Author Topic: Would you be offended?  (Read 4181 times)

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Online Azdgari

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2011, 06:04:57 PM »
"I hope Santa gives you the cure to your terminal disease this Christmas" is more analogous.
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Offline YY

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2011, 06:09:48 PM »
It's offensive like child sexual predatory behavior is offensive.

Please tell me you're kidding.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2011, 10:47:56 AM »
To answer the question of: Why should someone have a free pass to say things to me that I don’t like when you seem to think that I shouldn’t have the same free pass?

- you have the same "free pass"
- using that "free pass" is not always a good thing to do
- you as well as the rest of us should be compelled to be kind when addressing others
- there's a time and place for every discussion, and every comment does not open the door for discussion

TOT, just remembered this thread.  I'm still curious to know when it's acceptable to you to tell a theist that they are wrong.    I see that you qualify that we should be "kind" when addressing others.  Is it ever "kind" to tell someone that they are wrong?  Will they ever think it "kind"? 

And why should we make up rules when comments are and aren't open for discussion?  This goes back to when do you find that magic time that a theist won't be offended to be told that they are wrong.

Greta Christina has a good blog post on this: http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/10/24/were-telling-them-theyre-wrong-why-coming-out-atheist-is-inherently-oppositional/
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Offline ungod

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2011, 10:58:43 AM »
But is their heart in the right place? Are they praying for you out of a sincere wish for your recovery, or are they praying to avoid hellfire and get a better mansion in heaven?

Are they being loving, or self-serving?

This is what the phrase "poisons everything" was meant to convey.
Right on. They are being totally self-serving, wanting to give the impression of having done you this great favour, when in fact they have done nothing.
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2011, 11:07:03 AM »
The thing that bothers me about "I'll pray for you" or "I'll keep you in my prayers" or whatever, is this...

When I hear it, I hear "Wow, that sucks. I'll think about you for a few seconds at some later time and then I'll make a wish that s**t gets better. Then I'll have done my part and will no longer be required to think or do anything about whatever I'm praying for."

Like, "I've already sent a request to the creator of the universe, what else could I possibly DO!?"

It's a lazy, half-ass way of offering empathy while making yourself feel like you've actually done something significant to help a person.

I'd much prefer actual help if I need it, rather than having a person pass the buck to an imaginary friend to help me and then forgetting about it.

If the intention is just to express empathy, I'd much rather hear "Well, I hope things get better". It's honest and it's not burdened by the disingenuous bag of bullshit that suggests they're going to do me some kind of favor like "I'll pray for you!" does.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2011, 12:03:20 PM »
TOT, just remembered this thread.  I'm still curious to know when it's acceptable to you to tell a theist that they are wrong.    I see that you qualify that we should be "kind" when addressing others.  Is it ever "kind" to tell someone that they are wrong?  Will they ever think it "kind"? 

And why should we make up rules when comments are and aren't open for discussion?  This goes back to when do you find that magic time that a theist won't be offended to be told that they are wrong.

Greta Christina has a good blog post on this: http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/10/24/were-telling-them-theyre-wrong-why-coming-out-atheist-is-inherently-oppositional/


I attempted to address the timing and method best employed to address the error of the belief of another in a previous post. Let me repeat:

When you hear a person express this sentiment, does it not click that they are very likely well-meaning? If so, what is there to be bothered about other than the fact that they may be mistaken and misinformed? That being the case, how does a potentially abrasive and condescending response benefit anyone?

If the person saying they will be praying is so intolerably bothersome to you, first, GTFU, and secondly, why not respond by saying, "Thanks for the concern and BTW, when the doctors fix the problem/the professionals rectify the situation, I'd like to discuss prayer with you."

By responding that way, you act like an adult with self control and an appreciation for your fellow man while at the same time setting the stage for having a conversation/discussion on the foolishness of prayer. When that discussion has started, then the gloves are off
as no one is blindsided by a rebuttle they had no idea was potentially possible.

As far as rules for when comments are and aren't open for discussion, we use common sense and allow the setting to dictate what is and what is not appropriate as we understand that there is a time and place for everything and taking every comment and making a discussion, argument, or point of contention of it is often uncalled for.


Offline theczar

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2011, 12:08:45 PM »
The thing that bothers me about "I'll pray for you" or "I'll keep you in my prayers" or whatever, is this...

When I hear it, I hear "Wow, that sucks. I'll think about you for a few seconds at some later time and then I'll make a wish that s**t gets better. Then I'll have done my part and will no longer be required to think or do anything about whatever I'm praying for."

Like, "I've already sent a request to the creator of the universe, what else could I possibly DO!?"

It's a lazy, half-ass way of offering empathy while making yourself feel like you've actually done something significant to help a person.

I'd much prefer actual help if I need it, rather than having a person pass the buck to an imaginary friend to help me and then forgetting about it.

