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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Question
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2011, 10:14:00 PM »
Prove something in the bible prophecy came true after they wrote in the bible. It is like many of the prophecy that people make now it happen then people claimed that they said it was going to happen.
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline jetson

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Re: Question
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2011, 10:15:43 PM »
Quote
Jetson stated
I read Revelation last night from the NIV.  Did you have any epiphanies reading Revelation?
Yes Jetson I've had 2. One was, "Not all believers are the New Jerusalem." The 2nd one was smaller. In 5:7, the book taken from God by ther Lamb is the book of Revelation itself.

Interesting.  I didn't get those epiphanies myself.  I was looking for coherence, and found it lacking overall.  The entire book seemed like mythology gone bad - a trip through the mind of a completely delirious person, quite possibly in serious hallucination, or perhaps just taking fictional liberties for entertainment.

It was broken, disconnected, and ultimately futile considering it's patently ridiculous "truths" regarding stars falling to earth, or it's bizarre metaphors, if that was the true intention.  The creatures, the abyss, the horses and swords, and the blood...very, very bizarre.  And what can I say about the focus on sexuality.

I suppose an epiphany for me would be the confirmation that whoever wrote the book was desperate, at best.  But then again, that author, or authors were more likely unaware that their scribbling would one day be looked at as an important event for humans that has yet to arrive, and that modern humans take seriously.  Weird.

Offline jetson

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Re: Question
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2011, 10:16:46 PM »
I'm rethinking my belief in the doctrine of hell which I've believed for many years because of my friends logic.

Bravo!

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Question
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2011, 10:34:06 PM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Whatchamean is ignoring my requests for proof, and demanding proof from me when I only asked questions. .
I gave you what I consider proof that the God of the Bible is the One true God. Your question also contained comparisons and if can't show that other "gods" have done what my God has done, I must take that as a concession. In my opinion, your position that manuscripts cannot qualify as proof for historical events is absurd. What matters is how credible the writings are. I do not know anyone named QM and have never visited your website under another name.

Yes, but do you understand that your "proof" is not necessarily proof to us atheists? Again, using the Bible to prove God's existence is circular reasoning. I explained why, and Pianodwarf explained it as well in a different thread.

My position is that of a skeptic, yet you keep attributing some sort of positive claim to me. You are using the strawman fallacy when you refer to my supposed "position that manuscripts cannot qualify as proof for historical events." I said nothing about manuscripts. I merely asked for proof that the Bible is a historical document, which you have repeatedly dodged by trying to reverse the burden of proof. Again, I am skeptical of your claims. That DOES NOT mean I am making positive claims. Stop trying to reverse the burden of proof. That is a cop-out.

Provide me with proof for YOUR POSITIVE CLAIMS, and stop wasting my time.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Online Add Homonym

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Re: Question
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2011, 09:20:46 AM »
Quote
Is this infinite being Bible God? Or Allah? Or Vishnu? Or maybe even another god? If you pick one, I want to know why one would be any more real than the other.
The prophecies concerning Jesus about his birth, life, death and resurrection show that the God of the Bible is real, but since you equated Allah and Vishnu with God, please show me an example where either of those gods prophecied anything that came true. Prove it.

There is negligible evidence outside the NT as to the specifics of Jesus, and this evidence is all suspiciously constructed. Essentially it exists in 3 quotations:

- Testimonium Flavianum, which everyone admits has been tampered with, or on the extreme wholly inserted, since nobody quotes it until Eusebius suddenly "discovers" it.
- Annals of Tacitus, which also nobody quotes, and there have been suspicions that the whole work was faked by Bracciolini, for payment. "Tacitus" gives us nothing but unsubstantiated hearsay about Nero.
- Josephus' Antiquities, which notes Jesus being the brother of James, but the topic is obviously in the year 60AD, and strangely references another Jesus in the next few sentences, allowing for it being a fake insertion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#James_the_brother_of_Jesus

There are a whole heap of contemporary historians that fail to mention Jesus.

If you consider Paul to be a witness to Jesus in Galatians, Paul also gives us no historical information in his entire work that could be useful to verify against prophecy.

The evidence for the existence of Jesus is so vague that any person who existed at that time, who was martyred, could have been molded to fit supposed OT prophecy in the "narrative". Remember that the OT prophecy about Jesus was not declared in advance. The OT is a large tract of text, and parts of it were arbitrarily selected, as the subtleties in the story of Jesus were decided. The writer of Matthew obviously forcibly injects about 60 prophetic fulfillments into Mark as he redacted it; he creates questionable history about census, Egypt, Herod, double donkeys.

