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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Question
« on: October 07, 2011, 04:48:51 PM »
When I went to church I was a good little follower of Christ, but I read a passage from Luke 2:52 that stated “And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men”. I was taught that jesus was GoD  or at the least the son of GoD. So my question about this was always, how could this be if jesus was the son of GoD why would he have to be in favor with GoD? I figured that GoD would talk to him and tell him what he needs to do or at least install in jesus all the knowledge and wisdom that he needed. Then I thought why? He is the son of GoD he should know everything about GoD.  So to insure I read this properly I went back a few scriptures and read. In Luke 2:46 it states “After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions”. Why would he be asking anyone questions especially men when he was the son of GoD, what could they possibly tech him? Then in Luke 2:47 “Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers”. This verse contradicts Luke 2:46 completely. Therefore the child jesus was influence by the elder of the community or at the least brain washed to think that he was the son of GoD.  I still was not convinced that jesus was who he said he was so I read the whole thing about how he strayed away from his parents to go to the temple for three day while they looked for him. Jesus was incapable of sinning right? If this is the case then how is it that he broke one of the Ten Commandments which states "Respect your father and your mother, so that you may live a long time in the land I am giving you". Exodus 20:12.

This is going to be part of my discussion in my New Testament class, could someone give me an honest answer as to how to improve or better express my point?
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Question
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2011, 09:58:06 PM »
The problem is that the synoptic gospels do not regard Jesus as God, but as being a great teacher, prophet and Jew, and also the man to lead them into the kingdom they wanted, whatever they thought that to be. They were not really clear on what it was, either, because Luke 17 says

[20] And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
[21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Some conceived of it as being a mental kingdom that would come, when enough of them were right with God, through the awesome understanding of Jesus. I'm avoiding using the word "Messiah", because nobody knows what it means. Nobody even knows what the Jews thought the Messiah was supposed to do; but the idea that he was supposed to create a kingdom on Earth, in their time, is consistent with Jewish interpretation of prophecy. At the time the synoptic gospels started being written, it would still have seemed like the new interpretation of Judaism, (which still didn't have a name), could bring about world peace. However, as it dragged on, it would need reinterpretation, and counter polemic.

This problem of Jesus not being God, and actually denying being "good" is not the worst problem of the schism between the synoptics and John/Paul.

[19] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

It's in all three synoptic gospels. Nothing could be more blatant than that. It's possibly even put there for polemic purposes, against those who would worship Jesus. The Jesus of the synoptic paints a clear picture that you are supposed to get into heaven by works and perfection.

 

I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2011, 08:19:32 PM »
Gods nature is a mystery to us. We can only take what the Bible tells us and try to make sense of it. The Bible indicates that while Jesus is God, he was also made lower than the angels while he was on Earth.
In Jewish culture, asking questions was a way for rabbis to teach their students, not learn from them.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2011, 08:30:47 PM »
Gods nature is a mystery to us.
Now why would that be? He sent us his word didn't he? He preached to us for thirty years didn't he?
We can talk to him every day through the magic of prayer can't we?
Was God such a poor communicator that he couldn't get his point across?
Or was it more likely that the bronze age goat herders that wrote the bible, didn't have many answers and didn't want to be caught up in their lies so they made up the whole "god is mysterious!" shit to deflect hard questions?

We can only take what the Bible tells us and try to make sense of it.
Why don't you pray for divine biblical clarity? Why would god refuse to explain what he meant to a christian? Then come back and explain a few things to us and let us test you.

The Bible indicates that while Jesus is God, he was also made lower than the angels while he was on Earth.
Citation seriously needed! If jesus was god in the tri-une, then he is greater than the angels, always, all the time.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2011, 09:59:56 PM »
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Now why would that be?
He must have had a reason.

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He sent us his word didn't he?
Yes, and since then we know a little more.

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He preached to us for thirty years didn't he?
No.

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We can talk to him every day through the magic of prayer can't we?
Sure.

Quote
Was God such a poor communicator that he couldn't get his point across?
God reveals to certain people what He wants them to know.