If the intention is just to express empathy, I'd much rather hear "Well, I hope things get better". It's honest and it's not burdened by the disingenuous bag of bullshit that suggests they're going to do me some kind of favor like "I'll pray for you!" does.

Very well put, this is exactly how I feel.

Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2011, 12:27:36 PM »
As far as rules for when comments are and aren't open for discussion, we use common sense and allow the setting to dictate what is and what is not appropriate as we understand that there is a time and place for everything and taking every comment and making a discussion, argument, or point of contention of it is often uncalled for.

But what if we consider the comment itself uncalled for? Letting it slide does nothing to discourage the behavior, and bringing it up later won't have the same effect (most likely recieved with the phrase "Wait, why are you bringing this up now?").
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I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2011, 12:27:50 PM »
I attempted to address the timing and method best employed to address the error of the belief of another in a previous post. Let me repeat:
When you hear a person express this sentiment, does it not click that they are very likely well-meaning? If so, what is there to be bothered about other than the fact that they may be mistaken and misinformed? That being the case, how does a potentially abrasive and condescending response benefit anyone?
I read all of that, though now I'll address it point by point.  And I have yet to see why it matters if they are “well-meaning” or not?  As Ray has noted, and considering what I think of prayer, its no more than them claiming to do something when they are doing *nothing*.   Why can’t I tell then what I think at the time they are making such ridiculous claims?  And I am bothered by them since prayer is garbage and magical thinking can get people harmed or killed.  I think *this* is a very good reason to confront their delusions.

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If the person saying they will be praying is so intolerably bothersome to you, first, GTFU, and secondly, why not respond by saying, "Thanks for the concern and BTW, when the doctors fix the problem/the professionals rectify the situation, I'd like to discuss prayer with you."
  GTFU? to the patient who can’t leave?   And I see no difference in saying what you indicate and saying “thanks, and you’re wrong.”  You see, the patient, me for instance, is being the one put upon here, not the theist.  I dont’ want to hear this, I don’t care and too bad if the theist decided to spread their nonsense at the wrong time. Shouldn’t it be the theist who says “:I see you are in a stressful situation, I will tell you I care for you and maybe we can talk about my god later.”  Again, I see your position as giving religion the pass on *actually* being polite and considerate, with the *assumption* that the theist is always just “well-meaning”. 

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By responding that way, you act like an adult with self control and an appreciation for your fellow man while at the same time setting the stage for having a conversation/discussion on the foolishness of prayer. When that discussion has started, then the gloves are off [/b] as no one is blindsided by a rebuttle they had no idea was potentially possible.
I do love this part.  Now we have the atheist expected to act like an “adult with self control and appreciation for your fellow man”, but gee, the theist doesn’t have to do a damn thing.  They can spew their useless nonsense everywhere because gee, we simply *must* assume that they only “mean well” and that the atheist in countering that is evidently acting like a child and not appreciating their fellow man. 
Quote
As far as rules for when comments are and aren't open for discussion, we use common sense and allow the setting to dictate what is and what is not appropriate as we understand that there is a time and place for everything and taking every comment and making a discussion, argument, or point of contention of it is often uncalled for.
The invocation of “common sense”, when you want your way to be the “right” way. Nice :P  Sorry, not having any of that.  Again, you evidently can’t tell me one single time or setting that it would be okay to tell a theist that they are wrong.  It seems that the only possible way you would think it was okay is if the theist said “oh atheist, I think I might be wrong about my religion. Am I?”   As it stands, I have yet to see you show me where a theist would ever find me saying that he was wrong to be “called for” or “appropriate”.  We see idiot theists come here all certain that they are right and are shocked that here, on a website called “Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?” amazingly enough, that their claims and beliefs are questioned. 
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Offline Whateverman

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2011, 12:49:13 PM »
So, I just heard that someone I know was in a car accident. I don't know their religios affiliation, but if they were atheist (and I didn't know it), would it be offensive to say something like:

I’ll be praying for your full and quick recovery . . .

It wouldn't be offensive to all atheists all the time.  Some may take offense while others may not.  If you were to apologize slightly before saying it, that would probably lower the chance that they perceived you as preaching to them.  Something like "I don't know how else to say this, but...".

As long as they know you're sincere in wishing them well, I doubt they'd be offended by it.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2011, 03:26:48 PM »
I attempted to address the timing and method best employed to address the error of the belief of another in a previous post. Let me repeat:
When you hear a person express this sentiment, does it not click that they are very likely well-meaning? If so, what is there to be bothered about other than the fact that they may be mistaken and misinformed? That being the case, how does a potentially abrasive and condescending response benefit anyone?
I read all of that, though now I'll address it point by point.  And I have yet to see why it matters if they are “well-meaning” or not?  As Ray has noted, and considering what I think of prayer, its no more than them claiming to do something when they are doing *nothing*.   Why can’t I tell then what I think at the time they are making such ridiculous claims?  And I am bothered by them since prayer is garbage and magical thinking can get people harmed or killed.  I think *this* is a very good reason to confront their delusions.

Quote
If the person saying they will be praying is so intolerably bothersome to you, first, GTFU, and secondly, why not respond by saying, "Thanks for the concern and BTW, when the doctors fix the problem/the professionals rectify the situation, I'd like to discuss prayer with you."
  GTFU? to the patient who can’t leave?   And I see no difference in saying what you indicate and saying “thanks, and you’re wrong.”  You see, the patient, me for instance, is being the one put upon here, not the theist.  I dont’ want to hear this, I don’t care and too bad if the theist decided to spread their nonsense at the wrong time. Shouldn’t it be the theist who says “:I see you are in a stressful situation, I will tell you I care for you and maybe we can talk about my god later.”  Again, I see your position as giving religion the pass on *actually* being polite and considerate, with the *assumption* that the theist is always just “well-meaning”. 

Quote
By responding that way, you act like an adult with self control and an appreciation for your fellow man while at the same time setting the stage for having a conversation/discussion on the foolishness of prayer. When that discussion has started, then the gloves are off [/b] as no one is blindsided by a rebuttle they had no idea was potentially possible.
I do love this part.  Now we have the atheist expected to act like an “adult with self control and appreciation for your fellow man”, but gee, the theist doesn’t have to do a damn thing.  They can spew their useless nonsense everywhere because gee, we simply *must* assume that they only “mean well” and that the atheist in countering that is evidently acting like a child and not appreciating their fellow man. 
Quote
As far as rules for when comments are and aren't open for discussion, we use common sense and allow the setting to dictate what is and what is not appropriate as we understand that there is a time and place for everything and taking every comment and making a discussion, argument, or point of contention of it is often uncalled for.
The invocation of “common sense”, when you want your way to be the “right” way. Nice :P  Sorry, not having any of that.  Again, you evidently can’t tell me one single time or setting that it would be okay to tell a theist that they are wrong.  It seems that the only possible way you would think it was okay is if the theist said “oh atheist, I think I might be wrong about my religion. Am I?”   As it stands, I have yet to see you show me where a theist would ever find me saying that he was wrong to be “called for” or “appropriate”.  We see idiot theists come here all certain that they are right and are shocked that here, on a website called “Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?” amazingly enough, that their claims and beliefs are questioned.

So you suggest that it's okay to lay in wait for anyone that has a belief system that you view as "useless nonsense" to express their belief or say something that reflects that they are believers in a particular brand of "useless nonsense" to you so that you can pounce on them and their erroneous belief.

I say, BULL F'N SHIT!!

If I were to say God Bless You or I'ma Pray for You, or my son says "I hope Santa Brings You Something Good for Christmas," and you respond in a snarky manner. You are an ASSHOLE, point blank period!
The same would be true if you were to say to a believer while looking at the Grand Canyon: "It's amazing how we can stand here and view millions of years worth of rocks from various geological columns from this vantage point;" and have the believer respond by telling you that you are wrong for believing the that the Earth has been around for millions of years and you really need to start seeking Jesus so that you can be saved from Hell. That shit, just like what you are advocating is uncalled for. See, it DOES cut both ways and if said friend wanted to discuss your lack of faith, then they should do so on appropriate terms as opposed to doing so all willy-nilly cause you expressed something you believe and understand at a moment they didn't want to hear it.
Get over yourselves!!!

The 'G' in GTFU, is grow, not get.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2011, 03:29:51 PM »
But what if we consider the comment itself uncalled for? Letting it slide does nothing to discourage the behavior, and bringing it up later won't have the same effect (most likely recieved with the phrase "Wait, why are you bringing this up now?").

So what!? If you consider such expressions as uncalled for and can't let something that small slide then YOU my friend have issues. For real, your ass got issues!

Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2011, 04:10:32 PM »
So what!? If you consider such expressions as uncalled for and can't let something that small slide then YOU my friend have issues. For real, your ass got issues!

It's not that I can't let it slide; it's that you shouldn't let it slide if you don't like it, because you're gonna keep hearing it. I don't like it; so what am I supposed to do, accept the misery of listening to an idiot while I'm already in the hospital? Fuck that, they get to suffer too!

Also, Adhom, back it up with something other than "you got issues" because I can say the same about you and we get no further.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2011, 04:30:31 PM »
So what!? If you consider such expressions as uncalled for and can't let something that small slide then YOU my friend have issues. For real, your ass got issues!

But it's not "something that small" to everyone.  To me it would be a matter of a thought that would ruminate in my brain for hours, making me feel bad ultimately.  To my son it would be a reminder of the kind of belief that inspired many traumatic events for him.  For 12 Monkeys it would be a condescending commentary that ignores his people's existence and the near extermination of them.   It's anything but "small" even if people are willing to ignore the implications and put on a kind face for the sake of social expectations.  I think the appropriate response here isn't to justify it and demand its acceptance, it's to recognize the message that's being offered and apply it, not by starting an argument but for starters by making sure you don't inadvertently offend others now that you know the potential for offence. 

