If she didn't give me that evidence, eventually I would start to doubt the idea that she loves me.  Do you understand that?  You can say "I feel it in my bones" that she loves you, but that's just hokey crap.  You know she loves you because she gives you evidence that she does.   

Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?

A verified, documented, rigorously scrutinized instance of an amputee regaining their limb intact with the words "The Christian God was here" on it.  That would be a real good start.  An error free bible, statistical significance to prayer, an instance where I could touch, hear, taste, smell and see God.  There's plenty of stuff that would work for me.  The fact is, however, if God were real, He would know exactly what I needed to have in order to believe in Him.  The fact that I don't have it, speaks volumes.  You believe you have it, but so do billions of other people who believe in very different religions than you.  What does that make you?  Either you're right and all those other billions of people are wrong (and seriously deluded into thinking their not), or ALL of you are wrong and the whole thing is in your head. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #136 on: November 20, 2011, 03:39:51 AM »
I know he is there the same way I know my wife and kids love me.

Really?  The SAME way?  Hold that thought...

I can,t prove that my wife loves me , I just know it.

Aside from the fact that she says it, you mean?  Or the fact that she married you?  Or the fact that every night she comes home to you?  Those are pieces of evidence that let you know she loves you.  If she didn't do any of that, and treated you like a total stranger, do you really think you'd still 'know' she loved you?

But you are saying you 'just know it' as if none of those pieces of evidence are present and you are relying solely on this gut feeling inside you that she loves you.  No dude.  Evidence is evidence.  If she didn't give you evidence that she loved you anymore, your 'gut feeling' would change pretty fast. 

Riley, I'd like to expand on Jeff's point, by asking you to consider these three statements.

"My wife loves me"
"Angelina Jolie loves me"
"God loves me"

I have evidence for the first statement.  Like Jeff says, she comes home to me.  We cuddle.  We laugh together.  We share secrets.  She comforts me when I'm down.  She tells me and shows me she loves me, to the extent that I and others around us are in no doubt.

The second statement....nope, I have no "evidence", man.  But I KNOW it, deep down in my guts.  She's never let me know it, or tried to contact me, but that's not important - I know it, and that's all that matters.  If you just open your heart to the possibility, you'll SEE that she loves me.   You say she doesn't?  Prove it!  Show me one piece of "evidence" that she does NOT love me.  Until then, I know she does.

Would you like to discuss the third statement Riley?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #137 on: November 20, 2011, 08:19:07 AM »
Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?

I don't know.

But if Yahweh exists and is omniscient, as is generally presupposed, then by definition he does know what would convince me, better than I ever could.  And if he is omnipotent, as is also generally presupposed, then whatever it is it would take to convince me, he is capable of giving it to me.  And if he is omnibenevolent, as is yet again generally presupposed, he should be taking -- or, indeed, already have taken -- whatever action is necessary for me to become a believer.

And yet, here I sit, still an atheist, actually becoming stronger in that stance every day.  There are a number of possible explanations for this.

1)  Yahweh does not know what would convince me he exists; i.e., he is not omniscient.

2)  Yahweh is not able to give me what would convince me he exists; i.e., he is not omnipotent.

3)  Yahweh either does not care whether I am convinced that he exists, or does not want me to believe that he exists; i.e., he is not omnibenevolent.

And then there's door number four, which is:  Yahweh does not exist.

I know which of these explanations makes the most sense to me.  Which one do you think is correct?
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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #138 on: November 20, 2011, 08:31:35 AM »
I feel Him, I feel different about life with him.

No no.  You mean, you have a feeling and you attribute that feeling to "him".  That just means you have a feeling.  Until you can show there is a "him' and "he's" the one making you feel that way, you have not connected the dots.  Use your noggin, fella.

I know he is there the same way I know my wife and kids love me.

That is not true and it is quite a disservice to your family.  You know[1] they love you because of how you observe them talk and act on a daily basis.  Their behavior is evidence of love for you.  It is consistent with how we define love.  Meanwhile, god is still elusive.  Invisible.  Silent.  Can't even pass the potatoes at dinner.  Nothing about our observations of god are consistent with how we define "existing".  You have a feeling of... contentment (?) and call it god.  Maybe that is not god at all.  Maybe it comes from mermaids.  Or vampires.  Or, most likely, you.

I can,t prove that my wife loves me , I just know it.

No, you believe it based on your observation of her actions.  Not proof, but plenty of evidence.

Do you understand that feeling?

Of course.  My wife loves me too.

Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?

Nothing.  God as typically defined cannot be measured.  That is by design.  Because there is no evidence for god, his PR people kept changing the definition to put him out of reach of scrutiny.  Too many smarty pants people like us shot holes in their meal ticket.  So they defined god as not even being a part of the time and space.

