Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 22228 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #725 on: December 21, 2011, 10:27:00 PM »
I have covered that point above. I'm sure that jtp56 realises his error but "There are none as blind as those who will not see."

GB
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline kin hell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #726 on: December 21, 2011, 10:35:25 PM »
I have covered that point above. I'm sure that jtp56 realises his error but "There are none as blind as those who will not see."

GB


Without meaning to be problematic

Is it appropriate to seek further clarification GB ?

....if it is appropriate my question is 
 Is not the deliberate refusal to admit a proven error dodging?

.....if it is not appropriate could you please instruct me on how/where I can ask that question, as it appears central to the idea of civilised discussion that I should be able to expect acknowledgement of obvious points, otherwise we are stripped of any rational base on which to argue any point whatsoever.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #727 on: December 21, 2011, 10:36:55 PM »

I read the posts.  That's why I posted the 1/12 vs 1/20.  Was there something else posted more precise that I missed?
you were given a direct response to a direct question. If you find that someone else's work to answer your question is insufficient, take the time to educate yourself rather than relying on this forum to do it for you.

Quote
"Kiss ass" in my opinion is different than worship.   
Please explain in clear and concise term the difference between "ass-kissing" and "worship"

Quote
I haven't reached the level of enlightenment of today's homosexuals.
This appears to be an attack on homosexuals. Not really sure why that gets you off, but hey, whatever.
Quote
However, kiss ass is not required according to the Bible (Thank God).
That is only true if you can establish the difference between ass kissing and worship.
Quote
I'd rather be the bottom scum in the lowest sewer pipe in heaven than the ruler of hell.
Heaven being such a wonderful place, I'm sure there are sewers just everywhere. Because non-corporeal beings need to relieve their bodies of waste, right? Some might say that it's better to rule than hell than serve in heaven.

Quote
If this is really meant to be the place of "honest" discussion,  then give me the the conversion of drop into ml!

From http://convert-to.com/conversion/volume/convert-drop-to-ml.html
1 drop of water (drop) = 0.05 milliliters (ml) (which also happens to be 1/20 of a milliliter).

Now, please show me how incantations and animal blood can cure leprosy.

I thought that was the purpose for these posts!  To educate each other!

If one drop = 0.05 ml, I'll accept that.  I was going on the post that 1/12 or 1/20th is a drop, which, by the way makes 1/20th correct!  kin hell pasted a site that stated either or....  You found a website that nails it (although I believe ken hells - it depends on the viscosity and method of distribution). 

So.  One drop = 0.05 or 1/20 of a ml.  That tells us what?  We sell drugs vs. giving?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #728 on: December 21, 2011, 10:39:59 PM »
So, back to the basic premise I started with in this whole "drop" argument.  Does 0.05 ml plus 0.05 ml equal 0.05 ml?  Does one drop plus one drop equal one drop?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Rustybeatz

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #729 on: December 21, 2011, 10:46:34 PM »
If God promises something, He will keep His promise.  It's obvious in the OT that the Israelites did not always keep their part of the covenant.  Yes God said Iron Chariot's won't stop you, yet they stopped Judah from taking a mountain promised to Caleb.  It's not a matter of Iron Chariots.  God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper and come to maturity.

(my bold)
ok jtp, I have a question regarding this statement.  You state above that god promised that everything christians put their hands on will prosper.  Everything, to me, means everything, as in every single time in every single instance (let me know if your definition differs).  Now, my parents started a christian church about 12 years ago.  They were attending a church for a number of years and said they felt that god told them to start their own, so they did.  They even got permission to use the name of a, what I like to call, corporate church - The Vineyard.  It's been 12 years and they haven't grown at all, even though other Vineyard churches boast huge congregations.  It seems like it would be an easy task for god to grow this church into something big since my parents are putting their hands to it.  Why do you think that is?

Offline Azdgari

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #730 on: December 21, 2011, 10:47:47 PM »
So, back to the basic premise I started with in this whole "drop" argument.  Does 0.05 ml plus 0.05 ml equal 0.05 ml?  Does one drop plus one drop equal one drop?

^^ If you genuinely wanted that line of reasoning to be addressed, then you would have responded to my earlier reply:

So you agree, 1+1 can equal 1?

In the sense that it can physically happen, yes.  Two drops of the size that falls normally from some instrument in question, can combine to produce a larger drop that cannot fall normally from that instrument.  It is the former size of drop that would actually be used, not the latter.

Similarly, 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 1.  Right?  I mean, add 10 mililitres together and you get 1 decilitre.

Is there a problem with that?

But, you didn't...
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #731 on: December 21, 2011, 10:49:55 PM »
I have covered that point above. I'm sure that jtp56 realises his error but "There are none as blind as those who will not see."

