Author Topic: "family values"  (Read 1789 times)

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Offline Babdah

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"family values"
« on: October 26, 2011, 07:34:12 PM »
with increase of violence in our culture, is the problem that we had forgotten the importance of “family values,” that our children had become “spoiled with material things,” that we had given in to “liberal relativism" or is the problem that “the abandonment of god” in the public sphere. What is your thoughts on why the violence has increased over the years?
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Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2011, 07:44:17 PM »
with increase of violence in our culture, is the problem that we had forgotten the importance of “family values,” that our children had become “spoiled with material things,” that we had given in to “liberal relativism" or is the problem that “the abandonment of god” in the public sphere. What is your thoughts on why the violence has increased over the years?
How exacxtly has violence INCREASED? the dark ages,ww1 and ww2 the genocide of the Indian nations from 1492 onward the British empire raping the world......it may be because you see it on a daily basis instead of reading a week old story in the world section of the newspaper.

 God followers were the worst of the bunch ,,,,,because they had justification from God to carry on as they pleased
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Offline Babdah

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2011, 07:56:03 PM »
Quote
it may be because you see it on a daily basis instead of reading a week old story in the world section of the newspaper.

that doesn't make sense it doesn't matter when you read the newspaper the violence is still ramped. so i take it you do not think that it has changed?
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Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2011, 07:59:56 PM »
Quote
it may be because you see it on a daily basis instead of reading a week old story in the world section of the newspaper.

that doesn't make sense it doesn't matter when you read the newspaper the violence is still ramped. so i take it you do not think that it has changed?
Did you really see video the instant it happened(Ghadafi as an example) even 10 years ago....how many TV channels 20 years ago? how many now?

 you are now seeing things ALL over the world within minutes of it happening
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Offline Nick

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2011, 08:05:09 PM »
And how exactly is the God thing suppose to help?  Priests still molest little boys, preachers bilk their flocks out of huge amounts of money, believers kill doctors in their churches, we cheer at death penality cases, we fight wars at the drop of a hat mostly over who's religion is best, better, right, powerful.

The most peaceful people seem to be the atheists.
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Offline Babdah

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2011, 08:07:52 PM »
Quote
The most peaceful people seem to be the atheists

I could not agree with you more on this.



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Offline jetson

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2011, 08:08:33 PM »
I think you need to show clear and convincing evidence that violence is increasing before we should be expected to reply.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2011, 08:14:48 PM »
Actually, I'd say the issue is largely artificial.  It isn't that family values are any better or worse, it's that people are beating a drum.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2011, 08:21:38 PM »
with increase of violence in our culture, is the problem that we had forgotten the importance of “family values,” that our children had become “spoiled with material things,” that we had given in to “liberal relativism" or is the problem that “the abandonment of god” in the public sphere. What is your thoughts on why the violence has increased over the years?

Our TV culture is full of violence and cop shows, and computer games are all about violence, but the violent crime statistics are dropping in all liberal countries, probably because of the general increase in wealth, and more sophisticated crime prevention methods, such as networked cameras that send alarms when triggered.

There was a bad upswing in crime towards 1990, which may have been due to heroin and lead exposure, but they are having difficulty explaining the total drop, since 1990.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States



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Offline Babdah

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2011, 08:30:03 PM »
well with immigration issues

http://www.examiner.com/immigration-in-tucson/u-s-anti-latino-violence-on-rise-as-immigration-debate-heats-up

Domestic violence due to the decrease in jobs
http://www.globalenvision.org/2009/04/10/recession-related-domestic-violence-rise

Child abuse
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15288865

I mean it is every where but for some reason they say it is on a decline which i hardly can believe. it might be due to the fact the local law enforcement cant do anything about it so most probley do not report it.

Quote
It isn't that family values are any better or worse, it's that people are beating a drum

could you elaborate?
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Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2011, 08:39:32 PM »
The "white" immigrants did FUCK ALL for us Indians.....posting anything about immigrant violence in the present tense is a wash in my books
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Offline Babdah

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2011, 08:48:05 PM »
The "white" immigrants did FUCK ALL for us Indians.....posting anything about immigrant violence in the present tense is a wash in my books

I understand were your coming from my mother is full blood Pawnee and she laughs about the immigrant issues all the time.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2011, 08:48:19 PM »

Domestic violence due to the decrease in jobs
http://www.globalenvision.org/2009/04/10/recession-related-domestic-violence-rise


So, right there, you can see a connection between wealth and abuse of women, so wealth is the cause, not moral values.

Quote
I mean it is every where but for some reason they say it is on a decline which i hardly can believe. it might be due to the fact the local law enforcement cant do anything about it so most probley do not report it.

Crapola. They always report violent crimes. Back in the 50's and 60's they didn't bother with domestic violence. It was the father's right to get drunk and beat up the whole family.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Historicity

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2011, 09:08:13 PM »
When the Republicans invented the phrase "family values" at the 1994 Convention it produced the reaction ???????