The OT does not specify that someone called Jesus would come at a certain date and be crucified at another certain date, and then be resurrected.

I'm reading my prophecy from here:
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm

This one claims he was "Of the seed of Abraham", and "Born of a virgin", "Heir to the throne of David", which is contradictory

"His name called Immanuel", not Jesus

In the list of supposed prophecy, I can see nothing that can be verified historically, outside the gospel narrative. When you look down the right column, you will see that most of the prophecy is documented in Matthew, which gives you an idea of who the main culprit was for faking prophecy. If he copied from Mark, then why does it not all come from Mark?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Question
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2011, 10:00:59 AM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Whatchamean is ignoring my requests for proof, and demanding proof from me when I only asked questions. .
I gave you what I consider proof that the God of the Bible is the One true God. Your question also contained comparisons and if can't show that other "gods" have done what my God has done, I must take that as a concession. In my opinion, your position that manuscripts cannot qualify as proof for historical events is absurd. What matters is how credible the writings are. I do not know anyone named QM and have never visited your website under another name.

Yes, but do you understand that your "proof" is not necessarily proof to us atheists? Again, using the Bible to prove God's existence is circular reasoning. I explained why, and Pianodwarf explained it as well in a different thread.

My position is that of a skeptic, yet you keep attributing some sort of positive claim to me. You are using the strawman fallacy when you refer to my supposed "position that manuscripts cannot qualify as proof for historical events." I said nothing about manuscripts. I merely asked for proof that the Bible is a historical document, which you have repeatedly dodged by trying to reverse the burden of proof. Again, I am skeptical of your claims. That DOES NOT mean I am making positive claims. Stop trying to reverse the burden of proof. That is a cop-out.

Provide me with proof for YOUR POSITIVE CLAIMS, and stop wasting my time.

BooYA !! Nice CG  ;)


""I'm reading this awesome book that says goats can fly!...this awesome book says that this awesome book is true!...therefore goats can fly!!!""
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Question
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2011, 10:32:25 AM »
Quote
12 monkeys stated
Nothing is more important than life itself.....dead is dead. Why do Christians always fail to live like Jesus has commanded them to.....jobless,pennyless,homeless and let God take care of you
12 Monkeys, I have atheist friends and co-workers and I they are very decent people. At least they appear that way. I would never imagine one of them going home to their computer and posting things one would expect from an ill mannered child. In fact I've had many discussions with my friends and have learned from them. I was challenged recently by one of my unbelieving friends about the doctrine of eternal hell. He told me that he admired the moral teachings of Jesus, but didn't believe in God because he didn't believe God would torture people for eternity. I'm rethinking my belief in the doctrine of hell which I've believed for many years because of my friends logic.

This is good to see.

Hopefully it's not just the persuasiveness of your friend, but your recognizing the disgusting nature of the doctrine itself, and moreover, the clear contradiction that the doctrine of hell is in the first place that makes you reject it as true.

An infinitely loving god cannot be infinitely merciful and immoral at the same time. There's your contradiction. An infinitely merciful god cannot dole out eternal punishment for finite errors. Out of its divine and unchanging infinite mercy would flow divine and infinite forgiveness. Hell would be unnecessary. If a god demands that we live by the moral standard of unwavering forgiveness to others, then it must to abide by the very rule that it has designed for us and that has come out of itself. Are we not supposedly created in its image ? If we are under this command and are to be the image of forgiveness, then this god is bound by this same demand and must abide by its own nature and rules.

The world would be much better off if they would see the contradiction in this doctrine and that hell does not exist:-- as well as the nonexistence of direct and hard evidence for god/s.

Cheers  :)

 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 10:34:02 AM by gonegolfing »
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Question
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2011, 07:04:24 PM »
BooYA !! Nice CG  ;)

Thank you  :)


""I'm reading this awesome book that says goats can fly!...this awesome book says that this awesome book is true!...therefore goats can fly!!!""

Yeah, that seems to be the gist of Whatchamean's "argument". LOL
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2011, 07:29:41 PM »
Quote
ParkingPlaces stated
whatchamean?, what you want is for there to be a god. Hence you believe there is.
The opposite is true. After questioning what I'd been taught, I made a concious decision to examine the Christian religion with no agenda. ParkingPlaces, I can't continue to address you if you're going to tell lies about me.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Question
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2011, 07:49:38 PM »
whatchamean?:
Quote
I have never visited your website. I do not know who QM is or what a troll is.
Come on... everyone knows what a troll is.

Sheesh, that's gotta be a lie...

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2011, 07:53:05 PM »
Quote
Eaten by Bears stated
The Jews would seem to disagree with you there.
Would you be referring to the Jews who wrote the NT? (Just a little good humor there  :) ). Mostly, what you said is true where the Jews are concerned, but then, the Bible said that would happen before you did.

Quote
How does a prophesy become verified by a story written afterwards that cannot in itself be verified?
It has been verified. It's a matter of history. You believe it isn't (I think partly) because you apply stricter standards to biblical manuscripts than you would to other ancient texts.

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2011, 08:02:54 PM »
Quote
Gnu stated
Come on... everyone knows what a troll is.
Sheesh, that's gotta be a lie...
If you don't believe I'm telling you the truth about myself there's nothing more I can say to you. I don't know what a troll is. I haven't read your rule page yet. Gnu, look, I don't have alot of time to spend here and I'm not going to spend it bsing you. Ok?

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Question
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2011, 08:15:46 PM »
Whatever.

What about this thread? Have you abandoned it, or what?

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2011, 08:37:50 PM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Yes, but do you understand that your "proof" is not necessarily proof to us atheists? Again, using the Bible to prove God's existence is circular reasoning. I explained why, and Pianodwarf explained it as well in a different thread.
Yes, I understand what you're saying and would even agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that the Bible isn't really one book. You're almost acting like the Bible was contrived as a conspiracy. Many of the authors didn't know one another. They didn't even live at the same time.

Quote
My position is that of a skeptic, yet you keep attributing some sort of positive claim to me.
Uh, no. To begin with, you asked why my God is better than Allah etc. and I gave you prophecy as a reason. Just for now, it doesn't matter whether we think the prophecies are bogus. Then I asked you to show me where other gods have made prophecies which have come true (or are said to have come true) and you apparently can't do it. What matters at this point is that no other ancient text contains prophecy that is purported to have been fulfilled. We won't say this proves my God is better than their gods, because for now, we can't prove whether the prophecies really did come true, but what we will say is that my God is different from their gods. Agreed?

Quote
You are using the strawman fallacy when you refer to my supposed "position that manuscripts cannot qualify as proof for historical events." I said nothing about manuscripts. I merely asked for proof that the Bible is a historical document, which you have repeatedly dodged by trying to reverse the burden of proof. Again, I am skeptical of your claims. That DOES NOT mean I am making positive claims. Stop trying to reverse the burden of proof. That is a cop-out. Provide me with proof for YOUR POSITIVE CLAIMS, and stop wasting my time.
Jetson set forth an intriguing request in the other thread on proof of historicity and I'd rather do it there.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2011, 10:18:34 PM »
Yes, I understand what you're saying and would even agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that the Bible isn't really one book. You're almost acting like the Bible was contrived as a conspiracy. Many of the authors didn't know one another. They didn't even live at the same time.
Even better than that, they didn't even sign their name! The authors, for the most part, wrote either anonymously or under a false identity.  Why would someone who's been "inspired" by god to pen his message to mankind, be afraid to pen his name to it?

Was he afraid or outside reprisals from unbelievers?  No, not believable, because a true believer who's really been tasked by god for a mission wouldn't be afraid of death anymore than a modern day suicide bomber. He would be reassured by his faith in god.

Was it because tribal priests could claim it as written further back in time by mystics to increase the credulity (believability) of there stories? Most likely..

What reason can you come up with?
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Online Add Homonym

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Re: Question
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2011, 12:28:52 AM »
Uh, no. To begin with, you asked why my God is better than Allah etc. and I gave you prophecy as a reason. Just for now, it doesn't matter whether we think the prophecies are bogus.

So, your God was the same as any other, until Matthew faked a load of rubbish into his book?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2011, 12:33:20 AM »
Uh, no. To begin with, you asked why my God is better than Allah etc. and I gave you prophecy as a reason. Just for now, it doesn't matter whether we think the prophecies are bogus.

So, your God was the same as any other, until Matthew faked a load of rubbish into his book?
IT DOESN'T MATTER.....he states it in his post in plain english
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Eaten by Bears

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Re: Question
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2011, 03:58:42 AM »
Quote
How does a prophesy become verified by a story written afterwards that cannot in itself be verified?
It has been verified. It's a matter of history. You believe it isn't (I think partly) because you apply stricter standards to biblical manuscripts than you would to other ancient texts.

I am interested in how the prophesies have been verified. Could you please provide some sources to back up this claim?

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Question
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2011, 12:31:04 PM »
Whatchamean, you need to go read the forum rules. All you are doing in this thread is making baseless claims and reversing the burden of proof. That stuff (I am using a more polite version of what I really mean) doesn't fly around here. I really hope to see your proof in the other thread that you mentioned. I won't play your little games. I am the skeptic, and I can outright reject your unfounded claims on this forum. PLEASE get with the program here and learn how to communicate properly with the atheists on this forum, or else you seem like a troll.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2011, 11:29:39 PM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Whatchamean, you need to go read the forum rules. All you are doing in this thread is making baseless claims and reversing the burden of proof. That stuff (I am using a more polite version of what I really mean) doesn't fly around here. I really hope to see your proof in the other thread that you mentioned. I won't play your little games. I am the skeptic, and I can outright reject your unfounded claims on this forum. PLEASE get with the program here and learn how to communicate properly with the atheists on this forum, or else you seem like a troll.
I have read your rules and if I understand the term correctly, a troll is someone who makes inflammatory statements to provoke a certain response or emotion in another. If that's right, I don't know how I've done anything near that, but there may be a few members who tried to do that to me. I understand that you're a skeptic. I consider myself one too. You can outright reject my unfounded claim that there is a God, but please remember that your claim there is no God is also unfounded. I don't play games with people and what is wrong with how I communicate with atheists? I'm building a case for why I believe the things I do, same as you would.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Question
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2011, 11:31:59 PM »
Then stop attributing a claim to me (since I am asking questions) and provide objective proof for God's existence.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2011, 11:32:16 PM »
Quote
Add Homonym stated
So, your God was the same as any other, until Matthew faked a load of rubbish into his book?
Prove it.

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2011, 12:08:26 AM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Then stop attributing a claim to me (since I am asking questions) and provide objective proof for God's existence.
I couldn't provide objective proof for Hannibals existence if you wanted it. Do you believe Hannibal existed?

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2011, 12:54:51 AM »
Quote
12 monkeys stated
IT DOESN'T MATTER.....he states it in his post in plain english
It doesn't matter....for now.




Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Question
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2011, 09:23:08 AM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Then stop attributing a claim to me (since I am asking questions) and provide objective proof for God's existence.
I couldn't provide objective proof for Hannibals existence if you wanted it. Do you believe Hannibal existed?

Red herring.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2011, 09:38:51 AM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Red herring.
Yes, it is a red herring, since you can't answer my question as I answered yours. You do believe Hannibal existed...based solely on the testimony of those who never met him...don't you?

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Question
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2011, 09:42:08 AM »
This is just getting silly...
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Finntroll

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Re: Question
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2011, 09:43:01 AM »
The prophecies concerning Jesus about his birth, life, death and resurrection show that the God of the Bible is real,
Wrong.
There are no prophecies about Jesus in the Old Testament. You would see that if you actually read the claimed texts in their totality, not just the verses NT writers quoted. Please read this article too:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html

What happened is that the gospel writers wanted to present Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, and then used scripture quite disonestly. Some of it is messianic profecy, but doesn´t fit Jesus. Some of it is not profecy at all, they just played with the wording of totally unrelated texts.

You can only get around that by claiming that the gospels are "The Word of God", and thefore their  interpretation of OT is correct. But when written, they were not considered "The Word of God". They were just letters written by some men.

And the Old Testament?
It is far from being historically accurate.
Read this, about the archaeology of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed
If you disagree, surely Jesus or the Holy Ghost can show you where the missing evidence is hidden? Problems? Excuses?

The stories about the biblical God are not true.
Therefore that God does not exist as such.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Question
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2011, 09:55:22 AM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Red herring.
Yes, it is a red herring, since you can't answer my question as I answered yours. You do believe Hannibal existed...based solely on the testimony of those who never met him...don't you?

Again, red herring. This is not about Hannibal. Prove that God exists.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan