Author Topic: Where did your faith come from?  (Read 2797 times)

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2011, 10:02:36 AM »
The Nazarene teacher said that we could do the things he did and even greater. But it takes faith (not belief). Everyone on this planet is creating, but the vast majority of them are creating from the standpoint of doubt (including @Blaziken_rjcf). What happens with so much doubt being created? Inertia. The status quo. Reality continued unabated. Simple, logical and inevitable.

The Nazarene also said that belief in him would lead to salvation.

But you claim that nobody's prayers are answered because they all have doubts.

Which means that nobody will acheive salvation, because of those selfsame doubts.

Ahhh! So, somebody was paying some attention, after all. You gain points for that! But lose points for the slip in logic.  :P

@Anfauglir, please read my post again. I did not say "nobody's" prayers. Gotcha!

Very few prayers are answered. In fact, it may be that most Christians are not following Christ, but ego. .....

<shrugs>.  Okay, so not "none" then.  Just very few, as you admit.  And so very few self-proclaimed Christians will be saved....and, by your logic, presumably we could say that ONLY those who prayed and then experienced a miracle will be going to heaven.

So....what, let's say.....1%?  Probably lower, as I doubt there have been 20 million miracles happened to Christians alive today.  Because - as WWGHA points out - if THAT many prayers were being answered then we'd have seen umpteen amputees getting healed.  But we don't - so far, far less than 1% of self-proclaimed Christians will be going to heaven. 

Now consider this.  Approximately 150,000 people die every day.  Only 50,000 are Christians.  Only 500 of those - by your logic - will have the faith to be saved.

So, every day, your god send 149,500 people to hell - and lets just 500 into heaven.  And 49,500 of those people he sends to hell were as Christian as they could be, but just had a liiiiitle bit of doubt.

Doesn't sound like a particularly "loving" god to me.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2011, 02:01:29 PM »
1% is waaaaaaaay better than in the time of Noah.

Anfauglir, I am curious.
What is your purpose in this post?
Are you saying "God is not loving so there is no God"?
Or are you saying "Dear God 1% is too stiff, please raise it up"?

Why don't you start praying for faith?
Eventhough it is predestined.  You don't know your destiny, do you......?

Of course if you say "Na there is no God" then God will say "I knew you would say that" ;)
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2011, 02:03:44 PM »
I've experienced creating miracles. And such a rare state of mind that is. I've struggled to get back to it for the better part of the last 34 years. I've seen traffic on Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles (one of the busiest thoroughfares on the planet) open up like Moses parting the sea.

WHAT?! A traffic jam solved itself like they all do?! Truly an unequivocal sign from God himself!

By the time @Blaziken_rjcf stands on their head for a million hours straight, I might be able to overcome all of my own doubts. Hopefully sooner. But just because they can stand on their head for even an hour or two doesn't mean they've perfected that art. And so they make demands about something they don't even believe in. Alas!

If only you'd read my post... Alas!
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2011, 04:07:53 PM »
Why won't God heal amputees? Simple answer: Because they don't ask.

Of course they don't! After all, assuming you have faith (which, by the way, is defined as belief in something for which there is no evidence, regardless of what you think it is), why the hell wouldn't you pray to regrow an arm or leg so you can... you know, enjoy life just a bit more?

I suppose @Blaziken_rjcf wouldn't understand no matter how I state the answer. Their mind is already made up. The trouble with the skeptic is that they so infrequently (or never!) turn that skepticism on their own beliefs. It's called restraint and humility in the search for answers.



Humility and restraint because your tale is just EXUDING that (eyeroll)
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Online jynnan tonnix

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2011, 09:23:58 PM »
...Are you saying "God is not loving so there is no God"?... (snipped)

I'm not Anfauglir, but I think that for a lot of atheists, this is the closest thing (of the choices you gave) to what we are saying. Except that it really amounts more to something like "the alleged behavior of this purportedly loving deity is so far removed from the way any truly benevolent consciousness would operate that either it cannot exist as is described or it does not deserve worship"

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2011, 09:48:36 PM »

That's enough for now. The details would fill a book (currently being written -- "The Bible's Hidden Wisdom").

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2011, 10:21:33 PM »
Quote
3 Items that Prove Something Big Happened 9620 BCE, The Year Atlantis Died

    An abrupt and major change to climate worldwide.
    A moderately large trace of volcanic debris in the Greenland ice cores.
    A sudden, 2-meter drop in sea levels worldwide.



"Rod", you seem like a nice guy and all, but whenever I see this type of thing on the internet, I think back to various encounters of branded-"trolls" on science forums, that come in from the cold, with the most absurd theories that they have developed by themselves, which don't have a leg to stand on: like gravity is caused by spin, or gravity is an optical illusion. Whilst I admire their tenacity in some ways, they have this pattern of avoiding answering any criticism of their pet theory and not being able to produce any mathematics or experimental evidence to support what they say.

I'm also reminded of this nice alternative chap, here, who recommends that people drink bleach : http://jimhumble.biz/   Of course, he will not be told that his stories about curing Malaria using bleach are lies, and will keep promulgating his insanity until he dies. Although they usually some across as nice people, often will technical skills, I'm unable to develop a mental model of why they can never learn anything from anyone else.
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Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2011, 11:51:24 PM »
I'm not Anfauglir, but I think that for a lot of atheists, this is the closest thing (of the choices you gave) to what we are saying. Except that it really amounts more to something like "the alleged behavior of this purportedly loving deity is so far removed from the way any truly benevolent consciousness would operate that either it cannot exist as is described or it does not deserve worship"
What if I say Jesus died for you, to save you from this terrible destiny.
Doesn't he deserve your worship?
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2011, 12:05:05 AM »
Quote
What if I say Jesus died for you, to save you from this terrible destiny.
Doesn't he deserve your worship?
But the god/Jesus character created the terrible destiny that it now offers to save us from. How is this any different from a classic protection racket?

Hint: It isn't.

We have to pay the protection money (tow the line) to the god/Jesus character (Al Capone) or our shop (soul) will be firebombed (sent to hell).

This isn't love, this is extortion, pure and simple.

Worship is off the table.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 12:10:45 AM by dloubet »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2011, 12:10:51 AM »
Anfauglir, I am curious.
What is your purpose in this post?
Are you saying "God is not loving so there is no God"?
Or are you saying "Dear God 1% is too stiff, please raise it up"?

What I am saying is that the god that you and lonestar worship that you claim is good and loving, reveals by its action that it is a callous and vicous monster.  I honestly don't understand why people who otherwise appear intelligent cannot grasp that simple point.

Why don't you start praying for faith?
Eventhough it is predestined.  You don't know your destiny, do you......?
You assume I haven't.
I have.  Several times.  Always with no response.
Either your god does not exists, or - as you assert - it has decided to ignore me and leave me to be damned.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Astreja

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2011, 12:30:44 AM »
What if I say Jesus died for you, to save you from this terrible destiny.
Doesn't he deserve your worship?

Absolutely not.  I consider it degrading and dishonourable to let someone else die in My place.  I also have no interest in worshipping a hypothetical being who would create a place of eternal torture.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2011, 02:19:33 AM »
What if I say Jesus died for you, to save you from this terrible destiny.
Doesn't he deserve your worship?

Absolutely not.  I consider it degrading and dishonourable to let someone else die in My place.  I also have no interest in worshipping a hypothetical being who would create a place of eternal torture.

QFT
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Offline Klokinator

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2011, 02:47:13 AM »
I hate it when people use QFT. Either you're saying Quoted For Truth or you're saying Quit Fucking Trolling.

Better to just spell it out unless being ambiguous was the intention =/

Offline One Above All

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2011, 02:51:28 AM »
I hate it when people use QFT. Either you're saying Quoted For Truth or you're saying Quit Fucking Trolling.

Better to just spell it out unless being ambiguous was the intention =/

I've never heard the latter used as an acronym (I.E.: I meant the former)
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline jetson

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2011, 06:34:03 AM »
I hate it when people use QFT. Either you're saying Quoted For Truth or you're saying Quit Fucking Trolling.

Better to just spell it out unless being ambiguous was the intention =/


Quite Fucking True.  ;D

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2011, 09:00:36 AM »
Quite Fucking True.  ;D

That's how I always read it :)
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Online jynnan tonnix

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2011, 09:17:24 AM »
I'm not Anfauglir, but I think that for a lot of atheists, this is the closest thing (of the choices you gave) to what we are saying. Except that it really amounts more to something like "the alleged behavior of this purportedly loving deity is so far removed from the way any truly benevolent consciousness would operate that either it cannot exist as is described or it does not deserve worship"
What if I say Jesus died for you, to save you from this terrible destiny.
Doesn't he deserve your worship?

Don't you understand that if the stories of this (hypothetical) deity were true, it would mean that the vast majority of his creation would be damned to eternal torment simply for having come to the conclusion that something they had no evidence for didn't, in fact, exist? And that given this deity's omnipotence, it would take less than a thought from it to make sure that each person had the evidence they needed to make an informed choice as to whether they would follow it? Poof, problem solved, salvation of all but the truly obstinate ensured, and no breach of actual free will.

Yet the god you describe is happy to remain hidden, and somehow we are supposed to take the fact that there seem to be a chosen few who "know" a hypothetical "truth" - in much the same way that a paranoid schizophrenic "knows" that there's a vast conspiracy - as some sort of incontrovertible evidence of its existence?

And, when, inevitably, all those who are not wired for gullibility, or all those who have grown up within a different faith or whatever other reasons there are that the vast majority of human beings ever born don't end up coming to this belief, I am supposed to blithely look around and say, "Oh, well...tough for them. But I'm saved. Oh, what a wonderful and gracious God!".

No. Because this god as described...any deity who has the omnipotence to create a universe and has full control over the outcome of all the souls within it, yet still chooses to run things in a way that ensures unending torment for all but a handful is NOT a creature to be worshiped. Whether or not I am one of the elect.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2011, 02:12:11 PM »
Don't you understand that if the stories of this (hypothetical) deity were true, it would mean that the vast majority of his creation would be damned to eternal torment simply for having come to the conclusion that something they had no evidence for didn't, in fact, exist?

They do see that.  However, there are two items you are overlooking.  First, the existence of yhwh is obvious to them.  Just look around you and there is all the evidence you need.  You'd have to be some kind of idiot to miss all that evidence.

Second, if you don't see it, it is your fault.  You must not want to see the evidence because you hate god and want to sin, so that is your flimsy atheist excuse.  Thus they preserve the idea of a just god.
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Online jynnan tonnix

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2011, 08:47:14 PM »
Hmm...yes, you are right, of course, Screwtape. I guess it's futile to hope for a theist with enough empathy to concede that there are those of us who have weighed the evidence in an impartial manner and simply found it lacking. To say nothing of those who have actually tried desperately to regain a faith which they felt slipping away. I still always feel compelled to keep hitting my head against that wall, though.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2011, 08:57:15 PM »
case in point (from today, even):
It is very important to me to know whether or not God is real.  I really want to know the truth.

Why is his existence not obvious to you ? See around you. Everything is finely managed to make life happen. Our universe, the earth, cannot popped up into existence without a cause. Everything that begins to exist, has a cause. You have a cause, your mom, and dad, wanted you. A car has a cause. Only the universe should have no cause at all ? Why should such a thinking make sense ?



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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #78 on: October 24, 2011, 08:05:41 AM »
Hmm...yes, you are right, of course, Screwtape. I guess it's futile to hope for a theist with enough empathy to concede that there are those of us who have weighed the evidence in an impartial manner and simply found it lacking. To say nothing of those who have actually tried desperately to regain a faith which they felt slipping away. I still always feel compelled to keep hitting my head against that wall, though.

Or, as I suspect in many cases, they broke open the vase of religion for emotional reasons, and then when the recovered their senses, noticed that there was no god inside.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2011, 09:05:10 AM »


The reason why I am asking is that I just had a chance to ask myself a question "Why do I believe?"
Obviously, we all know there is no solid evidence on the bible stories, and some of the stories are completely illogical, irrational, nonscientific.

But you know what? I believe. I just believe.
Is it because I am illogical, irrational?
Then why do I believe in God but disbelieve in Santa?

I found my answer in the bible.
Was you brought up in a Christian household, if so then no you didn't. You were indoctrinated, the choices were all made for you.

Also you weren't indoctrinated to believe in Santa, you only got info about him once a year, and when you said you didn't believe any more, nobody sculled you for it.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #80 on: October 24, 2011, 11:42:34 AM »
SK, I’m a little late to this party but I’ll toss in my experience.

What was the origin of my faith as a believer? I created it from the information passed on to me from people I trusted. It started with my parents and grandparents and the magical stories I was taught in Sunday school, and then developed over the years from confirmation with peers, church, bible studies, and retreats.

I had absolutely no reason to doubt it was all true. After all, everyone I trusted knew it was true. Who was I to question it?

The reason why I am asking is that I just had a chance to ask myself a question "Why do I believe?"

But you know what? I believe. I just believe.

This isn’t an answer. There is a reason more than “I just believe.” So what is it? Really think about this because it’s fucking important.

I found my answer in the bible.

What does that mean? What was the answer you found? All you did was turn to a book that has been called "the answer" by people in your social circle. Have you actually sat down and read it cover to cover? If you did AND you were honest with yourself while reading it, AND you managed to hang onto your “faith” it would be absolutely mind boggling. Sure, you can flip through the Bible and find uplifting and moral verses, but the other side of that coin reveals repulsive and disgusting scripture as well.

What’s funny is when you compare what they taught me as a child vs. the reality of what is really in the Bible. Compare these. It’s both hilarious and tragic:

• “One day Moses went out to his people and looked at how hard they had to work for the Egyptians! Moses saw a mean old soldier hurting a poor Hebrew! Moses took care of the mean soldier and hid him in the sand. The Pharaoh found out and started looking for Moses, but Moses ran away to the desert and went to the land of Midian!”

• "Have you allowed all the women to live?" Moses asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Go ahead, guess which is which.

But have you ever wondered why normal, intelligent people still can not come to a realization that you had?  Some of them indoctrinated, but some came from atheist family.

There are many reasons why people hold on to irrational beliefs, but it can usually be boiled down to fear.

Regardless of age, race, sex, education level.  The world where you live in, you see Christians.

If Islam isn’t true, why are there so many Muslims? That argument doesn’t go very far.

Are you saying "God is not loving so there is no God"?

I know this was directed toward Anfauglir, but I think since the god of the Bible isn’t a loving being he in no way deserves worship. And if you take a serious look at the world we live in and make an attempt to juxtapose it with an all loving being- the gears just don’t mesh.

Why don't you start praying for faith?

Been there, done that. I prayed sincerely. Nothing happened.

What if I say Jesus died for you, to save you from this terrible destiny.
Doesn't he deserve your worship?

No. Because he didn’t really die, did he? The only thing he did was toss away his human meat sack to reign down supreme judgment with his sky wizard and phantasmal alter egos.

There was no real sacrifice. It was all for show and dramatic effect.

Original sin can’t sneak up on a perfect, all knowing and all loving being. A perfect, all loving being wouldn’t pretend to place the blame on his imperfect creations, would never require sacrifice for something he allowed to come into existence, wouldn’t have demanded blood sacrifices in the past or a sacrifice of itself in human form, and it wouldn’t even require belief in him to give you eternal salvation; it would already be given because that being is love itself. All forgiven, no questions asked.

The god of the Bible isn’t perfect or loving. Storm god Yahweh is a being that demands worship or else you face his infinite hate and wrath.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #81 on: October 24, 2011, 12:44:22 PM »
Quote
SERPENT KILLA on October 22, 2011, 11:51:24 PM
What if I say Jesus died for you, to save you from this terrible destiny.
Doesn't he deserve your worship?

In mind mind, the idea of someone deserving something is utterly subjective, though from a moral standpoint understandable. The idea of whether one deserves something or not is fully dependant upon the concensus of interested parties UNLESS there is a party that has the ultimate power to enforce its will.
So, if there was in fact a God that created and ultimately wields power of all things, in my opinion such a being is deserving of fear, reverence, etc. because of the position it holds and of the ability it has. If it decreed that Jesus, or any other person should be revered and worshiped, then that person would be deserving of worship because the supreme all powerful said so and resistance to its will would be foolish and futile.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #82 on: October 24, 2011, 12:52:56 PM »
Quote
SERPENT KILLA on October 22, 2011, 11:51:24 PM
What if I say Jesus died for you, to save you from this terrible destiny.
Doesn't he deserve your worship?

Yeah, no. No more than I deserve worship from the people who I pulled from a burning wreck of a car.

Except that actually happened...and this "hell" thing doesn't exist.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Whateverman

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #83 on: October 24, 2011, 01:53:38 PM »
What if I say Jesus died for you, to save you from this terrible destiny.
Doesn't he deserve your worship?

If someone saved my life, I would feel obliged to thank him/her profusely, and to do so in multiple ways.  However, if that person instead saved my life then demanded (via threats of eternal torture) that I worship him for it, I'd call the cops.
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2011, 02:47:04 PM »
What if I say Jesus died for you, to save you from this terrible destiny.
Doesn't he deserve your worship?

If someone saved my life, I would feel obliged to thank him/her profusely, and to do so in multiple ways.  However, if that person instead saved my life then demanded (via threats of eternal torture) that I worship him for it, I'd call the cops.

lmao... No s**t! This is not the behavior of a well-adjusted individual.  :P

Besides, I don't recall asking anybody to die for me.

More importantly, SERPENT KILLA, you proclaim "Jesus died for you!" like that actually means something. Your fable says the Jesus character comes back as SUPER SPACE WIZARD OF THE UNIVERSE after his brief melodramatic death scene. So I ask... What kind of half ass sacrifice is that?

Because according to the myth, Jesus didn't so much "die for my sins" as he "experienced a brief period of discomfort before gaining immortality and infinite power over all existence... for my sins."

Wow. I'm SO humbled. Maybe for his next trick, he can clip his toenails to ease world hunger, or maybe catch a wicked paper cut for world peace.

If Jesus wanted to impress me, he'd have locked himself in a garden shed and allowed himself to be raped every day for 18 years like that poor lady in Germany. Now THAT I can see as a genuine sacrifice.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2011, 02:57:29 PM »
More importantly, SERPENT KILLA, you proclaim "Jesus died for you!" like that actually means something. Your fable says the Jesus character comes back as SUPER SPACE WIZARD OF THE UNIVERSE after his brief melodramatic death scene. So I ask... What kind of half ass sacrifice is that?

Because according to the myth, Jesus didn't so much "die for my sins" as he "experienced a brief period of discomfort before gaining immortality and infinite power over all existence... for my sins."

Yeah, that's my take on it, too.  A few days of extreme agony, followed by omniscience, omnipotence, and immortality.  That's no sacrifice, that's the deal of the century.  Where do I sign up?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 03:01:58 PM by pianodwarf »
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Re: Where did your faith come from?
« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2011, 03:08:45 PM »
What if I say Jesus died for you, to save you from this terrible destiny.
Doesn't he deserve your worship?

a being that can't show it exists?  No, it doesn't deserve anything, much less worship.    And this "terrible destiny" came from JC/God wanting it to be so, it/they made the rules (after fucking up quite a few times before it decided to murder itself for itself the "only" way to be saved).  IT's like worshipping Hannibal Lechter for chaining you up and then letting you go.
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