Question

[screwtape]

How attached are you to that belief?

Very.

And don't you think attachment to beliefs is an obstacle to improving your model of the world?  People were attached to a geocentric model of the solar system once. It was an obstacle to them having a better understanding of the world.

Also, why are you attached to it? 

What would it take to change your mind?

Proof that I was wrong

That is a flippant response that does not answer the question. You have a belief about what we have thought or been through - something you could not possibly know.  Specifically, how could it possibly be negated?  What would constitute proof.  So far several people have told you what they thought and been through and you have just waved your hand and called them liars. 

I strongly believe that every atheist who claims to have once been a believer was a pretender.

Why?  You cannot know the mind of anyone.  That is as silly as if I were to obstinately say "I strongly believe that every theist who claims to believe in god really worships squid." Or "every person who like vanilla ice cream thinks it is banana."

I already know you haven't seriously considered the possibilities.

Let's be accurate here, whatcha.  You don't know.  You believe.  Unless you tell me how you could possibly know, you only believe it.  You may feel a lot of certitude about it, but that does not equal knowledge.

In your opinion, the ONLY conclusion any thinking person could possibly come to is the one you have arrived at.  That shows conviction, but is really not a humble or modest approach.  It is dismissive and arrogant.  It says we are some kind of idiots for disagreeing.

Well stated.

So you are okay with your arrogance and pride?  Too bad jesus H isn't.  And does that then not mean that you are really just here to gloat?  That's not going to score points with jesus H either.

How do we determine which it is?

You determine it.  The proof of what Jesus said is within your own self.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. You said the truth of it is not unknown.  Now you are saying the truth of it is within me.  what the flip does that mean?

And everyone has their own angle on Noah, Eden, etc. The only proof a person can't debate is the knowledge of self within his own mind. Be honest with yourself. 

1. not the point. jesus H had an angle on noah, eden etc and that is the point.

2. what does "The only proof a person can't debate is the knowledge of self within his own mind," even mean?  I know what all those words individually mean.  But the way you have arranged them is mostly meaningless to me.  How does that even relate to what we are talking about?

I told you there are no current atheists who ever had a real past experience with God.

Yes.  I know you told me that.  I happend to think you are completely full of shit on that.  I also think you are a bigot in that regard.  You have no way of knowing what other people have experienced.  So making a blanket statement like that is no different than saying "all niggers steal".  What problems do you think your prejudice solves?

Is it that you fear losing your faith?  Are you afraid that if our experiences were real that means you too could possibly stop believing in god?

No it wasn't. Your faith was based on playing church, like alot of other phonies.

Again, you don't know me. You have no way of knowing my experiences.  And do you think calling me a phoney is a very xian think to do?

Fossils and light speed haven't disproved the Bible. Like C, you should visit more people than wiki. 

I did.  When I came to my conclusions about the OT, wiki was not even a concept and the internet was not widely known. I took classes on religion and the bible in college. 

 

[velkyn]

Here a list of outright lies by a Christian

I strongly believe that every atheist who claims to have once been a believer was a pretender.

I already know you haven't seriously considered the possibilities.

I told you there are no current atheists who ever had a real past experience with God.

I think you desperately hope this is the case. However, you cannot show that it is true in the least.  All you are doing is attempting to bear false witness to support your claims.  Why should we believe someone who lies so badly about what they think they know about others?  This makes all of your claims suspect and you didn’t even have to go there.

Then we have many baseless attempts to claim that atheists aren’t “being honest” with themselves. 

Fossils and light speed haven't disproved the Bible. Like C, you should visit more people than wiki.

and more lies and ignorance.   

[Avatar Of Belial]

Proof that I was wrong

Which you would subsequently ignore.

I strongly believe that every atheist who claims to have once been a believer was a pretender.

I already know you haven't seriously considered the possibilities.

Your faith was based on playing church, like alot of other phonies.

You know nothing of what other people think or believe and promote your own delusion as if it were gospel truth. The only result is making you look like another lunatic preacher on a city sidewalk. Only difference is you have yet (from what I've read) to proclaim the end of the world is nigh.

What you know about yourself isn't clear to most others, but it is to God and you'll never get around Him.

The voices in your head betray you. Stop listening to them and go see a psycologist.

