Author Topic: Question for Christians..and whoever else  (Read 18518 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #145 on: November 20, 2011, 09:32:30 PM »
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #143 : Wow. I am not sure that defining God would be possible after reading your reply . You continue to bring up things that I have not given thought to, (I like that)  but for sake of argument.  I can not remember who said it; "God is one that nothing greater could be conceived".
and if anyone remembers who said this, would you please let me know. It may have been Descartes but I am not sure.
Would that work as a definition?

It's called the Ontological argument. A monk named Anselm of Canterbury came up with it.

It fails for a couple of reasons.

1)It assumes existence as a predicate. It assumes that just because humans can think of a perfect thing, then that perfect thing must exist. Which is untrue, of course. Our being able to conceive of a perfect being does not mean there is one.

2)It also assumes that we can know the nature of god. As I pointed out before this starts a whole other kettle of problems.

3)"greater could be achieved" is entirely subjective depending on the person doing the conceiving. God could not be the greatest by everyones standards because you would have obvious contradictions start cropping up. Perhaps one persons greater being hates Jews, but another persons greater being loves them, etc.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #146 on: November 20, 2011, 09:42:21 PM »
There is just no way to make this easy.  ;) But it sure does get the mind going.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2196
  • Darwins +288/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #147 on: November 20, 2011, 10:13:23 PM »
As for the rest of your post , I can see some of the points you are making and some of them I can ever agree with ,( kinda) I will give thought to this as I am also finding that if I don't think about things, they get messed up in my mind.

If you can find the holes in my logic, please let me know where they are.  I'd be interested in what you find fault with. 

Let me ask you something I just now heard on the t.v. 
If you ask God for strong family feelings, do you think God zaps you with strong family feeling or does he give you the opportunity to work for the strong family feeling.

I don't think God does either one, because God doesn't exist.  In other words, no matter what I ask for from God, it will either happen or not happen based on what I do and the completely natural circumstances surrounding whatever I ask for.  It has nothing to do with any god. 

Could you prove either A. God zaps you with strong family feeling, or B. God literally gives you the opportunity to work for it?  Because if I have to work for it, then it is very possible that God had nothing to do with it.  You can say God gave you the opportunity, but that's a great way to excuse the fact that you have to do everything yourself (which is exactly how things would be if God wasn't real). 

Please understand that I truly can see and even understand you belief and the fact that you may think me a fool for my belief.

Well, I'm sorry but I can't return the favor.  I really can't.  Yes, I think your belief in God is completely foolish, though you seem to have a skeptical streak in you that may yet lead you out of the delusion you're in. 

It was not that long ago I believe the same as you. I just don't now.

Really?  You did?  You believed the same as me?  Then let me ask you what evidence were you presented with that changed your mind from where I am?  Because if it worked on you, then it should work on everyone, correct?  Including me. I will tell you right now that I am very interested in the truth.  If God is real, fine.  If God is not, fine.  I just want to know.  So please present the rock solid evidence that led you away from believing what I believe. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #148 on: November 20, 2011, 11:02:49 PM »
I wish it was that simply. I was a bad boy. :-[ But rock solid evidence was not even in the mix. If it was, then I would not be questioning things now. I started my search of God last May. Well, maybe I was lead to him more than I started looking  for him.  It is a long story with a lot of curves, and as you can see I am still looking for the truth. But I will promise you if I ever find rock solid evidence I will bring it to you. Until then I hope you don't mind my asking you all about the evidence I do come into contact with, just so I may be able to see it with more than just my mind.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 18122
  • Darwins +414/-24
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #149 on: November 21, 2011, 03:25:19 PM »
I wish it was that simply. I was a bad boy. :-[ But rock solid evidence was not even in the mix. If it was, then I would not be questioning things now. I started my search of God last May. Well, maybe I was lead to him more than I started looking  for him.  It is a long story with a lot of curves, and as you can see I am still looking for the truth. But I will promise you if I ever find rock solid evidence I will bring it to you. Until then I hope you don't mind my asking you all about the evidence I do come into contact with, just so I may be able to see it with more than just my mind.

