The Return of The Christ

[Truth OT]

Quote from: SERPENT KILLA on Yesterday at 11:39:18 PM
No wonder people say 'world is coming to an end'.

People have been saying that the world is coming to an end since the crazies who faked the book of Daniel. Not one year has passed in the last 2000, when Christians have not predicted the end of the world. The Jehovah's Witless Watchtower is organized to continually keep watching for the end; and they tell their kids not to go to university, because the end is nigh. My bro-in-law, when I met him in 1989 was trying to convince me that the [failed] predictions in Daniel were about to bring about the end of the world very shortly, and that the European Union was the ten headed beast. Now, he still carries around DVDs with observations from some other pundit. He just don't get it.

Judaism 600 years
Christianity 2000 years - AND STILLLLLL WAITING.

I co-opted the quotes from above from another thread because reading it made me reflect back on one of the biggest influences on my thinking that caused me to start questioning my beliefs and seeking out dissenting (sp?) opinions. That issue is the return of Jesus. The vast overwhelming majority of those who teach and claim belief in the scriptures are pointing to the "signs of the times" and attempting to make people believe that the present is somehow what was referred to in the scriptures as the last days.

As I gained interest in this subject (eschatology) and starting paying critical attention to what was written in the scriptural texts about the "last days" and subsequent coming or nearness of Jesus, what I discovered was that the texts are pretty emphatic in declaring that that time was to have occurred within the very generation of Jesus' contemporaries. Initially that was shocking and I found myself trying to explain away that idea, but the more I attempted to do so, the clearer it became that both Jesus and his followers taught, promoted, and believed that the end and his return was to have occurred within their lifetimes.

After becoming convinced by the writings that Jesus and his disciples taught that the end was near and his coming would be a part of it, I began looking for others who had made this discovery and I found basically 2 camps. One camp was made of a group designated as preterists (http://www.preteristarchive.com/index.html), and the others group was made of skeptics that usually were atheists or agnostic. As a believer, I of course began giving credibility to the preterists, but in time I took up issue with the way the preterist stance ultimately "spirualized" away the coming of Jesus despite that the writings that discuss that event seem to paint a quite literal picture of it unfolding.

So I the went into the partial preterist camp and came to the independent conclusion based on my own study that Jesus either was to literally come back in the 1st century or all those who wrote about him did so fraudulently and were wrong. That decision forced me as a person that lended full credibility to the narratives of the Bible as truth to believe with little to no extra-biblical evidence that Jesus actually returned in or around 70ce in judgment of Jerusalem, to raise the dead saints, and that after doing these things he took the saints, (his bride) with him to reign and be with the Father until the consumation of all things when death is ultimately brought to an end. Immediately afterwards, Jesus' Kingdom and reign would be turned over to the Father (God), and then from that point on God would be all and in all. (I got that last idea from 1 Corinthians 15:28 BTW).

But alas, after much searching, debating, rationalizing, and contemplation I have become increasingly convinced that this most pivotable event (Jesus literally returning in the clouds, raising the dead, etc.) never happenned and thus, the house of cards that was my belief in the scripture's credibility came crashing down.


added larger paragraph spaces for easier reading ~Screwtape

[velkyn]

nice post, TOT.   There are a lot of cards that can be yanked to send the whole thing crashing down.

[BaalServant]

TL;DR  : )

No, not your post, Truth OT, just http://www.preteristarchive.com/index.html.  Thanks, though, for the link.  I will make it a point to dig through the site.

The aspect I'm still unable to wrap my mind around, whether from the preterist or posterist point of view, is how one could say that a god is going to save a nation that follows an old covenant, yet also says the only way to him is through a new covenant.

Like velkyn said though, nice post, concise and to the difficult to explain point. 

[gonegolfing]

TOT:

But alas, after much searching, debating, rationalizing, and contemplation I have become increasingly convinced that this most pivotable event (Jesus literally returning in the clouds, raising the dead, etc.) never happenned and thus, the house of cards that was my belief in the scripture's credibility came crashing down.

