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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2011, 12:10:26 AM »
And if you became sick, I dare say you would fight very hard not to die.  That is inconsistent with what you claim to believe.  If you were being consistent, you would go to the next life ASAP.

It's because they know when they are saved, but if they make the slightest slip up, they might not be saved. On one hand Jesus saves you unconditionally, but one false move and he doesn't. You can never really tell, so it's best to live a life of mediocrity, just to be on the safe side. Jesus calls for mediocrity in the gospels.

I quote from Mark 16:3  Yea, come follow me, and be mediocre. Consider the antelopes; do they strive to be above others? Nay, for they are medicocre. The hypocrite rips his clothes in public; God shall forsake him. Do what your right hand does, even though you know not what it does. It is from this confusion that I teach. For those that understand me shall be the last.

Clear?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2011, 06:03:10 AM »
It's about being separated from a loved one...even temporarily, as in they got a good job.

Yes, onesteward.  You already said that.  I got that.  The thing is, however, you don't HAVE to be separated from the loved one.  In your belief system, you have every opportunity to BE with the loved one any time you want.  All you have to do is stop living and you will be with the one you love forever in the greatest place in the history of the universe.
I can't speak for you Jeff but I have more than one person whom I love .They aren't all saved either.So , just like every other human I know, there will be times of separation...one way or the other.I guess I'll live out my life as it is for now....kind of like Christians have been doing for about 20 centuries.

And if they have been WRONG to do so for 20 centuries....?  I did ask you to be specific as to what god wants Christians to do.....should they do everything they can to stay on earth longest (take no risks, exercise, eat right)?  Or should they do everything they can - short of actual suicide - to get to heaven sonest (take risks, east crap)?

Your answer seems to be.....bumble along just anyhow.....eat a bit poorly, sometimes go on a rollercoaster, go to the doc when I'm puking but screw the annual physical.....doesn't sound like much of a "plan" to me.

Bumbling Along Anyhow.....Yahweh's Plan For Humans

They aren't all saved either.

Interesting.  So you associate with the unbeliever, like the Bible specifically tells you NOT to do.

Why?

One day, they will be burning forever, screaming in the unimaginable torment of hell.  Frankly, I couldn't bear to be friends with someone I knew that was going to happen to.  I might well witness to them, sure - try to get them to believe - but the emotional ties of friendship?  Nope.

And when you are in heaven....will you remember them as your friends?  Will your every day in heaven be coloured and joyless because you keep thinking about Steve and Amy being tortured mercilessly every second?  What a horrible afterlife for you, with every good experience tarnished by the knowlege that people you love will NEVER share it, and are - every moment, every second - in unimaginable pain.

Or will you forget them all instantly when you get to heaven?  In which case, one might ask, why bother with friendships with people you will see for (say) 5 years, but then have no memory of for the next 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 (and more) years?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline onesteward

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2011, 05:07:56 PM »
I can't speak for you Jeff but I have more than one person whom I love .

Then take them all with you!

That is the plan.It takes time, though. I guess that is one reason I'll be here for now.

They aren't all saved either.


Truth be told,
You don't know the truth, Jeff,so...incorrect.


 none of them are.

 Incorrect



  Including you. 

and incorrect.



So , just like every other human I know, there will be times of separation...one way or the other.I guess I'll live out my life as it is for now....kind of like Christians have been doing for about 20 centuries.

Right.  All of them who, deep down inside, know it's all bullshit.
Wrong again.


 You saying "I guess I'll live out my life as it is" would be akin to getting that greatest job offer in the world and saying, "Nah, I'm gonna keep shlepping burgers at McDonald's".

I think of the whole thing more along these lines Jeff:
I'm offered the greatest job imaginable and told that it's waiting for me whenever I get there to take it.I don't have to worry about getting a late start because job security is for eternity.One request is made of me though..."Could you possibly schlepp burgers for another 5 minutes 'til the next schlepper shows up? Out of total gratitude I of course agree,looking forward to my new position which will be starting in an incredibly short period of time.


True enough Jeff. Jesus referred to it a 'sleep' on more than one occasion as I  recall.I still think we are to live out our life as best we can to be of service to God.

What service can you possible offer a being (in this life) that can already do anything it wants?

As a witness, preacher, teacher , burger schlepper....pretty much whatever He would like me to do.
 
I've been noticing lately people have been dying all over the place...strange.

With 7 billion people, I hardly think people dying is strange.  Work in an OB/GYN unit for a while.  You'll see people being born all over the place.  Strange...

You know death is final.I think you believe it ,maybe.Maybe.
You're correct.  I believe it.  With the same veracity with which you believe it's not.  The thing is, however, I'm living my life consistent with my belief, and you are not.  I BELIEVE this is the only chance at life that I get, so I am doing my best to make the most of it.

What kind of stuff would that entail for you?If you don't mind me asking.


  You say you BELIEVE that the next life is far better, yet you are living your life as if this is the one you want to stay in. And if you became sick, I dare say you would fight very hard not to die.  That is inconsistent with what you claim to believe.  If you were being consistent, you would go to the next life ASAP.
Simply put
Jeff, there are things here we are to do.For how long I don't know.Do I enjoy life? Sure. Jesus said He gives us life more abundantly, to that I can testify ..in my own life- He certainly has.
As it is our life is described by Christ as a whisp of smoke, to which I say true again.The kids grow too fast, loved ones die too soon, time and gravity wreak havoc on our bodies and on  and on.I don't have to fulfill my own life somehow...I'm heading towards a beginning , not an end.If I can serve Him while I'm here that is , to me anyway, an honor and a priveledge.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline C

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2011, 05:45:33 PM »
Quote
As a witness, preacher, teacher , burger schlepper....pretty much whatever He would like me to do.