It seems that you were simply ready to settle down and you found nice people who happened to be Christians.   This will happen in the US (which I'm assuming you're from).  I can be quite reasonabley certain that you would have been "led" to Allah if you lived in a majority Muslim country.   It's easy to assume a cause but it's just as easy to get that cause wrong. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #150 on: November 21, 2011, 03:35:49 PM »
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3957
  • Darwins +266/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #151 on: November 21, 2011, 03:42:59 PM »
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.

Not really. Modern religions, after a great deal of exposure to each other...and the fact that the big three have Abrahmic roots. But you compare say Aztec sense of Morality to say Norse Morality...thats the difference between cheese and water.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #152 on: November 21, 2011, 03:46:21 PM »
 Thank you , I did not know that. I will do some reading on it. Again thank you for your input.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 18122
  • Darwins +414/-24
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #153 on: November 21, 2011, 03:52:55 PM »
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.

yes, Allah means "God" but do you believe in that version of "God" like the Muslims do?  For all intents and purposes, it a different god and a different religion.  A lot of religions have similar laws, becuase that's how humans work and like hatter said, we've been crosspollinating for a  long time.   

All religions say that all other gods are evil, imaginary etc and thus they all contradict each other.  If all religons are based on one "god", why is this god so utterly stupid, or evil, to allow humans to kill each other over what is a lie, if your hypothesis is true? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline pingnak

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2327
  • Darwins +34/-3
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #154 on: November 21, 2011, 04:10:58 PM »
But by this description (and I do agree with it), we have lots of 'Jesuses' and lots of 'Gods', too.  After all, the sacred WORD OF GOD that people absolutely trust with their very souls (and coincidentally, do outrageous things because of) comes out different every time, according to who's speaking their god's 'absolute, perfect truth'.

You'd think they could get a consistent message out of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omni-omnient being who would not only know the 'all important' message was corrupted to literally billions of permutations, but have the power to get the RIGHT message out to its believers.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #155 on: November 21, 2011, 04:14:11 PM »
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.

Religions borrow very heavily from each other so it's only natural that there are similarities. Take Zoroastrianism for example, it's probably the most influential religion in history and pretty much the oldest that's still around. Much of the big three religious faiths can be traced back there. The book of Revelations is almost a direct copy of the end times prophecies of the Zoroastrian faith. Just with a change of names.

If you've ever looked at the god in the OT and NT and noticed how different they are, it's because of the change in influences. The Jews who wrote the OT had a vision of god as being a primal force, a sort of manifestation of everything that exists. That's why he can be both good and evil, kind and cruel, etc. all on a whim. Because he's capable of everything, as he is everything.

In between the two books however, the Jews started to become friends with the Persians, and overtime some of the Persian beliefs (They were Zoroastrians) began to filter into the Jewish ones. The Persians believed that there was one universal and transcendant god (Ahura Mazda) who embodied all of the goodness from whom no evil can originate (sound familiar?). He also had his lesser opposite, Angra Mainyu who seeks to corrupt and destroy the creations of god (again, sound familiar).

So by the time you get to the NT you see that god has suddenly become a being of love and compassion, who can't bear the presence of sin, etc. While Satan has suddenly become an evil entity that for some reason the bible never bothers to explain wants to corrupt all of gods creations.

This applies to concepts such as the soul as well, and many other aspects.

My point is, religions copy one another with as much shame and hesitation as the Borg Collective. Don't be surprised that the beliefs get similiar after a while.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #156 on: November 21, 2011, 04:32:46 PM »
Alzael: I have never heard it that way before. I guess after years of religion some of them are going to copy some of the customs. It would be so much easier for all of us if God would just do something to prove without a doubt that He is God.

For if God does not exist it would of course be impossible to prove it, and if he does exist it wold be a folly to attempt it. Why would it be a folly? Because proof involves reasoning and our reasoning powers are limited when it comes to the metaphysical. The best that we can do is acknowledge these limits and recognize that beyond the powers of reason lies the Unknown.(Seren Kierkegaard,1848)
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #157 on: November 21, 2011, 04:36:47 PM »
I guess it is just possible that we will never be able to prove or disprove but just thinking about it opens up all kinds of things.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline nogodsforme

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11187
  • Darwins +1865/-9
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #158 on: November 21, 2011, 04:46:40 PM »
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.

