Author Topic: 9-11 conspiracy theory  (Read 2741 times)

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Offline YY

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Re: 9-11 conspiracy theory
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2011, 08:43:59 AM »
AluminothermicWiki isn't a reference to an explosion, it's a reference to an exothermic reaction (albeit one that requires a relatively high energy start-up cost).  It's used in metallurgy, such as when welding rail tracks or copper wire.  I found this out in thirty seconds by using Google.  Seriously, didn't you look it up?

The fact that any 9/11 conspiracy theorist could seriously suggest that aluminothermite was used as an explosive can only prove that said 9/11 conspiracy theorist hasn't even attempted to independently and seriously research the subject for themselves.

Seriously, look up "aluminothermic" by itself on Google, and you get page after page of references to welding techniques.  Look up "aluminothermic nanocomposite", and you get page after page of conspiracy theorists claiming that it was used to cause a "controlled demolition" of the WTC buildings (though some of the more sensible ones don't actually try to claim it was an explosion).  Of course serious researchers haven't taken the possibility into account, because there is no such thing as an "aluminothermic nanocomposite explosive".  For that matter, I'm sure there are more effective means of creating a controlled demolition than using an incendiary reaction with such a small area-of-effect.

This goes way beyond welding. I've taken excerpts from an essay that urges you to read a full scientific paper on this topic. To make it even quicker, I've highlighted so you can just read the parts in red.

Quote
Aluminothermics 101 taken from http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosive_residues.html
 
Aluminothermic reactions are a class of energy-releasing oxidation-reduction chemical reactions in which elemental aluminum reduces a compound, typically by stealing the oxygen from a metal oxide. Aluminothermics range from low-tech preparations that take seconds to react and therefore release nearly all their energy as heat and light, to advanced engineered materials with accelerated reaction rates that yield explosive powers similar to conventional high explosives.

Backers of the official account of 9/11, including NIST officials, have dismissed evidence that aluminothermics were used to destroy the World Trade Center skyscrapers, claiming that thermite's slow reaction rate makes it an unsuitable tool for demolishing buildings. Despite repeated requests by scientists and researchers to address the potential role of advanced aluminothermic composites with high explosive power, officials have refused to acknowledge such materials.

Because oxygen atoms bind more tightly to aluminum atoms than to iron or copper atoms, the reaction releases large amounts of energy and is described as highly exothermic. Whereas primitive thermite preparations release most of their energy as heat, modern preparations, such as found in munitions employed by the US military in recent decades, produce a targeted mix of heat and pressure through an accelerated but controlled reaction rate and the addition of pressure-generating compounds such as hydrocarbons.

Whereas a cup of conventional thermite will melt a hole clear through a car's engine block, the same quantity of a nano-thermite composite explosive will blow the car apart.

The term 'nano-thermite' applied to the unignited thermitic material discovered in World Trade Center dust is potentially misleading because it doesn't capture the complexity and sophistication of this material or its known analogs. Perhaps a better term is energetic nanocomposites, a class of materials that has been used by the military for some time in applications spanning propellants, armor-piercing munitions, and reactive armor.

The mixing [of ultra fine grain (UFG) aluminum and UFG metal oxides] is accomplished by adding these reactants to a liquid solution where they form what are called "sols", and then adding a gelling agent that captures these tiny reactive combinations in their intimately mixed state (LLNL 2000). The resulting "sol-gel" is then dried to form a porous reactive material that can be ignited in a number of ways.

Energetic materials such as aluminothermic sol-gels have been an active area of research in the US national labs since the mid-1990s or earlier, including under the auspices of NIST itself -- a fact documented by Kevin Ryan in his extensively footnoted article The Top Ten Connections Between NIST and Nano-Thermites.

[color]It's also not difficult to find recent published papers on methods of reliably igniting such materials with minute low-power devices described as MEMS (microelectromechanical systems) and manufactured much like conventional integrated circuits.[/color] 

The discovery of unexploded super-thermite in the WTC dust augments a large body of evidence pointing to the use of aluminothermic materials in the destruction of the skyscrapers. The present review looks only at the evidence of explosives found in the dust and debris expelled from the Twin Towers.

Even before WTC dust was subjected to the kind of microscopic scrutiny described in Active Thermitic Material Discovered, several features of the dust analysis published by the USGS pointed to the use of aluminothermics. For example, the USGS data shows high levels of barium -- a fact that is difficult to explain, barring pyrotechnics. The high levels of iron and aluminum in the dust -- each ranging from 1.3 to 4.1 percent of the dust samples by weight -- also appears anomalous, although prosaic sources of the metals can be imagined.

Micro-spheroidal particles in WTC dust consisting mostly of iron were documented in at least two scientific reports by 2005: a compilation of data by the USGS and a report for the owners of a skyscraper adjacent to the World Trade Center complex that sustained heavy damage in the attack

The inescapable fact is that these spheroidal droplets in the WTC dust look exactly like the products of the combustion of nano-thermite explosives, and their discovery in consistently substantial concentrations in diverse samples of dust from the day of the attack weighs heavily against theories that they were generated by something other than the Twin Towers' destruction. Elemental analysis of these droplets described below would show that they are dead ringers for known aluminothermic residues.

After addressing arguments that the iron-rich droplets could have been produced by the rubble pile or clean-up operation -- the dust samples were collected too early and were too distant from the site to have been thus contaminated

If finding aluminothermic residues in the form of spheroidal micro-droplets was like finding fired bullets at a crime scene, then the discoveries presented in Active Thermitic Material Discovered are like finding the gun loaded with several rounds of unspent ammunition that match the fired bullets.

Chips having distinctive and similar physical features were found in ... dust samples, ranging in length from from about 0.2 to 3 mm. Each chip has stratified layers of two types: a red layer and a lighter gray layer, where each layer is between roughly 10 and 100 microns in thickness. Despite their small size, the chips are readily visible in the samples because of their flat shapes, distinctive color, and layered structure. The chips are tough despite being as thin as eggshells.

. . . the chips are clearly a nano-engineered material with two types of extremely small particles, each highly consistent in shape and size, held in close stable proximity by a durable matrix which is laminated to a hard homogeneous material. The student of energetic materials will appreciate that this description matches exactly that of a super-thermite in which the reactant particles are suspended in a sol-gel matrix applied to a substrate.

The structural and chemical analysis of the chips shows that, in every relevant aspect, they fit the description of an engineered thermitic nanocomposite. This prompts the obvious question: do the chips have the thermal characteristics of an explosive aluminothermic material?

Although it might be difficult or impossible to measure the explosive power of the chips, given their minute size, it is possible to measure their exothermic behavior and thereby calculate their energy density using a differential scanning calorimeter (DSC), a device that gradually increases the temperature of a sample and records the amount of heat it absorbs or emits as a function of temperature.

DSC traces of energetic materials such as incendiaries and explosives have a characteristic shape that remains near zero up to a certain temperature range -- the ignition temperature -- and thereafter spikes sharply upward. The energy density of the material can be estimated by calculating the area under the curve.

Chips from each of the four samples, when subjected to thermal analysis using the DSC, clearly show the exothermic behavior of an energetic material



Offline velkyn

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Re: 9-11 conspiracy theory
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2011, 09:14:04 AM »
ah, that elusive "super thermite".   &)   We have claims that this is all from some "scientific" paper, but the only publisher of it is a source, the Open Chemical Physics Journal, which appears to have no peer review and evidently doesn't want to be associated with such nonsense since they've removed the "paper" from their site, http://benthamscience.com/open/topcj/openaccess2.htm .

interesting article about the "researchers" for this nonsense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones#WTC_destruction_controversy

Of course, this will all fuel YY's claims of martyrdom. 

we have even recently more hypotheses on how this happened: http://www.sintef.no/home/Press-Room/Research-News/New-theory-explains-collapse-of-Twin-Towers/ 

Now, one thing that Mr. Simensen, a materials scientist, has said is that we can test his hypothesis.  We should be able to test the "nanoaluminum" as explosive hypothesis too.  Has that been done?  It doesnt' seem to be so and all other research indicates that "nano-aluminum" does nothing as described by 9/11 conpsiracy theorists.  The avoidance of even bench tests by the conspiracy community seems to be rather curious. 
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Offline YY

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Re: 9-11 conspiracy theory
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2011, 09:14:57 AM »
Wow, conspiracy theorist still exist? here a link. you might want to read before you make your self a bigger fool

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

The age of photo shop and people with undeniable evidence :P

excerpts taken from http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/explosives_evidence_timeline.html

The NIST investigation, having posted its Final Report with its absurd Building 7 joint-breaking-thermal-expansion theory in late 2008 and FAQ by Christmas, closed its doors before the independent researchers published their findings of active aluminothermic materials in WTC dust in a mainstream scientific journal; but not before they publicized findings of aluminothermic residues in the same dust samples; and not before they extracted from NIST a series of public statements, in press conferences and in written responses to requests for correction (RFCs), about the conduct of their inquiry into the cause of the skyscrapers' total destruction.

Quote
ABEL: ... what about that letter where NIST said it didn't look for evidence of explosives?
NEWMAN: Right, because there was no evidence of that.
ABEL: But how can you know there's no evidence if you don't look for it first?
NEWMAN: If you're looking for something that isn't there, you're wasting your time....

--Conversation between a reporter and a NIST spokesperson. source

As a result, NIST spokespersons are on the record saying they did not test for pyrotechnics, and offering rationales for failing to perform such tests. Those rationale -- or rationalizations -- summarized toward the end of this essay, include the assertion that testing for pyrotechnics "would not necessarily have been conclusive". That is partially true: failing to find pyrotechnic residues wouldn't rule out demolition, since demolition might have been implemented using an untraceable fuel such as hydrogen gas. But finding abundant and distributed pyrotechnic explosive residues would conclusively favor demolition -- particularly given the persuasive deductive arguments showing that the features of the buildings' destruction are incompatable with a purely gravity-driven collapse


Quote
Following his talk on NIST's then-ongoing investigation, speaker John Gross was questioned about the reports of molten metal. In the following exchange, Gross pleads ignorance of the reports.

QUESTIONER: I'm curious about, um, the pool of molten steel, that was found in the bottom of the towers.

GROSS: Please tell me about it. Have you seen it?

 
QUESTIONER: Not personally, but eyewitnesses there found huge pools of molten steel beneath the towers, and ah, scientists, some scientists don't think that the collapse of the buildings could have melted all that steel, and a physics professor analyzed some of that steel, Steven Jones, and he found evidence of, a, thermate residues which would have explained how the buildings collapsed by means of pre-planted explosives. So, have you analyzed the steel for those residues?

GROSS: First of all, let's go back to your basic premise that there was, ah, a pool of molten steel. I know absolutely nobody, no eyewitnesses have said so, nobody whose produced it. I was on the site, I was on the steelyards, so, I don't know that that's so. Steel melts at about two thousand six hundred degrees Fahrenheit. Um, I think it's pretty difficult to get that kind of temperatures in, ah, fire. So, I don't know the basis -- I can't address your question if I don't know the basis.

QUESTIONER: Well NASA pictures, ah, thermal imaging show those sorts of temperatures.

GROSS: Would you send them to me?

QUESTIONER: OK.

The reports of molten metal are numerous and were made by some of Gross' own colleagues, and the NASA thermal images that Gross implied he'd never seen have been featured on the USGS.gov website since 2001.



The Top Ten Connections Between NIST and Nano-Thermites

1. NIST was working with LLNL to test and characterize these sol-gel nano-thermites, at least as early as 1999 (Tillotson et al 1999).

2. Forman Williams, the lead engineer on NIST’s advisory committee, and the most prominent engineering expert for Popular Mechanics, is an expert on the deflagration of energetic materials and the “ignition of porous energetic materials”

3. Science Applications International (SAIC) is the DOD and Homeland Security contractor that supplied the largest contingent of non-governmental investigators to the NIST WTC investigation. SAIC has extensive links to nano-thermites, developing and judging nano-thermite research proposals for the military and other military contractors, and developing and formulating nano-thermites directly (Army 2008, DOD 2007). SAIC’s subsidiary Applied Ordnance Technology has done research on the ignition of nanothermites with lasers (Howard et al 2005).

In an interesting coincidence, SAIC was the firm that investigated the 1993 WTC bombing, boasting that -- “After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, our blast analyses produced tangible results that helped identify those responsible (SAIC 2004).” And the coincidences with this company don’t stop there, as SAIC was responsible for evaluating the WTC for terrorism risks in 1986 as well (CRHC 2008). SAIC is also linked to the late 1990s security upgrades at the WTC, the Rudy Giuliani administration, and the anthrax incidents after 9/11, through former employees Jerome Hauer and Steven Hatfill.

4. Arden Bement, the metallurgist and expert on fuels and materials who was nominated as director of NIST by President George W. Bush in October 2001, was former deputy secretary of defense, former director of DARPA’s office of materials science, and former executive at TRW.

Of course, DOD and DARPA are both leaders in the production and use of nano-thermites (Amptiac 2002, DOD 2005). And military and aerospace contractor TRW has had a long collaboration with NASA laboratories in the development of energetic materials that are components of advanced propellants, like nano-gelled explosive materials (NASA 2001). TRW Aeronautics also made fireproof composites and high performance elastomer formulations, and worked with NASA to make energetic aerogels.

5. Hratch Semerjian, long-time director of NIST’s chemical division, was promoted to acting director of NIST in November 2004, and took over the WTC investigation until the completion of the report on the towers.

6. NIST has a long-standing partnership with NASA for the development of new nano-thermites and other nano-technological materials. In fact, Michael Zachariah coordinates this partnership (CNMM 2008).

7. In 2003, two years before the NIST WTC report was issued, the University of Maryland College Park (UMCP) and NIST signed a memorandum of understanding to develop nano-technologies like nano-thermites (NIST 2003). Together, NIST and UMCP have done much work on nano-thermites (NM2 2008).

8. NIST has their own Center for Nanoscale Science and Technology (CNST 2008). Additionally, NIST’s Reactive Flows Group did research on nanostructured materials and high temperature reactions in the mid-nineties (NRFG 1996).

9. Richard Gann, who did the final editing of the NIST WTC report, managed a project called “Next-Generation Fire Suppression Technology Program”, both before and after 9/11. Andrzej Miziolek, another of the world’s leading experts on nano-thermites (Amptiac 2002), is the author of “Defense Applications of Nanomaterials”, and also worked on Richard Gann’s fire suppression project (Gann 2002).

10. As part of the Federal Laboratory Consortium for Technology Transfer, NIST partners with the Naval Surface Warfare Center at Indian Head (NSWC-IH) on Chemical Science and Technology (FLCTT 2008). NSWC-IH is probably the most prominent US center for nano-thermite technology (NSWC 2008). In 1999, Jan Puszynski, a scientist working for the DURINT program, helped NSWC-IH design a pilot plant to produce nano-size aluminum powder. It was reported that “At that time, this was [the] only reliable source of aluminum nanopowders in the United States”


Molten metal? What molten metal?

NIST, in its final report on WTC 7, ignored all of the evidence relating to molten metal, even though numerous reliable witnesses spoke of the presence of molten metal at Ground Zero. These witnesses included Richard Garlock, a structural engineer at Leslie E. Robertson Associates, an engineering firm involved in the design of the towers and the clean up of the site, who said "Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running." 10

The witnesses to molten metal also included University of California, Berkeley engineering professor Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, who was the first scientist given access to the steel at ground zero. Dr. Astaneh-Asl referred to the WTC steel he found as "kind of melted. " 11 Years later, when asked again about his experience he clarified, "I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center." 12

There are many other reports of molten metal at ground zero, including quite a few from those who support the Bush Administration's ever-changing fire-induced collapse theories. There are also photos supporting the reports of molten metal. 13 But NIST continues to ignore all of this evidence in its new report.

Paper thin steel and sulfidation? What paper thin steel and sulfidation?

Since the WTC report from the Federal Emergency Management Administration (FEMA) came out in 2002, the most intriguing aspect of the official stories given was the problem that the New York Times called "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." 14 This mystery referred to the extremely thinned pieces of steel discovered by FEMA investigators, and also by Astaneh-Asl. 15 These samples were found to exhibit sulfidation, and evidence of a eutectic formation, that could not be explained by any of the "fire-wise" professors.

...
Sivaraj Shyam Sunder did have to answer a question about [ the sulfidated steel discovered by FEMA ] in his recent press conference. Sunder simply said that those fire-wise professors had thought more about it, and told the BBC that it wasn't a mystery after all.

We can be sure that those professors did think more about it. But without the detailed study they originally called for, the deepest mystery remains officially unsolved.

Explosive thermite? What explosive thermite?

An actual explanation for the sulfidation and extreme thinning of steel has been offered by independent investigators, and is fully consistent with the alternative theory that NIST has avoided all these years.
...

When asked about thermite in the WTC 7 press conference, Sunder pretended that NIST was not aware of the explosive forms of this chemical mixture, called super-thermite or nano-thermite. Instead, Sunder claimed that thermite could not be applied adequately in order to serve the purpose of a deceptive demolition. Sunder's answer, apart from being vague and unsupported, is also in direct contradiction to the fact that a number of the NIST WTC investigation leaders had expert knowledge of nano-thermites, and that such materials can be sprayed onto surfaces like steel. 

When presented with evidence of explosives, NIST has done the opposite of investigating: It has denied, evaded, changed the subject, and produced straw-man arguments. The message is clear: don't be troubled by those pesky facts like explosives residues -- Sunder and his team of experts have what you need. "It's simple, straightforward, it's elegant, technical," and they're "comfortable with it".

Sunder's final remarks to the 2008 press conference wraps a blanket disqualification of "alternative theories" as incredible in a transparent appeal to authority:


Offline YY

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Re: 9-11 conspiracy theory
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2011, 09:31:56 AM »
ah, that elusive "super thermite".   &)   We have claims that this is all from some "scientific" paper, but the only publisher of it is a source, the Open Chemical Physics Journal, which appears to have no peer review and evidently doesn't want to be associated with such nonsense since they've removed the "paper" from their site, http://benthamscience.com/open/topcj/openaccess2.htm .

Not sure what you're talking about. I just downloaded. But in the future, try to use the correct link http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

Are you proposing that no further investigation is necessary?

Offline YY

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Re: 9-11 conspiracy theory
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2011, 09:36:35 AM »
PS - I don't just blame bankers for our current financial collapse. The blame goes around to everybody. We (meaning govt., bankers, securities traders, mgt. companies, certain individuals) all had a part to play in this mess.

Wow, you really have got your shit together on this.

Which one of "we" are you? Please don't disappoint me with you're being a "certain individual", then you'd need to give me a hint so I could recognise who I'm so lucky to be talking to. I just love when the big guys come on this site and take credit for the big stuff, just sorta have a bit of a chin wag about the BIG issues, educate us plebs... and being part of the American financial crisis is right up there!

Please speak english. I don't understand a word of what you're trying to say.

And our American financial crisis will touch its sticky fingers on your bangers and pints. So don't act like it's isolated to just us Yanks "across the pond".

Offline velkyn

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Re: 9-11 conspiracy theory
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2011, 10:37:04 AM »
ah, that elusive "super thermite".   &)   We have claims that this is all from some "scientific" paper, but the only publisher of it is a source, the Open Chemical Physics Journal, which appears to have no peer review and evidently doesn't want to be associated with such nonsense since they've removed the "paper" from their site, http://benthamscience.com/open/topcj/openaccess2.htm .

Not sure what you're talking about. I just downloaded. But in the future, try to use the correct link http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

Are you proposing that no further investigation is necessary?

cool, it is on the site. My mistake.  Again, is this peer -reviewed?  Has any objective data been run on these claims?

And no, YY, I am not proposing that no further investigation is necessary.  I am indeed saying it does need to be done since bench tests would go a ways to showing if the claims by both sides are even possible.  I don't see that any have been done by those who would benefit most, those who claim a conspiracy.  Indeed, if things are so dire, one would think that this would be of paramount importance.  If you have any evidence of such experiments, I'd love to see the info. 

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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: 9-11 conspiracy theory
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2011, 11:41:47 AM »
The NIST investigation, having posted its Final Report with its absurd Building 7 joint-breaking-thermal-expansion theory in late 2008 and FAQ by Christmas, closed its doors before the independent researchers published their findings of active aluminothermic materials in WTC dust in a mainstream scientific journal; but not before they publicized findings of aluminothermic residues in the same dust samples; and not before they extracted from NIST a series of public statements, in press conferences and in written responses to requests for correction (RFCs), about the conduct of their inquiry into the cause of the skyscrapers' total destruction

There are a lot of thing that the government does to protect its people, and hide information that is better left unsaid, but to go though the efforts to set-up an elaborate scheme to kill it's own people is luscious. All this is anti war propaganda, much like the the war propaganda like the, 1990 Testimony of Nayirah, Operation Northwoods, and Gulf of Tonkin incident. We can find information in anything if we look hard enough, but the fact that this was a set up by our government is BS. The New World Order is probely the only one that i might buy into because in my opinion the rich already run every thing so whose to say that dont call the shots.

Whats next you going to promote the shadow government?   &)
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: 9-11 conspiracy theory
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2011, 11:42:57 AM »
YY:

You're really, really reaching here.  "If finding aluminothermic residues in the form of spheroidal micro-droplets was like finding fired bullets at a crime scene, then the discoveries presented in Active Thermitic Material Discovered are like finding the gun loaded with several rounds of unspent ammunition that match the fired bullets."  Sorry, but I don't buy it.  The writers of this paper all believe in a 9/11 conspiracy, and they all have a vested interest in trying to prove themselves right.  And they're coming up with a rather complicated theory which involves intentional sabotage of the WTC instead of looking for simpler explanations for the evidence.

Why was this paper only published in the Bentham Open Chemical Physics Journal, rather than, say, the Chemical Physics Journal or the Journal of Chemical Physics?  I've heard, but can't verify, that the OCPJ uses a different peer review process than other peer-reviewed journals.  Furthermore, even presuming that the peer review process used here was perfectly legitimate, other scientists have to independently verify the results.  The initial peer review process is simply to verify that the scientific method was followed; it doesn't prove anything about the actual legitimacy of the results.  When we get papers written by other scientists, ones who don't have a vested interest in getting the same results as this initial group (such as belonging to a group that intends to prove that there was a 9/11 conspiracy), that show the same or similar results, then there's room to say that the results are legitimate.  Until then, it is only right and proper to call the results of this paper into question.

Personally, I find the idea of the melting aluminum frames of the planes reacting explosively with water in the building (and thus wrecking the building supports) to be fairly compelling.  For one thing, aluminum melts at significantly less than the temperature of burning jet fuel (660C vs 1000C), as opposed to steel (1500C vs 1000C).  For another, water and molten aluminum have been conclusively proven to react explosively at high temperatures.  A 20 kg mass of molten aluminum reacted with 20 kg of water and left a 30 meter crater.  It certainly makes a lot more sense to evaluate this theory than to conclude that the government's report didn't answer every question, thus it was a massive cover-up.

Offline C

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Re: 9-11 conspiracy theory
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2011, 12:15:39 PM »
LOL OMG I really hit the bottom of the barrell here didn't I? Klokinator? Did you even read anything? Or do you look at a picture, make a post, look at the picture a little closer, make a post, take a nap, make a post? Are you and C the same person?

My nap's over. Apparently. And now there's a new conspiracy about how everybody who disagrees with you about 9/11 on the WWGHA forums is actually the same person! This is madness!  &)

There's just no reasoning with people like you. Really. Religious AND a conspiracy nutter? This has got to be one of the worst match-ups in history.

And to answer your previous question: No further investigation is necessary.

End.
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Offline grant

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Re: 9-11 conspiracy theory
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2011, 04:41:06 AM »

Please speak english. I don't understand a word of what you're trying to say.

And our American financial crisis will touch its sticky fingers on your bangers and pints. So don't act like it's isolated to just us Yanks "across the pond".
If you can't work it out mate, back to kindergarden for you.

Bangers, pints, the pond? WTF are you talking about? I know what you misguidingly think you're alluding to... do you?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 04:43:27 AM by grant »
What if the hokey pokey is what its all about?