You're either deluded or misguided in your thoughts thinking that an all powerful and all knowing God, essentially the creator of the universe, loves being showered with praises and compliments akin to a prissy 16 year old teen girl while at the same time needs the services of bumbling mortals such as yourself.

Also, would your list include being a murderer, rapist or hate-filled individual? Certainly those things or at least certain attributes of them are what your God wants.
The Second C

Offline onesteward

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2011, 05:52:15 PM »

They aren't all saved either.




Interesting.  So you associate with the unbeliever, like the Bible specifically tells you NOT to do.
Why?

Really? Even family members?So, we're not to witness to people?Not allowed to work anywhere there are unbelievers? I always thought we are going to be in the world just not of the world.
Could you give me those scriptures...I'd like to read about that .
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Online JeffPT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2011, 08:55:21 PM »
That is the plan.It takes time, though. I guess that is one reason I'll be here for now.

Is that the best you've got?  "No thanks, I don't want the best job in the history of the universe.  I'm really trying to make the most of this one and see how it turns out."? 

Ridiculous.  The only reason you stay here on earth is because deep down inside you know the whole thing is a lie.  Otherwise you would go.  I will say this again... anyone who ACTUALLY BELIEVED that the next life was eternal and far better than this one would leave this life as quickly as possible.  It's completely illogical to stay here.  I might even go as far as to say the most devout Christians are the ones who risks their life as often as possible in hopes of dying.

You don't know the truth, Jeff,so...incorrect.

You know, onesteward.  I don't know if you are doing it intentionally or not, onesteward.  But you are writing my name a lot in these posts.  I envision you saying it with a very condescending... almost "I have something to teach you son" attitude.  I do not know if you are doing that on purpose, but if you are, please stop.  While you may think you have something to teach me, onesteward, please understand that I know you are not correct here.  You think God is real, but it's not.  Not even close.  It's ridiculous to think it's true.  It's asinine.  Stupid.  Foolish.  So, onesteward, nobody is saved, onesteward.  Nobody at all. Not you, not anyone you know.  Nobody.  And do you know why?  Because we have nothing to be 'saved' from.  There is no Christian God.   

I think of the whole thing more along these lines Jeff:
I'm offered the greatest job imaginable and told that it's waiting for me whenever I get there to take it. I don't have to worry about getting a late start because job security is for eternity.One request is made of me though..."Could you possibly schlepp burgers for another 5 minutes 'til the next schlepper shows up? Out of total gratitude I of course agree,looking forward to my new position which will be starting in an incredibly short period of time.

So the reason you don't go to the greatest job in the history of the universe... a job you will never leave and get paid better than anything you could possibly get from somewhere else... is because you are waiting for the next person to come along and... take your place?   Your entire earthly life is an elongated version of the 2 week notice? 

What kind of stuff would that entail for you?If you don't mind me asking.

Learning about the world, spending time with my wife and children, helping people with their injuries...  The things that I personally find meaningful.  All of which would mean nothing to someone who believes the next life is the only important one.   

Simply put
Jeff, there are things here we are to do.

Any of which God could do himself. 

Do I enjoy life? Sure. Jesus said He gives us life more abundantly, to that I can testify ..in my own life- He certainly has.

I've never believed in God and I can testify that living life without Jesus is pretty damn abundant. 

As it is our life is described by Christ as a whisp of smoke, to which I say true again.

Exactly.  To you, this life is a whisp of smoke!  This is exactly what I'm saying to you.

To me, it's everything.  In every sense of the word, I value this life way more than you do.  You simply can not value this life nearly as much if you think the next one is the greatest one you will ever have.  This is one of the biggest problems with Christianity.  There is no care for the future of THIS world.   

I don't have to fulfill my own life somehow...I'm heading towards a beginning , not an end.If I can serve Him while I'm here that is , to me anyway, an honor and a priveledge.

It's idiotic.  That's what it is... onesteward.  You aren't serving God. There's no such thing.  You've been led to believe a giant lie.

Just... grow up.  It's freaking 2011.  Snap out of it.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2011, 09:43:18 PM »
What I find a bit dumb about the afterlife, is that there is no conceivable reason for it. Theists say "we are here to live this life and learn lessons from it", but there are no lessons in this evolutionary life that could possibly apply to a world without evolution. All the bad things in this world, that we are supposed to overcome, to be a successful religionist, are the product of resource constraints and competition in this life. All afterlife scenarios in all religions teach of how things will be abundant in the next life, so why are we here to learn to be frugal and modest? What good is that, where the streets are paved with gold, and virgins are on tap? Theists have no idea at all what an afterlife is for, or why you'd go to it. It's all vague crapola, designed to bribe poor people. Despite a "prophet" coming along, he still does not explain why we are here, and what an afterlife could be for, and why God would value selflessness above artisticness.

The Hebrew rules are just rules for control; they care nothing about creativity, intelligence, art, productivity, technology, environment. They are essentially an ancient bureaucracy, designed to keep Israel in control, so they never mention anything positive. They then made a virtue of following these laws to excess, and had to invent a reason why you'd devote your life to such negative tedium. Oh, obviously there's an afterlife! *slaps forehead* We'll just stick that onto Judaism with a glue stick. What's an afterlife for? Who gives a shit?