You are right--Allah does mean "god" in Arabic, just like Dios means "god" in Spanish. Allah does not mean "the Muslim god" anymore than Dios means the "Catholic god". If you were a Christian Arab in Lebanon, you would still refer to god as Allah, even though you would be thinking about the Christian god.  However, since Islam developed in Arabic speaking areas, the language of the religion is Arabic, like the language of the Catholic faith is traditionally Latin.

There are a lot of similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam: all are monotheistic, all originated in the Middle East, all share same basic Old Testament stories (Adam and Eve, Noah, etc.), same prophets including Abraham and Moses on up to Jesus. Where they diverge is the "who's yer daddy" question--who is the last prophet, the last person to speak for god?  For Christians it was Jesus, for Muslims it was Muhammed. The Jews are still waiting for theirs.

Jews and Muslims share more cultural similarities, in my opinion, because both rely more on the old testament laws and everyday practices. Like not eating pork or shellfish, rocking while reading the sacred text, covering the head of women and men. Even Arabic and Hebrew are similar languages.

Christianity has been so filtered through Europe and adopted so many old pagan practices from the people there, that it is pretty different from the other two. Christmas and Easter, the major Christian holidays, are totally from the european pagan winter solstice[1] and spring fertility festivals[2]. None of that would have made sense in the Middle East where the seasons are not the same. The more you learn about the history of your religion, the less it seems to come from any god.
 1. bringing back the sun by setting fire to an evergreen tree in late December has what to do with Jesus? Uhhhh, nothing? 
 2. eggs and baby bunnies and flowers and sweets and newborn lambs are not about fertility and sex, nooooo! Jesus said to color eggs and eat chocolate bunnies in remembrance of him....
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #159 on: November 21, 2011, 05:00:23 PM »
For if God does not exist it would of course be impossible to prove it, and if he does exist it wold be a folly to attempt it. Why would it be a folly? Because proof involves reasoning and our reasoning powers are limited when it comes to the metaphysical. The best that we can do is acknowledge these limits and recognize that beyond the powers of reason lies the Unknown.(Seren Kierkegaard,1848)

Actually he's wrong. It's not that our reasoning powers are limited when it comes to the metaphysical. It's that the metaphysical sidesteps reason (at least as Kierkegaard uses the term).

Supernatural, metaphysical, etc. are words that we use when we can't undrstand something but want to assign some meaning to it to make us feel better. They don't really mean anything though. It goes back what I said previously about defining god, calling something metaphysical is a vague claim that puts it outside of observable reality. Thus you've immediately moved it completely outside of the abilities of reason, and also rendered it rather meaningless.

Again, this is using Kierkegaard's meaning where metaphysical is equivalent to supernatural. Not metaphysics as in the philosophic discipline.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #160 on: November 21, 2011, 05:06:34 PM »
you see, I would have never thought of it like that, ;D
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #161 on: November 21, 2011, 05:07:44 PM »
I believe that my religion came from God. However , just like most of the things White men seem to do is take things and make them ours. Like stealing xmas ect. and making it the way we want it . We took the land in this country , we are like a virus, we get some where and just spread out infecting everything we touch. I so wish it was not that way , but who am I ? Just a white boy looking for a God that would make things better for the people that he says he loves, one that can't understand why everybody knows that the world is going to hell( and I don't mean that the biblical way) and people still treat one another like shit. No wonder a lot of people says God doesn't exist. Talk about faith.
 Sorry I will get off of my soap box now. :(
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #162 on: November 21, 2011, 05:16:42 PM »
Do you think that people that are getting older start wondering about God because they are getting closer to death. I mean when I was younger I don't remember worrying if God was watching or not. Maybe after all of my searching I am just play Pascal's bet. I hope not , that would be sad. And it would be hard to respect myself. You all sure got me thinking. I will give you that. Almost to much for a country boy.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline wright

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3339
  • Darwins +216/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "Sleep like a log, snore like a chainsaw."
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #163 on: November 21, 2011, 07:24:31 PM »
Do you think that people that are getting older start wondering about God because they are getting closer to death. I mean when I was younger I don't remember worrying if God was watching or not. Maybe after all of my searching I am just play Pascal's bet. I hope not , that would be sad. And it would be hard to respect myself.