Also, god, as typically defined, is an impossible entity.   It is a circle with three sides.  An invisible blue toad.  A big shrimp. Patio chairs in the living room.  An omnipotent, omniscient, ombibenevolent, omnipresent being that exists outside space-time.  You cannot conceive these things.  They are impossibilities.

 1. Not "know".  Believe with a high degree of certainty
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #139 on: November 20, 2011, 11:27:45 AM »
to me. I feel Him, I feel different about life with him.

Do you understand that feeling? Being that you don't believe in God anyway, what differences would it make to you.

Quote
I'm not sure what you are going for here.  Is that a shot at me?  Are you trying to say that just because I don't believe in God, I don't have any feelings?  Careful riley.  I haven't gotten snippy with you yet, but I'm not averse to going there.
I may have in the past , like when I first started posting on here. but truth be known , when I first came to this site I had a small chip on my shoulder. But no , I am not taking a shot at you. And That is something that I have found does nothing to get at the truth. So if I offended you in anyway , please understand that it was not my intent.
 As for the rest of your post , I can see some of the points you are making and some of them I can ever agree with ,( kinda) I will give thought to this as I am also finding that if I don't think about things, they get messed up in my mind.
 Let me ask you something I just now heard on the t.v. 
If you ask God for strong family feelings, do you think God zaps you with strong family feeling or does he give you the opportunity to work for the strong family feeling.

Please understand that I truly can see and even understand you belief and the fact that you may think me a fool for my belief. It was not that long ago I believe the same as you. I just don't now. But I would never take a shot at you for your beliefs. unless it was done with humor. ;D
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #140 on: November 20, 2011, 11:31:54 AM »
As for the rest of you guy, If I am ever on a debate team I want you guys on my side. I do feel like I know more now than I did before I found this site. may the learning continue on both sides. ;D
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #141 on: November 20, 2011, 11:33:52 AM »
Quote
If you ask God for strong family feelings, do you think God zaps you with strong family feeling or does he give you the opportunity to work for the strong family feeling.

It depends. Are you a true Christian or not?

Just kidding!

Anyway, it will vary from individual to individual. Such as:

Person A will believe that God has answered his/her prayers and will be full of whatever emotions he/she asked for.
Person B will not get a "reaction" or "response" and will think that the silence of God is meaningful.
Person C will get neither reaction nor response and will think that God is just, well, an imaginary being.

Oh and please read this over: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html

You seem to have the troubles with the quoting.

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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #142 on: November 20, 2011, 11:44:17 AM »
Let me ask you something I just now heard on the t.v. 
If you ask God for strong family feelings, do you think God zaps you with strong family feeling or does he give you the opportunity to work for the strong family feeling.

Think about this Riley: If Christians are "really" born again with the holy spirit and that God dwells within them, shouldn't that make a definite statistically provable improvement in their lives? How could it not? With faith the size of a mustard seed, christians can supposedly move mountains, yet despite the holiest of wedding ceremonies they tend to get divorced a little more than atheists. How can that be? How can christians be over-representative of the prison population. How can a "Good" god have a bad effect?  How can Christian Pedophiles be statistically over represented?
Sure, you can claim that they aren't "True Christians", but you can't deny that they come from the same community and have the same claims as the "True Christians". Funny how none of it wore off on them.

Of course all of this makes perfect sense if there is no god. The Christian population is simply the group of people who won't take the responsibility of being good for themselves, and the representations then make perfect sense.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 11:46:59 AM by Brakeman »
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #143 on: November 20, 2011, 08:49:50 PM »


Let me ask you a question, In scientific terms...  what piece of evidence or what fact would lead you to believe that God exists?


Before you could provide evidence of a god you would first and foremost have to actually provide a workable definition for god. Which is where religions immediately fail because they can't even do that much.

As soon as you start trying to define something you also have to justify why you defined it what way. You also require a solid reason for each of the qualities that you attribute to it. Without a definition there is nothing to form a belief or opinion about, as well as no evidence that you can find to prove existence.

Where religious people get hung up is that the more specific the claims that you make the more you have to justify, the more flaws are going to crop up, and the easier it will be to refute. However the more vague the claims are, the less meaning they have in any practical terms. For example a lot of theists will try to say that god is non-physical, or that he exists outside of time and space. Aside from being unprovable this also means that this god they're proposing has no ability to interact with or exert influence over our world, nor can it be detected by any means. So the concept of god loses any meaning whatsoever because even if it did exist, it wouldn't matter.

So, in scientific terms, before you could even think about evidence of a god you would need to have some idea of what god you're trying to find evidence for.
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #144 on: November 20, 2011, 09:22:42 PM »
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #143 : Wow. I am not sure that defining God would be possible after reading your reply . You continue to bring up things that I have not given thought to, (I like that)  but for sake of argument.  I can not remember who said it; "God is one that nothing greater could be conceived".
and if anyone remembers who said this, would you please let me know. It may have been Descartes but I am not sure.
Would that work as a definition? 
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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