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2011, 02:13:11 AM »

 You saying "I guess I'll live out my life as it is" would be akin to getting that greatest job offer in the world and saying, "Nah, I'm gonna keep shlepping burgers at McDonald's".

I think of the whole thing more along these lines Jeff:
I'm offered the greatest job imaginable and told that it's waiting for me whenever I get there to take it.I don't have to worry about getting a late start because job security is for eternity.

I see.  So, once you have accepted the job - accepted Christ - there is nothing whatsoever that could happen that could see the job offer withdrawn?

Brilliant.  "I accept Christ".  Looks like I'm now sorted for all eternity......right?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2011, 02:21:36 AM »
They aren't all saved either.
Interesting.  So you associate with the unbeliever, like the Bible specifically tells you NOT to do.
Why?
Really? Even family members?So, we're not to witness to people?Not allowed to work anywhere there are unbelievers? I always thought we are going to be in the world just not of the world.
Could you give me those scriptures...I'd like to read about that .

I was thinking of Luke 9:5....and I mentioned witnessing, you know.  But frankly, its a side issue - which I suspect is why that's the only bit of my question you wanted to answer.  Here's the important part again for you:

One day, they will be burning forever, screaming in the unimaginable torment of hell.  ..... And when you are in heaven....will you remember them as your friends?  Will your every day in heaven be coloured and joyless because you keep thinking about Steve and Amy being tortured mercilessly every second?  What a horrible afterlife for you, with every good experience tarnished by the knowlege that people you love will NEVER share it, and are - every moment, every second - in unimaginable pain.

Or will you forget them all instantly when you get to heaven?  In which case, one might ask, why bother with friendships with people you will see for (say) 5 years, but then have no memory of for the next 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 (and more) years?

Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline onesteward

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2011, 03:35:58 PM »
Is that the best you've got?  "No thanks, I don't want the best job in the history of the universe.  I'm really trying to make the most of this one and see how it turns out."?


As long as I am here and alive I will continue to do what I can to bring as many others as possible to "The New Job" too.It's really a simple concept.



Ridiculous.   The only reason you stay here on earth is because deep down inside you know the whole thing is a lie.  Otherwise you would go.
This is where the term ' ridiculous' belongs, after your statement.


 I will say this again... anyone who ACTUALLY BELIEVED that the next life was eternal and far better than this one would leave this life as quickly as possible.  It's completely illogical to stay here.
You have absolutely Zero understanding of an ACTUAL BELIEVER'S response or reaction toward anything.Unless of course you are claiming here that you were a true believer at some point.




 It's completely illogical to stay here.

No, very logical.If our being here facilitates other people getting saved then it's is the right thing to do.I believe it does.


  I might even go as far as to say the most devout Christians are the ones who risks their life as often as possible in hopes of dying.

They risk their own lives in the hope others will be saved.I do consider them among 'the most devout' as well.



You know, onesteward.  I don't know if you are doing it intentionally or not, onesteward.  But you are writing my name a lot in these posts.  I envision you saying it with a very condescending... almost "I have something to teach you son" attitude.  I do not know if you are doing that on purpose, but if you are, please stop.

 It wasn't on purpose .



 
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline pingnak

Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2011, 04:19:35 PM »
I'm willing to posit that people who believe in an 'afterlife' might stay on earth for the same kinds of reasons that they would finish a movie, book or video game.  See how it turns out, emotional investment, etc. 

Plus they'd lose all their 'stuff'.  Their toys.  Their possessions.

It's shocking how materialistic many people are, really.  Especially many allegedly 'spiritual' people. 

I try to keep my possessions pared down to what serves me, yet still they accumulate, and I'm forced to purge them, now and then. 

My simple rule: Things serve me, I don't serve the things.

If you follow that rule, you will not accumulate crap.  Crap that needs to be 'taken care of'.  Kept 'safe'.  People are slaves to crap.

But other people, well, they just latch on to junk.  In some cases, even literal garbage.  They can't let it go.  Every bit of junk is their 'my precious'.  You can't get them to let go of any little thing.

As someone who doesn't see a need to pack his garage full to the rafters, or pile his rooms to the ceiling with junk, I've discovered a terrible threat to my simple, spartan ways:  The very MICROSECOND someone else perceives (gasp!) empty space in my home, they want to pack THEIR shit into it!

They even offer to 'pay'.

Well, fuck you!  Go pay a storage place that deals with pack rats and their garbage.  I don't need to deal with it.  It stands there 'empty' so that I can walk THROUGH it.  So I have OPTIONS for what to do with that space. 

MY home does not need stacks of boxes.

Plus it won't do you a damned bit of good.  You'll just replace the vacated space with MORE crap.

There's probably a metaphor in there for religious belief.

Online JeffPT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2011, 05:25:38 PM »
As long as I am here and alive I will continue to do what I can to bring as many others as possible to "The New Job" too.It's really a simple concept.

Actually, it's a fucking stupid concept.  You postulate an all powerful being who, at any second, could give every single person on the planet the exact thing they needed in order to become a believer, yet you somehow think it's YOUR job to do it?  It doesn't add up onesteward.  It doesn't add up.  When are you going to realize that this God of yours is a fairy tale, and that the only reason you, yourself are a believer is because some other deluded fool conned you into it too?  And by trying to bring as many others as you can to this "new job", you are actually only bringing people into your own delusion.  That's sick.  It's twisted.