An interesting idea, riley. You could probably find some people for whom that was true, but I'd be wary of generalizing. And while I don't know for sure without doing some research, I'd suspect that post-middle-age converts would be relatively rare. If they weren't, organized religion would not be losing ground in societies like the US.

Quote
You all sure got me thinking. I will give you that. Almost to much for a country boy.

That was probably tongue in cheek, but don't sell yourself short even so. I have known some awfully shrewd country boys and girls. Your ability to admit you might be mistaken in your faith puts you light years ahead of a lot of theists.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2196
  • Darwins +288/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #164 on: November 21, 2011, 07:55:51 PM »
Just a white boy looking for a God that would make things better for the people that he says he loves, one that can't understand why everybody knows that the world is going to hell( and I don't mean that the biblical way) and people still treat one another like shit.

This is just a perception problem, riley.  The world isn't going to hell, and the vast, VAST majority of people don't treat each other like shit.  It just seems that way because the media feeds us that (because it sells better).  People, for the most part, are really good to each other.  Just think about your immediate circle.  Who among the people you hang out with is bad?  I wager very few of them.  Same for me.  Same for most everyone.  Yes, some people are bad, but on a planet with 7 billion of us, of course you're going to get that. 

The world is a great place.  If we could only get rid of a few more things that make us hate each other (religion being the number one in my book), it would be an even greater place.  We have the power to do that.  It just takes a lot more rational thought. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #165 on: November 21, 2011, 08:13:23 PM »
ust a white boy looking for a God that would make things better for the people that he says he loves, one that can't understand why everybody knows that the world is going to hell( and I don't mean that the biblical way) and people still treat one another like shit. No wonder a lot of people says God doesn't exist. Talk about faith.


Dude.......really?

Consider the world now. Then take ten minutes and consider what the world was like 500 years ago. Then consider what the world was like 400 years ago.....then 300.....then 200....then 100.....then 50...... then come back to the present day.

Consider how people lived. The wars, the ignorance, the racism, the sexism, the disease, the rampant poverty, the barbarism. Hell in the Us black people were still being lynched as far back as the fifties.

Do you actually think that things have gotten worse since then?




"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #166 on: November 21, 2011, 08:47:34 PM »
I can see the point that you are making, and maybe in some ways the world has got better. And yes the news does seem to focus on the worst of the world.
But what I mean is back in the day.(sounds like something my dad would say) I could go outside , at night, and play , I could walk to school , walk to the store, play in the woods, just me and my friends. at the age of 11. We lived in a large town at the time. I have an 11 year old. Let me tell you , at dark she is in the house , even during the day she is not going to the store or walking to school, or going swimming without and adult with her. So in some ways , yea the world is getting alot worst.
As you say, the people I know are good people but who would hang around bad people?(except other bad people) My ex wife and I moved to a small town so we could raise our children without them having to go through metal detector at school. So yea, I guess that I do think that the world is going stupid. I am scared for my children, what are they going to do. Maybe the world will wake up and see how screwed up things are and fix it. I just don't think that people's intelligences are keeping up with technology

I pray that I am wrong. ;D (come on that is funny)
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3833
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #167 on: November 21, 2011, 08:59:31 PM »
Al:
Quote
Do you actually think that things have gotten worse since then?
Economic melt-down in Europe and America. The limits of capitalism.

Ecological break-down.

Oil production has probably peaked already.

Too many billions of people, and a way of life that cannot be sustained.

It's going to end in tears.


As kin hell would say, stupid monkeys.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #168 on: November 21, 2011, 09:04:42 PM »
Al:
Quote
Do you actually think that things have gotten worse since then?
Economic melt-down in Europe and America. The limits of capitalism.

Ecological break-down.

Oil production has probably peaked already.

Too many billions of people, and a way of life that cannot be sustained.

It's going to end in tears.


As kin hell would say, stupid monkeys.

And these are actually worse than the way things were 200 hundred years before how? Not to mention that half of those are problems that can still be avoided.

Please spare me the maudlin gloom and doom. You're being absolutely ridiculous.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #169 on: November 21, 2011, 09:14:54 PM »
Al:
Quote
Do you actually think that things have gotten worse since then?
Economic melt-down in Europe and America. The limits of capitalism.

Ecological break-down.

Oil production has probably peaked already.

Too many billions of people, and a way of life that cannot be sustained.

It's going to end in tears.


As kin hell would say, stupid monkeys.

And these are actually worse than the way things were 200 hundred years before how? Not to mention that half of those are problems that can still be avoided.

Please spare me the maudlin gloom and doom. You're being absolutely ridiculous.
I hope you right. I truly do, it would make a lot of people happy. But as you would put it. Look at the evidence and follow where it leads
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline jtp56

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
  • Darwins +4/-66
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #170 on: November 21, 2011, 09:18:45 PM »
Yes I am from the U.S.  I see you point about where I happen to live may determine what God I would look to . But doesn't Allah mean God. And a lot of the beliefs that they have are not all that different than what Christians believe. I admit that some of the customs are different but I am finding that most religions are pretty much the same basic beliefs.

Religions borrow very heavily from each other so it's only natural that there are similarities. Take Zoroastrianism for example, it's probably the most influential religion in history and pretty much the oldest that's still around. Much of the big three religious faiths can be traced back there. The book of Revelations is almost a direct copy of the end times prophecies of the Zoroastrian faith. Just with a change of names.

If you've ever looked at the god in the OT and NT and noticed how different they are, it's because of the change in influences. The Jews who wrote the OT had a vision of god as being a primal force, a sort of manifestation of everything that exists. That's why he can be both good and evil, kind and cruel, etc. all on a whim. Because he's capable of everything, as he is everything.

In between the two books however, the Jews started to become friends with the Persians, and overtime some of the Persian beliefs (They were Zoroastrians) began to filter into the Jewish ones. The Persians believed that there was one universal and transcendant god (Ahura Mazda) who embodied all of the goodness from whom no evil can originate (sound familiar?). He also had his lesser opposite, Angra Mainyu who seeks to corrupt and destroy the creations of god (again, sound familiar).

So by the time you get to the NT you see that god has suddenly become a being of love and compassion, who can't bear the presence of sin, etc. While Satan has suddenly become an evil entity that for some reason the bible never bothers to explain wants to corrupt all of gods creations.

This applies to concepts such as the soul as well, and many other aspects.

My point is, religions copy one another with as much shame and hesitation as the Borg Collective. Don't be surprised that the beliefs get similiar after a while.


For crying out loud.  Religion, religion.  I don't know what to say?  Your understanding of the Bible is sooo off where do I start?  Ask me one question you are truly struggling with.  Are you even interested in Spiritual or Biblical things?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #171 on: November 21, 2011, 09:21:30 PM »

For crying out loud.  Religion, religion.  I don't know what to say?  Your understanding of the Bible is sooo off where do I start?  Ask me one question you are truly struggling with.  Are you even interested in Spiritual or Biblical things?

Yes. It's so much easier to say that than to actually refute what was said.

Be my guest. Provide your evidence that what I said was wrong. You don't have it, of course, but feel free to go ahead and do so.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #172 on: November 21, 2011, 09:25:09 PM »
I hope you right. I truly do, it would make a lot of people happy. But as you would put it. Look at the evidence and follow where it leads

Riley, speaking as a perpetual pessimist and cynic, you're being absurd. Everyone always thinks the times they live are the worst time with the worst problems. Just as everyone always perceives their childhoods as being a better, more innocent time.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Darwins +40/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: Question for Christians..and whoever else
« Reply #173 on: November 21, 2011, 09:41:17 PM »
I hope you right. I truly do, it would make a lot of people happy. But as you would put it. Look at the evidence and follow where it leads

Riley, speaking as a perpetual pessimist and cynic, you're being absurd. Everyone always thinks the times they live are the worst time with the worst problems. Just as everyone always perceives their childhoods as being a better, more innocent time.
I do remember my parents saying things like that when I was a kid. And as I have said. I hope you are right. I truly do, it would make a lot of people happy. But as you would put it. Look at the evidence and follow where it leads.
Is it possible that people perceives their childhoods as being better because they were better?
What would make you think that times are better now than, let us said 30 years ago?
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin