Painful argument with a Christian

[kaziglu bey]

Recently I quoted a few Bible verses containing questionable content on my Facebook page. One of my Christian friends accused me of being "Negative". Within the last day, we have started an email discussion, her defending Christianity, me attempting to point out the problems. She dismisses my points as trivial, because knowledge of the Lord is the only way to understand things. How is it trivial that God explicitly approves of rape, murder, and slavery, which pretty much anyone could agree are three very bad things? She feels that other verses that do not reflect these sentiments somehow cancel out the disturbing passages, even though what they actually do is create contradiction and internal inconsistency.

She also said that it was ironic that people who protest picking select verses from the Bible do so themselves to make a point. I don't think that it is ironic at all, since I am not the one who believes in it, and am using it to demonstrate the errors, rather than to promote it as the only path to "salvation" (why did God incarnate himself, to be sacrificed, to himself, to appease his anger for Original Sin, which he, as the guy in charge, could have prevented in the first place? how is that merciful?).

I believe it also demonstrates that the Bible can easily be used to justify contradictory positions, and if it does, how can it be accurate? If anyone can use the Bible to justify any action or idea, how does that make it inerrant? Wouldn't it have just been easier for God to say " you know what, I just can't make up my mind what I want you people to do, just figure everything out yourselves"? After all this is what has happened. All of the progress made by Science is the result of human effort, not divine. Everything we understand about the Universe (from what I hear, its a pretty large body of knowledge) is because of science and human endeavors, not an act of god. Why give an imaginary being credit for this?

How did we as human beings allow ourselves to descend to a level of ignorance that we are so easily deceived by something so obviously flawed? How are we to recover from this plague of willful stupidity, and set our species on the right track? How is it that some people seem to have been born without logic or reason? Aren't those ultimately the defining characteristics of our species? Why do those who say we should not question God's plan even know what his plan is if the nature of that plan is a mystery to us? Why is it that any answer a Christian gives only leads to a dozen other uncomfortable questions?

It pains me to know that there is so much suffering, cruelty and death in the world, and yet there are those who think it is God's plan that such things happen. If my god was all about cruelty and suffering, I would fire his ass real quick. It's hard to accept that any answer given by a Christian to the questions I pose here will only attempt to circumvent logic and reason so that the Christian is able to cling to their desperate and delusional faith.

[curiousgirl]

I lost a lot of Christian friends when I chose to question the Bible and the God portrayed within it. Don't be surprised if Christians practically kick and scream or flat out ignore you when you point out Biblical contradictions. They are generally interested in their own comfort and closure rather than objective reality.

[violatedsmurf80]

am using it to demonstrate the errors, rather than to promote it as the only path to "salvation" (why did God incarnate himself, to be sacrificed, to himself, to appease his anger for Original Sin, which he, as the guy in charge, could have prevented in the first place? how is that merciful?).

I find it weird that many people think that GoD  jesus and the holy spirit are the same entity then others who find them to be separate  entity.  But then again who know because jesus did ask god why did he forsake him, mmm.. Well how could someone forsake them self’s?

How did we as human beings allow ourselves to descend to a level of ignorance that we are so easily deceived by something so obviously flawed? How are we to recover from this plague of willful stupidity, and set our species on the right track? How is it that some people seem to have been born without logic or reason? Aren't those ultimately the defining characteristics of our species?

Tradition and society is to blame in my opinion

Why do those who say we should not question God's plan even know what his plan is if the nature of that plan is a mystery to us? Why is it that any answer a Christian gives only leads to a dozen other uncomfortable questions

Well when you talk to your imaginary friend and he talks back there might be a problem, so to ask a question to an imaginary friend is to question his existence. 

[MMcNeely]

To the OP:  I also had a similar discussion with people on another forum.  At the end they were saying that God can do what he wants because he is God, and that they would rape, murder, commit genocide, and all the other nasty things of the Bible if God told them to.  I said they were barberic... they replied, "How am I being barbaric?"

[kaziglu bey]

I find it weird that many people think that GoD  jesus and the holy spirit are the same entity then others who find them to be separate  entity.  But then again who know because jesus did ask god why did he forsake him, mmm.. Well how could someone forsake them self’s?

I have never understood either how there can be those who believe in the trinity, and those who don't, yet each proclaims they are correct. Doesn't the number of disagreements as to the meaning of the Bible amongst Christians themselves say anything to them about the credibility of such a book?

[kaziglu bey]

To the OP:  I also had a similar discussion with people on another forum.  At the end they were saying that God can do what he wants because he is God, and that they would rape, murder, commit genocide, and all the other nasty things of the Bible if God told them to.  I said they were barberic... they replied, "How am I being barbaric?"

Yes, it is very difficult to understand how people who claim all morality comes from God don't see barbaric actions as such, if they are commanded to do so by a benevolent god. I would argue that a god who uses his unlimited power to create these evils is neither benevolent nor worthy of worship.

[curiousgirl]

MMcNeely, it just seems like they've got a bad case of SPAG. They can justify anything as long as their "God" commands it. Reminds me of Warren Jeffs and David Koresh.

[One Above All]

MMcNeely, it just seems like they've got a bad case of SPAG. They can justify anything as long as their "God" commands it. Reminds me of Warren Jeffs and David Koresh.

I would call it unconscious SPAG and the old "Is it good because God commands it or does God command it because it's good?" thingy

[kaziglu bey]

MMcNeely, it just seems like they've got a bad case of SPAG. They can justify anything as long as their "God" commands it. Reminds me of Warren Jeffs and David Koresh.

This got me thinking. Why is it that only SOME people who claim to have a personal relationship with God and receive instructions directly from him considered to be delusional, and not all of them? How is a Schizophrenic who has delusions of grandeur any different from someone who thinks that only those like them know the secrets to eternal paradise? how is that any less grandiose, or delusional?

[curiousgirl]

I agree, Blaz. However, it is illogical for their God to command them not to kill, then turn around and smite people (do as I say, not as I do). So I would ask them, even if God is good to you despite his rules being arbitrary for himself, how is he logical?

[Truth OT]

To the OP:  I also had a similar discussion with people on another forum.  At the end they were saying that God can do what he wants because he is God, and that they would rape, murder, commit genocide, and all the other nasty things of the Bible if God told them to.  I said they were barberic... they replied, "How am I being barbaric?"

Yes, it is very difficult to understand how people who claim all morality comes from God don't see barbaric actions as such, if they are commanded to do so by a benevolent god. I would argue that a god who uses his unlimited power to create these evils is neither benevolent nor worthy of worship.

For believers, there is no objective form of morality or guage thereof in existence apart from the will of God. What that implies is that without God, nothing is definite and all is subject to the feelings and motivations of the individual perpetrator of an activity and therefore, any activity that is employed can be neither moral or immoral. For the believer God's will is the standard of morality, righteousness, and ethics, and is therefore the only thing that is truly objective and the standard by which everything else is measured.
This line of reasoning is played out in the scriptures on various occasions with a good example being that of Abraham being willing to murder/sacrifice his own innocent son to comply with the will of God. (Admittedly, Abraham's case is different than modern believers because Abraham KNEW God existed per the texts as he had encountered God and even ate with God on occasion unlike any believers today). Abraham's reasoning was that God could not be wrong/immoral and that despite God's requirement of such a barbaric act, that in the end, God would raise/resurrect his son Isaac thus ultimately righting any perceived wrongs.
Believers are required by nature of how and what is believed to rest assurred in trusting that their God will fix and rectify all things in the end. The faith believers have in an "ultimate righteous outcome" is so strong, that it trumps all else including at times generally accepted ethics and even logic.

[curiousgirl]

IMHO, Kaziglu, all theism is based on delusion because there doesn't seem to be any logical arguments or scientific evidence to back it up. Some people are just further down the rabbit hole than others. Before I came to the forum, I was in way deep.

[One Above All]

I agree, Blaz.

Hooray! =D

However, it is illogical for their God to command them not to kill, then turn around and smite people (do as I say, not as I do). So I would ask them, even if God is good to you despite his rules being arbitrary for himself, how is he logical?

Long story: When I pointed out the logical inconsistencies in the Bible to my mother and got the old "metaphorical" excuse, I asked/told her "So everything that makes sense in the Bible is literal but everything that doesn't is metaphorical?"
She said yes

TL;DR version: They don't see the inconsistencies. They are literally incapable of understanding them

[curiousgirl]

Well, Blaz, I guess your mom had a magic decoder ring. Besides, who are we (damn heathens) to question Biblical contradictions? 

[kaziglu bey]

I appreciate people's responses and discussion. Where were all these thoughtful and insightful people when i was young? curiousgirl, I was raised as a Catholic, and it was a truly miserable existence, feeling compelled to deny myself things because it was the will of god, having questions but only receiving contempt and not answers, and being immersed in a culture that believed in fairy tales. I guess in a way i was pretty far down the rabbit whole. Then once I turned 18 I started seriously questioning things and to rebel. By that time I was a eucharistic minister, but was (foolishly) turning to Satanism. I will always get joy out of knowing that I gave people the body and blood of Christ, while wearing under my shirt an upside cross and baphomet symbol. Anyways, obviously Satan brought no more enlightenment than his bright and shiny counterpart, and with the guidance of a few of my college professors, I was able to see the truth that I had known deep down all along. It was a truly liberating thing, and I wish more people could experience it.

[screwtape]

Recently I quoted a few Bible verses containing questionable content on my Facebook page. One of my Christian friends accused me of being "Negative". Within the last day, we have started an email discussion, her defending Christianity, me attempting to point out the problems. She dismisses my points as trivial, because knowledge of the Lord is the only way to understand things. How is it trivial that God explicitly approves of rape, murder, and slavery, which pretty much anyone could agree are three very bad things? She feels that other verses that do not reflect these sentiments somehow cancel out the disturbing passages, even though what they actually do is create contradiction and internal inconsistency.

you are learning the problems involved when trying to have a religious discussion with a believer.  Let me try to identify a couple for you. 

First, she does not believe in the god of the bible.  She believes in a wholly different god.  She learned about this god from her family, friends, and general society.  She has made up parts of it - which we call SPAG[1] This god is an amalgam of everything she considers "good".  That might include justice, love, mercy, tolerance, kittens, whatever.  It is a reflection of her personality.  This god will love what she loves and hate what she hates, punish the sins she abhors and forgive the sins she indulges.  The god is her.

Sure, she thinks she believes in biblegod, but that is because everyone told her that is where to find out about this god.  The two gods - biblegod and her SPAG - are wholly unrelated.  So when she reads the bible she brings in all these assumptions and beliefs and interprets the bible accordingly.  She is unable to look at it objectively. 

Second, the brain has not evolved to change its mind about things.  It has evolved to quickly make a model of reality and stick with it, right or wrong.  People rarely change their minds about things even when they are confronted with evidence that shows they are wrong.  She will go through all manner of mental gymnastic to make the evidence fit into her model.  For example, she thinks god is good.  So when she reads about yhwh commanding the genocide of the midianites, well, those midianites were sinful fuckers and they damn sure deserved it.  It sucks, but that's the human brain for you.  Intellectual dishonesty is its middle name.

She also said that it was ironic that people who protest picking select verses from the Bible do so themselves to make a point.

Tell her you are just trying to show a more balanced view of yhwh. She makes the hypothesis[2] that god is all good, gives a couple of verses to support her idea and concludes her investigation.  That is called [wiki]confirmation bias[/wiki].  It is related to the crappy way the brain works that I talked about briefly above.  What people need to do if they want to arrive at the truth is to look for contradictions to their hypotheses to test them.  That is what you are doing.  yhwh may do some good things, but that is not all he does.  He is complicated and you are just pointing that out.

How is it that some people seem to have been born without logic or reason?

Frustrating point #3 - stupid people are the rule, not the exception.

1.	Do a search on SPAG and the letters DTE.  It will be informative.
2.	assumption from her spag, really

[MMcNeely]

Thanks ST... I've never had SPAG explained like that before.  Really messed up, but enlightening.

Bey, I grew up Baptist and just recently deconverted myself.  I couldn't agree more that being atheist is the most liberating experience of my life.

[curiousgirl]

I appreciate people's responses and discussion. Where were all these thoughtful and insightful people when i was young? curiousgirl, I was raised as a Catholic, and it was a truly miserable existence, feeling compelled to deny myself things because it was the will of god, having questions but only receiving contempt and not answers, and being immersed in a culture that believed in fairy tales.

I feel your pain. My crazy (and abusive) "Christian" parents were fickle about which types of churches to attend (Pentecostal, Seventh-Day Adventist, Non-Denominational, even Jehovah's Witness, etc). We also moved a lot as well, so from age 8 to 10 I got to live in the Philippines (I am half-Filipino) and go to a Roman Catholic school for girls. I had to kneel down, say Hail Marys, use a rosary, and confess my "sins". The teachers kept telling us girls that we were bad. They actually hit some of the girls and pulled their hair. Luckily, they knew that since I was an American, my parents would not want anyone (but themselves) doing that to me, so I got treated a bit better than them. Anyway, it really is sad what religion does to people.

[jaimehlers]

Regarding stupid people being the rule rather than the exception, I don't think it's necessarily because they're stupid (though some assuredly are).  I think it's mainly to do with ignorance, combined with rationalization.  They're taught to think in a way that effectively enshrines ignorance, and then their own mind works to maintain that pattern of thought.

[nogodsforme]

I agree, Blaz.

Hooray! =D

However, it is illogical for their God to command them not to kill, then turn around and smite people (do as I say, not as I do). So I would ask them, even if God is good to you despite his rules being arbitrary for himself, how is he logical?

Long story: When I pointed out the logical inconsistencies in the Bible to my mother and got the old "metaphorical" excuse, I asked/told her "So everything that makes sense in the Bible is literal but everything that doesn't is metaphorical?"She said yes

TL;DR version: They don't see the inconsistencies. They are literally incapable of understanding them

I remember a diary about this. Here's the problem for the thinking Christian. The stuff that doesn't make sense, ie the magical, impossible stories, form the backbone of the religion. If you decide that the flood, Adam and Eve in the garden, Jesus' miracles and his rising from the dead are just metaphors, what's left? A philosophy book with some pretty stories, some nasty stories and a bunch of rules made up by primitive people. Just another book of myths. Not nearly as powerful as " the one and only almighty god said it!"

[One Above All]

<snip>Just another book of myths.<snip>

Actually, even if the Bible was taken as being literal, the "myth" thing would still apply

In the academic field of folkloristics, a myth is defined as a sacred narrative explaining how the world and humankind came to be in their present form.

EDIT: On a slightly related note, it's hilarious to watch how christians claim that the "Christian mythology" article is biased (because they don't understand the meaning of the word "myth") and try to vandalize it by changing certain parts of it

[RaymondKHessel]

Then once I turned 18 I started seriously questioning things and to rebel. By that time I was a eucharistic minister, but was (foolishly) turning to Satanism.

lol Wow. You know, there are actually *very* few actual "Satanists" out there, as in theistic Satanism - people who worship Big Gay Satan. So few in fact, I can't even find numbers for them.

The Christians of course would have you believe that there are MILLIONS of 'em. Roving packs of devil-worshippers tearing an unholy path across the country kidnapping babies and doing weird blood rituals in secret places and infiltrating governments... They seriously think devil-worshippers are EVERYWHERE. Infiltrating their own churches, hiding behind their refridgerators. It. Is. Fucking. HILLARIOUS to hear them talk about it.

They're basically like the Christian's Illuminati and boogiemen rolled into one lol. And they're the go-to guys for scapegoating. Every mysterious happening or unexplained misfortune, that's who you can blame.

"Oh my gawd! Did you hear there was a brush fire near the church!?"

"<GASP> Oh NO! I bet it was those devil-worshippers!"

"Oh my gawd! Did you hear that the Robinson's cat has gone missing?"

"<GASP> Oh NO! I bet devil-worshippers stole it and cut off it's arms and legs and drank the blood out of the holes! (HOLY SHIT YOU CHRISTIANS HAVE SICK IMAGINATIONS)"

"OH MY GAWD! DID YOU HEAR THAT MISS BROWN GOT KNEE CANCER!?"

"<GASP> OOOOHHH NOOO! DEVIL WORSHIPPERS PUT A CURSE ON HER WITH BLACK MAGIC!!!!"

"Oh my gawd! Did you hear" <SHOOTS SELF IN THE FACE>

There's at least a few tens of thousand of LaVey Satanists out there ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism ) who are registered members of that church, but LaVey Satanism doesn't actually have anything to do with a devil... The only thing you're supposed to worship is yourself. It just uses Satan as a symbol of freedom and self-indulgence and, in my opinion,  to be inflammatory and "piss off the squares" (which I think is a mistake - it could have been a much bigger thing if it didn't stigmatize itself by using the main villian from a completely unrelated religion as part of it's name).

It's more of a philosophy than anything else, albeit a selfish and kinda goofy one with a lot of silly terminology.

Like 90% of the time, when someone says they're a Satanist, they're referring to ol' Anton and his silliness. 

But a real honest to goodness "Devil Worshiper" huh? hahaha... Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the devil character as depicted in fiction, especially in stuff like the Devil's Advocate or Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series... But if I actually believed the hooey in the bible, I have to think it would seem like a lost cause trying to slap-box a hydrogen bomb.

Then again, if I believed the hooey in the bible, I'd still think the Yahweh character was a genocidal, petty, childish, murderous, slavery-endorsing, mysognisitic, homo-hating, super-rapey monster of a deity...  Just like I do as an atheist... But I'd BELIEVE IT WAS *REAL* so I guess maybe I'd try to side with Satan, too... I mean, we have something in common - we both think god is a screw up and unworthy of worship. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that? And if I believed the hooey in the bible, I'd of course know that YAHWEH knew that I thought he was a freaking monster, so I'd already be doomed to hell as it is; I guess I'd kind of be forced into devil-worship since I'd be doomed to go hang with Big Gay Satan anyway. Might as well, right?

[kaziglu bey]

First, she does not believe in the god of the bible.  She believes in a wholly different god.  She learned about this god from her family, friends, and general society.  She has made up parts of it - which we call SPAG[1]

1.	Do a search on SPAG and the letters DTE.  It will be informative.

Thanks Screwtape for that explanation. I have done as you suggested, and SPAG sounds a lot like what I have always considered to be "man creating god in his own image". Self Projection as God. That would certainly explain why everyone's god(s) think the way they do. I guess I feel like since I was able to figure out what was going on, others ought to be able to as well, but perhaps it is selfish of me to expect that.

I am having a little harder of a time understanding the DTE analogy. I'm just not making the connection though. This could be because i have not been able to locate any helpful resources, other than a vague reference on a facebook page about Distance To Empty and God. Or, perhaps the wrackspurts have made my brain go fuzzy or something.

[Emily]

I am having a little harder of a time understanding the DTE analogy. I'm just not making the connection though. This could be because i have not been able to locate any helpful resources, other than a vague reference on a facebook page about Distance To Empty and God. Or, perhaps the wrackspurts have made my brain go fuzzy or something.

DTE is a former member of ours. he coined the term SPAG.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Self_projection_as_god

[kaziglu bey]

lol Wow. You know, there are actually *very* few actual "Satanists" out there, as in theistic Satanism - people who worship Big Gay Satan. So few in fact, I can't even find numbers for them.

You could certainly describe me as one of the LaVey school of Satanists, though not really committed. It really didn't take me long to realize that what LaVey was describing was really more agnostic or perhaps even Atheist than religious, and that he included so much extra pointless bullshit (but hey, what would religion be without that?) as to make it worthless.

As you pointed out from your own experience, I too came to see Satan as more of a symbol of refusal to submit, rather than a symbol of evil. Satan refused to submit himself before God (as I do, since if the Bible is true, he's a tyrant) and instead embraces personal leadership. Satan is kind of a sympathetic character to me really, with God being the big bully who is always whining and bringing the pain when things don't go his way, while obsessing over circumcision, discharge, and menstruation. I can certainly respect a character who just wants to be able to look after himself a lot more than a spoiled cosmic dictator. (If Kim Jong Il had been the biblegod, could it really have been any more insane?) I'm kind of a loner anyways.

[kaziglu bey]

DTE is a former member of ours. he coined the term SPAG.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Self_projection_as_god

Thanks! But why a "former" member?

[Emily]

Thanks! But why a "former" member?

That I'm not sure. Not sure what drove him away. He might've gotten tired. I am still trying to figure out what drove WWGHA great Hermes away.


Oh, I hope they didn't become born again. I'll cry.[1]

1.	at least we still have KCrady

[Historicity]

She also said that it was ironic that people who protest picking select verses from the Bible do so themselves to make a point. I don't think that it is ironic at all, since I am not the one who believes in it, and am using it to demonstrate the errors, rather than to promote it as the only path to "salvation" (why did God incarnate himself, to be sacrificed, to himself, to appease his anger for Original Sin, which he, as the guy in charge, could have prevented in the first place? how is that merciful?).

Ahhhh, but there is a difference.  There is the understanding of the Flesh and the understanding of the Spirit.  You read the Bible with the understanding of the Flesh.

I didn't make that up, I got that from an ordained Protestant minister on another site.

[kaziglu bey]

Ahhhh, but there is a difference.  There is the understanding of the Flesh and the understanding of the Spirit.  You read the Bible with the understanding of the Flesh.

I didn't make that up, I got that from an ordained Protestant minister on another site.

My brain nearly exploded with the level of stupidity of such a statement. Someone actually SAID THAT to you? Are they in an asylum yet?