Well done mate ! It's nice to see you slicing and dicing your way through these different Branches of theological study........Now which house of cards are you going to work on next ?
How about soteriology ? That doctrine is of course THE biggie 

[Truth OT]

Well done mate ! It's nice to see you slicing and dicing your way through these different Branches of theological study........Now which house of cards are you going to work on next ?
How about soteriology ? That doctrine is of course THE biggie 

My belief as it relates to "Savior-ology" was something that was aslo affected by my examination of eschatology. Initially I was walking the party line of Christendom in believing in the Heaven/Hell eternity doctrines, but as a studied eschatology what I slowly came to realize was that those doctrines were, for lack of a better description, built on sand as opposed to a solid rock. As i continued my studies what I saw was that the Messiah/Savior that was to bless the whole world was to be sent first and foremost to save and redeem Israel and that in the end, even after saving all flesh, that it was Israel (spiritual Israel according to Paul) that was to rule with the saviour over the nations that were granted age lasting life through the Messiah. For me, this realization was a bummer because as I stated above, it appears that the scriptures speak of a culmination of all things related to the saviour as having transpired some 2000 years ago. That meant that it the scriptures were to be believed, that my destiny was not to be a part of the "Bride" of the Messiah, but rather that of being one who was given life, age lasting under the reign of Jesus and his bride, Israel. So my hope was that of being a subject in the Kingdom of God under the reign of the Prince of Peace, who would be a benevolent king (and his chosen bride).

[Ivellios]

Even when some JWs came to my house with the "signs of the times" scripture, I replied back with, "If you make an analysis of any timeperiod, you will have the same "signs of the times."

When they disagreed, I explained that due to technology, you just hear about it more.

 JFK had the 1st ever televised presidential debate. All anyone had to do was turn the TV to the correct station. You can watch a series called "The industructibles" which concerns people in horrible accidents that lived to tell the tale. On YouTube you can watch a video of people cheering and going crazy at a Football[1] game and falling off the bleechers into the playing field or just onto those below. A coworker was telling people to "get right with God" after the recent earthquake that affected Japan. Did she mention the earthquakes that were in the 60's in Alaska & Chile that were 2X and 5X as powerful as the earthquake in Japan? Haiti? Indeonesia? 1700's off Washington? Tambora? Krakatoa? Vesuvius? The "little ice age"? The Black Death? Of course not. People think, 'Right now' is the worst that it's ever been.

 "Wars and Rumors of wars" What a joke. Let's take the USA's 200 years, which is only 1/10th of what's gone on since Herod. The Revolution, 1812, Spanish-American, Alamo>Mexican, Civil War, the only "Peace" the USA has ever known, WWI, Depression, WWII, Cold War >>, Korea, Vietnam, Iran-Contra Affair << Cold War ends, Gulf War, Serbia, Korea II[2], Kosovo, "War on Terror" >> Afganistan, Iraq II. I feel like I missed some... About 1 every 10 years or so, with a few lasting more than 10 years. So "Wars and rumors of wars" describes the entire existence of the USA. Rather I should saw, during the entirety of the USA's existence there have always been wars, or rumors of wars. Because somewhere on this Earth, there's someone, or some place at war.

The "signs of the times" are synonymous with human existence. That also helped me break away. When I finally sat down and analyzed many time periods and every crack-pot like Harold Camping.

When I was a gullible christian, when they said that Paul's personal feelings in scripture didn't contradict the Bible, because he admitted it wasn't from God, I believed it. But 2 Timothy 3:16 basically states, every word is from God and not man. There's a reason they don't teach both of those verses at the same time! They clearly want you to forget the first before they teach you the second.

Well, there was a point I was going to make, but I'm now too sleepy to remember. 

Anyways, Kudos Truth OT. For looking at the Bible and analyzing it, instead of keeping the presupposition that every bit of it was inherently true, just because it said so. For understanding what Jesus mean when he said, "There are those in THIS generation[3] who will not pass away..."