GB


Huh, I covered your points and proved them wrong.. So there!   WTF?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #732 on: December 21, 2011, 10:59:42 PM »
If God promises something, He will keep His promise.  It's obvious in the OT that the Israelites did not always keep their part of the covenant.  Yes God said Iron Chariot's won't stop you, yet they stopped Judah from taking a mountain promised to Caleb.  It's not a matter of Iron Chariots.  God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper and come to maturity.

(my bold)
ok jtp, I have a question regarding this statement.  You state above that god promised that everything christians put their hands on will prosper.  Everything, to me, means everything, as in every single time in every single instance (let me know if your definition differs).  Now, my parents started a christian church about 12 years ago.  They were attending a church for a number of years and said they felt that god told them to start their own, so they did.  They even got permission to use the name of a, what I like to call, corporate church - The Vineyard.  It's been 12 years and they haven't grown at all, even though other Vineyard churches boast huge congregations.  It seems like it would be an easy task for god to grow this church into something big since my parents are putting their hands to it.  Why do you think that is?

How should I know!?, What does it matter to you?  Do you even care?  How about the people supporting them financially and in prayer, do you care?  Are you praying for them?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #733 on: December 21, 2011, 11:03:18 PM »
So, back to the basic premise I started with in this whole "drop" argument.  Does 0.05 ml plus 0.05 ml equal 0.05 ml?  Does one drop plus one drop equal one drop?

^^ If you genuinely wanted that line of reasoning to be addressed, then you would have responded to my earlier reply:

So you agree, 1+1 can equal 1?

In the sense that it can physically happen, yes.  Two drops of the size that falls normally from some instrument in question, can combine to produce a larger drop that cannot fall normally from that instrument.  It is the former size of drop that would actually be used, not the latter.

Similarly, 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 1.  Right?  I mean, add 10 mililitres together and you get 1 decilitre.

Is there a problem with that?

But, you didn't...

Come on!  Your going to argue (amongst champions of science) that 1+1+1+1+1+1=1??????
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #734 on: December 21, 2011, 11:08:28 PM »
Come on!  Your going to argue (amongst champions of science) that 1+1+1+1+1+1=1??????

I see you aren't going to respond to the actual contents of my post this time, either.  Ahh well.  It's not a particularly brave or honest concession of the point on your part, but I suppose it'll have to do.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Rustybeatz

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #735 on: December 21, 2011, 11:11:37 PM »
If God promises something, He will keep His promise.  It's obvious in the OT that the Israelites did not always keep their part of the covenant.  Yes God said Iron Chariot's won't stop you, yet they stopped Judah from taking a mountain promised to Caleb.  It's not a matter of Iron Chariots.  God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper and come to maturity.

(my bold)
ok jtp, I have a question regarding this statement.  You state above that god promised that everything christians put their hands on will prosper.  Everything, to me, means everything, as in every single time in every single instance (let me know if your definition differs).  Now, my parents started a christian church about 12 years ago.  They were attending a church for a number of years and said they felt that god told them to start their own, so they did.  They even got permission to use the name of a, what I like to call, corporate church - The Vineyard.  It's been 12 years and they haven't grown at all, even though other Vineyard churches boast huge congregations.  It seems like it would be an easy task for god to grow this church into something big since my parents are putting their hands to it.  Why do you think that is?

How should I know!?, What does it matter to you?  Do you even care?  How about the people supporting them financially and in prayer, do you care?  Are you praying for them?

What do you mean, how should you know?  It's your god and you just stated that everything a christian puts their hands to will prosper.  So, why isn't their church prospering?  It's a simple question, please answer it.  It should be as easy to answer as the phrase "God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper ".  They've been struggling since day one.  As far as it mattering to me, it matters to me because it's something that family is involved in.  However, your other questions regarding who is financially supporting them, etc make no sense to me.  Why would I be concerned with that?  Also, I don't believe in prayer so, no, I do not pray for those people.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #736 on: December 21, 2011, 11:23:06 PM »
Come on!  Your going to argue (amongst champions of science) that 1+1+1+1+1+1=1??????

I see you aren't going to respond to the actual contents of my post this time, either.  Ahh well.  It's not a particularly brave or honest concession of the point on your part, but I suppose it'll have to do.

OK, what is a "brave or honest concession"?  Tell me the point or my misunderstanding of your point.  No slam here; it's just that the foundation of beliefs between us (believers/atheist) is so radical it invites confusion of points.  What is the premise of our difference in beliefs (atheists that is, you may not be an atheist)?"
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #737 on: December 21, 2011, 11:35:42 PM »
If God promises something, He will keep His promise.  It's obvious in the OT that the Israelites did not always keep their part of the covenant.  Yes God said Iron Chariot's won't stop you, yet they stopped Judah from taking a mountain promised to Caleb.  It's not a matter of Iron Chariots.  God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper and come to maturity.

(my bold)
ok jtp, I have a question regarding this statement.  You state above that god promised that everything christians put their hands on will prosper.  Everything, to me, means everything, as in every single time in every single instance (let me know if your definition differs).  Now, my parents started a christian church about 12 years ago.  They were attending a church for a number of years and said they felt that god told them to start their own, so they did.  They even got permission to use the name of a, what I like to call, corporate church - The Vineyard.  It's been 12 years and they haven't grown at all, even though other Vineyard churches boast huge congregations.  It seems like it would be an easy task for god to grow this church into something big since my parents are putting their hands to it.  Why do you think that is?

How should I know!?, What does it matter to you?  Do you even care?  How about the people supporting them financially and in prayer, do you care?  Are you praying for them?

What do you mean, how should you know?  It's your god and you just stated that everything a christian puts their hands to will prosper.  So, why isn't their church prospering?  It's a simple question, please answer it.  It should be as easy to answer as the phrase "God promised us that everything we put our hands to will prosper ".  They've been struggling since day one.  As far as it mattering to me, it matters to me because it's something that family is involved in.  However, your other questions regarding who is financially supporting them, etc make no sense to me.  Why would I be concerned with that?  Also, I don't believe in prayer so, no, I do not pray for those people.

First of all it's not "my God".  "All knees will bow and all will confess that Jesus is Lord".  The point I was making was how people construe scripture.  Why Judah didn't get the mountain.  Is your parents church a bad thing?  By their church not prospering, what do you mean?  What is your vision of their church prospering vs. theirs?  How do they/you describe struggling?  I am not a counselor by any means, but, if they see themselves as failing/struggling rather than doing what Jesus told them, they should get a job.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Online One Above All

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #738 on: December 21, 2011, 11:41:28 PM »
First of all it's not "my God".  "All knees will bow and all will confess that Jesus is Lord".

Evidence for your god's existence?
Evidence for the wild claim?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline kin hell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #739 on: December 21, 2011, 11:47:37 PM »
jtp56

do you still claim that a drop is not a unit of measurement?

I am asking politely.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #740 on: December 21, 2011, 11:50:27 PM »
First of all it's not "my God".  "All knees will bow and all will confess that Jesus is Lord".

Evidence for your god's existence?
Evidence for the wild claim?

Again I confess, I posted hastily.  Jesus is my Lord.  Jesus is my God.  I took "my god" from a different (non-believers) perspective.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Online One Above All

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #741 on: December 21, 2011, 11:53:59 PM »
Again I confess, I posted hastily.  Jesus is my Lord.  Jesus is my God.  I took "my god" from a different (non-believers) perspective.

Clearly not. You took it from your own perspective. We say "your god" because there are literally thousands of gods people believe in. You believe yours to be the only one, hence your reply.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #742 on: December 21, 2011, 11:58:51 PM »
jtp56

do you still claim that a drop is not a unit of measurement?

I am asking politely.

A drop is a unit of measurement.  Given the web site pastes I'll agree as a matter of discussion.

But then, my question for you therefore is: does 0.05ml + 0.05ml (the conversion pasted and your slam dunk argument) equal to 0.05ml?  The point of my original argument?

Does one drop plus one drop equal to one drop?  Do you agree with that?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Online One Above All

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #743 on: December 22, 2011, 12:03:06 AM »
But then, my question for you therefore is: does 0.05ml + 0.05ml (the conversion pasted and your slam dunk argument) equal to 0.05ml?

Does one drop plus one drop equal to one drop?

No to the first and yes to the second.

What you don't seem to understand is that the 0.05ml are the measure of a single drop that came from a device made for the specific purpose of creating drops of that volume. Thus, when the second drop is added, they form a larger drop, but are no longer considered a "drop" in the sense of the unit of measurement.

EDIT: Yes, I know I'm not kin hell.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline kin hell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #744 on: December 22, 2011, 12:03:33 AM »
jtp56

do you still claim that a drop is not a unit of measurement?

I am asking politely.

A drop is a unit of measurement.  Given the web site pastes I'll agree as a matter of discussion.


Before I address anything else, does that acknowledgement above mean that you recant your original claim that a drop is not a unit of measurement?

....again I ask politely.



« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 12:40:58 AM by kin hell »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Azdgari

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #745 on: December 22, 2011, 12:03:49 AM »
OK, what is a "brave or honest concession"?

A "brave or honest concession" would involve actually admitting you're wrong, instead of stonewalling and refusing to address the contents of my post.  You know, instead of utterly ignoring them in your reply...which is what you did.

So, I'm going to take that a concession that you know you're wrong, but lack either the bravery or the honesty to acknowledge the fact.

Tell me the point or my misunderstanding of your point.  No slam here; it's just that the foundation of beliefs between us (believers/atheist) is so radical it invites confusion of points.  What is the premise of our difference in beliefs (atheists that is, you may not be an atheist)?"

Theism and atheism have absolutely nothing to do with either your question or my response.  Which makes this yet another confirmation of the fact that you know you're wrong and lack either the bravery or the honesty to admit it.

EDIT:  I see you've admitted you were wrong while I made this post...?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 12:05:29 AM by Azdgari »
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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #746 on: December 22, 2011, 12:05:38 AM »
Again I confess, I posted hastily.  Jesus is my Lord.  Jesus is my God.  I took "my god" from a different (non-believers) perspective.

Clearly not. You took it from your own perspective. We say "your god" because there are literally thousands of gods people believe in. You believe yours to be the only one, hence your reply.

I used to argue that all the time, blah, blah, blah,...."there are as many gods as there are people on the face of the earth".  Or: "god is created in the imagination of man".  Little did I know, God is who He says He is.  There is only one God, and He is in the Bible if you truly want to know Him.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #747 on: December 22, 2011, 12:07:02 AM »
<snip>

I'll take your preaching as an admission that your statement was erroneous.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #748 on: December 22, 2011, 12:12:38 AM »
OK, what is a "brave or honest concession"?

A "brave or honest concession" would involve actually admitting you're wrong, instead of stonewalling and refusing to address the contents of my post.  You know, instead of utterly ignoring them in your reply...which is what you did.

So, I'm going to take that a concession that you know you're wrong, but lack either the bravery or the honesty to acknowledge the fact.


Tell me the point or my misunderstanding of your point.  No slam here; it's just that the foundation of beliefs between us (believers/atheist) is so radical it invites confusion of points.  What is the premise of our difference in beliefs (atheists that is, you may not be an atheist)?"

Theism and atheism have absolutely nothing to do with either your question or my response.  Which makes this yet another confirmation of the fact that you know you're wrong and lack either the bravery or the honesty to admit it.

EDIT:  I see you've admitted you were wrong while I made this post...?

OK, let me turn this around:  I say (Azdgari):  A "brave or honest concession" would involve actually admitting you're wrong, instead of stonewalling and refusing to address the contents of my post.  You know, instead of utterly ignoring them in your reply...which is what you did.  So, I'm going to take that as a concession that you know you're wrong, but lack either the bravery or the honesty to acknowledge the fact.

Whatever your believe has absolutely nothing to do with either your question or my response.  Which makes this yet another confirmation of the fact that you know you're wrong and lack either the bravery or the honesty to admit it.

And this gets us where?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #749 on: December 22, 2011, 12:14:41 AM »
<snip>

I'll take your preaching as an admission that your statement was erroneous.

I'll take your.....whatever.....as admitting you have the blinders on.  Your side is sooooo open minded.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #750 on: December 22, 2011, 12:17:28 AM »
I'll take your.....whatever.....as admitting you have the blinders on.  Your side is sooooo open minded.

I am open minded. You're confusing open mindedness with being a gullible idiot. It's a common error from close minded theists.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #751 on: December 22, 2011, 12:25:15 AM »
And this gets us where?

To the point where everyone agrees you'd tacitly conceded you were wrong, and the topic gets dropped.

Or, to the point where you decide to actually respond to what was in my post.

Choice is yours, and always was.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #752 on: December 22, 2011, 12:34:27 AM »


No. You either not getting it or are messing with me.


You are asserting characteristics of the "God" entity. How can you honestly do so, when no one can agree on them. How do you know the ones you are asserting are true? We aren't talking minor disagreements, like various people who know a person might think of his personality, but 180 degree opposites. They cannot agree on form, powers, likes, dislikes, age, or frankly anything.

Wow!  While I was posting we were kinda on the same wavelength.  God's personality characteristics are in the Bible, they're documented, it requires believing what the Bible says before anyone can understand it.  Therefore lies the conundrum, it depends on what you believe.  Science (or whatever) or the Bible.  I know, I understand science, it has a strong pull.  I read where they may have found the "god" particle, and they discovered somewhere in Italy particles traveling faster than the speed of light (goodbye Einstein).

You are not staying on point. Stop muddying the water. I am stating you assert that the God entity as brought up in this quote:

Quote
I wouldn't say belief alone is my only reason.  I would include my sensory experience.  And yes, since different people have different life experiences, they may perceive different Gods, but I think ultimately it is the same God.

despite being assigned completely diametrical attribute by various people in various religions, only corresponds to the attributes you assign to the entity:

In other words; where's proof the your perception of the alleged Creator of the Universe is described in the bible, and not in the Egyptian Books of the Dead. Even if we go with the Biblegod, is it the one who cannot defeat iron chariot, or the one who can? The God of forgiveness or a jealous God?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #753 on: December 22, 2011, 12:37:42 AM »
There is only one God, and He is in the Bible if you truly want to know Him.

How amusing.

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.