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Offline C

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Question for Christians..and whoever else
« on: October 30, 2011, 01:46:56 PM »
When I was a Christian, I asked my parents and, of course, my pastor about heaven. Mostly about the people who would end up going to this paradise where there's good food, eternal music, playgrounds with angels despite how creepy they actually are:



and of course where you meet famous people and even your own damn ancestors.

What puzzled me though is that, how would our ancestors even get to heaven if they've never heard of Christ, Noah, St. Peter, Abraham and the Christian God? It's not like there were hundreds of Jesuses running around performing miracles in every region of the world at the same time, otherwise the Bible would say that right?

So I asked them, "Did our ancestors, who never heard of Jesus Christ, get to heaven"?

They all said, "Absolutely!"

Their reasoning goes something like this: If you've never heard of Christ in your life-time BUT did good deeds in your life, then you automatically get to heaven. This goes for infants who died prematurely as well.

So then I asked other people and they all agreed that dead babies and good people who couldn't have heard about Christ during their lives would get an EZ-Pass through heaven's gates.

So my question for you is this:

There were, and still are, thousands of missionaries going around the world trying to convert people to Christianity.

But wouldn't telling people who'd never heard of Christ pretty much be lowering their chance of entering heaven and getting salvation? Previously all they had to do was be "good", but now they have to follow certain rules now, pay 10% of their income, pray, profess faith and so forth.

Where is the logic in trying to save oblivious people's souls while at the same time damning them?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 01:51:13 PM by C »
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Offline Nick

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2011, 02:00:00 PM »
Good question.  I remember askng something very similar long ago. Did not get a very good response if I remember right.


Wow, imagine what is in store for those of us who have heard of Jesus and continued to make fun of Him (zombie Jesus for example) on this site.  It can't be pretty.  Oh, well, enjoy the next 13 months.  It is all we poor humans have left.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2011, 02:07:56 PM »
You C, my friend...have entered the ass-backwards logic of the deluded masses who don't know how to think for themselves, and are scared shitless to even think about doubting their beliefs or their god.  They are literally trapped in the delusion, and have little chance of escaping.  They will say practically anything to defend their personal beliefs, including yes to killing their own child if God asked them to.  Sad, but true.  I've seen it in real-time, on this site, and among believer friends in my own little circle.

The entire story of Christianity is a lie, every single word of it.  It is an entire concoction of fear-mongering nut-cases who purposely created a mythological god figure, made up a sacrifice story, and desperately attempted to connect it to the Old Testament, in an effort to give it more authority.  In doing so, they pissed off the owners of that older religion, and created a whole new batch of nitwits who have managed to fool billions of otherwise normal human beings into thinking that miracles are as real as Zues and Thor.  It's both laughable, and sad.  And it is despicable, and disgusting.

Ok, I'm done.  But make no mistake, I could write like this for hours (not that the writing is any good, but my thoughts on it can be endless...)

Offline rev45

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2011, 03:22:23 PM »
This is a little something I read a long time ago.  A conversation between an Eskimo and a priest who had been in their village for a while.

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"

Priest: "No, not if you did not know."

Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

And scene.
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Offline bgb

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2011, 03:47:09 PM »
I don't think there is an escape clause.  The bible just says believe or hell is your destination.
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Offline thunderridge

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2011, 03:54:37 PM »
There is something about Jesus will cover the four corners of the Earth.  But people die before the four corners are reached.  IDK. Religions are fictional accounts that people take way too seriously.   

Offline Nick

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2011, 04:32:40 PM »
The Earth has corners???
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Bellatrix

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2011, 08:41:18 PM »
My Grandmother told me god gave verbal instruction about salvation to his prophets, such as Enoch. She then made me read:

Romans 1:18-20 (NIV) 18. The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19. since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I also found this forum thread (2007) to be an interesting topic of debate between Muslims and Christians:

"Christians: Are All Those That Died Before Jesus Going To Hell Fire?"

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-94399.0.html
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things ~ Isaiah 45:7

Offline pingnak

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2011, 09:39:05 PM »
But you're not thinking about the BAD people who could be saved!

What are a few 'good' people who hear the message and become damned for rejecting it, when you can 'save' all the bloody, horrible bastards who accept the message.

Offline C

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2011, 02:07:50 AM »
Quote
Romans 1:18-20 (NIV) 18. The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19. since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

This doesn't make sense at all. If God was made plain to the people of Earth so that they're without excuse, then why so many different religions and differing views?


