Author Topic: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.  (Read 680 times)

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Offline Samuelxcs

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Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« on: October 30, 2011, 07:52:56 AM »


If people know they are no 'Gods', why do they still believe in religion? Know one can know for sure if there are no Gods, the technology in this world might be advanced, but just not enough to find any 'Gods' at all. Maybe people still believe in religion because it helps people be more good. It shows who they really are? I don't see how this is possible myself, but it may be true.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2011, 08:42:08 PM »
At least he explains why Lucas was crap.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline pingnak

Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2011, 09:36:40 PM »
Became crap, anyways. 

But the bubble is a useful model.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2011, 01:55:41 AM »
Quote
No one can know for sure if there are no Gods

That sentence irritates me.  Don't be ridiculous. Of course we know there are no gods. Don't pander or apologize to the religious. Don't let them believe that their insanity is acceptable. Mock them, shame them. Make them embarassed to discuss their beliefs in public, make them question their faith.

Only when we have erased this stain of god from the earth does mankind have any hope of knowing peace and prosperity.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2011, 01:59:36 AM »
Quote
No one can know for sure if there are no Gods

That sentence irritates me.  Don't be ridiculous. Of course we know there are no gods. Don't pander or apologize to the religious. Don't let them believe that their insanity is acceptable. Mock them, shame them. Make them embarassed to discuss their beliefs in public, make them question their faith.

Only when we have erased this stain of god from the earth does mankind have any hope of knowing peace and prosperity.

It all depends on your definition. You can't prove that there wasn't an intelligent being that created the universe (even if it was by accident).
However, you can prove that an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being that cares about us specifically exists; simply because that definition has more holes than the universe.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline jetson

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2011, 08:53:35 AM »
Quote
No one can know for sure if there are no Gods

That sentence irritates me.  Don't be ridiculous. Of course we know there are no gods. Don't pander or apologize to the religious. Don't let them believe that their insanity is acceptable. Mock them, shame them. Make them embarassed to discuss their beliefs in public, make them question their faith.

Only when we have erased this stain of god from the earth does mankind have any hope of knowing peace and prosperity.

Joebowers!  You are my kind of atheist!  Although, I have never thought of god as a stain...that's a new one.  Anyway, this argument is one that atheists just cannot agree on, so prepare to have your harder line approach to be picked apart by other atheists. 

Personally, there is room for multiple approaches, and given the nature of humans, it is best not to try to force everyone to follow a specific path.  Some atheists don't want to get rid of religion, they just want it sidelined, so to speak.  Keep up the fight!

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2011, 09:25:17 AM »
Quote
No one can know for sure if there are no Gods

That sentence irritates me.  Don't be ridiculous. Of course we know there are no gods. Don't pander or apologize to the religious. Don't let them believe that their insanity is acceptable. Mock them, shame them. Make them embarassed to discuss their beliefs in public, make them question their faith.

Only when we have erased this stain of god from the earth does mankind have any hope of knowing peace and prosperity.

It all depends on your definition. You can't prove that there wasn't an intelligent being that created the universe (even if it was by accident).
However, you can prove that an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being that cares about us specifically exists; simply because that definition has more holes than the universe.

Definition ? All gods by definition are either known as supernatural, spirit beings, unnatural, nonphysical or immaterial entities. Therefore all gods do not exist in any natural reality that we know of. In other words they are beyond what we can know. Period.

Since there is zero evidence for any type of gods and especially since they are not perceivable, then we as atheists must confidently state that gods do not exist and then continue to look for possible evidence from that point on in the reality that we know of. It's an egregious and unnatural error of the human mind to assume or give any credence whatsoever to unproved and unknown nonphysical realities that may contain nonphysical entities. It's absurd and irrational to go beyond what we know to look for things that by definition are unknowable.

The delusion occurs when one claims they have found an unknowable entity out in an unknowable reality.