As one liberal woman said, "What do they mean?  Don't talk with while eating?  That was something my mother taught me."

A couple gubernatorial elections ago in Florida the liberal Charlie Crist had a conservative running against him on a stand of "family values".  Crist had gone on record that if the legislature passed a gay civil union bill he'd have no trouble signing it.  His opponent made it plain that gays don't -- and shouldn't -- have families.  In that case and some other cases "family values" is a code word for homophobia.

Offline albeto

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2011, 09:13:00 PM »
Stats show a peaceful world.

The idea of "family values" inspired rationalization of racism, misogyny, antisemitism, xenophobia, etc.  "Family values" is a euphemism for "people know their place and don't disturb those of us with power."  Sorry, no sale. 

Offline natlegend

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2011, 10:17:04 PM »
Regarding the OP, yes, I think I know what you mean? Children are growing up in a very different environment these days. When I was young my parents were able to smack me (although that very rarely happened, the idea of being smacked was always enough to keep me in line). And I was also able to play on park play equipment and inevitably hurt myself, cos that's what kids 25 years ago did. Nowadays though, parents can't smack their kids and children know it. Play equipment has everything but cotton wool these days, as local councils are (rightly) covering their arses against litigation. It's bloody ridiculous! Kids have no respect for authority because there *is* none anymore.

*sigh*

Hey you kids, get offa mah lawn!!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline dloubet

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2011, 12:50:21 AM »
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

We live in peaceful times. Despite religion.

Strange but true.

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Offline ungod

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2011, 01:15:39 AM »
I think you need to show clear and convincing evidence that violence is increasing before we should be expected to reply.
I think we need to know what the hell is meant by the so over used warm and fuzzy phrase, "family values."
I suppose we're all supposed to think it's the oh so close to reality depicted on those reruns of "Leave it to Beaver", or "The Waltons", so favoured by the religious channels for filling in air time.
Meanwhile, the reality of family life in religious families can  be quite another story. Check out the families who decide faith healing is better for their children than medical care. Or the families that decide a daughters western dress or boyfriend have "dishonoured" them!
Is that the kind of family values we're talking about here? No violence there, right?
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Offline jetson

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2011, 06:06:10 AM »
Regarding the OP, yes, I think I know what you mean? Children are growing up in a very different environment these days. When I was young my parents were able to smack me (although that very rarely happened, the idea of being smacked was always enough to keep me in line). And I was also able to play on park play equipment and inevitably hurt myself, cos that's what kids 25 years ago did. Nowadays though, parents can't smack their kids and children know it. Play equipment has everything but cotton wool these days, as local councils are (rightly) covering their arses against litigation. It's bloody ridiculous! Kids have no respect for authority because there *is* none anymore.

*sigh*

Hey you kids, get offa mah lawn!!

I would say that some evidence is required to show some distribution of children's "respect for authority" by the environment they grew up in, and how it correlates to "family values", whatever that means.  If we toss out too much anecdotal noise, we will be unable to agree on what may or may not be happening.

I know that many people feel that kids are now protected by a new culture that won't tolerate the same level of discipline than in the past.  But if you think about it, why wouldn't humans want to evolve towards better treatment for our children?  Why wouldn't we want to improve the safety of playground equipment?  Why would we want it to be OK to "smack" our children when we don't like their behavior?

It needs to be said that children having respect for authority is more than just being subjected to the whims of an adult, and especially parents who feel the need to use physical force in an attempt to modify behavior.  Despite what many adults say about how they "turned out fine" after being physically hit, spanked, and smacked by their parents, it is inevitably a violent and largely unnecessary method that we should strive to remove.  I mean, what parent plans to use spanking and smacking?  I would say none do, rather, they react to a situation by using the only thing left - physical power that the child is defenseless against.

The respect that many people would like us to think is gone, may in fact be gone because adults who mistreat children do not deserve any respect.  And sadly, the mind of a young child is certainly not mature enough to distinguish between love and respect for their parent when physical violence is used against them.  It may well be sending a clear message that people who love them, hit them.  What a lovely idea to embed in the mind of a toddler.

On the issue of family values being properly defined, I certainly agree that the way the term is thrown around, we can hardly take it seriously until we can all agree that the very subjective idea has some common ground, and leaves room for the diverse ways that families work together in modern times to make the best of the time they spend together.

Offline Babdah

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2011, 08:00:56 AM »
Quote
When I was young my parents were able to smack me

Did really tech you anything or did you just learn that if you do that again your get hit, and not why you should not do it?

Quote
can't smack their kids and children know it

it is use less because it causes more violence, you can correct violence with violence.