You have absolutely Zero understanding of an ACTUAL BELIEVER'S response or reaction toward anything.Unless of course you are claiming here that you were a true believer at some point.

If I were ever a true believer (in my definition of the term), I would have killed myself to be with God.  Obviously I was never a true believer.  And neither are you.

The thing is, I understand an actual believers response.  It's one of fear.  They're afraid that the whole thing might really be a lie, and they are not willing to risk their life to find out.  The difference between them and I is that I have the capability to analyze the behavior from outside the belief system.  When you do that, it turns out to be completely illogical.   

No, very logical.If our being here facilitates other people getting saved then it's is the right thing to do.I believe it does.

Refer again to what I said above.  If God wants people to be believers, he would give them exactly what they needed.  If he does not, he won't.  The notion that God somehow needs your help to make new believers is lunacy.  He's fucking God, isn't He?  Do you really think an omnipotent being would need YOU to do work for him?  Do you really think the best option God has is to send in an army of deluded, gullible, non-critical thinking fools to 'save' people?  LOL! 

Your being here only pisses rational people off.  All you are doing is trying to create more deluded sheep for your flock of idiots, while the rest of us work our asses off to make this world a better place for humanity.  Plus the fact that every single word you type drives me further and further away from God.  So I guess you're a massive failure at doing what you say you're here to do.  Thanks a lot.  I'm going to burn in hell thanks to you. 

Oh wait.  No I'm not. I forgot there for a second.  NONE OF IT'S REAL.   

It wasn't on purpose .

I've known too many self-righteous Christians to think that's true, onesteward. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2011, 06:07:09 PM »
Sounds like god's will for us on earth is to participate in the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time. Like Shaklee or Amway or a chain letter, each person recruited has to keep on recruiting others with the promise of getting the prize at the top. As soon as you realize that the whole thing is a scam, it all collapses and you feel like six kinds of a fool. But you have to keep on with the scam, because you have so much invested and all those other people to be an example to. That is how cults work,  BTW. No surprise.

If that is all what god wants for us on earth, and the real paradise of heaven awaits, I still can't see why a true believer would not want to take off and claim the prize asap and leave the recruitment to the suckers left behind. And once you figure out the real deal, why not just head on to heaven immediately, taking as many other true believers with you as possible?


As I previously posted:

"All this begs the question of why have an earthly existence (with numerous chances to screw up the whole trip to heaven gig) in the first place?"

"Why not just make heaven, put everyone in there and have done with it?  Easy peasy. No need for snakes, trees, sacrifices, prophets, chosen people, unchosen people, holy texts, popes, burning lakes of fire, demons, false prophets, polytheism, monotheism, different churches and religions to choose between, heretics, schisms, religious wars, missionaries, and the chance of eternal hellish separation from god. Just heaven. Create humans. Put them in. Period. Done."

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2011, 08:18:06 PM »

 I will say this again... anyone who ACTUALLY BELIEVED that the next life was eternal and far better than this one would leave this life as quickly as possible.  It's completely illogical to stay here.
You have absolutely Zero understanding of an ACTUAL BELIEVER'S response or reaction toward anything.Unless of course you are claiming here that you were a true believer at some point.

You make a distinction between an "actual believer", and a believer as the bible tells believers to be. Now I see the distinction.

The bible says that the world is about to end, so you should ditch your Jewish parents (Luk 14:26), sell all your assets and live in a commune (Acts 5:2), use the power of Jesus to cast out demons and sickness, pray and give in secret, and actively love your enemy.

However, I can understand why an ACTUAL BELIEVER would like to ignore the NT, and make a religion out of worshipping Jesus, rather than following him.

It is said by Christians that not all people have that "calling". From this I derive that there must be a spectator class of Christians, rather like spectators at sporting events, who seem to know how to play the game, even though they never do.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 09:59:51 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2011, 11:08:12 AM »
Jeff, there are things here we are to do.For how long I don't know.Do I enjoy life? Sure. Jesus said He gives us life more abundantly, to that I can testify ..in my own life- He certainly has.
  And as speaking as a former Christian and now an atheist, I can say that this isn't true, not in my case at all.  I have a much more loving abundant life when I gave up such nonsense that told me that I could only accept certain people because of the words of book full of errors, xenophobic "morals" and primitive superstition.  I didn't have to be a hypocrite anymore.  As for others, well, I can see Christian after Christian and see none of them having any better life than me.  So much for any anecotal claims by Christians, they aren't seen out by actual evidence.

Quote
As it is our life is described by Christ as a whisp of smoke, to which I say true again.The kids grow too fast, loved ones die too soon, time and gravity wreak havoc on our bodies and on  and on.I don't have to fulfill my own life somehow...I'm heading towards a beginning , not an end.If I can serve Him while I'm here that is , to me anyway, an honor and a priveledge.
Again, we see that Christians indeed should be volunteering for useful but dangerous work, and how curious it is that they don't.   All I see here is a Christian who is indeed afraid that he is wrong and that he takes refuge in claiming that his god doesn't "really" expect him to actually act as if he believed so he can safely insist that this god doesn't need him to fulfill his "own life".  It becomes magically "God's will" that Christians don't have to walk the walk.   
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #73 on: November 07, 2011, 11:42:09 AM »
In the course of my last decade as a Bible believing apsiring Christian, my studies brought me to the point where I concluded that no one living beyond the first century could accurately label themselves as Christians of the ilk of those mentioned in the NT scriptures. Anyone or any group that has attempted to carry that mantle since the first century in my estimation is either deluded, misinformed, ignorant of the scriptures, or is purposely joining a "knock off" or cheap imitation of what was said to exist in the middle parts of the first century.

