Author Topic: Question for Christians..and whoever else  (Read 18584 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3957
  • Darwins +266/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #261 on: November 28, 2011, 04:46:46 PM »
once I feel I have this all thought out , you guys throw things at me that I can not deny or just blow off. I really need to give this some thought.  Let me think this out and see where my mind falls.  :-\

I know it sound like I'm being mean, but I too am searching. But I've long given up on the pie in the sky thing when every time, every single time, I arrive into a dead end.

I am searching now for a simple equation; how do I become a better human being without becoming a selfless idiot that is taken advantage of? Where is that balance of enjoying one's life and making the world just a little bit nicer?

And for one, I enjoy debunking. I enjoy logic puzzles and figuring out magic tricks. And If I get people to understand when wool is being pulled over their eyes, I am making all of humanity waste less time on arguing over who has the best imaginary friend and pondering how many angels can dance on a pin. Every lie I explode makes the truth just a little easier to find.

I may not be smart enough to be a great scientist. I may not have political power to change a law.
I may not have the money to be a great philanthropist.

But showing how logic works, and trying to treat people kindly...this, this I can do.


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline kaziglu bey

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 867
  • Darwins +145/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • There is no Big Brother in the sky.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #262 on: November 28, 2011, 04:50:27 PM »
once I feel I have this all thought out , you guys throw things at me that I can not deny or just blow off. I really need to give this some thought.  Let me think this out and see where my mind falls.  :-\

Riley, I have not commented much on this but have followed this debate with interest. I think you will find however that the other members here have proposed a lot of questions that are very difficult, if not impossible, to answer satisfactorily and still have a loving, just God. However, if one goes with the answer that God is not real, those questions suddenly make a lot more sense. I found myself questioning a lot of things, having been raised Catholic (run away!!). As I was getting older and able to understand more things about religion, there really just came a WTF! moment where I realized that it was all bunk. All of the questions I had about my faith, God, religion, and JC, made so much more sense when I considered the possibility that God is not real.

Now, it is easy to look back and think to myself that I was foolish for having been hoodwinked by such a silly bunch of stories and rituals. It is very much an indoctrination, and it is a difficult mindset to break, especially considering that you have had it drilled into you that if you do this, you will suffer.  It is liberating once you get there. It's like being unplugged from the Matrix, and being able to see and experience the real world, not some fairy tale one that you were brainwashed to believe.

Try this: Write a list of the questions you have about religion/God. Such as "Why does God allow so much suffering?" or "Why is God obsessed with foreskins?". Write down all the questions you have. Put "Because there is no God" as the answer to each one, and see if it makes more sense that way. I am guessing that you will see that it seems a much more plausible solution and explanation for the universe we live in.

Religion is set up so that doubt or questioning is considered heresy; doesn't that seem convenient?
Those who have not accepted Christ as their Savior may face Eternal (like, forever and stuff) Punishment. Isn't that also convenient for someone who wants to be able to subdue a population? "Follow us or face the consequence of eternal suffering! Have a blessed day!" It's the biggest and most successful scam of all time. Unfortunately the victims are all too willing.
"A resurrected person who is also the son of a virgin could still be talking nonsense. There's no logic that says he must be right. " Christopher Hitchens

Online velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 18368
  • Darwins +444/-25
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #263 on: November 29, 2011, 09:44:12 AM »
the way that it was taught to me when I was younger was that everyone will get a chance to see god when they die, at that point in time they can either accept him, or deny him and that will determine whether they got to heaven or hell. Not sure if there's any scripture references to this or not, it's just what the pastor taught us.
  As far as I know, no, there is no biblical support for this.  The closest thing seems to be in Revelation where it says that humans will be judged by their actions in life, and there are no do-overs or last minute conversions mentionsed.  This story from your pastor seems to be the usual attempts by Christians to make up a nicer god than they actually have in their supposed "holy" book.   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6749
  • Darwins +485/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #264 on: November 29, 2011, 10:09:35 AM »
So...."How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different."  Under those terms, can you "tell" your god is good?
I don't think you understand. There is no way to look at it under those terms. Apples and Oranges. God is not a person.
[/quote]

As has been said, then if you can't use human terms to judge, then what can you use?  To just say "because I don't know the plan...." is a cop-out, frankly.  We "tell" whether a human is good or not on a daily basis, without ever knowing what their long-term plans are. 

Nor do I regard it as acceptable to claim that "I have faith in the ends", when the person telling you "trust me" does (as you've said) cause you problems: you are trusting them in spite of what they do, simply because they are telling you to do so.  Spin that any way you want, I can't see how that could be termed a virtue.  Frankly, one may as well decide to worship and follow Satan rather than Yahweh, if those are the criteria you will use.  Certainly, there is no reason one should be Christian, rather than Muslim or Hindu or Pagan or.......

If you are saying "well, but the Christian god seems the 'most right' to me", then I have some sympathy for that point of view.....but not a lot.  Given we are raised in a predominantly Christian society, I would be surprised if in general what we feel to be "right" was NOT broadly similar to that one-god-in-thousands.  But as Kaziglu says.....why decide to follow that one hypothetical god just because it is a "best fit"?  All the excuses and apologies fall by the wayside as soon as one realises that, actually, we don't have to choose the "best fit" at all.

We can simply realise that - like all the other tens of thousands of gods there are and have been - it is just a construct made by man, with no basis in reality.  And when you do THAT, it suddenly becomes so clear why (unless we personally make a god in our own image) it is so impossible to look at anyone else's god and agree that yes - they ARE completely good.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Brakeman

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1243
  • Darwins +47/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #265 on: November 29, 2011, 09:00:23 PM »
So...."How you can tell a good person is not in their beliefs but by how they treat other that believe different."  Under those terms, can you "tell" your god is good?
I don't think you understand. There is no way to look at it under those terms. Apples and Oranges. God is not a person.

As has been said, then if you can't use human terms to judge, then what can you use? 

When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge, they were given the sense of Right and Wrong that was equal to God's sense of right and wrong. (read Genesis) You can compare..

How about Uzzah? God Smote him and sent him to hell, even though he was righteous and faithful, even though in his heart he was only trying to help, just because he stretched forth his hand to save the Arc of the Covenant from being dashed on the stones from a wobbling cart.

Explain that one Riley..
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15326
  • Darwins +1178/-40
  • Gender: Male
  • We stand on the shoulders of giants
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #266 on: November 30, 2011, 09:04:07 AM »
riley,

your lack of quoting skills makes it difficult to understand your posts.  Please go here and read the quoting FAQ and then the Tutorial.  Please do it right away.  It will help you to be better understood.  Thanks.

Regards
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1478
  • Darwins +91/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #267 on: November 30, 2011, 12:02:04 PM »

How about Uzzah? God Smote him and sent him to hell, even though he was righteous and faithful, even though in his heart he was only trying to help, just because he stretched forth his hand to save the Arc of the Covenant from being dashed on the stones from a wobbling cart.

Really? Really? For real? Why.......do......you.....make the claim......that...um.....Uzziah was sent to Donte's Inferno, I means Hell?

Online velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 18368
  • Darwins +444/-25
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #268 on: November 30, 2011, 12:04:07 PM »
I don't think it directly says that but if God is pissed enough to kill a man, you'd think he'd keep him out of heaven too.  ;)
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline rev45

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1316
  • Darwins +61/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Did your parents raise you to be an idiot?
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #269 on: November 30, 2011, 12:56:07 PM »
He had is own son/self killed and sent to hell supposedly too. 
Here read a book.  It's free.
http://www.literatureproject.com/

Could a being create the fifty billion galaxies, each with two hundred billion stars, then rejoice in the smell of burning goat flesh?   Ron Patterson

Offline Brakeman

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1243
  • Darwins +47/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #270 on: November 30, 2011, 06:55:16 PM »

How about Uzzah? God Smote him and sent him to hell, even though he was righteous and faithful, even though in his heart he was only trying to help, just because he stretched forth his hand to save the Arc of the Covenant from being dashed on the stones from a wobbling cart.

Really? Really? For real? Why.......do......you.....make the claim......that...um.....Uzziah was sent to Donte's Inferno, I means Hell?
Simple.. because swirling someone off to heaven is a reward, NOT a punishment.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1478
  • Darwins +91/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #271 on: November 30, 2011, 07:04:26 PM »

How about Uzzah? God Smote him and sent him to hell, even though he was righteous and faithful, even though in his heart he was only trying to help, just because he stretched forth his hand to save the Arc of the Covenant from being dashed on the stones from a wobbling cart.

Really? Really? For real? Why.......do......you.....make the claim......that...um.....Uzziah was sent to Donte's Inferno, I means Hell?
Simple.. because swirling someone off to heaven is a reward, NOT a punishment.

Again, why only suppose a Heaven or Hell option when the text you refer to does no such thing.?

Offline Brakeman

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1243
  • Darwins +47/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #272 on: December 01, 2011, 06:03:25 AM »
Again, why only suppose a Heaven or Hell option when the text you refer to does no such thing.?
The whole slant of the conversation is from a typical fundy christian, heaven or hell, point of view. From My point of view, it's just pure stupidity.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1478
  • Darwins +91/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #273 on: December 01, 2011, 11:15:41 AM »
Again, why only suppose a Heaven or Hell option when the text you refer to does no such thing.?
The whole slant of the conversation is from a typical fundy christian, heaven or hell, point of view.

My bad, I seriously hadn't considered this.

From My point of view, it's just pure stupidity.

I would agree and add that in the time of the specific case of Uzziah and the Chest of Proofs (Ark of the Covenant), the fundy Heaven/Hell idea was very likely not in play. It is quite a bit more likely that Uzziah and his contemporaries taught and believed that once death occured life n all forms and fashions was ended. No Heaven, no Hell, only the waiting in an unconscious "sleep" state for a future resurrection.