[Add Homonym]

This is what I don't understand about creationism:

(1) their faith that evolution is wrong, is based upon their belief that Genesis is correct, because its in "the Bible", not because anything in the story is correct.
(2) there is no (2)

Look at that story

- day and night are created prior to the sun
- the sun is created after plants
- the Earth is created from water
- the sun, stars and moon are created inside the Earth's atmosphere, and water is above it somewhere
- life is evolved in 3 days
- the Earth is about 7000 years old
- the story of Noah is impossible, given what we now know about Earth's fauna and flora distribution and population. Supporting that, the writer gives no hint that Noah's task involved several continents and millions of insects.
- the story of Noah accidentally implies that plants survived the catastrophe, even though there is no natural way they could; and it does not detail how they survived; giving the impression that the writer thought there was simply no problem

- the creation story gives us no hint that plants, animals and humans all have the same life-chemistry. Any omniscient writer would have pointed that out.
- the story is not only oblivious to the Earth being spherical, but its construct of "day and night" being independent of sunlight strongly suggests the writer thought it was flat, and daylight was a property of heavenly light, shining through blue water
- the writer is clearly not aware that the heavens are rather large, or that the sun is another star
- the writer doesn't know about planets, and writes as if there is nothing outside 100km, above the a flat plane
- the writer gives us no details about what is below us. Only the "up" direction is important

If evolution is not the answer, then their own creation story clearly proves that their God is false.

I say "clearly proves". If creationists directed the same level of criticality at their own creation story, then they would ROFL.

Very much a case of "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the sequoia that is in thine own eye?"

I'm quite happy to concede to a creationist that a god may have had a hand in the creation of life, if they will concede that their own creation story strongly proves that their own god is false. But, I'm guessing that this concession would be of no value to them.

[velkyn]

heh, you can say hat again, Add.    Creationists are rather stuck with the silliness of their own claims.  They have the problem that there are two creation stories in tehir own magic book that contradict.  They then gin up "intelligent design" and get shot down by a conservative judge.   And of course, they've been promising for years that they'll have some "real science" supporting their nonsense "real soon now" and they have yet to have one scrap.  It's just fail after fail with them.

[whatchamean?]

***** I see what you did there! How totally dishonest. A prayer is a conversation with god The verse does NOT include some other person It does NOT include singing or preaching to other people. The other verses speak of talking in tongues with other people. BUT, When praying the conversation is supposed to be with some form of god. So the understanding that is fruitless can only be the prayee unless you're saying god couldn't understand either - which is equally stupid.

What are you, a former Pentecostal?

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1 Cor.14:2

Someone speaking in a foreign language that others don't undertand is only speaking to God...who understands all language. Or,
to the air, since other people don't know the language.

...for ye shall speak into the air. vs.9

If christians can show "Proof" of their connection with god through their abilities to speak "New" languages on a whim, I challenge you to speak to us in Quechua as I have an ex-mother in law that can verify it.

The Bible doesn't teach that Christians can speak new languages on a whim. (see ch.12)

[Add Homonym]

I'd like to see a few of these guys on youtube who claim they can speak in tongues, to give us a breakdown on what they just said, and explain the grammar to us.

Fair comment that others cannot understand them, but if they cannot understand themselves, and the language has no grammar or vocabulary, it may not count as a language.

[whatchamean?]

And don't you think attachment to beliefs is an obstacle to improving your model of the world?

My model is Jesus Christ and you'll never top Him.

People were attached to a geocentric model of the solar system once. It was an obstacle to them having a better understanding of the world.

People are attached to evolution today with not one iota of proof that it's true. It's amazing that people can look at something for so long and not see the truth about it. Scary really.

Also, why are you attached to it?

 
If you mean my centeredness on Jesus, there are many reasons. I used to think people living to 900 years old was silly too, until I discovered that old age doesn't kill people. It wasn't until a little later that I knew people weren't made to die.
 

That is a flippant response that does not answer the question. You have a belief about what we have thought or been through - something you could not possibly know.

Something you don't understand yet Screw. I don't have to know you. God already knows you and He can't be head faked.

Specifically, how could it possibly be negated?  What would constitute proof.  So far several people have told you what they thought and been through and you have just waved your hand and called them liars.

I've listened and in every instance the same mistake has been made. God isn't created in their image.   

Why?  You cannot know the mind of anyone.