Remember that RealChristians, those that were said to have lived then, were witnesses and doers of miraculous things. That's not even the biggest thing though. Those individuals taught and expected that their "eternal reward" would be realized within the lifetime of their generation. Christianity, if you want to call what they were a part of that, was NOT indended to be a worldwide religion that endured for 2000 plus years on the Earth! Their faith centered around a living and risen Jesus, as saviour and judge, coming back for them to redeem them FROM the Earth so that they could forever be with him in his God-given Kingdom.

If Christianity as we know it today is a continuation that is directly connected to the believers of the first century, then what they taught and expected failed EPICALLY! If one truly believes the Bible narrative as it relates to Jesus and his Ekklesia, then one would realize that that gathering was to be taken from this Earth centuries ago and that all people not a part of it would simply live out their lives as was the case in the world prior to the events described at Sinai in Exodus since there no longer exists, upon the Earth, a group that is actually "God's chosen people." 

The conclusion then is this; Christianity and the church that promotes it is a farce and a fruadulent entity that has been duping the masses for centuries. The modern "church" no more belongs to Jesus of Nazareth than does the FFRF. WHat the church does do is prop up men in positions of authority allowing them to speak as representatives of God in order to control and influence the masses. If those held in this regard to noble and good, it can have a good effect, but when those in these positions are not, then the Christian religion can have a malignant effect on the world it influences.

Offline onesteward

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #74 on: November 07, 2011, 06:23:17 PM »
Actually, it's a fucking stupid concept.  You postulate an all powerful being who, at any second, could give every single person on the planet the exact thing they needed in order to become a believer, yet you somehow think it's YOUR job to do it?  It doesn't add up onesteward.  It doesn't add up.
My job it to testify.I tell people they can be "born again" because I have been.To me, that means anyone can be.The Bible teaches that everyone gets evidence enough so nobody has "an excuse" to not aknowledge God.
  When are you going to realize that this God of yours is a fairy tale, and that the only reason you, yourself are a believer is because some other deluded fool conned you into it too?

I tried to think of something further from the truth than that statement but so far I keep coming up 'empty- handed'.



  And by trying to bring as many others as you can to this "new job", you are actually only bringing people into your own delusion.  That's sick.  It's twisted.
You don't have a option to see it any other way, do you?


If I were ever a true believer (in my definition of the term), I would have killed myself to be with God.  Obviously I was never a true believer.  And neither are you.

Obviously not in "your definition".We'd both be dead.Someone else would be taking care of our families and so on.


The thing is, I understand an actual believers response.

Actually , you don't understand 'Jack', Jeff.


 It's one of fear.  They're afraid that the whole thing might really be a lie, and they are not willing to risk their life to find out.
Have you ever heard of "The Underground Church"?
The Christians in North Korea or Saudi Arabia?Statements like the one you just made make you sound ignoirant of the subject you claim to have such insight into.


  The difference between them and I is that I have the capability to analyze the behavior from outside the belief system.  When you do that, it turns out to be completely illogical.   

Of course it does! That's like analyzing a movie by standing on the outside of the building while it's playing.



Your being here only pisses rational people off.  All you are doing is trying to create more deluded sheep for your flock of idiots, while the rest of us work our asses off to make this world a better place for humanity.
How are you accomplishing that?What kind of stuff are you doing?


  Plus the fact that every single word you type drives me further and further away from God.  So I guess you're a massive failure at doing what you say you're here to do.  Thanks a lot.  I'm going to burn in hell thanks to you.

I don't know that it was about you.The hell part is entirely on you.
 

Oh wait.  No I'm not. I forgot there for a second.  NONE OF IT'S REAL.    

That would be the part in the movie ( the one you haven't seen yet) where the enemy of your 'soul' takes his straw and drinks your milkshake.

It wasn't on purpose .


I've known too many self-righteous Christians to think that's true, onesteward.

Oh, ok.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #75 on: November 07, 2011, 08:11:42 PM »
The Bible teaches that everyone gets evidence enough so nobody has "an excuse" to not aknowledge God.

That's exactly what the Quran and Mohammad teaches about the Quran. (That's what any religious book without external evidence would say).

Can you explain why, if everyone gets "evidence enough", then why are there so many ex-Christians, or Christians struggling with their faith, and why do we have Christians coming here, like John 3 16, who state that you can't work at finding God, because God chooses you, irrespective of any "evidence" you believe.

Can you explain why Christians who say there is "evidence enough" then try to refute evolution? By doing that, they are clearly showing us that the Bible is not evidence enough; they are just showing us their hopeless insecurity. They know it's a problem that they can't stop up, no matter how many fingers they put in the dike, evolution always shows us how Christians don't really believe the bible is "evidence enough". The fight against evolution shows us that some Christians believe that the Bible is toppling over, and if they had to acknowledge that Genesis was wrong, their life would also fall over.

We are only taking your lead.