I agree with Joe:-- If we're going to call ourselves atheists, then lets act like atheists, and not some group of pandering and spineless accomodationists that give theists/supernaturalists the breathing room they need to promote their delusion.
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline jetson

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2011, 09:44:36 AM »
Well stated gonegolfing. 

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2011, 09:58:08 AM »
Definition ? All gods by definition are either known as supernatural, spirit beings, unnatural, nonphysical or immaterial entities. Therefore all gods do not exist in any natural reality that we know of. In other words they are beyond what we can know. Period.

The problem here is that you're using your definition. What if a theist's definition of a god is something that exists, such as life? Life exists; I think we can all agree on this. If a theist has really low standards, he or she might worship life itself. I'm not saying this is rational (for obvious reasons), but it's a possibility.

Since there is zero evidence for any type of gods and especially since they are not perceivable, then we as atheists must confidently state that gods do not exist and then continue to look for possible evidence from that point on in the reality that we know of. It's an egregious and unnatural error of the human mind to assume or give any credence whatsoever to unproved and unknown nonphysical realities that may contain nonphysical entities. It's absurd and irrational to go beyond what we know to look for things that by definition are unknowable.

The delusion occurs when one claims they have found an unknowable entity out in an unknowable reality.

Agreed.

I agree with Joe:-- If we're going to call ourselves atheists, then lets act like atheists, and not some group of pandering and spineless accomodationists that give theists/supernaturalists the breathing room they need to promote their delusion.

Disagreed. I am an atheist. I act like an atheist when I don't believe in any gods. That's all. What I do that doesn't relate to that is irrelevant.
I'm starting to see the "No true Scotsman" fallacy applied to atheists a bit too much here.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline jetson

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2011, 10:23:53 AM »

Disagreed. I am an atheist. I act like an atheist when I don't believe in any gods. That's all. What I do that doesn't relate to that is irrelevant.
I'm starting to see the "No true Scotsman" fallacy applied to atheists a bit too much here.

Your seeing a distinction.  Nothing more.  It is very, very simple.  There are no gods, there never have been.  The entire god mess is made up.  Atheists accommodate this mess every day.  And humanity suffers needlessly because of it.  Yes, we get through our days and manage to make progress despite the full on delusions of large chunks of people.  But it is despite, not because of religion and gods that anything gets done.

As much as I would like to see religion and gods diminished, I know that it won't happen in my lifetime.  But it won't stop me from pointing out that every ounce of it is nonsense, with no basis in reality, other than the manifestation of an actual delusion in various forms, much of it highly divisive and damaging to progress.

There is no Scotsman going on at all.

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2011, 10:26:19 AM »
Your seeing a distinction.  Nothing more.
<snipping stuff I agree with>
There is no Scotsman going on at all.

The phrase "act like atheists" really screams (metaphorically) "No true Scotsman", IMO.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Babdah

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2011, 10:29:56 AM »
Personally, there is room for multiple approaches

Why cant there be? In the war movies and law show i see on tv even the different way science looks at things, you see them taking different approaches. So wouldn't it be feasible to take different approaches to disprove the religious fallacy?

Some atheists don't want to get rid of religion, they just want it sidelined, so to speak.

Why would you want to "sideline" religion, do you think that they would want to "sideline" anything that oppose them? wouldnt it be better to eradicate religion all together so that it would not be able to get anther foothold and history repeat it self? All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
“We live in an age disturbed, confused, bewildered, afraid of its own forces, in search not merely of its road but even of its direction

Offline jetson

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2011, 10:32:04 AM »
Your seeing a distinction.  Nothing more.
<snipping stuff I agree with>
There is no Scotsman going on at all.

The phrase "act like atheists" really screams (metaphorically) "No true Scotsman", IMO.

Fair enough.

Offline jetson

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2011, 10:36:45 AM »
Personally, there is room for multiple approaches

Why cant there be? In the war movies and law show i see on tv even the different way science looks at things, you see them taking different approaches. So wouldn't it be feasible to take different approaches to disprove the religious fallacy?

Some atheists don't want to get rid of religion, they just want it sidelined, so to speak.

Why would you want to "sideline" religion, do you think that they would want to "sideline" anything that oppose them? wouldnt it be better to eradicate religion all together so that it would not be able to get anther foothold and history repeat it self? All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

People have to pick their battles, and balance their lives against those choices.  Not everyone has it in them to fight as hard as others.  Collectively, I like seeing more hard lines drawn against the oppression of religions and their gods.  But in the end, each atheist has to decide on their own, how to get involved, or not get involved at all.  Some take a gentler approach, while others are more aggressive.  I think that's healthy.

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2011, 12:08:40 PM »
Quote
Definition ? All gods by definition are either known as supernatural, spirit beings, unnatural, nonphysical or immaterial entities. Therefore all gods do not exist in any natural reality that we know of. In other words they are beyond what we can know. Period.

Quote
The problem here is that you're using your definition. What if a theist's definition of a god is something that exists, such as life? Life exists; I think we can all agree on this. If a theist has really low standards, he or she might worship life itself. I'm not saying this is rational (for obvious reasons), but it's a possibility.

Please be serious. Your original statement made reference to intelligent creator "beings" and you know right well that you were referring to creator beings that exist outside of space/time/matter. We're not talking about life--organic material existences-- as creator or definitional gods. If that's their belief then they are not theists. They're a scaled down pantheist. Theists belief in and worship an imaginary supernatural creator god.

Quote
I agree with Joe:-- If we're going to call ourselves atheists, then lets act like atheists, and not some group of pandering and spineless accomodationists that give theists/supernaturalists the breathing room they need to promote their delusion.

Disagreed. I am an atheist. I act like an atheist when I don't believe in any gods. That's all. What I do that doesn't relate to that is irrelevant.
I'm starting to see the "No true Scotsman" fallacy applied to atheists a bit too much here.

Are you ? I'm not so sure about that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt however, and although you currently state that you are without belief in gods, you do believe that gods--using the standard definition-- could possibly exist by making the statement:
Quote
You can't prove that there wasn't an intelligent being that created the universe (even if it was by accident).

This is a statement made by the typical agnostic accomodationist that we see today. I do not have to prove a negative. It's absurd and laughable to ask an atheist to prove that an unknowable unseeable thing was unavailable to not do something.

Scotsman fallacy ? Hardly !.....  I may have my doubts, but have I once said that you were not an atheist ? Soft, hard, true, or otherwise ? No I haven't. I also did not say ""then lets act like proper or good or true atheists".

Look, I can't control what comes off the tips of your fingers and onto the screen. But I can call you on it. You may not like it, which it's obvious that you haven't, but that's the way it is around here and definitely the way it should be. What ? do you think that all atheists here are going to agree with everything that you say and that all of your opinions are correct and valid ? You need to think again if so.

I wouldn't for one second think that everyone here should agree with me, and I also would never think that all my opinions are correct and worth their weight in gold. Only an arrogant idiot would do that.

I've taken my fair share of corrections here, and you need to buck up and do the same thing. And also stop doing things like throwing fallacy darts at atheists who call you out on your opinions and your errors in judgment, just to try and avoid what you should obviously do.

Which is admit you're wrong.

 
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2011, 12:37:26 PM »
Please be serious. Your original statement made reference to intelligent creator "beings" and you know right well that you were referring to creator beings that exist outside of space/time/matter. We're not talking about life--organic material existences-- as creator or definitional gods. If that's their belief then they are not theists. They're a scaled down pantheist. Theists belief in and worship an imaginary supernatural creator god.

Did I say "outside of space/time/matter"? Obviously not, because those are falsifiable (and false, obviously).

Are you ? I'm not so sure about that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt however, and although you currently state that you are without belief in gods, you do believe that gods--using the standard definition-- could possibly exist by making the statement:
Quote
You can't prove that there wasn't an intelligent being that created the universe (even if it was by accident).