Quote
"Christians: Are All Those That Died Before Jesus Going To Hell Fire?"

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-94399.0.html

For a second I thought the link said "NarniaLand". And that thread is like children fighting each other on whether or not Optimus Prime is more badass than Megatron.

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This is how you dubious Muslims confirm that Muhammad is a FALSE prophet!  When Muhammad came proclaiming himself to be the prophet who was closer to Jesus than any other prophet, was he preaching 'another God' than the Biblical God?

Second, how has the Muslim 'Allah' shown mercy to the millions Muhammad and his brigand slaughtered and still do even today? Where is the "mercy" in Muhammad's proclamation that he was made victorious with TERROR?

When you Muslims are jobless, you open a thread, not to enquire sincerely, but to start a controversy you can't finish.

It's incredibly funny how they can see the flaws in each others' religion but not their own.  &)

As for one of the Christians' answers:

Quote
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Which still doesn't explain anything since the god seemed to only be concentrated in the region of the Middle East.

This is a little something I read a long time ago.  A conversation between an Eskimo and a priest who had been in their village for a while.

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"

Priest: "No, not if you did not know."

Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

And scene.

Poor Eskimos :(
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 02:10:19 AM by C »
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Offline rev45

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2011, 08:15:22 AM »
Poor Eskimos :(
I'm not sure if it was an actual conversation.  The several times I've seen that little story, I've not seen anyone say that it was based on a real conversation.  I'm assuming it was made up.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2011, 08:30:56 AM »
But wouldn't telling people who'd never heard of Christ pretty much be lowering their chance of entering heaven and getting salvation? Previously all they had to do was be "good", but now they have to follow certain rules now, pay 10% of their income, pray, profess faith and so forth.

Where is the logic in trying to save oblivious people's souls while at the same time damning them?

It's all to do with what room you get in heaven.

People who get there for just being good, get the standard room.
People who get there for accepting Jesus get the superior room.
And people who get there for accepting Jesus AND spreading the word, get the penthouse suite.

Of course, this makes a nonsense of everyone being equal in heaven, and having no earthly needs or desires......but when did religion ever have to make sense?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline C

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2011, 10:21:33 AM »
Wait wait, what room would people who have killed in the name of Jesus get?  :-\
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Offline Samuelxcs

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2011, 10:22:23 AM »
Wait wait, what room would people who have killed in the name of Jesus get?  :-\

The Jesus slave room?
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Offline C

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2011, 10:23:34 AM »
The Jesus slave room?

Can't tell if that is a kinky S&M room or a room worse than the standard one. :(
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Offline Samuelxcs

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2011, 10:26:21 AM »

Can't tell if that is a kinky S&M room or a room worse than the standard one. :(

The standard room isn't so bad, I'd be OK with that.
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Offline MathIsCool

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2011, 12:40:50 PM »
...
So my question for you is this:

There were, and still are, thousands of missionaries going around the world trying to convert people to Christianity.

But wouldn't telling people who'd never heard of Christ pretty much be lowering their chance of entering heaven and getting salvation? Previously all they had to do was be "good", but now they have to follow certain rules now, pay 10% of their income, pray, profess faith and so forth.

Where is the logic in trying to save oblivious people's souls while at the same time damning them?
I tell ya, coming from a group of people at least some of which are allegedly former Christians, the responses above were a travesty.  If I believed in a gospel like that I'd probably be an atheist too.

Anyways, to your question.  All people have sinned and deserve Hell.  Read Romans 1:18-20 (it looks like it's even provided by an earlier response to the thread.)  The good news of the gospel isn't a new set of rules that you have to follow, it's the knowledge that, if you believe in Christ as Savior and Lord, your past, present, and future sins are forgiven.  Thus when you go and tell people about the gospel, you're not bringing a new set of rules to follow, rather you're bringing hope of salvation to what would otherwise be doomed people.

The obedience that follows (giving 10% of your income, praying, etc etc), important though it may be, is stuff you do out of gratitude of being saved, and in order to get to know this Jesus guy better.  It in no way helps you earn your way into heaven.

Also:
... And that thread is like children fighting each other on whether or not Optimus Prime is more badass than Megatron. ...
You're right, that is a ridiculous question; something only children would fight over.  Adults know it's Optimus Prime by a mile.
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Offline C

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2011, 12:48:22 PM »
Quote
I tell ya, coming from a group of people at least some of which are allegedly former Christians, the responses above were a travesty.  If I believed in a gospel like that I'd probably be an atheist too.

Just shows you how different denominations within Christianity differ from each other in their own teachings/interpretations of the religion.

Quote
Anyways, to your question.  All people have sinned and deserve Hell.  Read Romans 1:18-20 (it looks like it's even provided by an earlier response to the thread.)

All of the sentient and feeling humans, who have never heard of Christ or have, and some of them who have undoubtedly done good deeds even without being a Christian deserve to be punished for an eternity? That's appalling.


Quote
The good news of the gospel isn't a new set of rules that you have to follow, it's the knowledge that, if you believe in Christ as Savior and Lord, your past, present, and future sins are forgiven.

So if I murdered 2 boys, 1 girl and 55 adults and then I believe in Christ as Savior and Lord, then I am forgiven and get a chance to NOT get punished? Weird, weird.

Quote
Thus when you go and tell people about the gospel, you're not bringing a new set of rules to follow,

Uh, no, you're clearly giving them a new set of rules to follow. It's happened in Western expansion, Western imperialism and the spread of Christian missionaries across the world.

Quote
rather you're bringing hope of salvation to what would otherwise be doomed people.

A doomed people that has their own unique culture now have to cast aside their identity and follow this disgusting god? Are you reading what you're typing?

Quote
The obedience that follows (giving 10% of your income, praying, etc etc), important though it may be, is stuff you do out of gratitude of being saved,

God hasn't done shit that has made me feel "saved", much less the millions of other human beings who are being killed, abused, put into slavery and starved.

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and in order to get to know this Jesus guy better.  It in no way helps you earn your way into heaven.

Praying, going to church, giving 10% of your income and confessing your sins doesn't help then?

Quote
You're right, that is a ridiculous question; something only children would fight over.  Adults know it's Optimus Prime Megatron by a mile.

Also, yes they are children for bickering over which of their imaginary friend is bigger and badder and more real.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2011, 12:52:12 PM »
Also:
... And that thread is like children fighting each other on whether or not Optimus Prime is more badass than Megatron. ...
You're right, that is a ridiculous question; something only children would fight over.  Adults know it's Optimus Prime by a mile.

Are you freaking kidding me?!?! The Slag Maker, aka Megatron is the epitome' of badass! Prime has the touch, but his former mentor is the one that carries the biggest stick.

Offline ungod

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2011, 11:50:22 AM »
But wouldn't telling people who'd never heard of Christ pretty much be lowering their chance of en tering heaven and getting salvation?windowless Previously all they had to do was be "good", but now they have to follow certain rules now, pay 10% of their income, pray, profess faith and so forth.

Where is the logic in trying to save oblivious people's souls while at the same time damning them?

It's all to do with what room you get in heaven.

A Pope and a lawyer wait at the pearly gates for St. Peter. He admits both of them, and escorts them to the Popes room - a bare, small windowless room with only a single bed.
Then, he shows them the lawyers accommodations - a sumptuous suite, with king size bed, fabulous view of heaven, a jacuzzi, big screen TV, air conditioning, , you name it."But, but," the  lawyer protests,  "for  God's sake, he's the Pope!"
"Oh, that," says St. Peter. "We've got lots of Popes here, but we've never had a lawyer before."
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2011, 12:09:17 PM »
I believe Optimus Prime has always won every actual fight he's had with Megatron where there wasn't outside interference.  Really, the only reason he died in the original movie was because Mattel wanted a cheap excuse to sell new toys.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2011, 12:12:37 PM »
I tell ya, coming from a group of people at least some of which are allegedly former Christians, the responses above were a travesty.  If I believed in a gospel like that I'd probably be an atheist too.
Really, a no true scotsman argument again, MiC?
Quote
Anyways, to your question.  All people have sinned and deserve Hell.  Read Romans 1:18-20 (it looks like it's even provided by an earlier response to the thread.)  The good news of the gospel isn't a new set of rules that you have to follow, it's the knowledge that, if you believe in Christ as Savior and Lord, your past, present, and future sins are forgiven.  Thus when you go and tell people about the gospel, you're not bringing a new set of rules to follow, rather you're bringing hope of salvation to what would otherwise be doomed people.
Except for the problem of each Christian telling a different story on what one has to do to be "saved".  Some claim "grace" some claim works, some claim just a choice to believe, some its totally up to their god's capricious whim on who gets the magic prize, etc.   
Quote
The obedience that follows (giving 10% of your income, praying, etc etc), important though it may be, is stuff you do out of gratitude of being saved, and in order to get to know this Jesus guy better.  It in no way helps you earn your way into heaven.
One christians view of what his God "really" meant, with no more evidence than the next. 
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2011, 12:24:48 PM »
I believe Optimus Prime has always won every actual fight he's had with Megatron where there wasn't outside interference.  Really, the only reason he died in the original movie was because Mattel wanted a cheap excuse to sell new toys.

True, I told you, Prime has the "touch". I guess that is Prime's inside interferance that enables him to overcome Megatron's mighty. 

Offline I am become relevant

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2011, 08:38:46 AM »
Hahaha The OP made me lol.
I actually inquired into this myself. It seems people are actually divided in what happens to the people who never got a monotheistic message. For example I asked a Christian friend of mine and he said that according to their faith you'd go straight to hell regardless. He said it's impossible for anyone to enter heaven if they weren't a Christian.
The majority of Muslims believe that if you never received ANY monotheistic preaching, you'd go to heaven straight away. But if you ignored ANY of the preachings at your respective time (Noah, Jesus, Abraham.... etc) then you're going to hell. :)   
I is back.

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Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2011, 09:13:47 AM »
All people have sinned and deserve Hell.

Right.  Exactly!  All imperfect, finite beings DESERVE an infinity of absolute torture!
Especially since everyone was created by our loving Father (why would he create us without sin?  Now that would be stupid).

Personally, I believe I deserve hell twice.  I've started holding my hand out, over fire--just to get ready.

All praise the All loving GOD!

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2011, 09:37:29 AM »
My Grandmother told me god gave verbal instruction about salvation to his prophets, such as Enoch. She then made me read:

Romans 1:18-20 (NIV) 18. The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19. since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I also found this forum thread (2007) to be an interesting topic of debate between Muslims and Christians:

"Christians: Are All Those That Died Before Jesus Going To Hell Fire?"

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-94399.0.html

Wow scanning that for a few minutes...dang...a lot of non-answers pretending they are answers. Angrily insisting that answering a yes/no question with niether yes or no, is an answer. And There's no false dichotomy here: If there is only two possiblities of an aferterlife: Heaven or Hell...then it has to be one of the two.

I think Milton had the most equitable and just answer with the first circle of Hell being kind of a paradise.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline changeling

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2011, 09:42:08 AM »
  Thus when you go and tell people about the gospel, you're not bringing a new set of rules to follow, rather you're bringing hope of salvation to what would otherwise be doomed people.

They did not need for you to bring them hope because they did not know that they were doomed to begin with.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2011, 09:43:44 AM »

Quote
So I asked them, "Did our ancestors, who never heard of Jesus Christ, get to heaven"?

Well, I don't know what good that question can do when asked by a theist to another group of theists, others than appease all of them and make OT god out to be the best thing going, even better than cheese toast with a picture of his son on it !... But, at least the rational person knows exactly what the answer to that question is  ;)

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Where is the logic in trying to save oblivious people's souls while at the same time damning them?

Yes, and isn't that's the persistent and pertinent question that is continually asked about the whole god/jesus/heaven idea throughout all the ages:--  Where is the logic ?...... &)

There's one logical fact that is for sure though.....And that is, that the people who have never been exposed to the divine scapegoating jesus myth with all its immoral bloodletting and violence, are the luckiest people that have ever lived.  ;)

I for one, sure as fuck wish I had been one of them  >:(
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 09:46:39 AM by gonegolfing »
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2011, 10:13:54 AM »
Anyways, to your question.  All people have sinned and deserve Hell.

For very strange definitions of the word "deserve", such as "ape", and "like".

You know, Christians have this very strange outlook, where God judges you by "sin", as if that's some kind of goal post that the cosmos automatically centers around. It's so bashed into them, that they don't realize the absurdity of it. Why doesn't God judge people by "productivity", or "IQ", or "sexual prowess", or "number children he has", or "contributions to mankind", or "artworks", or "science value".

No, God is interested in how much you masturbate, because this is really really really really really fucking interesting to God.

Why doesn't Jesus save me from my lack of productivity, or lack of IQ, or lack of children? No, Jesus saves me from my masturbation.

Paul said that Jesus saves us from the curses of the Old Testament, so once you are saved by Jesus, you live for 900 years like Noah. NOT.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.