Can you explain why, if everyone gets "evidence enough", then why are the top theologians and half the clergy almost atheist? If all they have to do is be born again, then what is their problem? Is being born again so hard? Maybe there is a catch somewhere, that you aren't admitting to.

Why aren't you admitting something is wrong? Do you think that misrepresenting the situation facilitates our faith? We can see you are lying, How is that going to help us?

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Online JeffPT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #76 on: November 07, 2011, 09:13:21 PM »
The conclusion then is this; Christianity and the church that promotes it is a farce and a fruadulent entity that has been duping the masses for centuries. The modern "church" no more belongs to Jesus of Nazareth than does the FFRF. WHat the church does do is prop up men in positions of authority allowing them to speak as representatives of God in order to control and influence the masses. If those held in this regard to noble and good, it can have a good effect, but when those in these positions are not, then the Christian religion can have a malignant effect on the world it influences.

Somebody's just getting warmed up :) 

My job it to testify.I tell people they can be "born again" because I have been.

You haven't been 'born again'.  You deluded yourself into thinking something about you changed, when in reality, it was just you all the time. 

To me, that means anyone can be.

To me, you sound like a gullible fool; who joined a cult full of other gullible fools.     

The Bible teaches that everyone gets evidence enough so nobody has "an excuse" to not aknowledge God.

Yes, yes, I've read that too.  But here's the thing.  Those are just words in a book.  And those words don't mean 'Jack' to people who have an understanding that those words were written by seriously ignorant people.  The fact is, when those words were written, evidence of God's presence WAS everywhere.  From lightning, to disease, to earthquakes, famine, wind, rain, you name it.  Everything was evidence of God, because they used logic in the presence of insufficient evidence (Much like how one might come to the conclusion that chocolate milk comes from chocolate cows without proper information regarding cows and milk).  Fast forward a few thousand years and it's just as ridiculous to say that diseases come from God as it is to say "I'm a born again Christian".  There are now millions of reasons not to acknowledge God.  One important one being... there's no evidence He exists. 

I tried to think of something further from the truth than that statement but so far I keep coming up 'empty- handed'.

Why don't you just pray to God for one then? See what that gets you. 

onesteward, you're a deluded fool that was conned by another deluded fool, who was also conned by a deluded fool, all the way back to the first deluded fool who learned about God from the village idiot.   

You don't have a option to see it any other way, do you?

I'm not sure what you mean.  I could see it any way I like, but I prefer to see it for what it is.  I think bringing people into the delusion that there is an invisible man in the sky that loves everyone is ridiculous. I would feel the same way about anyone trying to bring people into a cult that says something strange like that.  I feel contempt for people like David Koresh and Rev. Jim Jones, and I lump your actions with theirs.  All of it is cultish behavior.  I'm not playing favorites here. You get no special free pass because you think you're doing a good thing for people.  So did those guys. 

Just because I don't see something the way you do, doesn't mean I'm wrong.  It could very well be that YOU'RE wrong. In fact, that's the truth.  God isn't real.  It's a fairy tale.   

Obviously not in "your definition".We'd both be dead.Someone else would be taking care of our families and so on.

What the hell do you care about your family for?  If they die, they get to go to the greatest place in the universe!   If I believed that my children would go to heaven when they died, I might be tempted to slit their throats tonight.  In point of fact, it would be extremely selfish for me not to!   

Actually , you don't understand 'Jack', Jeff.

mmhmm. 

How are you accomplishing that?What kind of stuff are you doing?

My profession is that of a physical therapist.  I spend all week healing people of their ailments.  I help restore people's quality of life.  When I'm not doing that, I work hard to be a great husband to my wife and I teach my children daily about the world around us, and I try hard to keep them away from people like you who might poison their minds.  I drive a hybrid, and I recycle in a state that doesn't require it.  I give blood regularly, and volunteer at my kids school every Friday afternoon.  On a planet with 7 billion people, I'm trying to at least do my part.

That would be the part in the movie ( the one you haven't seen yet) where the enemy of your 'soul' takes his straw and drinks your milkshake.

There's no such thing as a soul.  But I love milkshakes.  Nobody's drinking my milkshake. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Historicity

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #77 on: November 07, 2011, 09:14:32 PM »
That's exactly what the Quran and Mohammad teaches about the Quran. (That's what any religious book without external evidence would say).

Au contraire.  One of Buddha's sermons was to a graduating class of missionaries who would go off to foreign lands.  Buddha told them not to get depressed if they never made a single convert because Buddhism is hard to believe.

For me that weighed on Buddha's side because unlike other preachers he was playing with a full deck.

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #78 on: November 07, 2011, 10:23:36 PM »
I'm not entirely sure what Buddhism is, enough to comment on it. There are too many factions. Some believe in hell, others have no concept of it. I don't even know if Siddhartha Gautama is any more historical than Jesus. But I take your point that only religious books that suffered from extreme pride and arrogance would say it.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2011, 10:43:37 AM »
My job it to testify.I tell people they can be "born again" because I have been.To me, that means anyone can be.The Bible teaches that everyone gets evidence enough so nobody has "an excuse" to not aknowledge God.
well whoop-de-do, the bible “teaches” this.  It also teaches a lot of lies, contradictions and utter nonsense.  Most if not all religions claim the same stupid thing, that *their* god created the universe and oooh, how can you not see it”.  So, onesteward, please do show me evidence that *your* god produced this universe.  But you can’t can you?  Everyone can ask and ask but the theist always fails.

I have no more reason to believe your claims than that of  a Muslim, a Hindu, a Shintoist, etc.  And I have plenty of reasons not to believe you at all, one of the best reasons that Christians lie.  You and your religion fail miserably at showing any evidence for your god. 
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2011, 03:52:40 PM »
When I was a JW, we were taught that the most important thing we could do (besides irritating people on weekends with our literature) was to die in the service of Jehovah. We were supposed to envy people in countries where JW's are persecuted by dictatorships, because they got even more chances to die for Jehovah than anyone deserved.

I wonder why we were not encouraged to "witness" by doing dangerous jobs that serve society instead-- like those older Japanese technicians who took on the task of working in the radiated tsunami areas so younger people would be spared.[1]

"Man, those Christians really put themselves on the line. Digging out land mines in third world countries, exchanging themselves for hostages in bank robberies, serving as human shields for the police in Mexican gang wars, volunteering for risky medical research.  They really aren't afraid to die--they must truly believe in heaven."

If we had done stuff like that,  wouldn't that have been an even better witness for Jehovah God than just knocking on people's doors and being irritatingly "saved"?

But instead of "sacrificing this limited life for eternal bliss in heaven" being the main message of the religion, you see big megachurch pastors telling their flocks (by actions if not words) to be greedy and self-centered. Getting rich, driving a fancy car, having a best-selling book on how to beat your kids and a tv show that begs for more money what it is all about.

I think that is what we are getting at here, and what onesteward is avoiding.
 1. Those self-sacrificing Japanese, BTW, live in a largely atheist culture. Since they don't believe in an afterlife of wonderful rewards, they are risking the only life they have to help others. That makes them even braver IMO.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline onesteward

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2011, 07:25:22 PM »
You haven't been 'born again'.  You deluded yourself into thinking something about you changed, when in reality, it was just you all the time. 
Not how it was at all.This is how it is:
Romans 8:16
 The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.
That's what happens when you are 'born-again'.
 

To me, you sound like a gullible fool; who joined a cult full of other gullible fools.

Of course it does, it's right here :   1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

And here too:  1 Corinthians 2:14
 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
   


Yes, yes, I've read that too.  But here's the thing.  Those are just words in a book.  And those words don't mean 'Jack' to people who have an understanding that those words were written by seriously ignorant people.  The fact is, when those words were written, evidence of God's presence WAS everywhere.  From lightning, to disease, to earthquakes, famine, wind, rain, you name it.  Everything was evidence of God, because they used logic in the presence of insufficient evidence (Much like how one might come to the conclusion that chocolate milk comes from chocolate cows without proper information regarding cows and milk).

Yet, throughout history, those very writings have been esteemed above all others by Kings and Queens, Emperors, Presidents and statesmen and women.The very founders of my country realized the value The Bible held.The founding Fathers of modern science - Kelvin, Boyle,Newton, Faraday, Mendel and Kepler, to name a few were believers of these writings.They claimed ,as I do, life altering experiences based on them.Modern scientists ...thousands of them are believers.

For me then there can be no possible way to see the people as "seriously ignorant" who are responsible for the writings.Imagine!They have either collectively duped some of the most powerful and brilliant men and women who ever lived on our planet or were inspired by someone that through them could author a timeless work , one  that is still as powerful around the globe today as it has ever been.


  Fast forward a few thousand years and it's just as ridiculous to say that diseases come from God as it is to say "I'm a born again Christian".  There are now millions of reasons not to acknowledge God.


Sadly that reminds me of someting I heard Leonard Ravenhill say once: "There are a million roads thet lead into hell....none that lead out."  not sure if I quoted it exactly but close enough I think.




  One important one being... there's no evidence He exists. 

I don't know how anyone can be alive and not see the evidence all around us.Even Helen Keller was able to say regarding the Bible "Life grows richer and Heaven nearer as God's great truths unfold themselves to me."She was born deaf, dumb and blind and could discern the simple truth.



Why don't you just pray to God for one then? See what that gets you.

So far just a bunch of ties...maybe prayer and fasting and I can find a winner.It sure isn't for lack of effort on your part, though.



onesteward, you're a deluded fool that was conned by another deluded fool, who was also conned by a deluded fool, all the way back to the first deluded fool who learned about God from the village idiot.

I covered the 'fool' stuff previously.
   




There's no such thing as a soul.

Of course there is.



  But I love milkshakes.  Nobody's drinking my milkshake.
Too late , I'm afraid.If you find a cow in a very cold climate you might be able to get another one.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 07:28:37 PM by onesteward »
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2011, 07:40:08 AM »
......Here's the important part again for you:

One day, (your unbeliving friends) will be burning forever, screaming in the unimaginable torment of hell.  ..... And when you are in heaven....will you remember them as your friends?  Will your every day in heaven be coloured and joyless because you keep thinking about Steve and Amy being tortured mercilessly every second?  What a horrible afterlife for you, with every good experience tarnished by the knowlege that people you love will NEVER share it, and are - every moment, every second - in unimaginable pain.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2011, 10:16:01 AM »
Yet, throughout history, those very writings have been esteemed above all others by Kings and Queens, Emperors, Presidents and statesmen and women.The very founders of my country realized the value The Bible held.The founding Fathers of modern science - Kelvin, Boyle,Newton, Faraday, Mendel and Kepler, to name a few were believers of these writings.They claimed ,as I do, life altering experiences based on them.Modern scientists ...thousands of them are believers.
Yep, lots of Christians. And how many of them agree with your version of Christianity?  Newton was quite an iconoclast and heretic.  It’s always amusing to see Christians trot out these people as if Christianity was one happy whole, when it is anything but.  I always see Christians claim that huge percentages of humanity are Christian, but when it comes down to it, and I ask about sects individually, oh those “other” people aren’t TrueChristians  at all. 

And as for kings, queens and emperors, esteeming it, you know why, onesteward? Because it affirmed their right to rule aka the “divine right of kings” outlined in your bible, where God puts every single ruler into power and that everyone should obey them without question.

Quote
For me then there can be no possible way to see the people as "seriously ignorant" who are responsible for the writings.Imagine!They have either collectively duped some of the most powerful and brilliant men and women who ever lived on our planet or were inspired by someone that through them could author a timeless work , one  that is still as powerful around the globe today as it has ever been.
So what do you think about great scientists and leaders, etc who believe in other religions that you are sure are false?  Are they “seriously ignorant”?  Or do they simply fail in one part of their lives?

oh and evidence for this "soul"?  If you can say "of course there is", then you surely can put up evidence for that.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2011, 10:36:55 AM »
You haven't been 'born again'.  You deluded yourself into thinking something about you changed, when in reality, it was just you all the time. 
Not how it was at all.This is how it is:
Romans 8:16
 The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.
That's what happens when you are 'born-again'.
 

Appeal to authority, unsupported assertion, appeal to personal credulity



To me, you sound like a gullible fool; who joined a cult full of other gullible fools.

Of course it does, it's right here :   1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

And here too:  1 Corinthians 2:14
 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Appeal to authority, Special Pleading( his magic book is not like those other supposed magic books


   

Yes, yes, I've read that too.  But here's the thing.  Those are just words in a book.  And those words don't mean 'Jack' to people who have an understanding that those words were written by seriously ignorant people.  The fact is, when those words were written, evidence of God's presence WAS everywhere.  From lightning, to disease, to earthquakes, famine, wind, rain, you name it.  Everything was evidence of God, because they used logic in the presence of insufficient evidence (Much like how one might come to the conclusion that chocolate milk comes from chocolate cows without proper information regarding cows and milk).

Yet, throughout history, those very writings have been esteemed above all others by Kings and Queens, Emperors, Presidents and statesmen and women.The very founders of my country realized the value The Bible held.The founding Fathers of modern science - Kelvin, Boyle,Newton, Faraday, Mendel and Kepler, to name a few were believers of these writings.They claimed ,as I do, life altering experiences based on them.Modern scientists ...thousands of them are believers.

For me then there can be no possible way to see the people as "seriously ignorant" who are responsible for the writings.Imagine!They have either collectively duped some of the most powerful and brilliant men and women who ever lived on our planet or were inspired by someone that through them could author a timeless work , one  that is still as powerful around the globe today as it has ever been.


  Fast forward a few thousand years and it's just as ridiculous to say that diseases come from God as it is to say "I'm a born again Christian".  There are now millions of reasons not to acknowledge God.


Sadly that reminds me of someting I heard Leonard Ravenhill say once: "There are a million roads thet lead into hell....none that lead out."  not sure if I quoted it exactly but close enough I think.


Circular Reasoning, appeal to authority, appeal to negative consequences.






  One important one being... there's no evidence He exists. 

I don't know how anyone can be alive and not see the evidence all around us.Even Helen Keller was able to say regarding the Bible "Life grows richer and Heaven nearer as God's great truths unfold themselves to me."She was born deaf, dumb and blind and could discern the simple truth.


Appeal to authority, Appeal to personal credulity, Circular Reasoning





There's no such thing as a soul.

Of course there is.

Unsupported assertion. Ignoring the counterevidence.


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #85 on: November 11, 2011, 06:28:41 AM »
.....throughout history, those very writings have been esteemed above all others by Kings and Queens, Emperors, Presidents and statesmen and women.......

Heh.  What's great about this is that for all those many, many centuries, the world has been at peace, with never a war or a harsh word between all the many Christian countries.  After all, with a True ChristianTM leading country A, and a True ChristianTM leading country B, there would never, ever be any disputes about what is BestTM.

The Rulers and those In Power are all, and have mostly always been, True ChristiansTM, just like Onesteward says.  Living their lives just like Jesus and revering his commands.  THAT's why all the Royal Families gave away most of their possessions, why there were no wars or border disputes, why the top priorities of all countries throughout the ages was looking after the poor and meek.

Snort.

Velkyn made a good point about how Monarchs would follow the party religious line (heh - worked well for Charles the First), but a similar point could be made about any elected politician.  Onesteward, what do you HONESTLY feel the chances are of a politician being elected today who is openly and proudly atheist?  What do you feel the chances were (say) two hundred years ago?  Do you think that - perhaps - many politicians have (and still do) professed lip-service to a religion as they know that otherwise the unthinking sheep will simply bleat them out of office?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2011, 06:37:59 PM »
As we have often noticed, god seems to agree with his followers on political, social and economic issues. Since most Christians don't want to speed up the trip to heaven by doing dangerous work or committing suicide, god does not want that either! And in the US today, god has obviously changed his mind on taking care of the poor, old and sick, because many Christians have decided that they don't like to pay taxes. So much for "give unto Caesar..."
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.