Quote
On the issue of family values being properly defined, I certainly agree that the way the term is thrown around, we can hardly take it seriously

That maybe true but in some way we all conform to a certain "family values" that we are raised in. only we modify them to fit our beliefs and combine them we a partner that we meet a little more modification after we are married then poof we have "family values". I think that everyone's family values are the some what the same, i think the real question is what are family values to you and how important are they in your family life?     

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2011, 10:04:46 AM »
Quote
It isn't that family values are any better or worse, it's that people are beating a drum
could you elaborate?
Sure.  Go back to a different point in history, and you'll likely find people complaining because things are worse today than they were when they were kids, or something like that.  So it isn't necessarily that things are any better or worse, it's that you have people beating a drum to tell others about all these problems that society is having that it didn't have in the past.

Offline albeto

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2011, 12:02:03 PM »
I think that everyone's family values are the some what the same, i think the real question is what are family values to you and how important are they in your family life?   

Can you be more specific with what you mean by "family values"?

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2011, 08:48:29 PM »
I'm not real clear on what the right considers "family values" of course, they aren't either, or they'd tell us what it means.

What I want to know is why is it my ALL of liberal friends had kids that grew up to be good, honest and productive members of society while many of my conservative friends had kids that got pregnant at 14, indulged in drugs, partied hardy as a lifestyle, etc. And no this doesn't mean I know Sarah Palin.

Newt Gingrich espouses family values and is on his third wife. I once was at a bible study (I was visiting friends who were hosting it), and it came up that nine out of the ten people in the room had been married at least twice.

I of course know liberals who have been divorced, but they don't pretend that they're as pure as wind blown snow.

"Family Values" only works as a sound bite.  The phrase has no value because each individual is allowed to let it mean whatever they want it to. Every riled right winger is mad for a different reason. If they ever actually sat down and thought about it, they'd be embarrassed. As it is, they don't value thinking, so no progress is ever made.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 01:38:46 PM »
with increase of violence in our culture, is the problem that we had forgotten the importance of “family values,” that our children had become “spoiled with material things,” that we had given in to “liberal relativism" or is the problem that “the abandonment of god” in the public sphere. What is your thoughts on why the violence has increased over the years?

rather than posting endless questions, how about posting what *you* think?   And how do you define "family values"?  Like some of the Christains in the US who do in this country aka women have no rights, children only have rights until they clear the vagina and then screw them?  The bible which has such great "godly" instructions that a man has a choice, remain enslaved or abandon his family? 
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Offline Babdah

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2011, 05:15:59 PM »
rather than posting endless questions, how about posting what *you* think?   And how do you define "family values"?  Like some of the Christains in the US who do in this country aka women have no rights, children only have rights until they clear the vagina and then screw them?  The bible which has such great "godly" instructions that a man has a choice, remain enslaved or abandon his family?

I would say family values are what you teach your children and how you carry your self around your family. whether or not your religious, what you teach your children, how you spent quality time with your family, and general family life. I honestly did not expect a whole lot of politics and religious negativity.     
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Offline velkyn

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2011, 09:47:21 AM »
I would say family values are what you teach your children and how you carry your self around your family. whether or not your religious, what you teach your children, how you spent quality time with your family, and general family life. I honestly did not expect a whole lot of politics and religious negativity.     

That’s because the term “family values “has been bastardized by the religious right here in the US.  Anyone who disagrees with their “only one husband, one submissive wife and children make a REAL family” bible based rhetoric is declared against “family values”. 
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2011, 12:07:51 PM »

That’s because the term “family values “has been bastardized by the religious right here in the US.  Anyone who disagrees with their “only one husband, one submissive wife and children make a REAL family” bible based rhetoric is declared against “family values”. 

 

I always thought that the bible said bigamy/polygamy was ok, because nowhere explicitly condemns it. Hell, there are various chapters that talk about it, like Genesis 4:19, Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives.



That’s because the term “family values “has been bastardized by the religious right here in the US.

 I don’t think it is some much religion I think that it more to do with  the women, and government that pushed these ideas.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2011, 12:17:24 PM »
I always thought that the bible said bigamy/polygamy was ok, because nowhere explicitly condemns it. Hell, there are various chapters that talk about it, like Genesis 4:19, Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives.
Yes, it does, and of course there are Christians who laim this and Christains who are horrified by polygamy and sure their god couldn't have possibly been okay with *that*.



That’s because the term “family values “has been bastardized by the religious right here in the US.

 I don’t think it is some much religion I think that it more to do with  the women, and government that pushed these ideas.
[/quote]

Where did they get the "ideas" from? 
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: "family values"
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2011, 12:25:43 PM »
Yes, it does, and of course there are Christians who laim this and Christains who are horrified by polygamy and sure their god couldn't have possibly been okay with *that*.

I dont see how they could not of seen it GoD did not punsh any of them for it.


Where did they get the "ideas" from?

 Maybe just maybe, the women right movements in the early 1800's were they took a stand to be able to divorce and keep their kids afterwards. Even then women were treated as a possession.
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.