Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 23876 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #754 on: December 22, 2011, 12:40:13 AM »

At the top of the page, it lists who is viewing.  It's you and me Hatter23.  Let's do this!!!! 

Personality characteristics are what they are.  God, friends; do your friends see what the same characteristics are in mutual friends?  Or do you have your own perceptions?

There will be minor variations, yes. The better a few know a person, the dearer they are to them, the less variation you will find in their description.

However with the God entity, the opposite is true. The more a relationship is claimed...the more extreme the variations in the opinion.

With that in mind, once again how do you assert any characteristic of an intangible invisible thing, "god" as true?

What you say is true, but all of our friends function on our level.  I believe that God is quite a bit above the level of our friends.

I can't relate to your premise of the "God Entity".  What is that?

Also, I disagree that God is invisible, you can find Him in the Bible.

God entity, the almighty creator of the the Universe. Might be the one described in any holy book, including the one you believe in. I am using the term to separate the conceptual "god" from Yahweh specifically.

And just because this Yahweh is mentioned in a book neither makes him real, nor does it make him visible, or do you actually see an walking talking entity that speaks to you claiming to be Yahweh?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline kin hell

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5378
  • Darwins +152/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • - .... . .-. . /.. ... / -. --- / --. --- -.. ...
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #755 on: December 22, 2011, 12:41:39 AM »
jtp56

do you still claim that a drop is not a unit of measurement?

I am asking politely.

A drop is a unit of measurement.  Given the web site pastes I'll agree as a matter of discussion.


Before I address anything else, does that acknowledgement above mean that you recant your original claim that a drop is not a unit of measurement?

....again I ask politely.


jtp56

I'm just bumping this because I know you wouldn't be dodging answering it, so you must have missed it the first time.

(I mention this in the interest of politeness)
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline MadBunny

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3561
  • Darwins +110/-0
  • Fallen Illuminatus
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #756 on: December 22, 2011, 01:14:12 AM »
God entity, the almighty creator of the the Universe. Might be the one described in any holy book, including the one you believe in. I am using the term to separate the conceptual "god" from Yahweh specifically.

And just because this Yahweh is mentioned in a book neither makes him real, nor does it make him visible, or do you actually see an walking talking entity that speaks to you claiming to be Yahweh?

I have to wonder at whether or not people truly accept the argument of "it's in the book therefore it must be true".

http://tinyurl.com/cbehyju

If only for the simple reason that OTHER religions have books too, notwithstanding the Church of Legolas.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Rustybeatz

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Darwins +3/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #757 on: December 22, 2011, 02:16:09 AM »
If God promises something, He will keep His promise.  It's obvious in the OT that the Israelites did not always keep their part of the covenant.  Yes God said Iron Chariot's won't stop you, yet they stopped Judah from taking a mountain promised to Caleb.  It's not a matter of Iron Chariots.  God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper and come to maturity.

(my bold)
ok jtp, I have a question regarding this statement.  You state above that god promised that everything christians put their hands on will prosper.  Everything, to me, means everything, as in every single time in every single instance (let me know if your definition differs).  Now, my parents started a christian church about 12 years ago.  They were attending a church for a number of years and said they felt that god told them to start their own, so they did.  They even got permission to use the name of a, what I like to call, corporate church - The Vineyard.  It's been 12 years and they haven't grown at all, even though other Vineyard churches boast huge congregations.  It seems like it would be an easy task for god to grow this church into something big since my parents are putting their hands to it.  Why do you think that is?

How should I know!?, What does it matter to you?  Do you even care?  How about the people supporting them financially and in prayer, do you care?  Are you praying for them?

What do you mean, how should you know?  It's your god and you just stated that everything a christian puts their hands to will prosper.  So, why isn't their church prospering?  It's a simple question, please answer it.  It should be as easy to answer as the phrase "God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper ".  They've been struggling since day one.  As far as it mattering to me, it matters to me because it's something that family is involved in.  However, your other questions regarding who is financially supporting them, etc make no sense to me.  Why would I be concerned with that?  Also, I don't believe in prayer so, no, I do not pray for those people.

First of all it's not "my God".  "All knees will bow and all will confess that Jesus is Lord".  The point I was making was how people construe scripture.  Why Judah didn't get the mountain.  Is your parents church a bad thing?  By their church not prospering, what do you mean?  What is your vision of their church prospering vs. theirs?  How do they/you describe struggling?

Well, what I meant by your god was not that you own him, more that he's yours in that you follow him.  No, their church isn't a bad thing, per se.  By prospering, I'm talking about growth in the church - more members, being able to offer more things for their members, etc.

I am not a counselor by any means, but, if they see themselves as failing/struggling rather than doing what Jesus told them, they should get a job.

And that's the thing, they felt like they were/are doing what god "told" them to do.  They said god told them to start a Vineyard church and it would be equal to the one of the Vineyards in Houston (which is coincidentally where my sister and her husband go to church).  And yet, nada.  Wouldn't God want a church to fulfill blessings that he promised, which would be that it would prosper and become mature because christians have theirs hands on it?

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #758 on: December 22, 2011, 05:14:40 AM »
To add to Rustybeatz post.....

Jtp, you said:
If God promises something, He will keep His promise......
God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper and come to maturity.

That's fairly black and white - you're saying that what we put effort into will prosper.

Rusty has said that:
...my parents started a christian church about 12 years ago.  They were attending a church for a number of years and said they felt that god told them to start their own, so they did.....It's been 12 years and they haven't grown at all.....They've been struggling since day one.

Again, pretty straightforward question - some Christians have put effort into something, and it has NOT "prosper(ed) and come to maturity" as you said your god promised.

Rusty's question was why your assertion that "God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper and come to maturity" has NOT happened.

There were many answers you could have given.
You could have said that your original assertion was incorrect, or incomplete.
You could have said "it will.....just give it time".
You could have said "they are not True Christian, so god's promise does not apply."

But instead you said this...
I am not a counselor by any means, but, if they see themselves as failing/struggling rather than doing what Jesus told them, they should get a job.
...which completely ignores Rusty's question....and seems (perhaps) to contain a veiled insult as well.

For what its worth, I had felt myself more on your side as regards the "drops" argument - but your response to Rusty does appear to give credence to the accusations made against you about dodging and refusing to accept that statements you make may be wrong.  That said, I can see where this thread may have pushed your buttons to the extent that you couldn't be bothered to try to answer Rusty's question.

So it's down to you, I guess.  You asserted that "God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper and come to maturity."  Rusty has given a clear example where this assertion appears to be incorrect.  I'm hoping you will be able to give a direct response to his point.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline kin hell

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5378
  • Darwins +152/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • - .... . .-. . /.. ... / -. --- / --. --- -.. ...
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #759 on: December 22, 2011, 10:21:33 AM »


For what its worth, I had felt myself more on your side as regards the "drops" argument - but your response to Rusty does appear to give credence to the accusations made against you about dodging and refusing to accept that statements you make may be wrong.  That said, I can see where this thread may have pushed your buttons to the extent that you couldn't be bothered to try to answer Rusty's question.



Anfauglir, I'd like to clarify my persistence in regards to what in essence is a seeming quibble over trivia.

I do this in the interest accuracy.

jtp56 first made the erronous claim "a drop is not a unit of measurement" back in September.

He made it again in another thread in October by which time he had already established himself as a problematic irritant on this forum.

In ~30 posts back then, he’d already amassed 16 smites from 11 different smiters, since then he has managed to claim first place on the most smited leader board in very short time.

I’m not happy necessarily about this (you would see if you were interested enough to check, that I have never smited him), but given the broad range of smiters and the thematic nature of the stated causes for smiting, jtp56 is without doubt a less than straight poster on this forum.

I originally posted a scathing reply to his october post of

>snip<

Oh.  I forgot.   It's taught in the public school system.  You know, "Science".  Why would anyone disagree with what's taught in the public school system.  Remember....one drop plus one drop is one drop... wow....that clears things up.   Note to you scientists out there:  One drop is not an internationally recognized unit of mearure.
my bold

 I had been following jtp56 since he’d arrived on site, and I was by then (and still am) convinced that he is an intelligent, deliberately provocative and sly person.

And I attacked his stupidly incorrect claim in the same mocking and condescending tone with which he has been irritating many members of this forum.

The only difference was that I offered an irrefutable proof of his error.

He of course dodged reply, as he has always done.

I did not follow his dodging up apart from the occasional (no doubt abrasive) request/demand for him to acknowledge the correction. He dodged all such requests.

So I watched for the past two months as he amassed more smitings for the same style of slippery obfuscatory and sly postings, and finally I’d had enough and decided to put his deceit on display.

Did he behave as I expected?
Yes, at my persistence, for all to witness, to this moment, he is still dodging something like months and 150+ posts later.

So why did I pursue this?

Just so that what was obvious to me, jtp56’s real nature and practised behaviour, his intentional lack of fidelity honesty or integrity became exposed by his actions,  so that the forum is made aware of what they are actually dealing with.

DaveDave said something like  “it is surely a lesser evil to call someone names than to be deserving of them”, and I have been instructed to not call names, but I declare that jtp56 is a knowing and deliberate practitioner of disingenuousness (by omission at minimum), and I am not calling names, but making a verifiable statement of fact.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 10:32:02 AM by kin hell »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Rustybeatz

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • Darwins +3/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #760 on: December 23, 2011, 06:30:14 PM »
To add to Rustybeatz post.....

Jtp, you said:
If God promises something, He will keep His promise......
God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper and come to maturity.

That's fairly black and white - you're saying that what we put effort into will prosper.

Rusty has said that:
...my parents started a christian church about 12 years ago.  They were attending a church for a number of years and said they felt that god told them to start their own, so they did.....It's been 12 years and they haven't grown at all.....They've been struggling since day one.

Again, pretty straightforward question - some Christians have put effort into something, and it has NOT "prosper(ed) and come to maturity" as you said your god promised.

Rusty's question was why your assertion that "God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper and come to maturity" has NOT happened.

There were many answers you could have given.
You could have said that your original assertion was incorrect, or incomplete.
You could have said "it will.....just give it time".
You could have said "they are not True Christian, so god's promise does not apply."

But instead you said this...
I am not a counselor by any means, but, if they see themselves as failing/struggling rather than doing what Jesus told them, they should get a job.
...which completely ignores Rusty's question....and seems (perhaps) to contain a veiled insult as well.

For what its worth, I had felt myself more on your side as regards the "drops" argument - but your response to Rusty does appear to give credence to the accusations made against you about dodging and refusing to accept that statements you make may be wrong.  That said, I can see where this thread may have pushed your buttons to the extent that you couldn't be bothered to try to answer Rusty's question.

So it's down to you, I guess.  You asserted that "God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper and come to maturity."  Rusty has given a clear example where this assertion appears to be incorrect.  I'm hoping you will be able to give a direct response to his point.

Anfauglir, thank you for the rephrasing.  You said what I was trying to say, but in a more succinct manner.  Thanks!

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6572
  • Darwins +509/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #761 on: December 23, 2011, 08:40:04 PM »
There is only one God, and He is in the Bible if you truly want to know Him.
Ex:20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Yahweh here accepts that there are other gods.

Here is a brief list of only a few of the many gods other than the god Yahweh who are mentioned by name and described as "gods" in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures:
 
Astroloth - Judges 2:13, Samuel 7:3-4
Baal - 2 Samuel 2:8; 1 Kings 17:1, 18:17-19; 2 Kings 1:2-5; Jeremiah 9:13-16; Hoseah2:2-13, 14-22

Baal-zebul - 2 Kings 1:2-5 also known as Beelzebul - Mark 3:22

Bel - Isaiah 46:1-4 (also in apochraphal chapters removed from Daniel)

Chemosh - Numbers 21:29, Judges 11:24

"Day Star" and Dawn - Isaiah 14:12-15

Hadad-rimmon - Zechariah 12:11

Ishtar* - Jeremiah 44:15-28

Marduk - Jeremiah 50:2-3

Milkom - 2 Samuel 12:30

Nabu - Isaiah 46:1-4

Sakkuth and Kaiwan - Amos 5:26

Tammuz - Isaiah 17:9-11; Ezekiel 8:14-18; Daniel 11:36-39

*better known as Asherah “The Queen of Heaven” Asherah poles or ‘groves’ are mentioned in Exodus, Deuteronomy, Judges, Kings, Chronicles, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah.

There is an interesting piece of pottery that is inscribed, "To Yahweh and his Asherah" The informed opinion is that Ashera was Yahweh's wife. However, King Jehoram was a rabid Yahwist and banned all other gods through Jeremiah.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 08:53:01 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline jtp56

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
  • Darwins +4/-66
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #762 on: December 30, 2011, 06:07:25 PM »


For what its worth, I had felt myself more on your side as regards the "drops" argument - but your response to Rusty does appear to give credence to the accusations made against you about dodging and refusing to accept that statements you make may be wrong.  That said, I can see where this thread may have pushed your buttons to the extent that you couldn't be bothered to try to answer Rusty's question.



Anfauglir, I'd like to clarify my persistence in regards to what in essence is a seeming quibble over trivia.

I do this in the interest accuracy.

jtp56 first made the erronous claim "a drop is not a unit of measurement" back in September.

He made it again in another thread in October by which time he had already established himself as a problematic irritant on this forum.

In ~30 posts back then, he’d already amassed 16 smites from 11 different smiters, since then he has managed to claim first place on the most smited leader board in very short time.

I’m not happy necessarily about this (you would see if you were interested enough to check, that I have never smited him), but given the broad range of smiters and the thematic nature of the stated causes for smiting, jtp56 is without doubt a less than straight poster on this forum.

I originally posted a scathing reply to his october post of

>snip<

Oh.  I forgot.   It's taught in the public school system.  You know, "Science".  Why would anyone disagree with what's taught in the public school system.  Remember....one drop plus one drop is one drop... wow....that clears things up.   Note to you scientists out there:  One drop is not an internationally recognized unit of mearure.
my bold

 I had been following jtp56 since he’d arrived on site, and I was by then (and still am) convinced that he is an intelligent, deliberately provocative and sly person.

And I attacked his stupidly incorrect claim in the same mocking and condescending tone with which he has been irritating many members of this forum.

The only difference was that I offered an irrefutable proof of his error.

He of course dodged reply, as he has always done.

I did not follow his dodging up apart from the occasional (no doubt abrasive) request/demand for him to acknowledge the correction. He dodged all such requests.

So I watched for the past two months as he amassed more smitings for the same style of slippery obfuscatory and sly postings, and finally I’d had enough and decided to put his deceit on display.

Did he behave as I expected?
Yes, at my persistence, for all to witness, to this moment, he is still dodging something like months and 150+ posts later.

So why did I pursue this?

Just so that what was obvious to me, jtp56’s real nature and practised behaviour, his intentional lack of fidelity honesty or integrity became exposed by his actions,  so that the forum is made aware of what they are actually dealing with.

DaveDave said something like  “it is surely a lesser evil to call someone names than to be deserving of them”, and I have been instructed to not call names, but I declare that jtp56 is a knowing and deliberate practitioner of disingenuousness (by omission at minimum), and I am not calling names, but making a verifiable statement of fact.

The base SI unit for the amount of a substance is the mole.  Any other unit of measure for an amount of liquid substance depends upon density, viscosity, mass, etc. at a given temperature and pressure.  Recall the "drop conversion" was defined as pure water out of a dropper with such and such dimensions at such and such pressure was 0.05ml (different from other pasted replies to my arguments, but I didn't argue with the 0.05ml if you recall).  The point I was trying to make was totally ignored!  That kids in 2nd grade are taught in math that 1 plus 1 does not necessarily equal 2; that the example given is 1 drop plus 1 drop still equals one drop.  My point was this is bad teaching.  You guys got all hot and bothered about what a drop was.

Expanding on my point; if 1+1 does not necessarily equal 2, then how can any scientific endeavor be true?  That is if it uses math to quantify it?, such as refrigeration, electricity, etc.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline kin hell

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5378
  • Darwins +152/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • - .... . .-. . /.. ... / -. --- / --. --- -.. ...
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #763 on: December 30, 2011, 08:03:30 PM »
jtp56 .......wonderful rewrite of history.

I'm so happy for you that you now have another accuracy to dodge.

Whereas you were previously dishonestly dodging acknowledging the absolute error of your claim "a drop is not a unit of measurement", now,
.....Oh boring predictable joy! you can waste more of your life on trying to deny that you were ever dodging by pretending it never happened.

"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline jtp56

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
  • Darwins +4/-66
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #764 on: December 30, 2011, 08:18:17 PM »
jtp56 .......wonderful rewrite of history.

I'm so happy for you that you now have another accuracy to dodge.

Whereas you were previously dishonestly dodging acknowledging the absolute error of your claim "a drop is not a unit of measurement", now,
.....Oh boring predictable joy! you can waste more of your life on trying to deny that you were ever dodging by pretending it never happened.

I apologize kin hell.  I wasn't trying to be dishonest.  You have to believe me that I'm trying to make you think from a scientific perspective.  A drop, ml, oz, whatever, is not the base internationally accepted unit of "amount of matter".

I do admit to playing with you guys, if your looking for the Higgs Boson, you need to know what a drop is.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline rickymooston

Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #765 on: December 30, 2011, 09:18:39 PM »
I have a secret to share to you all.

Given that you only quote 2 verses of the bible, its hardly a secret. I've no clue if your theology is correct. It sounds along the free will angle which seems to be dicey. I've heard that even wars were fought about this issue but who am I to know.

Now, if you are right and only God can save us, why do you preach the gospel? And why is it helpful for me to know that only God can save me?

No evidence for God? We definitely agree which is why we are varying sorts of atheists.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #766 on: December 31, 2011, 02:31:32 AM »
I do admit to playing with you guys, if your looking for the Higgs Boson, you need to know what a drop is.

Sorry - are you admitting to trolling?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?