Poll

What is a christian?

One who believes in the god described in the Bible according to his/her interpretation of it
16 (43.2%)
One who believes in the god described in the Bible according to his/her interpretation of it and follows his/her interpretation of it
7 (18.9%)
One who believes in the god described in the Bible according to my interpretation of it
0 (0%)
One who believes in the god described in the Bible according to my interpretation of it and follows my interpretation of it
0 (0%)
I don't know
1 (2.7%)
Other (please explain in a post)
13 (35.1%)

Total Members Voted: 36

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Offline jtp56

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2011, 07:27:13 PM »
Sorry, Hatter came back....my bad.  Until later.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline kevinagain

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2011, 07:28:19 PM »
I can only speak from personal experience.  A Christian to me is someone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.  By that I mean a Christian is lead by the spirit, meaning obeying the Holy Spirit which dwells within their heart.  All actions (leading's) must be supported by the Bible.

hey jtp

what is the resolution of situations where the bible is absent? can one be a christian without the bible?

or perhaps, can the holy spirit lead someone without the bible being involved?

Offline Emily

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2011, 07:42:28 PM »
I get a nasty email for posting and running, now look what hatter23 just did!!!   You gonna send him an email?

Sorry, Hatter came back....my bad.  Until later.

These two comments make you sound like a complete douche.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2011, 07:59:57 PM »
I can only speak from personal experience.  A Christian to me is someone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.  By that I mean a Christian is lead by the spirit, meaning obeying the Holy Spirit which dwells within their heart.  All actions (leading's) must be supported by the Bible.

The threads on this site oftentimes talk about other religions based on the Old Testament or part of the Old Testament.  Paul talks about the Jews, Jesus talks about the false prophets.  But differentiating or discussing different cultures or behavior has nothing to do with one being a Christian or not.  Even in America smoking and drinking was OK for Christians at one time.  God forbid even a God hating atheist be caught smoking somewhere today.

What behavior do Christians need to exhibit for you to believe?

You start off with special pleading about invisible entities that are untestable.

You go on to not get that "different cultures" don't agree with your definition

You somehow think that "smoking" is treated like pedophilia...it isn't

Then you ask what behavior Christian need to exhibit for us to believe.  I would like them to exhibit the behavior of healing amputees.
 

I get a nasty email for posting and running, now look what hatter23 just did!!!   You gonna send him an email?

I responded to quickly before, now to address your other points:

Invisible entities were tested in the Old Testament.  The Old Testament is like looking at the shadow.  The New Testament is looking at the man.  It's so difficult to compare or reconcile.  Paul (a Jew's Jew) tries and tries in the Epistles.  I am not going to test God.  You need to test God, Please do, sincerely.

Where in the Bible is Pedophilia OK?  Just because Christians sin doesn't make it OK.

If God were to appear before you in person (or heal amputees or whatever it takes for you to believe), then He might as well have created computers.

This is a post and run, sorry, gotta be somewhere 10 minutes ago.  I do read a lot of these posts without responding if that helps.

I did so, sincerely after dealing with the senseless death of a friend. I asked for a very very very small miracle to show he existed. That miracle did not occur. Testing in the old testament doesn't count, and do you know why? Because there is no way to show me these "tests" aren't just legends themselves.

And I didn't "Post and run" so don't be a dick.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline One Above All

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2011, 04:59:25 AM »
@Everyone:
Sorry for the mistake regarding God versus Jesus. I forgot that not all denominations of christianity say that God=Jesus.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2011, 10:52:43 AM »
Invisible entities were tested in the Old Testament.  The Old Testament is like looking at the shadow.  The New Testament is looking at the man.  It's so difficult to compare or reconcile.  Paul (a Jew's Jew) tries and tries in the Epistles.  I am not going to test God.  You need to test God, Please do, sincerely.
Oh, I do love that caveat of one must do it “sincerely”.  Please do define “sincerely”, jtp.  I prayed and prayed for this god to help me when I was losing my faith.  Wasn’t that “sincerely” enough?  Should I stay up all night in the pumpkin patch?
and the post before this one
Quote
I can only speak from personal experience.  A Christian to me is someone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.  By that I mean a Christian is lead by the spirit, meaning obeying the Holy Spirit which dwells within their heart.  All actions (leading's) must be supported by the Bible.
And all Christians, no matter what they do, claim this exactly, that they know what God really wants by this “holy spirit”.  So, how can we tell who really heard the HS and who didn’t? And just because they disagree with your version isn’t much evidence. 
Quote
The threads on this site oftentimes talk about other religions based on the Old Testament or part of the Old Testament.  Paul talks about the Jews, Jesus talks about the false prophets.  But differentiating or discussing different cultures or behavior has nothing to do with one being a Christian or not.  Even in America smoking and drinking was OK for Christians at one time.  God forbid even a God hating atheist be caught smoking somewhere today.
Yes, and Paul is quite a dead ringer for one of those “false prophets” that JC warned about. Since being an atheist, that has always amused me.  And I can smoke in my house or one of a multitude of bars in the US.  You do need to get out more.
Quote
What behavior do Christians need to exhibit for you to believe?
  Well, if I am to accept the bible as a source of true claims then:
Quote
Mark 16: 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
and
Quote
John 14: 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
It seems pretty clear what followers of JC should be able to do.  I’d also hazard that you should also be able to do what Elijah did at the altar in his competition.  The question is, can you or any other self-claimed Christian do any of this?  From all evidence, it seems not.  If you or anyone can, then why don’t you?
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2011, 11:48:34 AM »
I can only speak from personal experience.  A Christian to me is someone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.  By that I mean a Christian is lead by the spirit, meaning obeying the Holy Spirit which dwells within their heart. 

What realistic and objective method of verification can be employed to determine whether or not the person claiming to have the H.S. "living" inside of them is correct verses being delusional?
You referenced the Bible and according to the NT texts, those that were filled with God's HS had signs that accompanied them which assisted in confirming that their message was in fact authentic and endorsed by God. Fun how those that claim that very same spirit today are unable to do the things the spirit reported was able to do in those of the 1st century.

Personally; and if this is offensive, I apologize for the offense while still standing behind my message; I believe (and even believed this as a Christian) that everyone that claims to be filled with the HS is lying to themselves and others.

What behavior do Christians need to exhibit for you to believe?

For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone, atheist or Christian that supposedly believes the scriptures would effect there to be Holy Spirit filled "TrueChristians" walking the Earth today! If you're an atheist, you don't buy the religious legends in the 1st palce, and if you are a believer that does know and buy the Bible then you must realize that Jesus and his followers never taught that a lasting "Christian/Bride of Christ" presence would be left dwelling on the Earth beyond the very generation that Jesus' initial audience was a part of! In other words, anyone not of the number that was alive in the 1st century has NO BUSINESS claiming that they are what those individuals were as it relates to Jesus! SO whether one is a believer or not, it's not hard to understand that the church as well a the religious ways it advocates and mandates for its membership are NOT affiliated with God or God's Anointed Spokesman from Nazareth. 

Offline jtp56

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2011, 05:53:06 PM »
I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it says life is gonna be easy.  That believers are just supposed to be walking around performing miracles and healing amputees and bringing peace to the world and spreading love and flowers.  Jesus said: "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it..."  He then goes on to warn you guys (atheists, agnostics, etc.) beware of religious people and their beliefs. 

My earlier post I answered on a personal level.  I am not speaking for all of Christianity.  I have disagreements with other believers.  There are web sites out there that go way deep into the Bible and argue things like Gods Sovereignty (How can He allow the "evil" that goes on if He is Sovereign like He says He is?), our total depravity yet He is mindful us (Being so Holy how can He even know about us?), Did He create evil? the devil, etc.  My question is why did He start this rodeo to begin with.

Anyway, our relationships with others are personal, so is a relationship with Christ.  It has nothing to do with "mandates" from supposed leaders.  I am free to do whatever I want, but, I wrestle with the Holy Spirit constantly to do the right thing.  I don't want to hurt the people I'm in a relationship with including Jesus.  God is no respecter of persons.  Everyone is equal in His eyes.

You know if the leading of the Spirit is from God if it is sync with the Bible.  The Bible is KEY!!  Feelings are useless.



Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Traveler

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2011, 06:31:35 PM »
To me, its anyone who says, "I'm a Christian".   I do not believe there to be one definition that fits all the different types.

This. I'm not even going to think about trying to tell others how to define "christian." If they claim the label, it's theirs.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2011, 06:33:57 PM »
If someone says they are a Christian, how about having them define and declare what they mean by that? I'd be interested in seeing what responses that line of questioning would generate.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2011, 06:38:08 PM »
I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it says life is gonna be easy.  That believers are just supposed to be walking around performing miracles and healing amputees and bringing peace to the world and spreading love and flowers.  Jesus said: "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it..."  He then goes on to warn you guys (atheists, agnostics, etc.) beware of religious people and their beliefs. 

Why didn't you finish quoting the scripture from Matthew 16:4 or was it Matthew 12:39 that you started quoting? In its entirety it reads:
Quote
Wicked and faithless generation!" He replied, "they clamour for a sign, but none shall be given to them except the sign of the Prophet Jonah. 40 For just as Jonah was three days in the sea-monster's belly, so will the Son of Man be three days in the heart of the earth.

 By stopping where you did and omitting the rest, what you did was make it seem as if Jesus said no sign would be given when in fact he said that a sign, a major one at that, would be given to that generation. That sign was the sign of the prophet Jonah and according to the text (that you omitted), the sign specifically was that Jesus would be in the heart of the earth dead and buried for 3 days and 3 nights only to rise again.

That's not exactly a "none shall be given it" kind of response jtp56.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:42:59 PM by Truth OT »

Offline Hatter23

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2011, 07:01:18 PM »

You know if the leading of the Spirit is from God if it is sync with the Bible.  The Bible is KEY!!  Feelings are useless.

Thanks for the circular definition.  You move from one impossible to measure item, feelings. To another subjective one. Once again showing, you have nothing.
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Offline kevinagain

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2011, 10:35:26 PM »

You know if the leading of the Spirit is from God if it is sync with the Bible.  The Bible is KEY!!  Feelings are useless.


so what you are saying is that christian scripture is the tool by which you judge the holy spirit?

most christians will maintain that the holy spirit is universal and unchanging. but there is no agreement on which ancient writings make up the bible, which recensions of them are correct, and what interpretations are valid.

if you use scripture to validate the holy spirit, which ones do you use? how do you distinguish an error in your interpretaion of scripture from a false leading?

Offline velkyn

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2011, 09:33:51 AM »
I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it says life is gonna be easy.  That believers are just supposed to be walking around performing miracles and healing amputees and bringing peace to the world and spreading love and flowers.  Jesus said: "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it..."  He then goes on to warn you guys (atheists, agnostics, etc.) beware of religious people and their beliefs.
No, there is no place that says that directly, but we do have a lot of places promising that God will take care if his sheep quite nicely.  I do wonder, jtp, if you think no one has actually read the bible.  Let’s look at some of those verses shall we?
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Matthew 6: 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?
   28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Funny how this god can’t actually do this.  and here’s one from the OT
Quote
Psalm 121: 7 The LORD will keep you from all harm—    he will watch over your life; 8 the LORD will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore.
  So, here’s two parts of the bible where is does indeed promise that God will make life easy for believers.   
It’s absolutely hilarious to see you try to excuse your inability to do what your god promised you could do.  We have two instances where your supposed savior says unequivocally that his followers can do certain things, that they aer indeed to be walking around doing miracles to demonstrate this god’s power.  And we all know that his followers *can’t”.  And yep, JC did say that people shouldn’t look for a sign,
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Matthew 12: 38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”  39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.
   43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
I do like this since it does underline how the claims of the bible fail since it claims a man can live in a fish, and that JC somehow goes to the “heart of the earth”. It also claims that after this sign, men in Nineveh will so something and some queen will so something.  So,what indeed did they do? The bible never gets around to showing that anything was done at all, and of course, there’s no evidence of any events  that would have been this sign anyway.  Not sure where you think it warns anyone about religious people and their beliefs.  I do know that it should since those people are often dangerous.
The problem for you is that JC also says that one should look for signs and accept those signs as evidence of what he claimed to be: 
Quote
John 10: 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
seems rather hypocritical to fuss about people wanting signs and then saying that these signs are what you should require and believe in.  We also have all sorts of signs in Acts, and oh yes, many many promised in Revelations, all again more of this god showing off to keep people believing. That is a problem now when this god can’t actually show it exists and Christians must run around claiming that “now” their god only wants faith.  Never was a problem before, in an ignorant time and place. 
Quote
My earlier post I answered on a personal level.  I am not speaking for all of Christianity.  I have disagreements with other believers.  There are web sites out there that go way deep into the Bible and argue things like Gods Sovereignty (How can He allow the "evil" that goes on if He is Sovereign like He says He is?), our total depravity yet He is mindful us (Being so Holy how can He even know about us?), Did He create evil? the devil, etc.  My question is why did He start this rodeo to begin with.
Yes, I know you disagree with other believers. Each Christian is certain that their version is the only “right” one.  Yep, there are a lot of apologetic websites out there.  Of course, you have no way to show that any of you are right at all.  [quoe]Anyway, our relationships with others are personal, so is a relationship with Christ.  It has nothing to do with "mandates" from supposed leaders.  I am free to do whatever I want, but, I wrestle with the Holy Spirit constantly to do the right thing.  I don't want to hurt the people I'm in a relationship with including Jesus.  God is no respecter of persons.  Everyone is equal in His eyes.[/quote] Every Christian also claims that they have a “relationship” with JC and that this holy spirit is what is telling them what to do.  And unsurprisingly, you all get different answers!  And interesting that you think you can hurt a supposedly omnipotent being.  It’s interesting that you again claim something that is so not supported by your bible at all. You did get it right in that God is no respecter of persons, as a character or as a existential being. However, there is nothing that says people are equal at all in his eyes. If that were true, then there would be no damning of people, no whimsical declaring some people saved and some not, and there would be no conditions on his supposed favor.

Quote
You know if the leading of the Spirit is from God if it is sync with the Bible.  The Bible is KEY!!  Feelings are useless.
Oh and how can we tell if it’s “in synch”?  Again, jtp, you make a lot of claims just like those other Christians you disagree with, and I’m sure they are sure that they are “in synch” with the bible too.  Pity you can’t do what your savior said you could so since we’d then know you were “right” with this god. Considering how much you ignore your bible when it’s inconvenient, it’s quite entertaining to see you claim that the bible is the “KEY!”. 
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2011, 04:18:05 PM »
Not only do denominations disagree (baptize? don't baptize? only baptize adults? baptize kids and babies too?) but individuals within churches disagree with each other (invite the gay nephew and his partner to Thanksgiving? send the gay nephew a wedding present? prevent the gay nephew from adopting kids?  stone the gay nephew to death?).

And then people come here to this site and tell us how easy it is to figure out exactly what god wants us to do. Just ask, read, attend, go, do, accept, this and this and this, and maybe that, or that. Then it will all become clear. Right.

None of them have any evidence that what they say is true. They can't even tell us for sure which god they are talking about.... :P

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2011, 04:20:31 PM »
Other:

Someone that says, "I am a Christian."
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Offline jtp56

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2011, 06:27:21 PM »
I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it says life is gonna be easy.  That believers are just supposed to be walking around performing miracles and healing amputees and bringing peace to the world and spreading love and flowers.  Jesus said: "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it..."  He then goes on to warn you guys (atheists, agnostics, etc.) beware of religious people and their beliefs. 

Why didn't you finish quoting the scripture from Matthew 16:4 or was it Matthew 12:39 that you started quoting? In its entirety it reads:
Quote
Wicked and faithless generation!" He replied, "they clamour for a sign, but none shall be given to them except the sign of the Prophet Jonah. 40 For just as Jonah was three days in the sea-monster's belly, so will the Son of Man be three days in the heart of the earth.

 By stopping where you did and omitting the rest, what you did was make it seem as if Jesus said no sign would be given when in fact he said that a sign, a major one at that, would be given to that generation. That sign was the sign of the prophet Jonah and according to the text (that you omitted), the sign specifically was that Jesus would be in the heart of the earth dead and buried for 3 days and 3 nights only to rise again.

That's not exactly a "none shall be given it" kind of response jtp56.

You won't accept the signs during the time of Jesus as credible evidence so I didn't go into it.  But, since you bring it up......Jesus was dead and rose again after the third day, Jonah was a shadow of that.  That's the sign your talking about.  We (Christians) have an irreconcilable different definition of death vs. your understanding of it.  To the Christian, death is separation from God, period.  And the way Jesus explains it that place is located in the heart of the earth.  To you, death is ceasing to exist.  The Bible is a book written by a Spirit to Spirit beings or those who have the Spirit - whatever.  Read John Chapter 3.  But you need to ask God to speak to you during that time.  See why I stopped where I did?   
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2011, 07:03:56 PM »
I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it says life is gonna be easy.  That believers are just supposed to be walking around performing miracles and healing amputees and bringing peace to the world and spreading love and flowers.  Jesus said: "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it..."  He then goes on to warn you guys (atheists, agnostics, etc.) beware of religious people and their beliefs.
No, there is no place that says that directly, but we do have a lot of places promising that God will take care if his sheep quite nicely.  I do wonder, jtp, if you think no one has actually read the bible.  Let’s look at some of those verses shall we?
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Matthew 6: 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?
   28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Funny how this god can’t actually do this.  and here’s one from the OT
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Psalm 121: 7 The LORD will keep you from all harm—    he will watch over your life; 8 the LORD will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore.
  So, here’s two parts of the bible where is does indeed promise that God will make life easy for believers.   
It’s absolutely hilarious to see you try to excuse your inability to do what your god promised you could do.  We have two instances where your supposed savior says unequivocally that his followers can do certain things, that they aer indeed to be walking around doing miracles to demonstrate this god’s power.  And we all know that his followers *can’t”.  And yep, JC did say that people shouldn’t look for a sign,
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Matthew 12: 38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”  39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.
   43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
I do like this since it does underline how the claims of the bible fail since it claims a man can live in a fish, and that JC somehow goes to the “heart of the earth”. It also claims that after this sign, men in Nineveh will so something and some queen will so something.  So,what indeed did they do? The bible never gets around to showing that anything was done at all, and of course, there’s no evidence of any events  that would have been this sign anyway.  Not sure where you think it warns anyone about religious people and their beliefs.  I do know that it should since those people are often dangerous.
The problem for you is that JC also says that one should look for signs and accept those signs as evidence of what he claimed to be: 
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John 10: 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
seems rather hypocritical to fuss about people wanting signs and then saying that these signs are what you should require and believe in.  We also have all sorts of signs in Acts, and oh yes, many many promised in Revelations, all again more of this god showing off to keep people believing. That is a problem now when this god can’t actually show it exists and Christians must run around claiming that “now” their god only wants faith.  Never was a problem before, in an ignorant time and place. 
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My earlier post I answered on a personal level.  I am not speaking for all of Christianity.  I have disagreements with other believers.  There are web sites out there that go way deep into the Bible and argue things like Gods Sovereignty (How can He allow the "evil" that goes on if He is Sovereign like He says He is?), our total depravity yet He is mindful us (Being so Holy how can He even know about us?), Did He create evil? the devil, etc.  My question is why did He start this rodeo to begin with.
Yes, I know you disagree with other believers. Each Christian is certain that their version is the only “right” one.  Yep, there are a lot of apologetic websites out there.  Of course, you have no way to show that any of you are right at all.  [quoe]Anyway, our relationships with others are personal, so is a relationship with Christ.  It has nothing to do with "mandates" from supposed leaders.  I am free to do whatever I want, but, I wrestle with the Holy Spirit constantly to do the right thing.  I don't want to hurt the people I'm in a relationship with including Jesus.  God is no respecter of persons.  Everyone is equal in His eyes.
Every Christian also claims that they have a “relationship” with JC and that this holy spirit is what is telling them what to do.  And unsurprisingly, you all get different answers!  And interesting that you think you can hurt a supposedly omnipotent being.  It’s interesting that you again claim something that is so not supported by your bible at all. You did get it right in that God is no respecter of persons, as a character or as a existential being. However, there is nothing that says people are equal at all in his eyes. If that were true, then there would be no damning of people, no whimsical declaring some people saved and some not, and there would be no conditions on his supposed favor.

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You know if the leading of the Spirit is from God if it is sync with the Bible.  The Bible is KEY!!  Feelings are useless.
Oh and how can we tell if it’s “in synch”?  Again, jtp, you make a lot of claims just like those other Christians you disagree with, and I’m sure they are sure that they are “in synch” with the bible too.  Pity you can’t do what your savior said you could so since we’d then know you were “right” with this god. Considering how much you ignore your bible when it’s inconvenient, it’s quite entertaining to see you claim that the bible is the “KEY!”.
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Again, God is a Spirit talking to Spiritual beings.  Paul rejoiced when beaten and falsely imprisoned.  Jesus cried out for God to have mercy on those killing Him as He died.  Today, new believers in the most hideous places on earth prefer to stay in squalor to minister rather than live in America.  We don't live by bread alone or give thought to what we'll wear tomorrow.  We welcome death like Paul did, but realize we are to stay here trying to do His will as best we can.  If we measure blessings or the Biblical promises by your definition of wealth or well being, the Bible is a lie.  I don't understand your comment after you quote Matthew 6:25-34.

The changes in Nineveh and throughout the Bible are peoples hearts.  Status or well being has nothing to do with it.

Yes, Christians do have wildly different views about the Bible.  Take for example Calvinism vs. Armenianism, great debates here.  But the one thing they all agree on and can worship together about is that Jesus is the Christ, Son of God, Himself God, who died and rose again from the dead.  Salvation is so simple; "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".  The rest is for blog sites.

How can we all agree on something that is so far beyond our understanding.  It's like ants getting together to analyze humans.  Even this comparison falls short.  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.  It's so simple, don't wear a hole in your forehead, don't give all your money away; our works are as filthy rags, only believe.

And looking for miracles from today's believers for a sign (healed amputee) or proof is not wise, it'll never happen.  Jesus said the things He did we will do.  Even Jesus couldn't heal people in His home town, I can't either!  Hey look...I'm doing what Jesus did.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2011, 07:16:14 PM »


Again, God is a Spirit talking to Spiritual beings.  Paul rejoiced when beaten and falsely imprisoned.  Jesus cried out for God to have mercy on those killing Him as He died.  Today, new believers in the most hideous places on earth prefer to stay in squalor to minister rather than live in America.  We don't live by bread alone or give thought to what we'll wear tomorrow.  We welcome death like Paul did, but realize we are to stay here trying to do His will as best we can.  If we measure blessings or the Biblical promises by your definition of wealth or well being, the Bible is a lie.  I don't understand your comment after you quote Matthew 6:25-34.

The changes in Nineveh and throughout the Bible are peoples hearts.  Status or well being has nothing to do with it.

Which still puts "in synch" down to personal judgment, again. Not a reliable measure since it varies wildly from person to person, sect to sect, religion to religion

Yes, Christians do have wildly different views about the Bible.  Take for example Calvinism vs. Armenianism, great debates here.  But the one thing they all agree on and can worship together about is that Jesus is the Christ, Son of God, Himself God, who died and rose again from the dead.  Salvation is so simple; "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".  The rest is for blog sites.

How can we all agree on something that is so far beyond our understanding.  It's like ants getting together to analyze humans.  Even this comparison falls short.  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.  It's so simple, don't wear a hole in your forehead, don't give all your money away; our works are as filthy rags, only believe.

And looking for miracles from today's believers for a sign (healed amputee) or proof is not wise, it'll never happen.  Jesus said the things He did we will do.  Even Jesus couldn't heal people in His home town, I can't either!  Hey look...I'm doing what Jesus did.

Ah yes the ant analogy. What Christians never get is they are the ant who declares that they have to one true understanding of human, well except that ants can actually walk on humans, bite them, dwell in their houses, eat their garbage, etc.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jtp56

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2011, 07:26:46 PM »
I'll agree with you Hatter, the "in synch" doesn't always work.  Christians blow it all the time.  I can go with your analysis that it could be left to personal judgment and that it is not a reliable measure.  That's why Christians are doing such a bad job today.  To bad they and I aren't "in synch", for everyone's sake.

I didn't quite get your ant argument.  God has the understanding of humans, He created them.  Believe me, I don't understand my wife and she's human.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2011, 10:03:29 PM »
I'll agree with you Hatter, the "in synch" doesn't always work.  Christians blow it all the time.  I can go with your analysis that it could be left to personal judgment and that it is not a reliable measure.  That's why Christians are doing such a bad job today.  To bad they and I aren't "in synch", for everyone's sake.

No,you stated Christian could be only be considered christian if they were filled with the holy spirit. Then, the question is "how can you tell they meet that criterion" you then stated they had to be living "In synch" with the scripture...which once again is a very nebulous criterion after all, should they not be like the pharisees and pray conspicuously, or should they not hide the light under a basket...two admonishments, proscriptions really saying the opposite things. The scriptures are full of them, from honoring your father and mother, to hating your father and mother...to being like the good Samaritan, to "not a jot or title" of the law shall change.




I didn't quite get your ant argument.  God has the understanding of humans, He created them.  Believe me, I don't understand my wife and she's human.

You stated man cannot comprehend God any more than an ant can comprehend man. I state that, first, an ant can actually intact with man on a limited basis...confirm man's existence...even though man's way, purposes and desires are beyond an ant's comprehension. But Religion does quite the opposite...it cannot even show God's existence, but states whats God ways, purpose, and desires in very human terms. That is why I am tired of hearing the ant analogy...there is no analogy.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2011, 09:44:27 AM »
Again, God is a Spirit talking to Spiritual beings.  Paul rejoiced when beaten and falsely imprisoned.  Jesus cried out for God to have mercy on those killing Him as He died.  Today, new believers in the most hideous places on earth prefer to stay in squalor to minister rather than live in America.  We don't live by bread alone or give thought to what we'll wear tomorrow.  We welcome death like Paul did, but realize we are to stay here trying to do His will as best we can.  If we measure blessings or the Biblical promises by your definition of wealth or well being, the Bible is a lie.  I don't understand your comment after you quote Matthew 6:25-34.
Oh, now you want to change your story and claim that God is only taling to “spiritual beings” &)    I do enjoy seeing you change your story again and again in your attempts to ignore your bible and what it says clearly.  So much for your so called faith and belief in it.  You only do that when it’s convenient for you.  How typical.   And I find it such bullshit that any Christian “welcomes death” hilarious.  It’s cute to see you as fast as possible then claim that you really need to stay her on earth.  As I’ve asked other Christians, then why don’t I see you cleaning up land mines, volunterring to clean up radioactive sites like the brave old men in Japan, etc?  And for a God being a spirit, it’s amusing that he walks, has a backside, buries men, etc.

I’m not surprised at all that you claim you can’t understand my comment after quoting Matthew 6:25-34.  You see, jtp, your supposed savior in those verses is talking about how great that God is for taking care of people better than anything else in his creation.  Real physical people and not some made up “spiritual beings” that modern Christians have to add to the bible so they can make a primitive book make some sort of sense.  My comment “Funny how this god can’t actually do this.  and here’s one from the OT” is the observation, born out by much evidence, that your god doesn’t take care of people in any special way at all, that this claim by the imaginary Jesus Christ “26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?” is such garbage since this god obviously doesn’t feed everyone.  People starve every day, even people who Christians have converted.  The usual excuse for this god is that this god wants people to take care of themselves, etc etc, and here, we have JC saying that you don’t have to work, but just trust in this god.  How many Christians do this, jtp? Do you trust your god or not?  I’d recommend not. 
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The changes in Nineveh and throughout the Bible are peoples hearts.  Status or well being has nothing to do with it.
Evidence for this, not your desperate baseless claims, jtp.  It says nothing about people’s hearts.  Let’s look at it again so we can see your ridiculous claim and what it really says
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39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.
  Where’s this queen in “this generation”?  Funny how there is nothing to support your “it’s in people’s hearts” nonsense.

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Yes, Christians do have wildly different views about the Bible.  Take for example Calvinism vs. Armenianism, great debates here.  But the one thing they all agree on and can worship together about is that Jesus is the Christ, Son of God, Himself God, who died and rose again from the dead.  Salvation is so simple; "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".  The rest is for blog sites.
Yep, great debates on whether there is predestination or not, whether Jesus was divine or not.  Many debates on how to be saved and the process to do it.  It’s so hilarious that you try to claim that “salvation is so simple”. Sadly, you seem to be unaware of your own bible.  No, that’s not the only way that Christians claim that one is saved.  We have John 3 that does indeed believe and be saved (must such when you are baby or mentally incompentent, since this doesn’tn work for you, and darn that JC didn’t provide for any other method, if this is the only way).  We also have that God’s grace is the only thing that saves and God gives that out on his whim, intending some people to never ever understand and believe.  We also have that works might be the only way, when JC talks about separating the sheep and goats (believe all you want, but don’t take care of your fellow man and you lose). We also have Paul saying that women are only saved if they have a child.  You are wrong again, jtp. I would suggest actually reading your bible rather than spewing what you’ve been told.
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How can we all agree on something that is so far beyond our understanding.  It's like ants getting together to analyze humans.  Even this comparison falls short.  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.  It's so simple, don't wear a hole in your forehead, don't give all your money away; our works are as filthy rags, only believe.
and here we have again the convneint claim of “how can we understand god” always pulled out when the hard questions are asked.  Funny how Christians claim to understand god all of the time when they want to.  And I do enjoy how you directly ignore what your savior says.  Indeed he does say give all of your money away, if one wants to be perfect and to join him.  We have the young man askin what he needs to do to receive eternal life. JC lists follow the commandments, give up your wealth and follow me.  The apostles reply that they have indeed done *all* of this and JC confirms that they will get their reward.   Matthew 19 you know.
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And looking for miracles from today's believers for a sign (healed amputee) or proof is not wise, it'll never happen.  Jesus said the things He did we will do.  Even Jesus couldn't heal people in His home town, I can't either!  Hey look...I'm doing what Jesus did.
I know it’ll will never happen. But that’s not what your bible promises. So, is it wrong? And it’s hilarious that your supposed omnipotent savior can’t perform in his home town, just like charlatan who tries to lie to people who know him.  So, dear jtp, why not go to another town and do these miracles?   Ah, what is your excuse now? How sweetly pathetic.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2011, 06:01:37 PM »
You won't accept the signs during the time of Jesus as credible evidence so I didn't go into it.  But, since you bring it up......Jesus was dead and rose again after the third day, Jonah was a shadow of that.  That's the sign your talking about.  We (Christians) have an irreconcilable different definition of death vs. your understanding of it.  To the Christian, death is separation from God, period.  And the way Jesus explains it that place is located in the heart of the earth.  To you, death is ceasing to exist.  The Bible is a book written by a Spirit to Spirit beings or those who have the Spirit - whatever.  Read John Chapter 3.  But you need to ask God to speak to you during that time.  See why I stopped where I did?

No, you and those in your sect of Christendom have such a definition. Many other Christians do not. Talk to an Adventist or a member of the Church of God sometime and you'll discover that not all Christians redefine death as you do to fit your preconception about it. So no matter what your definition of death is, in the real world and in the Bible, death is a reference to the cessation of life. Don't you get that "the heart of the Earth" that you referenced is.......um, THE GRAVE?

As far as me accepting the signs of Jesus as credible evidence, I would accept them if I witnessed them or a credible source that I could trust were to verify them for me. Being convinced and convicted of something is not the same as knowing that that something is true...............

Offline composer

Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2011, 07:08:30 PM »
@Everyone:
Sorry for the mistake regarding God versus Jesus. I forgot that not all denominations of christianity say that God=Jesus.
I know of at least two that don't!

Christ Adelphians & Jehovah's Witnesses!



Offline used to believe

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2011, 07:20:42 PM »
And you just GOTTA love what they did to Job,, poor guy was wracked with boils,, watched his family get crushed, beaten and killed,, just to see if he would curse God,, which he didnt, so in the end,, he gets all these rewards,, hell even his wife told him to forsake God,, wonder if he bitch slapped her,, after he won the cosmic lottery,, oh wait,, he hung hiself shortly after he found out his family was pushing up daisys,, thanks God,,

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Re: What is a christian to you?
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2011, 08:42:55 PM »

You know if the leading of the Spirit is from God if it is sync with the Bible.  The Bible is KEY!!  Feelings are useless.


so what you are saying is that christian scripture is the tool by which you judge the holy spirit?

most christians will maintain that the holy spirit is universal and unchanging. but there is no agreement on which ancient writings make up the bible, which recensions of them are correct, and what interpretations are valid.

if you use scripture to validate the holy spirit, which ones do you use? how do you distinguish an error in your interpretaion of scripture from a false leading?

hi, jtp56

no offense, but i haven't had a response to my question yet. you're under no obligation to respond, but i'd just as soon make sure that it's because you choose not to, and not because it was overlooked.

in case i don't hear from you, have a merry christmas, and god bless you and yours.

in christ,

kevin