What I strongly believe, God knows for sure.

That is as silly as if I were to obstinately say "I strongly believe that every theist who claims to believe in god really worships squid."

Most professing believers do worship squid.

Let's be accurate here, whatcha.  You don't know.  You believe.  Unless you tell me how you could possibly know, you only believe it.  You may feel a lot of certitude about it, but that does not equal knowledge.

Don't ever get to the point where you've convinced yourself that it's Gods fault.

So you are okay with your arrogance and pride?  Too bad jesus H isn't.  And does that then not mean that you are really just here to gloat?  That's not going to score points with jesus H either.

I used to tell Jesus jokes too. No, you're completely misunderstanding my position. God is great. We're all the same.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. You said the truth of it is not unknown.  Now you are saying the truth of it is within me.  what the flip does that mean?

It means quit being a pussy. It means get real with yourself if you still know how.

1. not the point. jesus H had an angle on noah, eden etc and that is the point.

Yeah I know, but the Lords angle on Noah isn't going to help me in my debate with an imbecile, is it.

2. what does "The only proof a person can't debate is the knowledge of self within his own mind," even mean?  I know what all those words individually mean.  But the way you have arranged them is mostly meaningless to me.  How does that even relate to what we are talking about?

You want irrefutable proof of Gods existence. There's only one way to get that and it's going to require your real self, not a churchgoer. You know who you are. You know what you want. Don't you?   

Yes.  I know you told me that.  I happend to think you are completely full of shit on that.  I also think you are a bigot in that regard.  You have no way of knowing what other people have experienced.  So making a blanket statement like that is no different than saying "all niggers steal".  What problems do you think your prejudice solves?

I just told you the truth about yourself....didn't I?  I'm sure you're unaware that I know I'm no better then you. Over the years, I've probably been worse than you. I know that Jesus died for my wrongdoing, so don't hand me this, "Christians think they're better than other people" crap.

Is it that you fear losing your faith?  Are you afraid that if our experiences were real that means you too could possibly stop believing in god?

No. I think your position that you had a genuine experience with God and chose to become an atheist aferward is ridiculous. Isn't it?

Again, you don't know me. You have no way of knowing my experiences.  And do you think calling me a phoney is a very xian think to do?

I think telling the truth is a very Christian thing to do.

I did.  When I came to my conclusions about the OT, wiki was not even a concept and the internet was not widely known. I took classes on religion and the bible in college.

So the idiot that didn't believe in God taught you all about Him.

[fungusdrool]

2. what does "The only proof a person can't debate is the knowledge of self within his own mind," even mean?  I know what all those words individually mean.  But the way you have arranged them is mostly meaningless to me.  How does that even relate to what we are talking about?

Not that this relates to what you are arguing but the quote above is a well worded non-first person: Cogito Ergo Sum, argument.

Whatchamean generally makes no sense at all.  I guess in this instance he can copy well. 
Of course, Descartes, went on to spend the remaining discourses spouting babble, but the cogito is a wonderful bit of reasoning.

[Brakeman]

***** I see what you did there! How totally dishonest. A prayer is a conversation with god The verse does NOT include some other person It does NOT include singing or preaching to other people. The other verses speak of talking in tongues with other people. BUT, When praying the conversation is supposed to be with some form of god. So the understanding that is fruitless can only be the prayee unless you're saying god couldn't understand either - which is equally stupid.

What are you, a former Pentecostal?

No, A former Baptist, but I've been to several "Church of God"churches who do believe similarly to the pentecostals.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1 Cor.14:2

Someone speaking in a foreign language that others don't understand is only speaking to God...who understands all language. Or,
to the air, since other people don't know the language.

...for ye shall speak into the air. vs.9

Again, you're dancing around the question, stick to the points raised in verse 14:14
( from http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/14-14.htm
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

International Standard Version (©2008)
For if I pray in another language, my spirit prays but my mind is not productive.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For if I should pray in languages, my spirit is praying, but my understanding is unfruitful.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If I pray in another language, my spirit prays, but my mind is not productive.

American King James Version
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Bible in Basic English
For if I make use of tongues in my prayers, my spirit makes the prayer, but not my mind.


Again, stated as clearly as I know how, How do you explain the soul praying without using your mind? Is your soul a separate entity from your mind and if so, just how does that wash with the normal view?

[whatchamean?]

I think you desperately hope this is the case. However, you cannot show that it is true in the least.  All you are doing is attempting to bear false witness to support your claims.  Why should we believe someone who lies so badly about what they think they know about others?  This makes all of your claims suspect and you didn’t even have to go there. Then we have many baseless attempts to claim that atheists aren’t “being honest” with themselves.

I desperately hope that you never really sought after God? That's funny. Truthfully, the only thing I desperately hope is that you aren't past the point of being real with yourself and from your statement above it's obvious you're well on the way.   

[whatchamean?]

No, A former Baptist, but I've been to several "Church of God"churches who do believe similarly to the pentecostals.
Again, you're dancing around the question, stick to the points raised in verse 14:14
( from http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/14-14.htm
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Again, stated as clearly as I know how, How do you explain the soul praying without using your mind? Is your soul a separate entity from your mind and if so, just how does that wash with the normal view?

Dude, he's not saying the speaker doesn't understand. He's saying the hearers don't understand. Look at the precedeing verses.

vs.14 My understanding (or what i undersrtand) is fruitless.

Why?

vs.13 Because without an interpreter

vs.12 The congregation doesn't understand what is being said.

He enforces this advice with a proper reason, that, if he prayed in an unknown tongue, his spirit might pray, that is, a spiritual gift might be exercised in prayer, or his own mind might be devoutly engaged, but his understanding would be unfruitful (v. 14), that is, the sense and meaning of his words would be unfruitful, he would not be understood, nor therefore would others join with him in his devotions. Matthew Henry

my spirit prayeth;
I pray with my breath vocally; or else with affection and devotion, understanding what I say myself, and so am edified; or rather with the gift of the Spirit bestowed on me:
but my understanding is unfruitful;
that is, what I say with understanding to myself is unprofitable to others, not being understood by them. John Gill

If I pray in an unknown tongue - The apostle, as he did at 14:6 , transfers it to himself.My spirit prayeth - By the power of the Spirit I understand the words myself. But my understanding is unfruitful - The knowledge I have is no benefit to others. John Wesley

[Brakeman]

Dude, he's not saying the speaker doesn't understand. He's saying the hearers don't understand. Look at the precedeing verses.

DUDE! It clearly says:

American King James Version
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Bible in Basic English
For if I make use of tongues in my prayers, my spirit makes the prayer, but not my mind.

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE IN THE CONVERSATION IN A PRAYER OTHER THAN YOU AND GOD!
Quit adding verses that speak of other people involved in other situations, that is dodging.

[Brakeman]

.. But my understanding is unfruitful - The knowledge I have is no benefit to others. John Wesley

NO, Basic English, that would make it Their understanding is unfruitful, not yours...

John Wesley couldn't answer without bullshit either..

[freefromjesus]

Whatchamean,

How is it that Pentecostals call themselves True Christian™ 's and you rake them over the coals about glossalia? It just shows that your GoD evidently can't even spell out his doctrines well enough in one language, and in one country, without causing divisiveness by those "called by His Name" to avoid them acting like children. There are no magic tongues and there is no sky-god to interpret them. That I'm sure of.

[whatchamean?]

DUDE! It clearly says:

American King James Version
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

"For"means he drawing a conclusion to what he said previously:

"...let him that speaketh..." vs.13 "...For if I pray..." vs.14   The prayer is obviously out loud.

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE IN THE CONVERSATION IN A PRAYER OTHER THAN YOU AND GOD!
Quit adding verses that speak of other people involved in other situations, that is dodging.

You mean...the other situations in the same chapter dealing with the same problem.

I will pray with the spirit....I will sing with the spirit....when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? vss.15-16

[Add Homonym]

My model is Jesus Christ and you'll never top Him.

You forgot the BWHAHAHAHAH!

People are attached to evolution today with not one iota of proof that it's true. It's amazing that people can look at something for so long and not see the truth about it. Scary really.

What do you mean by iota? The same sort of iota as "until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

You realise that all I have to do to falsify your sweeping generalisation, is to find one "iota", or question you on what you mean by "proof". What is "proof", and what is an "evidence". Evidence can be anything I feel like, but "proof", what is it? Proofs are normally mathematical. The point of the theory of evolution is its predictive power, in creating a world model. It's not designed to supply "proof" to fringe cultists and astrologers. You may say you can fault it, but there is a Nobel prize in it, if you really can. If it's so obviously wrong, then there is an obvious Nobel prize in it for you.

Liberal Christians have no problem with evolution. What you object to, is people looking for you to supply "proof" of your own impossible creation beliefs.

How are you going with your own iota of proof that the sun was created 4 days after day and night? Got an iota yet?

You think it's scary that people would have faith in evolution, even though we can see how the genes in animals are related, and can see the ancientness of the universe, but you don't think it's scary that after these things have been shown, there are people who still believe that God made the sun and stars under a layer of water on day 4.

So, it's "really scary" that people believe the world is more than 6000 years old. What is it that really jumps out at you that it's only 6000 years old? What's so obvious, that we are missing?

I can only imagine the strange world you live in, where all evidence comes from a few paragraphs in a single book, and you have to close your eyes and go LALALALA to anything that science says.

[Add Homonym]

Sorry. Wrong thread. I thought it was strange that he hadn't posted in here for 3 days. It's in the other thread. Slaps forehead.

[Brakeman]

DUDE! It clearly says:

American King James Version
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Bible in Basic English
For if I make use of tongues in my prayers, my spirit makes the prayer, but not my mind.

"For"means he drawing a conclusion to what he said previously:

"...let him that speaketh..." vs.13 "...For if I pray..." vs.14   The prayer is obviously out loud.

The previous verses state that the gibberish is a message, but they do not refute in any way that the gibberish comes from the soul and NOT the mind. Here he states clearly that it is from the soul by explaining that during prayer his soul can pray independently of himself.

Your "SPAG" projection of third parties are unwarranted as most prayers are not for public consumption but rather for private conversations with god. What are you ? A pharisee?

[whatchamean?]

"...let him that speaketh..." vs.13 "...For if I pray..." vs.14   The prayer is obviously out loud.

The previous verses state that the gibberish is a message, but they do not refute in any way that the gibberish comes from the soul and NOT the mind. Here he states clearly that it is from the soul by explaining that during prayer his soul can pray independently of himself.[/quote]
That the language was undertood by the speaker is evident in that the speaker himself was edified.

Your "SPAG" projection of third parties are unwarranted as most prayers are not for public consumption but rather for private conversations with god. What are you ? A pharisee?

No, but they were living in the time of the Pharisees when public prayer was commonly practiced. Maybe you should start with verse 1.

[Add Homonym]

What's the argument? If Christians want to pretend to be possessed by devils, and speak a load of gibberish that even their own church condemns, I say more power to them

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/heresies/tongues-have-ceased.htm

[screwtape]

And don't you think attachment to beliefs is an obstacle to improving your model of the world?

My model is Jesus Christ and you'll never top Him.

either you think that is glib or you think it is an actual response.  If the former, can we please get past glib responses?  I'm trying to have an actual conversation  If the latter, you are an idiot.

People are attached to evolution today with not one iota of proof that it's true. It's amazing that people can look at something for so long and not see the truth about it. Scary really.

see my response above.  You are wasting my time.

If you mean my centeredness on Jesus,

No, not your obsession with jesus H.  Your bigotry about atheists.  You obsession on jesus H was never part of the conversation.

Something you don't understand yet Screw. I don't have to know you. God already knows you and He can't be head faked.

Then it is for god to say, not you.  So you should keep your yap shut. 

Specifically, how could it possibly be negated?  What would constitute proof.  So far several people have told you what they thought and been through and you have just waved your hand and called them liars.

I've listened and in every instance the same mistake has been made. God isn't created in their image.   

Are you just randomly typing responses?  Because what you have written has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.

Why?  You cannot know the mind of anyone.

What I strongly believe, God knows for sure.

BUT YOU ARE NOT GOD.

That is as silly as if I were to obstinately say "I strongly believe that every theist who claims to believe in god really worships squid."

Most professing believers do worship squid.

alright.  We're done.


Okay, one last response

So the idiot that didn't believe in God taught you all about Him.

No, you dumb arrogant fuck.  My bible teacher was a PhD and was a believer.  She was a sweet, brilliant, patient woman who also taught Sunday school.

[whatchamean?]

You forgot the BWHAHAHAHAH!

I really like your upside down roo. I think it would be fun to have a drink with you.

What do you mean by iota? The same sort of iota as "until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Yes.

You realise that all I have to do to falsify your sweeping generalisation, is to find one "iota", or question you on what you mean by "proof".

That would be fine.

What is "proof", and what is an "evidence".[/quote]
Proof is what you know is true by reason of your own senses. Evidence is what may or may not lend credence to what is true and may or may not be correct, depending on unknown factors.

The point of the theory of evolution is its predictive power, in creating a world model. It's not designed to supply "proof" to fringe cultists and astrologers.

Or anyone for that matter.

You may say you can fault it, but there is a Nobel prize in it, if you really can. If it's so obviously wrong, then there is an obvious Nobel prize in it for you.

That would be swell. I could use the money to feed the hungry. The award itself would go in the can.

Liberal Christians have no problem with evolution. What you object to, is people looking for you to supply "proof" of your own impossible creation beliefs.

I've already provided as much evidence that God created the universe as you have for evolution, but you're right about one thing. The  existence of everything there is in the world causes silence for scientists.   

How are you going with your own iota of proof that the sun was created 4 days after day and night? Got an iota yet?

I'm not the one with the problem of questions such as "Where did the light come from?" , or "How did plants live before there was a sun?" God is the giver and sustainer of all life, but to answer such a question for you would require knowledge of the source of the "light" that God created on the first day and how it was "separated" from the "darkness." There are some who believe the entirety of mankinds (and all of creations) existence from beginning to end is contained in the first chapter of Genesis.

You think it's scary that people would have faith in evolution, even though we can see how the genes in animals are related, and can see the ancientness of the universe, but you don't think it's scary that after these things have been shown, there are people who still believe that God made the sun and stars under a layer of water on day 4.

I think it's scary that when people are browbeaten with an idea over a long period they become unable to see the flaws in the teaching. Eternal hell may be like that in  religious circles. What the water was above the sky in the beginning I really don't know. I don't think anyone Bible teacher does know.

So, it's "really scary" that people believe the world is more than 6000 years old. What is it that really jumps out at you that it's only 6000 years old? What's so obvious, that we are missing?

We can talk about it if you want, but it has been a long day for me and I'm very tired. I might see you tomorrow.

I can only imagine the strange world you live in, where all evidence comes from a few paragraphs in a single book, and you have to close your eyes and go LALALALA to anything that science says.

I don't close my eyes to everything science says. I just don't believe everything evolution teaches. And while I do believe God can do what science cannot explain, try not to jump off the cliff about it.

[whatchamean?]

What's the argument? If Christians want to pretend to be possessed by devils, and speak a load of gibberish that even their own church condemns, I say more power to them

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/heresies/tongues-have-ceased.htm

Then again, you do believe that order comes from disorder, so nonsense is perfectly normal to you.

[whatchamean?]

No, you dumb arrogant fuck.  My bible teacher was a PhD and was a believer.  She was a sweet, brilliant, patient woman who also taught Sunday school.

A brilliant believer, but you think people who believe in God are ignorant. You are just too transparent.

[riley2112]

What's the argument? If Christians want to pretend to be possessed by devils, and speak a load of gibberish that even their own church condemns, I say more power to them

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/heresies/tongues-have-ceased.htm

Then again, you do believe that order comes from disorder, so nonsense is perfectly normal to you.

I am a believer  that is questioning my beliefs. Why do I believe? I am really not sure why anymore. Is it because the Bible lets me know the word of God? Look I what to believe. It makes me feel alright with myself. It lets me remain calm in a world that is going totally stupid. However I would like just once, for a christian or anybody for that matter to let me know how I can be sure that the word of God is real. I mean there seems to be so many different ways in which to worship. And everybody tells you their God is the true one. Their way is the right way. No wonder there are people that say we are crazy. How can you think they would just believe because someone told them to? I want to believe and I am confused.

If you tell me to read the Bible, I have. However I seem to  have a problem believing without a doubt something that whats me to put ALL my faith in sometime that tells me to remain separate from the world. And does not what me to check my belief or facts with anything other than the Bible itself. Isn't that the same as believe me because I said so? 

[Emily]

No, you dumb arrogant fuck.  My bible teacher was a PhD and was a believer.  She was a sweet, brilliant, patient woman who also taught Sunday school.

A brilliant believer, but you think people who believe in God are ignorant. You are just too transparent.

Are you hinting that we (some of us, anyways) think believers are completely stupid and will never attain a post-grad degree, or somewhat otherwise position that highly intelligence people hold.

If so, you are an arrogant fuck. Ignorance isn't the negative to brilliance.

[JeffPT]

A brilliant believer, but you think people who believe in God are ignorant.

Ignorance is a term used to describe someone's knowledge base on a particular subject.  When it comes to people who believe in god, they are ALL ignorant; but that ignorance does not always stem from a lack of knowledge about what they believe, but just as often a lack of knowledge about the other side of the argument.  Have you not noticed that atheists know more about religion than believers do?  There are surveys out there that show this beyond any doubt. 

Interestingly enough, the opposite is true about evolution.  The people who accept evolution as fact understand it far more than people with little knowledge about the subject.  You, for instance, have likely never studied the subject in any detail at all, yet you feel fully capable of talking to people who do and outright rejecting everything they say.  Not because you KNOW more than them, but because it doesn't jive with your other beliefs (which are threatened by the theory).   My atheism would not be threatened at all by evolution being found false.  Not a bit.  Evolution doesn't HAVE to be true.  There were millions of non-believers long before the theory of evolution came along.  And even if I didn't accept evolution, there is still no reason to believe in God.  It just so happens that evolution IS true.  It's real, and that truth doesn't give a shit about what you think.  It's there whether you like it or not.

You are a completely lost cause until you are able to come to grips with the fact that you really, really could be wrong here.  If you were ever to start with the question "Could evolution be true" and analyze that possibility seriously from an unbiased perspective, then you might find yourself on the right track.  But I'm betting you'll never do that.

I am a believer  that is questioning my beliefs. Why do I believe? I am really not sure why anymore. Is it because the Bible lets me know the word of God?

You know that just because a book says it's right, doesn't mean it's right, right? 

Look I what to believe.

I think what you meant to say was.. "Look, I don't know what to believe."  If that is the case, my response to you is yes, you do.  You know what you believe, but it may not be what you WANT to believe.  Is that not a better statement?  Point of fact:  you can't unlearn what you've learned, even though you may not like it. 

It makes me feel alright with myself. It lets me remain calm in a world that is going totally stupid.

Where do you think a good portion of the stupid comes from?  When you answer that, you will also have the answer to the question "Why do the atheists get so upset about this stuff?" 

Also, the reason it makes you feel alright with yourself is because for most of your life, you've probably been told that religion is "good".  And from the things you've seen and heard in church, that "good" came shining through.  But it's not the religion that's good.  The PEOPLE are good.  Yes, religious people can be, and often are, really good people.  The thing is, they aren't good BECAUSE of their belief in God; they are good DESPITE their belief in God. 

(As an aside, sometimes I think people defend their beliefs so ravenously because they think atheists are attacking not just the belief, but everything about the church experience as a whole, including all the people they go to church with every Sunday.  Almost like they aren't really understanding what we are fighting against.) 

However I would like just once, for a christian or anybody for that matter to let me know how I can be sure that the word of God is real. I mean there seems to be so many different ways in which to worship. And everybody tells you their God is the true one. Their way is the right way. No wonder there are people that say we are crazy. How can you think they would just believe because someone told them to? I want to believe and I am confused.

When you find that person who says they can answer that question for you, bring them here.  If they present a better, more logically sound, evidence based argument than we do, feel free to do what you want.  I've been coming to this site for a few years now.  Nobody's even come close riley.  Nobody. 

If you tell me to read the Bible, I have. However I seem to  have a problem believing without a doubt something that whats me to put ALL my faith in sometime that tells me to remain separate from the world. And does not what me to check my belief or facts with anything other than the Bible itself. Isn't that the same as believe me because I said so? 

Yes, it is.  The bible's reliance on faith is nothing more than a glorified way of saying, "Dude, don't think about it. You just gotta trust me on this one."  Does that REALLY add a single thing to the argument at all?  If you read that in any book, would that even remotely swing your stance in favor?  Yet this is the SUM TOTAL of the reasoning behind so many people's belief in God.  Faith. You gotta' have it.  Why?  Because the bible says you have to, that's why.  That's bat shit insane. 

[screwtape]

he's just trolling.  Trying to push buttons.