1.	Soccer
2.	a rumor that we thought was going to happen while I was in the military.
3.	his audience, not some far off 1948 Jews.

[12 Monkeys]

I knew there was something I liked about you ToT

[violatedsmurf80]

that Jesus actually returned in or around 70ce in judgment of Jerusalem,

This does make a lot of since, considering the fact that the syncope gospels were written around that time, 70 AD was when the then general and future emperor Titus sacked Jerusalem. So of course he came back.

[gonegolfing]

Well done mate ! It's nice to see you slicing and dicing your way through these different Branches of theological study........Now which house of cards are you going to work on next ?
How about soteriology ? That doctrine is of course THE biggie 

My belief as it relates to "Savior-ology" was something that was aslo affected by my examination of eschatology. Initially I was walking the party line of Christendom in believing in the Heaven/Hell eternity doctrines, but as a studied eschatology what I slowly came to realize was that those doctrines were, for lack of a better description, built on sand as opposed to a solid rock. As i continued my studies what I saw was that the Messiah/Savior that was to bless the whole world was to be sent first and foremost to save and redeem Israel and that in the end, even after saving all flesh, that it was Israel (spiritual Israel according to Paul) that was to rule with the saviour over the nations that were granted age lasting life through the Messiah. For me, this realization was a bummer because as I stated above, it appears that the scriptures speak of a culmination of all things related to the saviour as having transpired some 2000 years ago. That meant that it the scriptures were to be believed, that my destiny was not to be a part of the "Bride" of the Messiah, but rather that of being one who was given life, age lasting under the reign of Jesus and his bride, Israel. So my hope was that of being a subject in the Kingdom of God under the reign of the Prince of Peace, who would be a benevolent king (and his chosen bride).

Ah !! Well done again ! It was also my realization, if I may put it this way, that in the grand scheme of things my position in the supposed kingdom was like one of being on the lower decks of an ocean liner that were reserved for the lower class and commoners. 

It's a shame though as the brochure for the journey looked so good, a promised glorious adventure even for plebeians like us, but in fact it was an adventure that was turning out bizarre and oppressive and lacking in its fulfillment.

  Luckily however, and quite astonishingly, there were the most wonderful little one person power life boats on the vessel with the very apropos name on them:--Freedom For All. Many of course, and for various reasons, stayed on the ship, but I and many others who were feeling cramped, mistreated, and very un-free , decide to abandon ship and take our own vessel to the final destination that we desired and that was in our best interest. It was the most wonderful of decisions and most magically beautiful of journeys in that solitary and speedy little vessel.

If I'm not mistaken, that ship that we abandoned is still at sea, and adrift and powerless:--and very strange however, the remaining passengers stubbornly stay on board and refuse to use the delightfully comfortable little vessels designed to save them from the unnecessary predicament that they find themselves in  Perhaps it's the glamour of the ship that keeps them aboard ? ..... As well, it is also rumoured that the captain stubbornly keeps insisting to them that all is well, help is more than likely on the way, and he predicts that they'll be rescued to their destination any time soon, and so it's best that they stay on board ! damn it !!.

Cheers 

[Truth OT]

The aspect I'm still unable to wrap my mind around, whether from the preterist or posterist point of view, is how one could say that a god is going to save a nation that follows an old covenant, yet also says the only way to him is through a new covenant.

Quite the quandry ain't it? Attempts have been made at addressing this issue though, especially from the preterist side that takes the stance that all or most of what was prophesied in scripture was fulfilled by the end of the 1st century.

The idea is that the old, Sinai Covenant was voided or annulled by the children of Israel and a new covenent was established after the Babylonian exile and was initiated at the beginning of the reign of Hezekiah (?). It was Hezekiah that was one of a few different individuals which included both Cyrus and eventually Jesus of Nazareth who were in some capacities Messiahs that served to collectively fulfill the entirety of Jewish Messianic prophesy.

As the first, this new covenant had requirements for the Israelites to abide by as well a punishments were they to nullify the covenant. Long story short, they disobeyed and broke their porion of the covenant and as a result were doomed as a people to face the wrath and judgment of God for their unrighteousness.

In the last days before the judgment of God would be carried out on the people of Judea the last and greatest Messiah, Jesus was sent to proclaim the nearness of the Kingdom of God that the people had been anticipating since the writings of Daniel. Admittance to this kingdom via adherance to the mandates of its God-chosen king, Christ (anointed) Jesus, was to be the people's escape from the soon coming judgment and thus their SALVATION and ultimate fulfillment of the promises made to their forefathers.

In addition, Jesus made special, previously unspoken promises to a select group of his followers for not only "citizenship" in the Kingdom, but also a place of authority within the soon coming Kingdom where they would be able to reign with him and have a place in his Father's House (apparently Heaven) along with him. Prior to Jesus, Heaven or a heavenly inheritance was not promised and may in fact have been a foreign concept to the Israelites.

[jaimehlers]

I never studied the Bible in that depth.  Most of what I know of it came from when I read it as a child[1], or from occasionally reading about things in the Bible as an adult.  So I knew there were contradictions, and unlike most Christians, I never had a vested reason to paper over those contradictions[2].  But I also never had the kind of in-depth knowledge of just how deep those contradictions ran.

1.	Generally because it was less boring than listening to a minister drone on about stuff that didn't affect me.
2.	Some could be reasonably explained, but not all by any means.

[Truth OT]

The OT is long, not just in written length, but also in development and playing out of events depicted through time. When you get to the NT, one thing that jumps out at a reader is the immediacy of it. Jesus begins his ministry by saying the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand and near the conclusion of that ministry he is quoted as saying that the very generation to whom he spoke would not pass away until all the things he spoke of occured. His followers say things like 'today is the day of salvation', they refer to themselves as the people to which the end of the ages have fallen upon, and speak of their time as 'these last days.' The pace of what was to transpire in the NT writings when compared with what is contained in the OT is extremely rush and "now" oriented.

[Joetruth2]

Is it not a christian thing that 144,000 will be raptured at the second coming? If so about 1.3 billion christians are going to be screwed after all those donations, confessions, prayers and meditations. The "elect" are going to party while those 1.3 suffer like dogs. What a plan!

[SERPENT KILLA]

To TOT

I have a question for you.
Did your faith come from God or did it come from studying, debating, and researching.

I am very curious. If I obtained my faith from studying, debating, and researching with my own objective logic, I run into a problem right away.

Virgin Mary gave birth.-----How is it scientifically, possible?

Trinity-----How is it logically and mathematically, possible?

The bible-----Where is the solid evidence?

I just want to know your faith, if you are willing to share.

 

[12 Monkeys]

Is it not a christian thing that 144,000 will be raptured at the second coming? If so about 1.3 billion christians are going to be screwed after all those donations, confessions, prayers and meditations. The "elect" are going to party while those 1.3 suffer like dogs. What a plan!

just think for the 1 billion plus Christians you can be the doorman at the gates of hell.

[Truth OT]

To TOT

I have a question for you.
Did your faith come from God or did it come from studying, debating, and researching.

I am very curious. If I obtained my faith from studying, debating, and researching with my own objective logic, I run into a problem right away.

Virgin Mary gave birth.-----How is it scientifically, possible?

Trinity-----How is it logically and mathematically, possible?

The bible-----Where is the solid evidence?

I just want to know your faith, if you are willing to share.

The foundation of my faith was laid by my environment growing up. My family was Baptist, I went to church, actually paid attention (so much so that everyone thought I was going to be a preacher), and studied the texts mysef from a young age. My studies caused me to leave the Baptist faith and align myself with the Church of Christ for various reasons. As I continued to study and learn (it was definitely a process), I realized that no church actually fit the bill of what was described in the Biblical texts. (when I say church I am refering to the organized religious hierarchial system that separates the lay person from the clergyman).............
After continued study, (and some help), I have arrived were I am now. Now, my faith in virtually everything I place faith in, comes from things that are tangible.

To specifically address your questions:

1. Initially I obtained my faith from people I trusted. (parents, teachers, preachers) I took what they taught me as gospel truth as most children do. As I got older, I began to trust myself and began holding myself more accountable for understanding the truth and at that point my faith was in the Bible and my ability to understand it.

2. I believed miracles were possible, so the virgin birth was not a hang up for me, nor was the resurrection.

3. I have, for a long time believed that the Trinity Doctrine was extra-biblical and therefore I didn't and still don't give much credence to it.

4. As far as the Bible goes, I have always been a fan. As a Christian I of course accepted it as the infallible Word of God and even when I came across issues, I was able to find what I thought were reasonable explanations for those issues. That was the case up until about 2008 when I started really study prophesy. What I then discovered was that unlike I had previously thought, various prophecies did not find the fulfillment one would think prophecies written in a book inspired by an almighty God would.
   After much study and after being challenged I had to accept the fact that the Bible is in fact NOT infallible and that there are places within its pages that have issues. Some I believe are overstated, but even 1 issue disqualifies it from being inspired by God as 1 issue would make it imperfect and not fully trustworthy.

[velkyn]

I just want to know your faith, if you are willing to share.

How cute,  more falseshoods being spoke by a self-professed Christian.  Unfortunately, for you, no, you weren't "just" wanting to know anything.  you just want to declare anyone who disagrees with you isn't a TrueChristian. A little more self-pleasuring, serpent? 

[SERPENT KILLA]

4. As far as the Bible goes, I have always been a fan. As a Christian I of course accepted it as the infallible Word of God and even when I came across issues, I was able to find what I thought were reasonable explanations for those issues. That was the case up until about 2008 when I started really study prophesy. What I then discovered was that unlike I had previously thought, various prophecies did not find the fulfillment one would think prophecies written in a book inspired by an almighty God would.
   After much study and after being challenged I had to accept the fact that the Bible is in fact NOT infallible and that there are places within its pages that have issues. Some I believe are overstated, but even 1 issue disqualifies it from being inspired by God as 1 issue would make it imperfect and not fully trustworthy.

Thank you for your answers.

One more question, if you don't mind.

When the most devoted Israelites(they obviously mastered the word of God)met Jesus, they rejected Him.  They thought they were the only 'Chosen people', but they were wrong.
Eventhough in the book of Genesis " Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him."(Genesis 18:18).  Israelites were unable to recognize their 'Messiah'.

Was it because of biblical contradition? or they just didn't study God's word hard enough?

What do you think?

[velkyn]

I wonder, SK, perhaps you didn't study God's word enough to see how JC didn't fulfill the Jews' prophecies?

For your review: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/ 

[Finntroll]

I grew up in a typical Finnish lutheran home, which means there is some kind of blurred faith but it is still very secular. So trough childhood, school religion classes, even the mandatory church confirmation school when I was 15, I honestly never remember hearing that the world is supposed to end and Jesus is coming back!

I knew Jehova's Wittnesses had some "Ármageddon"-thing but everybody thought they were idiots.

It was not until the Finnish Army service at 20, when a pentecostal-oriented roommate told me that it is a part of all Christianity. And I was like dude, are you serious?

[Truth OT]

One more question, if you don't mind.

When the most devoted Israelites(they obviously mastered the word of God)met Jesus, they rejected Him.  They thought they were the only 'Chosen people', but they were wrong.
Eventhough in the book of Genesis " Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him."(Genesis 18:18).  Israelites were unable to recognize their 'Messiah'.

Was it because of biblical contradition? or they just didn't study God's word hard enough?

What do you think?

SK, I can't think of it now, but I swear I read a question almost similar to this before somewhere else. Kinda sounds like a talking point, but anyway......

First, why assume that those that opposed Jesus were "masters" of the Word of God? In addition,according to the narratives, the rejection of Jesus was not universal among the priesthood. Nicodemus as well as Simeon did not reject him. So some accepted their Messiah while others did not. A reason why many may no have accepted him is perhaps because the scriptures didn't paint a clear picture of the Messiah at all. In fact, various Messiah's were seemingly prophesied. Some realized this, while others looked for the full Messianic fulfillment in a single individual. There was no concensus as to what to expect.
The verse you quoted from Genesis was very likely thought to be a reference to the Israelite people as a whole as opposed to their Messiah. Were it not for Paul declaring that it was a reference to Jesus in Romans, I doubt that we would see it any differently than they did. 

[SERPENT KILLA]

Thank you for your honest answer.

When I read the book of John, it said "This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
“Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”(Isaiah 53:1)
For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”(Isaiah 6:10)

Sometimes we can not understand the entire message or the prophecies in the bible.
Sometimes God even hides it from us for his own purpose.

So I just wanted to share with you, even if we don't fully understand the word of God, or it even sounds imperfect, but that doesn't mean it is not perfect.

I can clearly tell you have far more and better understanding of the bible than me.
So keep up your prayer for clearer understanding of God's word.
So it maybe perfectly clear.

[RaymondKHessel]

Sometimes we can not understand the entire message or the prophecies in the bible.
Sometimes God even hides it from us for his own purpose.

Sounds like your god is a real dick. What the hell is the point of including it in the book in the first place if your space genie wants to HIDE s**t from you? Wouldn't it make more sense to just, you know, NOT INCLUDE IT?

Do you worship some kind of trickster god, like Loki? What kind of shady-ass, secretive deity is this!?

DERP.

The whole point of the book is to enlighten it's followers. And you're seriously gonna sit there with a straight face and suggest that the parts that are completely impenetrable and next to impossible to understand are there to be HIDDEN?

Do you ever stop and LISTEN to yourself?

Could it possibly be that you don't get it simply because you're not a 2,000 year old goat herder living in the desert and neck-deep in ancient Jewish politics?

Holy s**t are you dense lady.

So I just wanted to share with you, even if we don't fully understand the word of God, or it even sounds imperfect, but that doesn't mean it is not perfect.

Uh, yeah it does. That's what "perfect" means. If it was actually "perfect", by definition it wouldn't be able to appear flawed.

I can clearly tell you have far more and better understanding of the bible than me.

Yeah he does, as do most of the people on this site. More importantly, he's simply a hell of a lot more intelligent than you, period.

So keep up your prayer for clearer understanding of God's word.
So it maybe perfectly clear.

Please don't encourage her, TOT. She's going to end up setting herself on fire or something. 

[Brakeman]

As you know, we massively multicellular and we have body cells dying all the time. You can't even touch a human being without killing some cells. So with that in mind, what about the massive amounts of cells that came off Jesus and the holy prophets during their lifetime, shouldn't we be getting some major benefits from contact with them? Have you thought about the likelihood that you have had some water molecules or some carbon molecules that are from christ's body?

Shouldn't that do something?

[velkyn]

Sometimes we can not understand the entire message or the prophecies in the bible. Sometimes God even hides it from us for his own purpose.

  So, how do you know the prophecies were fulfilled if you can’t understand them?  Oh yes, it’s because Christians like you pick and choose what you want to claim that you know God “really” meant.  Then when faced with hard questions, suddenly God gets all mysterious and you can claim ignorance.  How convenient!  Honestly, if you are the best this god can come up with to talk to atheists, it’s not very swift. 

So I just wanted to share with you, even if we don't fully understand the word of God, or it even sounds imperfect, but that doesn't mean it is not perfect.

BWaahahaaaaa.    And it’s so cute that you keep telling us to pray for a “clearer understanding”.  Funny how this only means that you really really hope that your bogeyman makes people agree with you and nothing else.