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2011, 04:40:03 PM »
It's not that I can't let it slide; it's that you shouldn't let it slide if you don't like it, because you're gonna keep hearing it. I don't like it; so what am I supposed to do, accept the misery of listening to an idiot while I'm already in the hospital? Fuck that, they get to suffer too!

Also, Adhom, back it up with something other than "you got issues" because I can say the same about you and we get no further.

Again, SO the Phuk what!? Big damn deal that you gotta keep hearing it. Are people not supposed to say stuff to or around you that you don't wanna hear or don't like?
Why do you hate it so much really? How does hearing it hurt or affect you in real life? Why do you care about the way a person expresses a caring, though admittedly lazy sentiment? And furthermore, who are you to dictate to another person that's not your damn child, how they can and cannot express their sentiments? In addition, all theists are not idiots, they perhaps just have misapplied faith and have been subject to misinfo and indoctrination. And another thing, suffering, you call having to hear that phrase suffering, C'Mon Man!!!

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I could care less about an Adhom or Non Seq, etc., who the hell uses those words in everyday language anyway?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 05:12:17 PM by Truth OT »

Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2011, 06:51:22 PM »
Again, SO the Phuk what!? Big damn deal that you gotta keep hearing it. Are people not supposed to say stuff to or around you that you don't wanna hear or don't like?

Oh they can say it all they want, but why shouldn't I reply with something they don't like? You're giving them a special pass without good reason. If they say something I don't like, then why should I refrain from responding as I see fit? You seem quite happy to excuse their childish behavior, but don't allow us to treat them like children when they act that way.

Why do you hate it so much really? How does hearing it hurt or affect you in real life?

Others have said it better than I could, but I have no problem reiterating. It's a moment of weakness. You're in the hospital or whatever and they use that as the opportunity to bring their religion to the forefront? I mean, it's one thing if you don't know the person's beliefs - but if you know me well enough to actually being trying to give me condolences you already know you'll get chewed out for it; the "sentiment" reeks of trying to take advantage of that weakness. It's a very pushy way to do it and I will have none of it.

Why do you care about the way a person expresses a caring, though admittedly lazy sentiment? And furthermore, who are you to dictate to another person that's not your damn child, how they can and cannot express their sentiments?
Because I am the one to whom the "caring" expression is being presented. If it does not show that they care, then why should I not let them know that? I'm not advocating giving them a lecture on the subject (although I would not condemn it either), but if they don't think it through, I have no obligation to tolerate it.

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In addition, all theists are not idiots, they perhaps just have misapplied faith and have been subject to misinfo and indoctrination.
So what's wrong with telling them that you find it insensitive of them?

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And another thing, suffering, you call having to hear that phrase suffering, C'Mon Man!!!
First off; I said misery in relation to myself, suffering was what I intended to inflict. I would appreciate it if you kept those straight  :P

But seriously, I shouldn't have to hear it in the first place. I might not resort to a Velkynian method of ripping their whole worldview to pieces in front of them, but I completely agree that they need to be called out on their insensitivity. Do you not think I wouldn't be called out for offering (with full sincerity) to do a rain-dance in the name of Thor in an effort to cure them? Of course I'd be called out (assuming they believed me)! It's telling the guy who's down "You're beliefs are wrong". Why don't you kick him while you're at it?


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I could care less about an Adhom or Non Seq, etc., who the hell uses those words in everyday language anyway?

I do, why?

------------------------------
Maybe not "Adhom"s that often... but I do call people on non sequiturs all the time.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 06:55:06 PM by Avatar Of Belial »
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I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2011, 08:45:28 AM »
So you suggest that it's okay to lay in wait for anyone that has a belief system that you view as "useless nonsense" to express their belief or say something that reflects that they are believers in a particular brand of "useless nonsense" to you so that you can pounce on them and their erroneous belief. I say, BULL F'N SHIT!!
 
Wow, TOT, nice strawman.  Is that the best you can do? No, I don’t suggest “laying in wait”.  I am saying that someone says something I find wrong, I’ll counter it.
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If I were to say God Bless You or I'ma Pray for You, or my son says "I hope Santa Brings You Something Good for Christmas," and you respond in a snarky manner. You are an ASSHOLE, point blank period!
  And again, what of responding nicely like GG did, TOT?  Call me an asshole, I don’t care, but you forget that GG did no such thing.  You want to roll everyone up into one ball who dares tells a Christian that they are wrong and that’s rather pathetic.     

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The same would be true if you were to say to a believer while looking at the Grand Canyon: "It's amazing how we can stand here and view millions of years worth of rocks from various geological columns from this vantage point;" and have the believer respond by telling you that you are wrong for believing the that the Earth has been around for millions of years and you really need to start seeking Jesus so that you can be saved from Hell. That shit, just like what you are advocating is uncalled for. See, it DOES cut both ways and if said friend wanted to discuss your lack of faith, then they should do so on appropriate terms as opposed to doing so all willy-nilly cause you expressed something you believe and understand at a moment they didn't want to hear it.
Get over yourselves!!!
No, it’s not uncalled for. It’s exchanging opinions. One person says one thing, and they get countered.  Cripes, TOT, are you just that conflict adverse?
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The 'G' in GTFU, is grow, not get.
Ah, so it’s “grow the fuck up”.  So, anyone who dares to question a Christain is a child, eh?  Well, TOT, you need to realize that adults do discuss things and don’t need to be handled with kid gloves.  And, *again*, you have no answer to when it’s okay to tell a theist that they are wrong.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #75 on: October 26, 2011, 11:26:49 AM »
Quote
The same would be true if you were to say to a believer while looking at the Grand Canyon: "It's amazing how we can stand here and view millions of years worth of rocks from various geological columns from this vantage point;" and have the believer respond by telling you that you are wrong for believing the that the Earth has been around for millions of years and you really need to start seeking Jesus so that you can be saved from Hell. That shit, just like what you are advocating is uncalled for. See, it DOES cut both ways and if said friend wanted to discuss your lack of faith, then they should do so on appropriate terms as opposed to doing so all willy-nilly cause you expressed something you believe and understand at a moment they didn't want to hear it.
Get over yourselves!!!

No, it’s not uncalled for. It’s exchanging opinions. One person says one thing, and they get countered.  Cripes, TOT, are you just that conflict adverse?


THIS IS IT! This is our point of contention. It has little to nothing to do with what an atheist or a believer can or can't say, it has everything to do with how one interacts and responds to people with whom they disagree in certain settings.
I believe the offensive behavior to be the combative unanticipated and unprovoked response to a statement by an individual that simply reflects their belief or understanding. It seems that you feel it's appropriate and okay to jump on someone the moment they say something with which you disagree no matter if that person is NOT initiating or expecting a "discussion." To me, that's rude, self serving, uncalled for, and depending on who it is that you respond that way to, an invite for conflict that is unnecessary.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 11:37:55 AM by Truth OT »

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #76 on: October 26, 2011, 01:32:12 PM »
So, I just heard that someone I know was in a car accident. I don't know their religious affiliation, but if they were atheist (and I didn't know it), would it be offensive to say something like:

I'll be praying for your full and quick recovery . . .

?

I wouldn't be offended..unless the dwelled on it and/or was using it as a opportunity to proselytize. Generally they aren't thinking about the implications, it is just part of the superstitions and myth structure they were raised with. Just the same as if some gibbering tribal primitive saying they'll leave a shiny pebble for me at Ugabuga's altar. Most people are deluded into thinking whatever magic ritual, and praying is just another magic ritual, will help.


Now if I recovered and they tried to take credit or shouted the typical "Praise Jesus"....that's where I would get offended. They are no longer just acting within the standard unthinking way...but expect me to actively acknowledge their susperstitious delusions as real. When I see somebody's life saved by a rescue worker and they say "thank god" rather thank thanking the person in front of them that just risked their life, ohh that burns my scalp.



An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #77 on: October 26, 2011, 01:43:31 PM »
Clever comparison, but somewhat lacking in being a true parallel to what's up for discussion. The issue is NOT that one should not tell a person "I don't share your beliefs". What it is is the issue of how to treat others with kindness and respect and having the tact to know when it is more appropriate to address the issue of flawed beliefs.
and you have yet to tell me when it would be okay to do this and what to do if a theist would never, and many fit this, take being told that they are wrong with any "kindness" and "respect".  All you seem to want is that atheists should never ever rock the boat, and try to disguise that desire with vague claims of 'better and more courteous" ways. 

indeed, Why should someone have a free pass to say things to me tht I don’t like when you seem to think that I shouldn’t have the same free pass?

It boils down to very situational...and what you percieve as intent. When someone has good intentions AND isn't harming anone...to respond with anything less than kindness makes you look like a prick. And when it comes to their magical sky pixie....often believers are as emotionally fragile as a four year old.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #78 on: October 26, 2011, 02:08:58 PM »
Quote
You see, the patient, me for instance, is being the one put upon here, not the theist.  I dont’ want to hear this, I don’t care and too bad if the theist decided to spread their nonsense at the wrong time. Shouldn’t it be the theist who says “:I see you are in a stressful situation, I will tell you I care for you and maybe we can talk about my god later.”  Again, I see your position as giving religion the pass on *actually* being polite and considerate, with the *assumption* that the theist is always just “well-meaning”.


Velkyn, I totally missed this in my earlier response.
What I think you are not acknowledging, excuse me, what it is you are asserting is NOT what's being done at all. The believer that says "I'll pray for you" is not attempting to get you to discuss or acknowledge their God. It seems you are reading way more into the scenario than need be, and doing so changes the discussion from that of an innocent and harmless personal expression of concern to one of uninvited preaching. The two are vastly distinct subjects that allow for vastly distinct and vastly differing acceptable responses.

And you saying and concluding that I am advocating giving religion a pass is you building up a strawman to tear down because that is not at all what I am advocating.

Offline ungod

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #79 on: October 26, 2011, 03:58:31 PM »
I was in hospital, and received an unexpected vist from the hospital "chaplain." Didn't know such a position existed but apparently it's a volunteer thing. Didn't seem to be particularly welcomed by patients. Anyhow, she really ticked me off by her claim that I should be thankful to the "Almighty" for whatever help I, or any other patient, recieved! Jeez, seems to me I should be grateful to the doctors and nurses!
 She seemed rather nervous during her brief visit, and I don't wonder why.
I bit my tongue, and made no sarcastic response, and, besides, I'm not quick on my feet, and, as usual, would have thought of a suitable retort far too late.
OTOH, I can see where some people, in a hospital crisis situation, MIGHT find such a person to be of some comfort in the hospital chapel. Who am I to interfere in such situations? Yet, the Christian lobby that I see would have no problem imposing THEIR standards on others!
If someone visits you, and expresses the "I'll pray for you" bullsh*It, just log it as a clue to their personality and motives, but I do not think it worthwhile to make an issue of it at the time. After all, you have have more important issues, such as your health, to deal with. And, obviously, this sociopath is more concerned with his/her narcisisstic image than YOUR well being.
Perhaps a good retort to the "I'll pray for you" crap would be, "And what good will that do?"

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #80 on: October 26, 2011, 04:19:08 PM »
Other than the fact that the person that says they will be praying for you might actually pray for you, is there any real difference between saying "I'll be praying for you" as opposed to saying "You'll be on my mind and I'll be wishing you well?"

I catogorize both statements under the: I know the situation's outta my hands and I can probably do nothing to genuinely help you, but since it would seem less than nice if I said nothing and saying nothing may make me feel like I'm uncaring for whatever hard to explain reason, I'll just say this catagory.

The need to comment seems to arise from some unspoken rule that acts as a sort of pressure. The same pressure that one might feel if a coworker they barely know is sick or has lost a loved one and a get well or sympathy card circulates the office. What do you write on that card? And, since you really barely know the person and aren't on even a speaking basis, why feel compelled to sign it and write anything?

You humans are some funny creatures..........

Offline plethora

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2011, 05:53:02 AM »
I was in hospital, and received an unexpected vist from the hospital "chaplain." Didn't know such a position existed but apparently it's a volunteer thing. Didn't seem to be particularly welcomed by patients. Anyhow, she really ticked me off by her claim that I should be thankful to the "Almighty" for whatever help I, or any other patient, recieved! Jeez, seems to me I should be grateful to the doctors and nurses!
She seemed rather nervous during her brief visit, and I don't wonder why.

They have those 'chaplains' in hospitals here in the UK too. They're not even volunteers ... they are actually paid for by my taxes which really fucking pisses me off. I am a member of a local humanist organization and we have been bitching to our MP (Minister of Parliament), who has actually raised the issue in parliament but so far has been unsuccessful in making any headway towards getting them off the government payroll.

I can put up with the "I'll pray for you to get well" platitudes coming from friends and family who are really just saying they are hoping for me to get better. But if I'm in the hospital and a fucking chaplain ever comes into my room to talk to me they're in for a verbal bitchslappin'. I'm actually quite sharp when it comes to retorts and destroying people's arguments in real time.

Fuckers ... you don't see atheists going into terminally ill patients' rooms and saying "by the way, now would be a good time for you to come to your senses and accept that god does not exist". Chaplains are preying on the weak and vulnerable. Fuck 'em all.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2011, 07:13:22 AM »
[quote author=plethora link=topic=20337.msg452244#msg452244
Fuckers ... you don't see atheists going into terminally ill patients' rooms and saying "by the way, now would be a good time for you to come to your senses and accept that god does not exist". Chaplains are preying on the weak and vulnerable. Fuck 'em all.
[/quote]


You see, once Churches could convert with Armies, Fire, and Sword. But they don't have those methods much anymore. So just like any other aging and rotten toothed predator, they prey on the sick, young, and dying.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2011, 10:22:21 AM »
THIS IS IT! This is our point of contention. It has little to nothing to do with what an atheist or a believer can or can't say, it has everything to do with how one interacts and responds to people with whom they disagree in certain settings.
I believe the offensive behavior to be the combative unanticipated and unprovoked response to a statement by an individual that simply reflects their belief or understanding. It seems that you feel it's appropriate and okay to jump on someone the moment they say something with which you disagree no matter if that person is NOT initiating or expecting a "discussion." To me, that's rude, self serving, uncalled for, and depending on who it is that you respond that way to, an invite for conflict that is unnecessary.

Yes it is and you have *yet* to show when there is a point one can tell a theist they are wrong and not cross your personally declared uncrossable lines of “appropriate”, “common sense” and “time and place”.   You throw a little fit, cursing up a storm as if that makes a shred of difference in your argument.  &) 

There is no time for a theist where they will not find being told that they are wrong “combative, unantipated, and unprovoked”.  That’s been my stance all along and you have *yet* to show me I’m wrong.   You want to claim that any reponse by a atheist to “I’ll pray for you” other than “thanks”, is a horrible horrible thing.  And it’s simply not true, aka it’s a lie, ginned up for your own comfort. 

You have yet to admit that a theist is self-serving, and uncalled for when saying “I’ll pray for you.”  Not, “do you mind if I pray for you.” nothing but a declaration that they think they can do what they want and that it will have some effect, which it won’t, other than a selfish desire to self-affirm their religion and try to find external validation for it for themselves. 

Quote
Velkyn, I totally missed this in my earlier response.
What I think you are not acknowledging, excuse me, what it is you are asserting is NOT what's being done at all. The believer that says "I'll pray for you" is not attempting to get you to discuss or acknowledge their God. It seems you are reading way more into the scenario than need be, and doing so changes the discussion from that of an innocent and harmless personal expression of concern to one of uninvited preaching. The two are vastly distinct subjects that allow for vastly distinct and vastly differing acceptable responses.

And you saying and concluding that I am advocating giving religion a pass is you building up a strawman to tear down because that is not at all what I am advocating.
  Nope, you are wrong, and not surprisingly so considering your other posts.  You have yet to show me what I’m asserting is not being done at all.  You have NO way to know, and are basing your assumptions on a presupposition based on your desire to see religion in a positive light.   

The believer in this scenario has decided that they need to tell me that they are praying for me.  Why, TOT?  Tell me the reason and how you know it exactly.  For me the answer could be one of two (there could be more and please feel free to expand on this) 1.  They assume I am a theist who agrees with them.
and/or 2. They think their beliefs have some impact on reality. 

They are wrong on both counts.  I am not a theist and don’t want to be prayed for and would want them to put their time to actual good use.  Prayers fail every single time.  Even if they are the typical thoughtless theist, there is NO reason not to correct them.  You assume an “innocent” and “harmless” personal expression and you try to make this a reason *not* to educate someone incase it harms their feelings.  I do find it uninvited preaching.  You may not.  However, this is not about you, it’s about me or an atheist like me.  For instance, I have the flu at the moment. I feel bad but too restless to sleep so I’m posting.  Why would I possibly want someone to wander into my room saying “I’ll pray for you.”?  What does this do except annoy me and let a theist remain tight in their delusion?  Especially if they knew I was an atheist?  Where is the *real* concern for me, if they actually cared about me, not some thoughtless prating?

IF you are not advocating giving religion a pass, I’ll ask you this:  what would you say to a friend who came into your room and said “I’m going to kill a goat by cutting its throat so you get better.” or “I’m going to hook you up to this electroshock device so you get better.” (my grandfather had a great bit of medical quackery from the 19th century, a box that could build up quite a shock that was for “medical purposes”.   Do you “say, sure go ahead” or do you say “no, please don’t, you are wrong.”??   

Quote
Other than the fact that the person that says they will be praying for you might actually pray for you, is there any real difference between saying "I'll be praying for you" as opposed to saying "You'll be on my mind and I'll be wishing you well?"

I catogorize both statements under the: I know the situation's outta my hands and I can probably do nothing to genuinely help you, but since it would seem less than nice if I said nothing and saying nothing may make me feel like I'm uncaring for whatever hard to explain reason, I'll just say this catagory.
And again you are making assumptions for your own purposes, TOT.  How do you know this is how the believer feels?  What if the believer doesn’t agree with you and they really believe?  You seem to be unilaterally deciding that they are as waffly as you are in their beliefs to try to give this hypothetical believer all of the benefit of the doubt. 
 
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #84 on: October 29, 2011, 03:56:06 AM »
Perhaps the most crucial question is this.  When you visit someone is hospital...when you are sitting by their bed.....

Who is the most important person there?

TOT, I'd like you to consider this question that I asked some time ago.  Who, in that situation, should be doing their best not to say things that the other does not want to hear?  Should the sick and vulnerable person be the "adult", as you repeatedly suggest?  Or should the - allegedly - concerned visitor, secure in their health and happy in their belief....should THEY not be the one to be "adult" about what they allow to fall from their mouths?

You keep saying that the unbeliever should just suck it up and accept whatever the believer says.  But as Velkyn has repeatedly asked you with no response, WHY does the unbeliver have to guard what they say, but the believer has no such stricture placed on them?

Alternative scenario: imagine the believer is in hospital, and the atheist visits, and says "I hope you get well - I won't pray, because your god doesn't exist, but I still sincerely wish you well."  Inappropriate?  Why?  In what way is this different from the believer saying they WILL be praying?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2011, 10:16:18 AM »
Perhaps the most crucial question is this.  When you visit someone is hospital...when you are sitting by their bed.....

Who is the most important person there?

TOT, I'd like you to consider this question that I asked some time ago.  Who, in that situation, should be doing their best not to say things that the other does not want to hear?  Should the sick and vulnerable person be the "adult", as you repeatedly suggest?  Or should the - allegedly - concerned visitor, secure in their health and happy in their belief....should THEY not be the one to be "adult" about what they allow to fall from their mouths?

You keep saying that the unbeliever should just suck it up and accept whatever the believer says.  But as Velkyn has repeatedly asked you with no response, WHY does the unbeliver have to guard what they say, but the believer has no such stricture placed on them?

No doubt about it, in such a scenario the concern is for and the attention should first be on the patient. In that situation I would agree that one wishing the patient well should take care to avoid doing or saying anything that they know would make the patient uneasy.

What irritates the heck outta me about what Velkyn and by way of your response you are doing is that you guys are shifting the issue to believer vs. non believer. Focusing on such avoids the underlying issue of how to treat people and best respond or not respond to things they might say that you do not like. The contention I have is that the offended parties in this scenario are making a mountain out of a grain of sand and appear to be looking, or as I described Velkyn as, "laying in wait" for an opportunity to get into with someone.

So to be clear, what I'm saying and have continually said follows:

1. It's not about believer vs. non believer, it's about how one deal should with things one hears when what one hears are things they don't like.
2. Someone saying something to you that you disagree with is oftentimes NOT intended as nor is it an invitation to start a discussion, an argument, or a solicitation of your "better" understanding.
3. You are reading way more into the scenario than need be, and doing so changes the discussion from that of an innocent and harmless personal expression of concern to one of uninvited preaching. The two are vastly distinct subjects that allow for vastly distinct and vastly differing acceptable responses.
4. People that respond to everything that they dislike or don't believe in in certain scenarios come across as petty, self serving assholes that are specialists in how to lose friends and alienate people.


---
You and Lady V have asked: "WHY does the unbeliver have to guard what they say, but the believer has no such stricture placed on them?" My response to this question is a question of why are you even asking me this as I never stated that was the case. You are making a false assumption that has given rise to a false dilemma. Did I not say and express the follow sentiment repeatedly here:

Quote
The same would be true if you were to say to a believer while looking at the Grand Canyon: "It's amazing how we can stand here and view millions of years worth of rocks from various geological columns from this vantage point;" and have the believer respond by telling you that you are wrong for believing the that the Earth has been around for millions of years and you really need to start seeking Jesus so that you can be saved from Hell. That shit, just like what you are advocating is uncalled for. See, it DOES cut both ways and if said friend wanted to discuss your lack of faith, then they should do so on appropriate terms as opposed to doing so all willy-nilly cause you expressed something you believe and understand at a moment they didn't want to hear it. Get over yourselves!!!

There IS NO double standard! You guys just need to assume one otherwise your points of contention stand on shaky ground.

Alternative scenario: imagine the believer is in hospital, and the atheist visits, and says "I hope you get well - I won't pray, because your god doesn't exist, but I still sincerely wish you well."  Inappropriate?  Why?  In what way is this different from the believer saying they WILL be praying?

This scenario is inappropriate and is NOT an apples to apples comparison. The reason why it is inappropriate is because in this scenario the atheist deliberately and without reason attacks the known believes of the sick individual directly! The appropriate thing for them to say would have been "I sincerely wish you well" and leave it at that. What was the purpose and intent of the "because your god doesn't exist" comment? Inserting that comment would be preaching and an invitation to debate and hard feelings because it directly attacks their beliefs. Telling someone that you will pray for them whether the prayer is offered to YHWH, Allah, Baal, etc., does not attack the person's beliefs and is not at all confrontational.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would you be offended?
« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2011, 10:34:02 AM »
The believer in this scenario has decided that they need to tell me that they are praying for me.  Why, TOT?  Tell me the reason and how you know it exactly.

And again you are making assumptions for your own purposes, TOT.  How do you know this is how the believer feels?  What if the believer doesn’t agree with you and they really believe?  You seem to be unilaterally deciding that they are as waffly as you are in their beliefs to try to give this hypothetical believer all of the benefit of the doubt.

Why would someone feel the need to tell a sick person that they will be praying that they get better in a scenario like the one up for discussion? They are a number of reasons and those varying reasons may or may not have benevolent motivations. That means that asking me why a believer would feel they needed to pray for you is a question that I can't answer for someone as it is possible for the reasons to vary between individuals. Unless you as the person that is sick are able to objectively determine that the person saying those words is doing so for spiteful, just to purposely piss you off reasons or any type of malevolent reason, then responding in a rude and combative manner is definately uncalled for.