Quote
Or was it more likely that the bronze age goat herders that wrote the bible, didn't have many answers and didn't want to be caught up in their lies so they made up the whole "god is mysterious!" shit to deflect hard questions?
I don't think anyone had to make anything up just because finite humans might not be able to explain an infinite Being.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 10:19:06 PM »
Quote
We can talk to him every day through the magic of prayer can't we?
Sure.

Quote
Was God such a poor communicator that he couldn't get his point across?
God reveals to certain people what He wants them to know.

So what has god said to you? Have you asked him for biblical clarity so that you can obey him better, so that you can be righteous in his sight? What did he say? What did he sound like? What were his words?

Why would god choose one man over the other if it weren't for the mans desire to please god the most? Why would god choose moses for something important over you?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Question
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2011, 10:20:32 PM »
He must have had a reason.
Prove it. Unless you don't know what that reason is, therefore you really don't know if there is a reason.

I don't think anyone had to make anything up just because finite humans might not be able to explain an infinite Being.

Is this infinite being Bible God? Or Allah? Or Vishnu? Or maybe even another god? If you pick one, I want to know why one would be any more real than the other.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline MMcNeely

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Re: Question
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2011, 10:20:46 PM »
whatchamean? = Captain cop out!

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2011, 05:53:05 PM »
Quote
Brakeman stated
Have you asked him for biblical clarity so that you can obey him better, so that you can be righteous in his sight?
You said at one time you were a Christian. You must have learned how people are considered righteous before God.

Quote
Why would god choose one man over the other if it weren't for the mans desire to please god the most? Why would god choose moses for something important over you?
What's more important than your life?

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2011, 06:04:28 PM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Prove it. Unless you don't know what that reason is, therefore you really don't know if there is a reason.
I don't know the reasons for lots of things. That doesn't make me think there must be no reason for what I don't currently understand. Is that truly the way you handle unanswered questions in your life?

Quote
Is this infinite being Bible God? Or Allah? Or Vishnu? Or maybe even another god? If you pick one, I want to know why one would be any more real than the other.
The prophecies concerning Jesus about his birth, life, death and resurrection show that the God of the Bible is real, but since you equated Allah and Vishnu with God, please show me an example where either of those gods prophecied anything that came true. Prove it.

Offline Eaten by Bears

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Re: Question
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2011, 06:07:18 PM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Prove it. Unless you don't know what that reason is, therefore you really don't know if there is a reason.
I don't know the reasons for lots of things. That doesn't make me think there must be no reason for what I don't currently understand. Is that truly the way you handle unanswered questions in your life?

Quote
Is this infinite being Bible God? Or Allah? Or Vishnu? Or maybe even another god? If you pick one, I want to know why one would be any more real than the other.
The prophecies concerning Jesus about his birth, life, death and resurrection show that the God of the Bible is real, but since you equated Allah and Vishnu with God, please show me an example where either of those gods prophecied anything that came true. Prove it.


On Monday I wrote on a bit of paper 'A pink giraffe will fly past my window on Tuesday.'

On Wednesday I wrote on a bit of paper 'A pink giraffe flew past my window on Tuesday.'

So my prophecy came true.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Question
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 06:16:47 PM »
Whatchamean, all you are doing is claiming your God exists because the Bible said so (BTW, words printed in a book do not entail truth, especially if its claims are extraordinary) and attempting to reverse the burden of proof when I have not made a positive claim (such as God exists) but instead asked you questions and demanded proof. It is predictable that you are using how I handle unanswered questions in my life as a red herring. We get theists like you all the time, preaching the Bible rather than providing logical arguments and scientific evidence.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Question
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2011, 06:41:00 PM »
Quote
The prophecies concerning Jesus about his birth, life, death and resurrection show that the God of the Bible is real, but since you equated Allah and Vishnu with God, please show me an example where either of those gods prophecied anything that came true. Prove it.

Prove something in the bible prophecy came true other wise it is not anything but a nostradamus predictions, were it came true after it happen. 
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2011, 04:27:18 PM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
We get theists like you all the time, preaching the Bible rather than providing logical arguments and scientific evidence.
There's nothing scientific about fulfilled prophecy because it's supernatural. The prophecies concerning Jesus are clear and easily verified, yet it seems now that you can't back up your claim of the God of the Bible being like any other god, your curiosity has disappeared.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Question
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2011, 04:33:52 PM »
Whatchamean, I asked questions rather than making a positive claim. If you want to reverse the burden of proof when you are the one claiming God exists, why should any of us take your claim seriously?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline Eaten by Bears

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Re: Question
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2011, 05:13:20 PM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
We get theists like you all the time, preaching the Bible rather than providing logical arguments and scientific evidence.
There's nothing scientific about fulfilled prophecy because it's supernatural. The prophecies concerning Jesus are clear and easily verified, yet it seems now that you can't back up your claim of the God of the Bible being like any other god, your curiosity has disappeared.

The Jews would seem to disagree with you there.

How does a prophesy become verified by a story written afterwards that cannot in itself be verified?

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2011, 05:24:36 PM »
Quote
Brakeman stated
Have you asked him for biblical clarity so that you can obey him better, so that you can be righteous in his sight?
You said at one time you were a Christian. You must have learned how people are considered righteous before God.

Quote
Why would god choose one man over the other if it weren't for the mans desire to please god the most? Why would god choose moses for something important over you?
What's more important than your life?

Are you QM?  Why do you always side step every question? You did not answer either question. You are behaving like a troll.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2011, 06:05:45 PM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Whatchamean, I asked questions rather than making a positive claim. If you want to reverse the burden of proof when you are the one claiming God exists, why should any of us take your claim seriously?
Your question asked for reason why the God of the Bible is superior to Vishnu etc. and I gave you a valid answer. Now please support your contention that the false gods you mentioned are equal to my God and please give examples of those gods fortelling events which came true.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Question
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2011, 10:05:15 PM »
Whatchamean is ignoring my requests for proof, and demanding proof from me when I only asked questions. He might be a troll. We still don't know if he is a sock of QM, as he has yet to tell us.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Question
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2011, 11:35:38 PM »
whatchamean?, what you want is for there to be a god. Hence you believe there is. And since all you have is that belief, there is little (make that nothing) that you can say that will convince those of us who are less gullible and less afraid of dying and less convinced that we are all that important. Your job as one version of the One True Christian type is to convince yourself that you are right, and of course you have the advantage of low standards, so you make that part very easy. Convincing the rest of us is far harder. With nothing to work with but your hopes and desperation, you don't come across very impressively. You sound just like a bunch of other christians who have shown up here, each with their own version of reality, often conflicting very much with your own, but just as convinced.

Your willingness to accept anything that even peripherally resembles your hopes as proof that you are right is a weak-brained copout. I've no doubt you are capable of better. Most people are. But like many others that believe, actual thinking ruins everything for you, so you don't bother doing much of it.

Yes, I know, a god that is everywhere certainly isn't going to have time for hobbies, like saving starving children in Darfur or stopping good christian mothers from getting killed in car wrecks. A guy can't be a mosquito carrying malaria or a tetanus bacteria on the lookout for mammals/humans to infest and kill AND stop wars. A god can't be one of those fucking worms that gets in peoples eyeballs in Egypt and blinds than AND provide for the needs hundred of millions of slum dwellers. Your god's infinity is finite, and seeing that in the everything you think he is in must give you pause every once in a while. I know it did me, somewhere around fifty years ago, and I luckily I had senses to come to.

(If there were a god, would he let me end a sentence with a preposition? I don't think so.)

I hope you have senses to come to some day.

Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2011, 09:25:19 PM »
Quote
Brakeman stated
Are you QM?  Why do you always side step every question? You did not answer either question. You are behaving like a troll.
I have never visited your website. I do not know who QM is or what a troll is. I do not side step any question I am asked. If I happen not to answer a question, it would be that I either missed it or dismissed it for being juvenile.
The Bible instructs people to pray for understanding, yet also tells us to study. I have had epiphanies while reading the Bible, but God has ever spoken to me the way He spoke to the prophets.
Why does God choose one man for a certain job? I don't know.

Offline jetson

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Re: Question
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2011, 09:29:41 PM »
Quote
Brakeman stated
Are you QM?  Why do you always side step every question? You did not answer either question. You are behaving like a troll.
I have never visited your website. I do not know who QM is or what a troll is. I do not side step any question I am asked. If I happen not to answer a question, it would be that I either missed it or dismissed it for being juvenile.
The Bible instructs people to pray for understanding, yet also tells us to study. I have had epiphanies while reading the Bible, but God has ever spoken to me the way He spoke to the prophets.
Why does God choose one man for a certain job? I don't know.

I read Revelation last night from the NIV.  Did you have any epiphanies reading Revelation?

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2011, 09:43:08 PM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Whatchamean is ignoring my requests for proof, and demanding proof from me when I only asked questions. He might be a troll. We still don't know if he is a sock of QM, as he has yet to tell us.
I gave you what I consider proof that the God of the Bible is the One true God. Your question also contained comparisons and if can't show that other "gods" have done what my God has done, I must take that as a concession. In my opinion, your position that manuscripts cannot qualify as proof for historical events is absurd. What matters is how credible the writings are. I do not know anyone named QM and have never visited your website under another name.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2011, 09:54:25 PM »
Quote
Brakeman stated
Have you asked him for biblical clarity so that you can obey him better, so that you can be righteous in his sight?
You said at one time you were a Christian. You must have learned how people are considered righteous before God.

Quote
Why would god choose one man over the other if it weren't for the mans desire to please god the most? Why would god choose moses for something important over you?
What's more important than your life?
Nothing is more important than life itself.....dead is dead. Why do Christians always fail to live like Jesus has commanded them to.....jobless,pennyless,homeless and let God take care of you
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2011, 09:55:41 PM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Whatchamean is ignoring my requests for proof, and demanding proof from me when I only asked questions. He might be a troll. We still don't know if he is a sock of QM, as he has yet to tell us.
I gave you what I consider proof that the God of the Bible is the One true God. Your question also contained comparisons and if can't show that other "gods" have done what my God has done, I must take that as a concession. In my opinion, your position that manuscripts cannot qualify as proof for historical events is absurd. What matters is how credible the writings are. I do not know anyone named QM and have never visited your website under another name.
How about all the gods,God himself talks about....he only asks that you put NO god before him,,,,,he never says there are not other gods.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2011, 09:56:06 PM »
Quote
Jetson stated
I read Revelation last night from the NIV.  Did you have any epiphanies reading Revelation?
Yes Jetson I've had 2. One was, "Not all believers are the New Jerusalem." The 2nd one was smaller. In 5:7, the book taken from God by ther Lamb is the book of Revelation itself. 

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2011, 09:58:16 PM »
Quote
curiousgirl stated
Whatchamean, I asked questions rather than making a positive claim. If you want to reverse the burden of proof when you are the one claiming God exists, why should any of us take your claim seriously?
Your question asked for reason why the God of the Bible is superior to Vishnu etc. and I gave you a valid answer. Now please support your contention that the false gods you mentioned are equal to my God and please give examples of those gods fortelling events which came true.
Where is the proof,yours is not a false god....outside the ridiculous books written by a bunch of not too literiate goat herders?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Question
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2011, 10:09:16 PM »
Quote
12 monkeys stated
Nothing is more important than life itself.....dead is dead. Why do Christians always fail to live like Jesus has commanded them to.....jobless,pennyless,homeless and let God take care of you
12 Monkeys, I have atheist friends and co-workers and I they are very decent people. At least they appear that way. I would never imagine one of them going home to their computer and posting things one would expect from an ill mannered child. In fact I've had many discussions with my friends and have learned from them. I was challenged recently by one of my unbelieving friends about the doctrine of eternal hell. He told me that he admired the moral teachings of Jesus, but didn't believe in God because he didn't believe God would torture people for eternity. I'm rethinking my belief in the doctrine of hell which I've believed for many years because of my friends logic.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2011, 10:11:34 PM »
Answer the Question. or do I have to dig out verses that tell you what Jesus expects from you?

 And why exactly are you comparing me to an ill-mannered child?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 10:14:11 PM by 12 Monkeys »
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)