This is a statement made by the typical agnostic accomodationist that we see today. I do not have to prove a negative. It's absurd and laughable to ask an atheist to prove that an unknowable unseeable thing was unavailable to not do something.

As I mentioned plenty of times: By my definition of a god, I am a gnostic atheist. By that definition, I am an agnostic atheist. I am not an "accomodationist", nor am I asking you to prove a negative. I am simply stating that it's a possibility. I am also not stating if it's true or false; I am not stating that we should devote time and resources to find out; I am not stating if we should even bother with it.

I am simply stating that it's a possibility that you cannot disprove. Does this make it a good possibility? Obviously not.

Scotsman fallacy ? Hardly !.....  I may have my doubts, but have I once said that you were not an atheist ? Soft, hard, true, or otherwise ? No I haven't. I also did not say ""then lets act like proper or good or true atheists".

I agree with Joe:-- If we're going to call ourselves atheists, then lets act like atheists, and not some group of pandering and spineless accomodationists that give theists/supernaturalists the breathing room they need to promote their delusion.

As I explained earlier, the phrase "act like atheists" seems like "No true Scotsman" to me.

Look, I can't control what comes off the tips of your fingers and onto the screen.

That's true.

But I can call you on it.

Also true.

You may not like it, which it's obvious that you haven't,

Says you. I love a good argument. It gives me the chance to learn something new and/or confirm that my ideas are correct.

but that's the way it is around here and definitely the way it should be.

Of course.

What ? do you think that all atheists here are going to agree with everything that you say and that all of your opinions are correct and valid ? You need to think again if so.

If everyone agreed with me, I would never learn anything, simply because I was either always right or nobody could confirm anything or try to find out other PoV's because there wouldn't be any.

I wouldn't for one second think that everyone here should agree with me, and I also would never think that all my opinions are correct and worth their weight in gold. Only an arrogant idiot would do that.

Agreed.

I've taken my fair share of corrections here, and you need to buck up and do the same thing. And also stop doing things like throwing fallacy darts at atheists who call you out on your opinions and your errors in judgment, just to try and avoid what you should obviously do.

Which is admit you're wrong.

See above and listen to your own advice.
FYI: I don't avoid admitting I'm wrong. It may take me a while to see it, due to my own ego, but when I see it, I will admit I was wrong.

Just to reiterate my point:
Because what a god is is up to personal interpretation, one can never be a gnostic atheist by every single definition of the term. To do so would be arrogant and erroneous.
By its very definition, you can't know that something exists (or doesn't) if it's not falsifiable.

That is my entire point. If you want to know whether I think that believing in something that is unfalsifiable is justified, rational, logical, et cetera, then let me save you some time - No. Believing in something that is unfalsifiable is completely absurd.
That said, the opposite is also true - believing with 100% certainty that something that is unfalsifiable does not exist is absurd.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that just because we can't know something doesn't mean we should act on it and never move forward. If we did that, we'd never have left our caves. We should assume that an unfalsifiable thing is either right or wrong (depending on the evidence for either side[1] and while still acknowledging that we don't know for sure) until proven otherwise.
 1. Usually the "Wrong" side has the lack of evidence going for them.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 01:25:54 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2011, 08:50:43 PM »
I don't see any point in denying the possibility of a god in this context, because the theists come in here arguing that atheist are bloody-minded and have "faith" that a universe can create from nothing, even though they have no evidence for it. If you get hooked into this pseudo-battle, which is impossible to win, then the entire thread just gets full of crappy off-topic polemic, waiting for someone to Godwin it.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Historicity

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Re: Why do intelligent People Still Believe in Religion? Part 30.
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2011, 10:03:49 PM »
This is not original with me:

Prayer -- and 2 aspirin cure a headache.

2 aspirin cure a headache but that is God's great mercy to you even tho you didn't pray.  You should be grateful.

Prayer and no aspirin leave you with a headache but the whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth.